Gavin: I have inside information on Jeffrey Epstein and why the US government is reluctant to be more transparent. And I know this because when I was working in government meetings were not how shall we tell the public, but what shall we tell the public? So often the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being told the truth.

主持人: I think people need to know the truth.

Gavin: So put on your seat belt. I'm going to tell you everything and all senior people in the US government know everything that you and I have discussed here today. So you've been behind the scenes with some of the most successful, richest, most powerful people on planet Earth. But what is it you do, Gavin?

Gavin: So I do protective coverage. You know, any of the ways that wealthy or prominent people might be targeted. For example, the Saudi Arabian government obtained a system which can get into your phone used it on Jeff Bezos. So our work was to figure out how it happened.

主持人: Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone?

Gavin: So, I'll tell you in a second, but we're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say, what we text, and there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone. Do you have any skepticism about that?

主持人: I just have a lot of ignorance to how this whole world works.

Gavin: Lucky you. But all power centers in human history lie. There are some examples of this where we'll start telling the truth about something, but years later, things like cancer causing asbestous and baby powder, 100,000 people dying from heart attacks from opioids. and we'll see it with mass vaccination.

主持人: So, what advice would you give about how to navigate in the world we're living in today to avoid risk threat?

Gavin: I've got some core truths. So, first of all, guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant subscriber milestone on this show, and roughly 69% of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've ever done anything for you, giving you value in any way, it is simply hitting that subscribe button. And it means so much to myself, but also to my team because when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show a little bit better every single week. So, that's a favor I would ask you. And um if you do hit the subscribe button, I won't let you down. And we'll continue to find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. Means the world. And uh yeah, let's do this.

主持人: Gavin, we have a mutual friend and that mutual friend actually sent me a voice note late last night. Here is what the voice note says.

Tony Robbins: I'm calling it this crazy hours. I found out that you're interviewing a dear friend of mine, Gavin Debecker, I think in 2 days. I think on the 13th. He is an extraordinary human being, extraordinary soul. He comes from a a very tough background. But what he's done to move from that background to becoming probably the single greatest security expert in the world. He designed the systems that are used to protect the Supreme Court. I've met him decades ago when there was a threat happening to a former girlfriend of mine and then I was getting threatening letters and he deciphered the letters in micros secondsonds, got the FBI involved and put a stop to it all. It was extraordinary what he did.

主持人: Wow. That was Tony Robbins for anyone that didn't recognize the voice.

Gavin: I recognize.

主持人: the voice. Yeah, it'd be crazy if someone didn't. But it got me incredibly incredibly curious because he said lots of things there that I found fascinating. Um, the first one I'm going to start with is he described you helping him with a personal situation in his life. And I guess this beggets the question, what is it you do for people like Tony Robbins? What is it you do for famous people, for world leaders? What is it you do, Gavin?

Gavin: The main function of my company is anti-assination. So we develop and deploy anti-assination strategies. Under that under assassination which you can consider the worst possible outcome um are lesser outcomes like other kinds of crimes uh destruction of of reputation uh threats that are designed to cause anxiety and fear. We have a division that does assessment of threats and management of threats. We have a division that does actual protective coverage. That's the biggest division, meaning actual physical protectors, fit, young, capable people, not uh retired ex- cops who are overweight and on their second career, but uh you know, people who are who are really trained for this specific field, armored vehicles, modifications to homes, basically everything that fits into the category of preventing uh uh or disrupting uh uh efforts to do tissue damage. So, we're in the business of preventing tissue damage. And who are some of the names that you do this for and have done this for over the years?

Gavin: All of the names that I do it for are uh never spoken by me. So, uh I don't say who clients are and I don't say who they aren't because if I say to you so and so isn't a client, uh that is information that might reveal that somebody else is or something you heard is true or not true. The way I can describe it to you though is to say that it's if you took the 20 people you would assume uh fit into this category or the 50 um most of them are clients.

主持人: I mean according to the internet you sort of reference certain things before because these people have spoken or you know you've been seen in photos.

Gavin: That's right. If a client identifies me or it happens because I testify in a court case or something that's a different animal. It just doesn't come from I view myself as sort of like a a psychiatrist or a doctor. I wouldn't be the one revealing it.

主持人: And some of those names that have been revealed by others are Jeff Bezos, Elizabeth Taylor, Sher Madonna, Barbara Stysand, and many, many, many more. From government officials to royalty, etc., etc. What was Tony referring to when he said that you helped him with a situation with his girlfriend, a threat, found out that it wasn't who people thought they were,

Gavin: right? Surely, he was referring to a case I'll never reveal, and I won't even acknowledge he's a client.

主持人: You won't even say he's a client.

Gavin: I won't say it. if you if you have it from some other source.

主持人: Tony said it.

Gavin: I I understand your interrogation is makes all the sense in the world, but I just don't say it. I don't talk about clients. There's a bunch of reasons, but most of all, just absolute confidentiality. I know it's weird. Apologies.

主持人: But I heard you talk about the Jeff Bezos situation.

Gavin: Uh you heard me talk about uh uh cyber security and and the vulnerability of phones. Uh, and the Bezos situation is a little bit different in that I was involved very publicly in it, but clearly with permission of my client and and organized with my client. Same thing as when I testify in a court case, there's no secrecy about it. I'm doing it, but it doesn't mean that I'll then do it everywhere.

主持人: And and so in that case where you did have Jeff's permission, the the background context was there was a newspaper that was going to publish that he was having an affair with I think his current wife who wasn't his wife at the time, Lauren Sanchez, and you were called upon in that scenario to figure out what was going on and you were able to solve that.

Gavin: Yes.

主持人: What are you able to talk about there?

Gavin: Well, I'll think back to what's already been what's already been public. Uh and it won't be from me. It won't be anything about the client, but it will be about the Saudi Arabian government, which at that time had just obtained a u a system called Pegasus 3, which can get into your phone remotely. It doesn't require a click of any kind, meaning you don't have to acknowledge anything. It can get in. It's called a no click exploit. And it could do everything in your phone from 7,000 miles away that you could do holding the phone in your hand. even if it was off, could turn on the camera, could turn on the microphone. It exists. It's a very real thing made by the Israelis. And the Saudi prince MBS had just gotten it. And he used it on a group of dissident around the world. He also used it on Jeff Bezos. According to the United Nations, according to lots of things that have been public, our work was to a figure it out, figure out how it happened. In those days, I didn't know what Pegasus 3 was. I didn't know what this system was. But the instrumental or perhaps useful thing for you and your audience to know is that there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone if a government wants you. And the reason I say there's no stopping it is that even when Apple puts out a new solution uh which they do an update uh that you know breaks some particular exploit thousands of people around the world immediately start working on the next exploit. So if I said to you here's a phone and we've modified it and it's great Mr. President here you can use this phone for your confidential conversations. Uh in a month it won't work anymore. And so I I'm able to tell clients and friends and now you and your audience there are a lot of things being offered for sale that you know supposedly protect the confidentiality of your phone calls for example or your texts. Nothing will work reliably. There is no solution to that problem that is reliable.

主持人: Nothing.

Gavin: Yeah. There is there devices sold. There's all variety of things. But the reality is that even if something worked, even if I said to you, here's this cool new such and such phone that will protect you, it'll only protect you for a while because there's a constant effort to improve the exploits. And also I have to say people are somewhat reluctant and maybe even lazy. I'll put myself on the list uh and I'll put you on the list without even knowing you. We're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say, what we text. And uh I have a dear friend and client who every text and every email that he sends also goes to his executive assistant and everybody knows it. And what happens is it controls and influences his behavior. So when you send me that off-color joke that I wouldn't want to see on television, he responds differently. He doesn't say, "Oh, that's great." And add another topping line on top of it. He because he knows that his assistant in the other room is seeing that. And so the best we can all do is be be watchful what we say and have no pretense of of privacy or confidentiality because it simply does not exist. Period. The US government got into the phones of all of our allies, the prime ministers, chancellor of West Germany, uh prime minister of England, president of France. This is a game that's going on all the time and uh and privacy is just not part of the new world.

主持人: Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone?

Gavin: Well, the again from what's been public, the founder of Amazon was also the owner of the Washington Post. And the Saudis had killed Kosoji, who was a journalist for the Washington Post. And the Washington Post then started putting out an Arabic edition. That didn't feel good for the Saudis. And then they really went after the I'll call him the head of state. He's the prince but but his father was alive and was actually the head of state but they really went after NBS. I think uh Bezos was a kind of adversary in that regard. Additionally, the Saudi sovereign fund developed an Amazon competitor called something like N or something like that and so they were concerned about that and they were also doing deals with Amazon and so they could get economic advantage by seeing what the various executives are texting to each other. So there was a lot of a lot of moving parts to that. So all these things I've just shared with you were highstakes matters going on around the time that Kosoji was killed and that the western countries of the world were objecting to this assassination team of his going around and and killing people and and getting into their phones.

主持人: In early 2019, Jeff Bezos publicly accused the US tabloid the National Inquirer of attempting to blackmail and extort him by threatening to publish intimate photos including what he described as a nude below the belt selfie of him and his then partner Lauren Sanchez. Bezos wrote a blog post saying AMI emailed his lawyer and security adviser Gavin Debeca's council threatening to publish personal photos and texts unless he and his team publicly stated that the tabloid's coverage of him was not politically motivated.

Gavin: Yeah. What they wanted me to do, the Inquirer and they negotiated with me and my lawyer over this that I was to go public and say two things. I was to say it was not politically motivated and it was not influenced by outside actors i.e. the Saudis and that there was no hacking involved. My question was, why the hell do you want me to say those two things specifically? And my I already knew the answer, of course, because there was outside influence and there was hacking. Their request for me was so strange that we didn't go along with it. Bezos ultimately wrote a medium post talking about it publicly and saying, "Hey, if if if I can't stand up to this, then where is a regular person?" And ultimately those pictures were never published.

Gavin: Yeah. I can't I won't even comment on whether those pictures exist because they were doing a fascinating thing by the way. They were it's sort of like selling you land in in Florida that's marsh land and doesn't exist. They were doing an extortion on a thing they didn't even have. All right. So it's kind of a double crime. It's an extortion and fraud.

主持人: It's interesting. You know, we we start talking here about digital coms and that type of security with everything that's going on at this exact moment in time with all these Epstein files and there's a big conversation, you know, because now we can see 3,000 3 million documents and many of them are emails that people have sent at different times. Some of the most famous people in the world have sent emails to Epstein and now those are all out there in the public to see. I wondered what your take was on all of this stuff. You must be watching this stuff from like through the lens that you've built your career and uh you must have an interesting opinion.

Gavin: Some of it I I don't talk about because I have a fair amount of inside information and I'm just watchful about not getting near the line.

主持人: What do you mean by inside information?

Gavin: I mean information that that I might have gotten from uh I'm characterizing it carefully that I might have gotten from government agencies that are clients or that I might have gotten because uh clients were uh were implicated like I learned today for example this morning on the way over here that I'm in the Epstein files.

主持人: Oh, really?

Gavin: Well, I'll think back to what's already been what's already been public. Uh and it won't be from me. It won't be anything about the client, but it will be about the Saudi Arabian government, which at that time had just obtained a u a system called Pegasus 3, which can get into your phone remotely. It doesn't require a click of any kind, meaning you don't have to acknowledge anything. It can get in. It's called a no click exploit. And it could do everything in your phone from 7,000 miles away that you could do holding the phone in your hand. even if it was off, could turn on the camera, could turn on the microphone. It exists. It's a very real thing made by the Israelis. And the Saudi prince MBS had just gotten it. And he used it on a group of dissident around the world. He also used it on Jeff Bezos. According to the United Nations, according to lots of things that have been public, our work was to a figure it out, figure out how it happened. In those days, I didn't know what Pegasus 3 was. I didn't know what this system was. But the instrumental or perhaps useful thing for you and your audience to know is that there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone if a government wants you. And the reason I say there's no stopping it is that even when Apple puts out a new solution uh which they do an update uh that you know breaks some particular exploit thousands of people around the world immediately start working on the next exploit. So if I said to you here's a phone and we've modified it and it's great Mr. President here you can use this phone for your confidential conversations. Uh in a month it won't work anymore. And so I I'm able to tell clients and friends and now you and your audience there are a lot of things being offered for sale that you know supposedly protect the confidentiality of your phone calls for example or your texts. Nothing will work reliably. There is no solution to that problem that is reliable. Nothing. Yeah. There is there devices sold. There's all variety of things. But the reality is that even if something worked, even if I said to you, here's this cool new such and such phone that will protect you, it'll only protect you for a while because there's a constant effort to improve the exploits. And also I have to say people are somewhat reluctant and maybe even lazy. I'll put myself on the list uh and I'll put you on the list without even knowing you. We're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say, what we text. And uh I have a dear friend and client who every text and every email that he sends also goes to his executive assistant and everybody knows it. And what happens is it controls and influences his behavior. So when you send me that off-color joke that I wouldn't want to see on television, he responds differently. He doesn't say, "Oh, that's great." And add another topping line on top of it. He because he knows that his assistant in the other room is seeing that. And so the best we can all do is be be watchful what we say and have no pretense of of privacy or confidentiality because it simply does not exist. Period. The US government got into the phones of all of our allies, the prime ministers, chancellor of West Germany, uh prime minister of England, president of France. This is a game that's going on all the time and uh and privacy is just not part of the new world. Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone? Well, the again from what's been public, the founder of Amazon was also the owner of the Washington Post. And the Saudis had killed Kosoji, who was a journalist for the Washington Post. And the Washington Post then started putting out an Arabic edition. That didn't feel good for the Saudis. And then they really went after the I'll call him the head of state. He's the prince but but his father was alive and was actually the head of state but they really went after NBS. I think uh Bezos was a kind of adversary in that regard. Additionally, the Saudi sovereign fund developed an Amazon competitor called something like N or something like that and so they were concerned about that and they were also doing deals with Amazon and so they could get economic advantage by seeing what the various executives are texting to each other. So there was a lot of a lot of moving parts to that. So all these things I've just shared with you were highstakes matters going on around the time that Kosoji was killed and that the western countries of the world were objecting to this assassination team of his going around and and killing people and and getting into their phones. In early 2019, Jeff Bezos publicly accused the US tabloid the National Inquirer of attempting to blackmail and extort him by threatening to publish intimate photos including what he described as a nude below the belt selfie of him and his then partner Lauren Sanchez. Bezos wrote a blog post saying AMI emailed his lawyer and security adviser Gavin Debeca's council threatening to publish personal photos and texts unless he and his team publicly stated that the tabloid's coverage of him was not politically motivated. Yeah. What they wanted me to do, the Inquirer and they negotiated with me and my lawyer over this that I was to go public and say two things. I was to say it was not politically motivated and it was not influenced by outside actors i.e. the Saudis and that there was no hacking involved. My question was, why the hell do you want me to say those two things specifically? And my I already knew the answer, of course, because there was outside influence and there was hacking. Their request for me was so strange that we didn't go along with it. Bezos ultimately wrote a medium post talking about it publicly and saying, "Hey, if if if I can't stand up to this, then where is a regular person?" And ultimately those pictures were never published. Yeah. I can't I won't even comment on whether those pictures exist because they were doing a fascinating thing by the way. They were it's sort of like selling you land in in Florida that's marsh land and doesn't exist. They were doing an extortion on a thing they didn't even have. All right. So it's kind of a double crime. It's an extortion and fraud. It's interesting. You know, we we start talking here about digital coms and that type of security with everything that's going on at this exact moment in time with all these Epstein files and there's a big conversation, you know, because now we can see 3,000 3 million documents and many of them are emails that people have sent at different times. Some of the most famous people in the world have sent emails to Epstein and now those are all out there in the public to see. I wondered what your take was on all of this stuff. You must be watching this stuff from like through the lens that you've built your career and uh you must have an interesting opinion. Some of it I I don't talk about because I have a fair amount of inside information and I'm just watchful about not getting near the line. What do you mean by inside information? I mean information that that I might have gotten from uh I'm characterizing it carefully that I might have gotten from government agencies that are clients or that I might have gotten because uh clients were uh were implicated like I learned today for example this morning on the way over here that I'm in the Epstein files. Oh, really? And here's the way I'm in there is that someone sent Epstein an article that I wrote called Fooling Ourselves into War. And so uh somebody sent that uh article which is an article I really like by the way uh published in in Huffington Post at the time and and um they sent that to Epstein. So that's an example of being in the Epstein files and yet obviously never having met Epstein. But I have a few clients who and friends who the Epstein group made approaches on and failed. Meaning they tried to get them and failed. I'll give you one story without naming the person, of course. He goes to meet with Epstein in New York to ask for money for a charity. And and Epste is perceived as this big billionaire, which he was not, by the way. I'll tell you in a second. And Epste is in a robe. And they're across the desk just like you and I are. And Epstein says, "Hey, um, they're finishing the meeting." He says, "Hey, I'm going to get a massage." Hence my robe. Do you want to get a massage? And through the hallway, my friend can see a massage table and a room and a very cute girl who's the massage therapist, right? Dressed like a massage therapist. And so he happened to say no. In fact, interestingly, he happens to not like massage, which is itself, you know, a lot of people would say yes and might even think it would improve my relationship with this guy, Jeffrey Epstein, who I perceive as this rich guy that I'm trying to get money from my charity. Um, had that happened, what a different world for that person. What a different life. Because in that room is cameras and then eventually audio. It didn't start off with audio, but audio was added later. And then you're getting a hand job, if I'm allowed to say hand job, from somebody who you don't even think about their age, but turns out to be 17, and you are in a world of trouble for the rest of your life. And that's a big piece of what was going on with Epstein with cameras in that apartment in New York and eventually audio cameras and eventually audio at the island. My take on it uh and certainly my public take is that there was a profound uh uh blackmail operation going on to the benefit of probably more than one government, but at least one government. And when I said a moment ago he wasn't a billionaire, he wasn't a billionaire. For one thing, the his earning path is highly suspect. I'll first tell you what he was. What he was is a construct. He's a created construct. Money, wealth, private jet, private island, fun, not married, young girls, lots of things. So, he was a construct. the money uh $500 million of money came from Les Wexner who's a wealthy guy who uh owns or owned I don't know what he's doing now uh Victoria's Secret notator to the state of Israel and $500 million was transferred to Epstein along with power of attorney to use it and invest it in the ways he saw fit. Quite an unusual uh you know I'm mildly wealthy but I'm not sending you $500 million. I'll tell you that the idea that you're that you're doing this is itself extraordinary, but it was probably the funding mechanism for this construct. While it's a real name, uh, Jeffrey Epstein and he has a real birth certificate and grew up in a real way, the picture that is presented to the world is not authentic. It is not accurate to who he was. And the more you dig into this story, which of course people are doing so much now because of these uh 3 million uh documents so far and videos by the way and photographs, there's a lot of material there. The uh it's very interesting to people right now and and and more to be learned. But you know what was actually going on? Why in the world would anybody say, "Well, there are national security implications to some of this content. That's why some things are redacted." What would that be? Why would the prosecutor who prosecuted him in Florida and provided one of the most unusual plea bargain deals in world history and certainly unique in American history which is imagine I've got you I'm a US attorney I've got you on some crime and you say okay I'm going to plead guilty I'm going to serve my time but please let my accountant go and please don't prosecute my wife because all she did was deliver the stuff and she didn't wasn't involved in anything and so Those are called unindicted co-conspirators. So I make a deal with you and I say, "Okay, you go to jail for the 8 months and we will leave the unindicted co-conspirators unindicted. We won't prosecute your wife, your son, your your accountant or what have you." That's a very normal process. It's it's a it's a bargaining process, basically. However, in the Epstein case, the US attorney gave him a deal that said uh that we would not prosecute unnamed co-conspirators. Holy Who's that? Who's unnamed co-conspirators? Unnamed co-conspirators could be 50 people. It could be 75 people. The guy who gave that sweetheart deal became the secretary of labor. He was at that time the US attorney for for Florida. He was asked, "Why did you give that sweetheart deal?" Because the deal is ridiculous. Unnamed co-conspirators will be exempt from prosecution. And and he said, "I was told he belonged to intelligence." and then he had to resign because of this. There was a lot going on with with with Epstein uh the person who I mean there's so much of this but the person who uh sort of brought Epstein into the world of power and got him his job at I think Morgan Stanley I could have that wrong but one of those big finance companies was William Bar's father. William Bar was the attorney general who was the US attorney general when Epstein was killed or died in prison depending on your choice of of reality. So there's so much there but I won't be the first guest Steven that you've had uh that says that um it was an intelligence operation. Why the US government is reluctant to be more uh transparent? Some of it is national security. Some of it is, let's imagine an ally of ours, uh, is involved in in that operation. So, there's a reluctance and there's a question. It's a little bit like UFOs. Could the public handle it is the question that's always asked in these cases. Meaning, could the public handle it if, for example, the UK was running an intelligence operation inside the United States to control senators and congressmen and powerful executives and powerful figures and scientists? Could we handle it? Could the US public handle it? My take personally, absolutely. Yes.

主持人: So, you believe that he was an intelligence asset and it sounds like you believe he was an intelligence asset potentially by a US ally?

Gavin: Yes.

主持人: So, who is that ally?

Gavin: Israel.

主持人: You believe that Epstein was an Israel intelligence asset?

Gavin: Yes. Yes, I do. And uh and Glain Maxwell, just for additional background, but everybody can find it. Her father was an Israeli intelligent asset who was so revered. His funeral ceremony was held in Israel, was attended by the prime minister, by I think the last four or five, by every living head of Mossad attended. And there were words used in eulogies like he did things for Israel that uh the world will never know about. There's a a lot of good connection there and a lot of good connective tissue. Um, some of which I've shared with you because it's public and some of which I'm not sharing, but that is uh that is indeed what I believe. Yes. And

主持人: not just me, by the way. I you might already be there. And you've certainly had another guest sit here and and uh former CIA guy uh Kira Cow, how do you say his last name?

Gavin: Yeah.

主持人: Uh am I close to

Gavin: You're close. It's closer than I would get.

主持人: Okay, good. And he was point blank in saying Israel. So there's no there's no direct evidence. But what people are essentially doing is putting the pieces together to make a picture.

Gavin: There is direct evidence. There's just not direct evidence I'm sharing at this moment. But there's the there's plenty of evidence that that has been public already, some of which I've shared. I mean, I could I could do it for 40 minutes, but everybody can just go to chat GPT. And you know, if you ask Chad GPT, make the best case for this. A good thing for viewers to remember. Make the best case for dot dot dot whatever it is. If you ask the first answer you get if you ask a straight question will always be the official narrative.

主持人: I've done exactly that because you said it. I I asked Chi make the best case for Epstein being an Israel spy. Here is what it said. The case that Jeffrey Epste functioned as an Israeli intelligence asset rest on a pattern alignment rather than direct proof. He ran a sexual sexual compromise operation resembling known intelligence compromat tradecraft.

Gavin: Compromat. Yeah, like it's a Russian word that means we compromise you.

主持人: Had wealth and access far beyond his formal career and operated with unusual legal protection for years. His close partnership with Gla Maxwell, whose father had documented intelligence ties fuel suspicion, as does reporting by journalists who say Epstein's activities were discussed in intelligence adjacent circles. The cameras and the microphones hidden in his apartment and his home. How do we know they were there and why?

Gavin: Well, how I know they were there is a little bit different from how everybody knows they were there. And I don't know enough about the entire history of the FBI piece, but I'll tell you a funny part of the FBI piece. When they went to execute a search warrant at that apartment after his more recent arrest, they found and even photographed a bunch of CDROMs or discs of some kind that were labeled, but they didn't take them. They said, "We'll get a warrant and we'll be back for those." and they came back after a mere six days and it was all gone. So where it is, I don't know. Does the US government have it? Does somebody else have it? I just don't know the answer. But I know from very direct information regarding the island and the apartment. I don't know about New Mexico. I just don't happen to know. Another house that he owned that there were cameras and then eventually audio. Audio was added. Oh, also testimony, by the way, pardon me. testimony from girls who said girls who worked there and visited there a lot who said that in a small room near to the right of the front door was a whole thing of videos where the recording was done.

主持人: And can you explain to me why recording videos and audio of people getting those kinds of uh doing those kinds of things would be a useful asset for this foreign adversary to have.

Gavin: Sure. Uh, you know, blackmail is not always done by calling you up and saying, um, you know, hey, Stephen, I'm going to hurt you in the following way if you don't do A, B, or C. The other version is is far better, which there's is even alluded to in some of the now released material, which is he calls and he says, "Stephen, I've got terrible news. Do you remember you had that massage from Cindy? You know that girl, Cindy?" "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember." Well, she recorded something. She had something in her bag. She made a recording. And I got worse news. Stephen, the girl's 16 and a half. And now, by the way, you are stomach drops, diarrhea. You are in a world of stress right now just hearing that. And he, instead of being your blackmailer, becomes your rescuer. He says, "I can handle it. I can handle it. I can handle it. She's got the recordings. I don't know where they are, but I can handle it. I can handle it. I can handle it. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry." And he owns you now. forever. If you were involved in a naked experience with someone who's underage, and there's a video of it and audio of it as well, you will do anything that you are asked to do that is within reason. Very few people would have the character and the stamina to do what you describe Bezos doing, which is that he wrote a public letter saying, "A very unusual thing happened to me the other day. I'm being blackmailed by the National Enquirer." and here's what they said. That's very, very rare. And so, you know, a senator, a congressman, he owned a lot of people. Do you have any skepticism about that?

主持人: I don't have skepticism. I just have a lot of ignorance to how this whole world works.

Gavin: Lucky you.

主持人: And I just have a lot of ignorance to like, you know, because you hear about these things in almost like movies. And uh it appears that we're all kind of witnessing something we might have regulated just to the movies happened before our eyes. And even when you know I saw some of the emails coming up on my feed of things that Epstein had emailed people, he seemed to be continually inviting people to hang out with him in a way that is quite atypical. Now maybe I'm just an introvert, but I'm not. He he was like aggressive in his coms to people saying, "Come and hang out with me. I'm doing this thing at this dinner party. Come to my island. Are you in the area?" and he was succeeding in getting a lot of people to come and visit his his homes and his island. And yeah, it's uh

Gavin: by the way, Stephen, in the circumstance you are in today, you might well have heard from from Jeffrey Epstein. You might well have had somebody who knows you who says, "Hey, there's this guy in New York. Loves your show. Uh just terrific." And and all of a sudden, you're getting that invitation. And you're getting that invitation through someone you know and kind of like

主持人: like Joe Rogan did.

Gavin: I don't know. But like so many people. Well, Joe Rogan said it.

主持人: Oh, if he's been public about it, I'm just not going to be the one to say it, but I I got it.

Gavin: Oh, okay. Yeah. Joe Rogan publicly la last week said that, and it's in the files, that a former guest, I think it was Lawrence Krauss of his show, invited him to come and meet Jeffrey Epstein. And the emails show that Jeffrey Epstein was trying to get Lawrence to bring Joe Rogan in. Joe Rogan said like absolutely abs well this what Joe Rogan's said absolutely not,

主持人: right?

Gavin: And was creeped out about it and never went and was never involved. Well, the point I was just making is that in your present circumstance with the, you know, enormous audience and and the reach of this show and and all your work, the small videos, etc. Um, of course you're a terrific person because now I can call you up and say, uh, hey, will you have this person on? Or I can say, hey, will you be really skeptical about this topic and will you say, I don't believe it. And will you say, I think it's wrong or will you say, I think it's anti-semitism or will you will you say such and such? And brother, you will. the the moment where I started to, you know, really understand the blackmail angle um was when I started reading some of the particular emails that Epstein had sent to himself.

主持人: One in particular where he sent himself an email regarding Bill Gates. He's alleging that Bill Gates has slept with He's sending himself an email.

Gavin: Yes.

主持人: Alleging that Bill Gates has slept with someone, some some Russian prostitute, and that he got an STD, an extrammarital affair, all of these allegations. And when I read that email, um, then I thought, oh, you know, he he was a black mailer.

Gavin: He was definitely a black mailer and he's collected all these rich and famous people and he has them in his pocket now.

主持人: Just to close off then on this uh point of Epstein before we move on, you said they they've released some of the files and you said they hadn't released other files. Yes. And you have implied that was because they basically can't release these other files necessarily.

Gavin: Well, I don't I don't know what I think more is coming. I think more will be released, but there are certainly files, including files even right now, even yesterday, though there's a law. Uh, as you may know, Congress voted for a law to release everything unredacted. Um, there's still a lot of redacted stuff. So, there's more to come. And, uh, will some be redacted? Sure. Is anybody going to sit here like I did today and say, "Hi, I'm the secretary of blah blah blah, and let me just tell you what was really going on. Uh, you know, I'm the head of the CIA, and let me tell you what was really going on." Not likely.

主持人: But Trump knows. He knows who Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein really was.

Gavin: I would say all senior people in the US government and and many many people in general know everything that you and I have discussed here today.

主持人: No secret. By the way, what do you think? Let's imagine somebody came forward and said this country described as our greatest ally. I would say our greatest ally is the UK uh based on on history. But, uh, Israel is an important ally in the Middle East and it's a it's a democracy and it's more of a western government. I get it. Um, but what do you think? The the the country comes out and somebody officially says, "Okay, let me tell you what was going on." Do you think the American public can handle it?

主持人: I think they either way now deserve to know the truth. Whether they can handle it or not is probably secondary to whether they I think people need to know the truth. We've I think like the problem is people have been like partially traumatized by all of this stuff and so now I think the remedy is full transparency.

Gavin: I agree and by the way uh this is close uh because we we got a lot of information whereas you know 5 weeks ago or or eight weeks ago people were saying oh there's nothing more that's it that's all there is. I mean, this is a big step and I think it's a big step as big a step toward transparency as uh probably as I've seen in my lifetime by a government. The exception would be if it's not a government what Elon did after buying Twitter, the release of the Twitter files. That was a very impressive thing of letting three journalists come in and just go through everything. I think it would be awesome if the US government ever, Governments don't do this very often, but if they ever said, "Okay, everybody, put on your seat belt. I'm going to tell you exactly what happened with the JFK assassination or exactly what happened with the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Senator Robert F. Kennedy, when he ran for president." There are some examples of this in US history where it feels like after about 25 years, we'll start telling the truth about something. 50 years ago, Johnson and Johnson went to uh to the FDA and they said, "Look, our baby powder, you know, that stuff that you put on the baby and you breathe and the mother breathes. Well, it's got asbestous in it and it causes cancer." And the FDA said, "Well, thanks for bringing this to our attention. We'll begin to study how much asbestous is an allowable amount." Now, they never considered zero, which is what I'd want on my baby or you'd want on your baby. and they began to study and then they studied for a while and they studied for a while and lo and behold 40 years had gone by and they hadn't come out with a ruling to say there shouldn't be any asbestous in in Johnson and Johnson baby powder when did they come out with that ruling by the way last year end of 2024 after 52 years. So at the beginning the government is saying asbestous no what are you talking about Agent Orange the same story Agent Orange material used in Vietnam for defoliation uh hurt people killed people and caused birth defects in their kids including American soldiers lots of them the government knew it they had tested it on 40 lab mice and lab mice don't have a good life generally anyway they don't have good life expectancy but in this case 38 died within 5 days what the government do with that information? Oh, put that in a top secret file and get rid of that. And then it sits for a long, long time and the Institute of Medicine says, "Agent Orange hurting people. What are you talking about?" No. And they lie and they lie and they lie and then finally 20 25 years later, okay, yeah, sorry, we were wrong. It does it does cause birth defects. You see that same story with uh breast implants, silicone breast implants. You see that same story with uh baby formula uh with baby food which has arsenic in it. I don't want any arsenic in baby food but deny deny deny deny and we'll see it with mass vaccination because after some years there will be okay yes there is a good chance that it causes myocarditis already been admitted by the way pericarditis uh cancer in young people it it was a bad product sorry but they won't do it a year away from a thing and they obviously as we can see every day they won't do it five years away it's very easy to see and to locate when the US government or any power center. This is I'm an American. I'm all for America. But all power centers in human history uh lie. Knowing that they are lying does not tell you the truth, however. Meaning knowing that Oswald did not act alone as a shooter from the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository, if he was a shooter at all. Knowing that does not tell you who was the shooter. So often the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being told the truth. When I grew up, I felt I feel like I was very naive to the nature of how the world really operates. And the more I've done podcasts and frankly, you know, you you you get invited to interesting things and you meet like rich people and famous people and billionaires. And I went to Davos this year, which I think people think makes me some kind of like I don't know, I wasn't if there was if the Illuminati at Davos, they didn't invite me into that room. But I got to like I got to see like really powerful people and world leaders and all those kinds of things. And I've sat here and interviewed so many CIA spies and I've learned that there are things going on out of plain sight. So the version of reality that the average person has as they go through their life, how has the work you've done over the last several decades of your career shifted your belief about the version of reality that actually exists? Like how how are they different?

Gavin: So I I can I can answer it easily because I was just like you. I would say I was naive. And in fact, by the way, I want to quickly acknowledge that I'm probably naive today, even with what you've heard, because there may be a level above the level above the level above that that I'm not seeing or I'm choosing not to see. I can tell you the exact evolution for me, not dissimilar to you. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I believe the courts will always come up with a fair decision. I believe that the IRS will only collect uh money and destroy people with good reason, and they won't do it with bad reason. I believed everything and the a lot of it right up until co by the way right up until seeing what went on with both mass vaccination and the the mass control through fear here's what I want to tell you I've learned it's not that um unusual I think I think it's easy to to embrace which is that are human beings the same as they were a thousand years ago are human beings the same as they were in Caesar's time what did Caesar do by the way pick a a Roman emperor. Whatever the they wanted to do, they had sex with who and what they wanted. 8 years old, 10 years old, boy, girl, whatever it may be. Even in King Farooq's time in Egypt, one of the last kings of of Egypt, if you were a house guest, they'd say to you, you know what? We're going to have dinner at 6. We can send somebody to your room. Do you want a young boy or a young girl? No shame to it. No problem whatsoever. The rich and powerful people like the ones you were describing at Davos often go from, "I already have all the money. I've already had all the fame. I've already had all the influence. What do I want to do now?" And sometimes they want to do forbidden things. Have an affair. Keep a girl in an apartment. These are easy, right? Uh, cheat on my wife. These are easy still. 14-year-old girl. Uh-oh. Not getting so easy anymore, but I've done all the other stuff. And that's what the Epstein piece appeals to, which is the forbidden. I want to be very concise in in answering this question about what changed uh in terms of my view, how I've gotten, you know, started where I started. First of all, I worked in government, worked in the Reagan administration. I lied. I did things that were lies that were deceitful several times in my career. Uh I can give you examples in a minute if you want, but uh you know to to make a prosecution work. I I reached a bit uh to get somebody some bad guy who was trying to kill a client uh you know uh prosecuted or or in in custody for a longer period of time. Um I was in many meetings where the questions were this thing happened not how shall we tell the public but what shall we tell the public? How shall we spin this thing? This is the norm in every corporate uh boardroom in America. It's not, oh, there's there's a cancer causing asbestous in the baby powder. I guess we better let everybody know. That's not the meeting. The meeting is, let's notify the FDA and say it's under study. And so if we get asked, we'll get get through this thing. Who goes to jail, by the way, in these corporations for the they do, opioids, etc. My god, a 100,000 people dying from heart attacks from from a pain pill, for example. Uh Vio for God's sake. Uh the I mean it's it's unbelievable and nobody gets in trouble, right? Companies are fined. Do you know what the fines mean to these companies? In in that new book I gave you, Forbidden Facts, I I lay out what all the pharma companies have been fined criminally, what it cost them and what they made nonetheless, right? And of course they made the right decision because financially they they did very well. But I want to get to the concise part. Look at world history as a pie chart, right? The entire thing is tyranny as a government method, as a control method. Just a tiny sliver is uh representative democracy. A little bit starting in Greece, uh Western Europe, the United States, tiny sliver. So our norm, Stephen, is tyranny. That is the norm for human beings. And what happens to that tiny sliver that I'm describing? That tiny sliver always moves toward totalitarianism.

主持人: What does that mean? It means that the the representative democracy we have let's say in the UK which is pretty stressed right now in terms of of freedom of speech or in the United States moves toward totalitarianism in that it says it starts with we pass a law and if you know the the US constitution says if there isn't a law prohibiting it you can do it and for government it says if there isn't a law allowing it you cannot do it that's the US constitute itution. That's the US method. Well, look what it's become. A law gets passed and then regulators, unelected officials, go nuts on interpreting that law the way they want to and applying it the way they want to. And so the the it moves toward totalitarianism. 40,000 new laws passed in the United States every year. How many rescended? Almost none.

主持人: So where are we now? here in the United States where we both asked that or in the UK where are we in the arc of history because it kind of does seem to move in sort of cycles

Gavin: now the we if you're talking about where are we now like western society or the US empire in decline and first of all is it an empire obviously right we have 760 military bases overseas 760 we have a larger budget for what we call defense now called war since Trump has changed the name to Department of War more accurately. Um, we have a larger budget than every other country in the world combined for military spending. How many overseas bases does China have? I think it's one. Now, I'm not saying China's all lovely. I'm just saying they have a different method. They have a method closer to what we had in the 60s, which was to come in with with beneficial help. We'll redo your roads, etc., etc. So, we're an empire and we're an empire in decline. And a moment ago when I said that that tyranny is the normal state of affairs for uh how people are governed. How is it exercised? Through fear. Always through fear. Fear is the method that causes division. And division is the fuel of power. Meaning you want the population to be divided. You want the left and the right. You want the the uh Trumpers and the and the and the Democrats and the forever Trumpers and the never Trumpers. Division is the fuel that all world leaders relish. I give you the example in the cleanest terms. The king and the queen look over the castle wall and when they see their subjects fighting, they high-five each other because if the if they're fighting with each other, they're not coming over the wall. And there's always a wall. And but if they're not fighting with each other, that's a big problem because then they're coming over the wall because everybody knows in their heart, wait a minute, these are living in absolute luxury while I don't I can't afford to feed my kids. They their their motorcades and today and in those days they're, you know, beautiful ornate uh wagons pulled by by a bunch of horses go by and splatter mud on me in the street. What really is the difference? I mean, royalty is such a scam.

主持人: So, what happens to the Western world if we're in a declining empire?

Gavin: I give you the the optimistic version because I have a dear friend happens to live in Cape Town who helps me with this sometimes because like anybody when I look a lot at uh at at what happens, I can get discouraged. I can get cynical. It's not a good place to live. I think uh Tony maybe even he said it on your show Tony Robbins which is uh you know that what you focus on will determine uh the quality of your life. So I can focus on the pharma companies and all the they're doing or I can focus on on the beauty of of nature and spend more time in nature and spend more time with my kids etc. So my optimistic answer which comes from a dear friend Nick Hudson in in Cape Town is that even if empires decay and and social decay is is outside this studio. It's in London. It's in New York. It's in Los Angeles. It's in Seattle. It's in Portland. It's unavoidable. Take a drive in Los Angeles. You know it. Every freeway on-ramp, not some. Every single one of them has tents underneath it with people living there. That is not good news. And so, but here's the good news part of it. The optimistic part of it is that survival and thriving always prevails and it does not rely on these systems. Meaning, you are who you are as a in the spiritual sense or or in the scientific sense, whatever way you want to look at yourself as a as a collection of energy that doesn't need that body by the way, right? The energy doesn't go anywhere when that body is done. Uh meaning it's the energy is still there. It's not destructible. And uh so it's indestructible. So um you are this this being this awareness this consciousness. And if around us when we go outside here today all the buildings are gone and and social decay has accelerated are we going to be okay? And the answer is yes. What happens now? We're living in the forest and now I say Stephen you're pretty good at carpentry right? Come join us. And you say you're good at planting sweet potatoes. We need some of that. Let's do that. and small populations of people begin again, commence again, even after nuclear war, after a variety of things. And I know it's crazy to some people, but I take my my hope and my optimism from that fact, which is that it doesn't rely upon the electricity working. It doesn't rely upon the plumbing working and the sewage system working. And eventually there's enough of the earth, natural earth, for us to do what has happened before, which is start again. Give you a very fast aspect of this. Thousand years ago, there's a thousand little governments. There's shoguns in Japan. There's villages. There's a guy has 300 people and he's the chief. Then it becomes what it was in your life and my life, which is about 190 countries. But those 190 countries are really about five power centers, right? There's NATO, there's there's Brexit, there's the the oil producing countries. And eventually that five power centers will come to two power centers. The West, US, and China is my prediction, but it'll be somebody else's prediction. Can do it differently. And then those two are standing in a room together. And one has to kill the other. That's the course of history. That's how it goes. That's how it goes in every geographical area in history, which is we've got 30 villages and if I can find your village, we'll take the women, we'll take the children, and we'll kill the men. And it's just a matter of math. How many of there are of you and how many are there of of our group? It's I think it's somewhat inconceivable especially for people of my generation to think that the US is at all at some point going to be at war with China because we've never you know we never experienced a world war but because the stakes are now so high with nuclear weapons a war theoretically wouldn't be like previous wars it would be catastrophic.

主持人: So it's it's unimaginable. Some people say now nuclear wars have sorry nuclear weapons have now stopped us from getting into World War II as easily and therefore it won't happen.

Gavin: Yes. Some people believe in that general concept of mutually assured destruction which is that neither side will will do it. But you said it's almost impossible for you to imagine or words to that effect. Um uh I want to help you uh with that imagining and it goes like this. We are currently at war with Russia. We are not supporting the the war in Ukraine only. We are at war with Russia because we are providing satellite information, electronic warfare strategies, drone strategies, providing targeting information, and that is war today. That is war. War is not just the guys on the battlefield with rifles. That's the low-end element. The high-end element is supersonic missiles, which Russia has, and the high-end element is intel and satellite technology. and the wide variety of things that are going on, some of which aren't even in the news, by the way, that go on in Russia and they say, "Oh shit." Uh, or that go on in Ukraine and they say, "Oh the Russians have figured out that thing." But the US is so far beyond other countries in the world in terms of technology. And so that is war with Russia. And you could say that our war with North Vietnam was war with China. But now there's just no question about it. So that was a long answer, Stephen, to say I want to get you your imagination closer. We're already at war with Russia.

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主持人: Speaking of crazy weapons, I was um I was reading about a story where you did a a tour with the CIA and they showed you a mechanical dragonfly.

Gavin: Yeah.

主持人: With a battery. What What did they show you?

Gavin: Well, I've given a I've had a lot to do with with the agency that's been that's been public over the years. And I was giving a talk and then afterwards they took me on a tour to a CIA museum. They showed me a lot of things. Oh, here's the helmet that was worn by that pilot who was shot down over Russia named Powers. all kinds of interesting memorabilia and one of them was a little dragonfly the size of a dragonfly and it was um mechanical and I looked at it real closely and thought wow that that's really fantastic it's very interesting and he said you don't have any questions at all I said no I mean I I get it and he said why don't you ask me when it was built U and I said okay when was it built 1967 in 1967 before we had any miniaturaturized electronics or motoriis ization. The CIA had built that little thing and uh and it was a a little camera that would fly around in here as a dragonfly and then uh and then you know fly home and I don't know how many pictures it held but it's an interesting piece I want to share with you about AI which is people wonder you know how sophisticated is AI and and where is it my belief is that everything we have access to like AI we probably have something that the US intelligence had 10 years ago. We're probably dealing with something quite old already.

主持人: I'm just looking at the a picture of this dragon.

Gavin: Oh, I didn't even know it was public.

主持人: Um, this

Gavin: that's the There he is.

主持人: This little thing here.

Gavin: Yeah.

主持人: And you know, this was made, as you say, what 50 years ago. So, one can only imagine the type of technology they have now.

Gavin: Oh, of course.

主持人: I mean, they pro they don't even need to fly a dragonfly in because we have all these electronic devices.

Gavin: Of course, they can they can turn on our devices. probably your watch if it's a an Apple watch but certainly your phone uh and u yeah uh the we are participating in I won't even call it an experiment but a process that you read 1984 I'm sure and most of your audience did I was very heartened during the beginning of co that 1984 became the 17th bestselling book in the world in the English language

主持人: telling me ah people are paying attention they see that what they're experiencing here has a degree of 1984 to it. I think all science fiction stories come true. I really do. I see it time after time. What advice would you give to my listeners about how to navigate in the world we're living in today, you know, to avoid risk, threat, you know, whether that's of our soft tissue as you said or just with our privacy or lives generally. Like where does the advice start? You said you raised 10 kids.

Gavin: Yeah.

主持人: What advice are you giving to your 10 kids?

Gavin: Uh well they they all know that their dad is a big proponent uh and and my first book which is still a a very uh big book the gift of fear that book is I think still the bestselling book in the world on violence after 25 years and um that book is all about intuition and personal responsibility. So the very first thing I would say to your listeners, to you to remind myself as well is that human beings did not get the biggest claws or the biggest teeth or the biggest muscles. We got the biggest brains relative to our size. And the nuclear defense system that all human beings have is intuition. Much different from logic. Intuition, the root of it, by the way, I learned when I was writing that book, is in tear, which means to guard and to protect. So intuition when you think about it, oh, I just have a feeling I should go back to the apartment and doublech checkck such and such. Did I leave the fire on on the pot? And you go back and you open the the door and you didn't leave the fire on the pot, but something else will always be going on that makes you glad you came back. I believe that intuition is always right in at least two ways. One, it always has your best interest at heart. It's not with you. It's giving you real information that's valuable. And and number two, uh it's always based on something. And so our journey is to figure out when I have an intuitive feeling like do this show with you, who knows why, but when I have that intuitive feeling, and by the way, I don't do most shows. I don't know what the reason is. I don't know what it'll be. I mean, I can make up one with logic, right? I like that guy. I learned a lot from his shows. I can create a case. I can make a case for anything. But if it's just based on what I feel and everything you've succeeded at and accomplished was based on what you felt. It was based on intuition. In America, in the West, we think we're doing it by logic, right? I do a big PowerPoint presentation and I say to the board, "Here's the reason. Here's why, and here's the percentages." And they say, "Oh, good." The board at corporations in America would actually prefer that I use logic even if I'm wrong instead of using intuition even if I'm right. So when I say to you, no, I just think it's the right thing to do. I I think it'd be smart. I think it'll be it'll really work out like something like Amazon Prime that people opposed and then it's like 175 million people just in America are using it. Big success. Intuitive process, not a not a logic process. Logic is weak and plotting. Logic does A B C D. Intuition does A to Z instantly. And you don't know why. It's knowing without knowing why. I don't feel good about that person. I'm I'm gonna back I I said I was going to make this business deal. I'm backing out of it. I said I was going to show up to that thing. I'm calling and cancelling. And by the way, cancelling one of my favorite things. I recommend it to everybody. I recommend cancelling and postponing to everybody I know. You are not obligated to keep your plans. You made a plan 3 months ago and you don't know who you'll even be or if you or them or anybody will even be alive 3 months from now. There's nothing wrong with cancelling. Now I don't do it rudely by the way but just to finish on you know sort of what your listen your your viewers uh and listeners can do is that is to really fall in love with intuition and to learn the way you communicate with yourself. The there's signals from intuition. Curiosity you just wonder something. Suspicion worry can even be a signal of intuition. Um but the biggest one is true fear. When you feel true fearh I don't want to do this. I wanted to ask you a question about this. I met with Magnus Carlson who is the arguably the best chess player in the world. And I met with him after spending some time in Cape Town writing about gut instinct and intuition, all these kinds of things. And one of the things that I learned through my writing was that in in many cases when someone has really well-trained intuition, their first thought is the right thought. And actually, if you give them longer to think about the problem, they make a worse decision. So when I met Magnus Carlson as a as the number one chess player in the world backstage, we were both on stage together. I said to him, I said, "Listen, I got a question to ask you. Do you basically now just run off intuition or do you think?" And he said, "My first thought is nearly always right." So actually, I spend the other time just confirming the first sort of intuition that I had. And actually, I was telling him about a dodgeball game where they got dodgeball players, professional dodgeball players, to look at a frozen image of a dodgeball game and said, "Where would you throw the ball?"

主持人: And when they gave them little time to decide, they made a better decision. When they just went with their first gut instinct, they made a better decision. They unfroze it and it was the right throw. If they gave them longer,

Gavin: they made the worst decision. And the the sort of caveat and I guess the question for you is it appeared to me that you almost have to train the intuition. Like areas in our life where we've got multiple reps and pattern recognition, our intuition is valuable. But then in other areas of our life where we haven't trained the muscle yet, we can make bad decisions. One such example would just be like the first time you start hiring people.

主持人: You don't have a trained intuition yet. So you go, "Yeah, she seems nice." But then you get I'm probably been hiring thousands of people for 15 years now and I get you know I get an intuition. So do you have to train your intuition?

Gavin: Well I think it happens automatically as you as you live life that new distinctions are added. Um but I also believe that uh it is a natural resource. I could think of it in a spiritual sense. It's very hard to figure out why we feel a certain way and we do what what Magnus said which is we get our answer and then we backtrack and see if it fits. Right. I think the training that's necessary, Stephen, is not the training to uh improve your intuition. Uh but rather the training to listen to it and to not interrogate it and to not prosecute it. Because I'll give you an example. A woman is working late at night in a in an office building like this. She's on the 10th floor. She's leaving. She pushes the button for the elevator. The elevator door opens up. Inside the elevator is a man who causes her fear. She doesn't like it for whatever reason. Obviously, she has no opportunity yet to assess all the issues. What's he dressed like? What's he look like? What did I hear 3 weeks ago about a guy who wore a blue cap and t-shirt and she doesn't have any time for her first reaction was like that. What does she do? Most women, they get into a steel soundproof chamber with someone they're afraid of. And there's not another animal in nature that will do it. Now, why does she do it? Because the thought comes, oh, I don't want him to think I'm a racist because he's Hispanic or I don't want to be that kind of person or I don't want this reality to be true, so I'm going to act like it's not true. Right? And what I say is let the door close in his face. No problem. If you've got the signal, uh that's a lowcost decision. Wait for the next elevator. Right? That's a very lowcost issue. Now, there are so many examples of this in my work where I interviewed people who had been victimized. And time after time, they would tell me, I knew when I walked into that underground parking lot that that was the same car that I'd seen earlier. I knew when I met that guy such and such. In fact, there's a beautiful a woman who wrote me the most beautiful thing. I I think it's in in Gift of Fear or or it's in one of the subsequent books. And she said that she would look at her lifelong diary. She'd kept a lifelong diary and she looked back at it and it would say met this guy um feel a little queasy about him, not so sure, dated him, married him. And then she what she wrote to me was she said again and again I could see there it was in my diary listen to this the ending embedded in the beginning and so what I encourage people to do going to your original answer is how people can be safer is listen to their intuition know that its function is to protect you that's what it's doing when I was reading about your work on intuition and your perspective on it I it got me thinking about people in my life that I

主持人: have to get rid of tomorrow

Gavin: Well, actually that I have you know that little alarm bell in your head when you have you have a little alarm bell intuition like I don't know what the answer is but I feel like something isn't right

主持人: and that little alarm bell in my head I'm like so what do I do about that? And I think there was one particular example I was thinking of where I was getting this little vibe from someone that something was just off. And then 3 months later, we were at this event and they started opening up about their childhood.

Gavin: And in the course of opening up about their childhood, I learned something about their mother and something their mother used to do to them.

主持人: And they were talking to someone else about this behavior that it's created in them. M

Gavin: it suddenly all made sense. That thing that was giving me was making me feel like the vibe was off. I think now is because of something from their childhood that I didn't actually know which meant they have this behavior which will make you feel a little bit uncomfortable.

主持人: And in that moment and with I was thinking about this example before you arrived cuz I was like in that case my my intuition told me something but I didn't know what it was telling me. I imagine a lot of people have that. They have a vibe of someone something's not quite right and they're interpreting it to mean X when it could be Y.

Gavin: Yes. Sometimes there's a very nice like in my life and I suspect in yours too, there's often a very straight line between certain childhood experiences and what we ultimately do. In my case, a very easy one is there was fear. I then come to have a deep understanding of fear, both sides of it. uh and and and some compassion for it and some uh uh insight and I I then study it. There was violence uh in my childhood. And so I now come now it's so long ago that I'm 71. So my childhood is so long ago now that it doesn't have a a grip on my throat like it did for a lot of my life where the narrative was very very important to me and the narrative of my childhood was important. Go ahead. You can ask question. I was going to probably give people the context on your childhood.

Gavin: And in that moment and with I was thinking about this example before you arrived cuz I was like in that case my my intuition told me something but I didn't know what it was telling me. I imagine a lot of people have that. They have a vibe of someone something's not quite right and they're interpreting it to mean X when it could be Y. Yes. Sometimes there's a very nice like in my life and I suspect in yours too, there's often a very straight line between certain childhood experiences and what we ultimately do. In my case, a very easy one is there was fear. I then come to have a deep understanding of fear, both sides of it. uh and and and some compassion for it and some uh uh insight and I I then study it. There was violence uh in my childhood. And so I now come now it's so long ago that I'm 71. So my childhood is so long ago now that it doesn't have a a grip on my throat like it did for a lot of my life where the narrative was very very important to me and the narrative of my childhood was important. Go ahead. You can ask question. I was going to probably give people the context on your childhood. Oh, uh, you or me. I'll do it. Okay, good. Yeah, my childhood. Damn it. I'll I'll tell them. Uh, so yeah, a very, you know, very difficult time. My mother was a heroin addict. Uh, she was, uh, quite violent. She was very troubled. She committed suicide when she was, uh, 39 years old and I was 16. And that was a a kind of failure for me because I considered it my job to to get us all through this drama alive. Um, she shot my stepfather in front of me. Uh, a lot of in that house that we lived in, I think there I I saw the house a few months ago, by the way. I think there are nine bullets in the walls and floor of that house uh that I can account for, probably still there. And so, while I'm describing this to you dispassionately, uh, it's because of two things. The distance in terms of time, but most of all because of healing. And the the I want to give you my definition of healing in this context. My definition of healing for all of us is when we stop using any of our energy to manage the past. And this gives us all of our energy in the present moment. And so what do I mean using energy to manage the past? Well, if I'm keeping that story going and I'm saying to my wife, well, because my mama did this, this is why I feel such and such. which I went through times in my life when when those things were much closer to me. Today, I feel like I'm not using any of my energy to manage the past. The the narrative I told you this whole series of of dramas happened. And anytime you hear about a parent or or anybody in somebody's life committing suicide, we often think, "Oh, what a terrible experience that must have been." What you really ought to think when you hear about somebody committing suicide is, "Oh, what a series of terrible experiences there must have been leading up to that." And I want to tell you real quickly that I had a a couple of dreams that my mother was in that were particularly powerful. And I offered this to the audience to know that dream experiences are sometimes all you're going to get. Right? Because my mother died when I was 16. So I don't have an opportunity to sit across the table with her and say, "What were you thinking when you such and such and what was going on in your life when such and such?" And and but in a dream, she came to me once and I asked her, "Why were you so cruel to me?" And she was totally perplexed and she said to me, "Cruel to you, I was preparing you for this extraordinary life." And I think that's true. I think that's what happened is that for you, whatever your experience was, for Tony Robbins, who we talked about earlier, what his experience was, it took those experiences. You take away those experiences and you don't have someone who grows up wanting nothing more than to write these books for free and sell them for free and get them published for free like Forbidden Facts, the current book, in order to help people deal with these issues of skepticism, of fear, etc. You don't get somebody doing what I do. Uh where my ambition is long gone. My ambition for more more anything, more money, more houses. Well, houses I might still slip on, but now it's about service to other people. Wasn't always, but it was service to other people because I believe that public life, it includes you. If all you do is give me a bad example, that's service. If you give me a good example, that's a prettier form of service. It's a maybe it's a nicer job you got, but ultimately all of it is service. Everything that we can observe in of people in public life and people in our private lives. It's all service. You know, I remember a friend of mine telling me he went back home for Thanksgiving and he saw his whole family and he said he learned to only stay for one day. He said because all the happened on the second day with his family if he stayed for two days. And he also learned to stay in a hotel. I said, "Are you staying at home?" He said, "Oh, No, never never stay at home. Because here was this group of people. But what he told me that was interesting is he said, "Ah, Aunt Charlene, you taught me to speak more quietly because you talk so loud." And he says, "Uncle Carlo, you you taught me to be more gentle because, man, you're rough in everything you do. Throw the glasses around and the way you engage. Dad, you taught me to listen to people because you never listen to a thing I said even today. Isn't it a beautiful way of looking at it? Basically, these were the teachers in in our lives. For my mother, 100% uh the I'm I'm so far past forgiveness and so far into gratitude for the pieces that were wonderful. And by the way, this is a suffering person, right? This is a person that, you know, that charities are for and and social welfare is for. Uh, you know, a woman with three kids and no job and a heroin addict for God's sake. That's not an easy job. Uh, and and other drugs too, by the way, which helped me as I grew up to be skeptical of pharma because some of the pills she took, one of them called Doradin, has now been taken off the market for causing what? Psychosis, which explains a lot of her craziness. And so all of this this, you know, teaching that it depends what you do with it. Meaning you we all we all nobody gets out of here alive, right? Everybody's got a story to tell. And I remember a case where I overvalued my own ability to predict human behavior, which I say, you know, I say in these books, you can predict human behavior, right? To to drive here today in traffic, I had to predict the behavior of thousands of people based on just the little movements of the big metal objects around them. You know that guy who starts to move over into your lane and then he catches himself and goes. You never trust that guy. You always want to get way behind him or way in front of him. So, we're predicting human behavior all the time. But I overvalued mine. I thought, "Oh, I'm Mr. Genius predicting human behavior because I developed these systems of artificial intuition that predict human behavior." And I was at a meeting and there were a group of people at the meeting and it was going to start in about 5 minutes. And a few people were comforting one woman who was really sobbing at the end of the table. And I thought to myself judgmentally, um, why'd she even come to the meeting? I mean, if she can't do the meeting, like, what's she doing here? And I knew it was a boyfriend issue, right? That's what she's crying about and they're comforting her. The meeting begins and that woman speaks first and she says through her tears, "I'm sorry you guys. Uh, I'll do my best at the meeting, but as many of you know, my husband killed my 12-year-old son 4 days ago." So my little journey into judgmental prediction was about as wrong as you could be and it was a uh a humbling experience for me because I would have discounted that person in a moment. That's the other side of of prediction and intuition, right? You can discount people uh and quickly toss them away. And so you know when you get this intuitive signal, do we have a responsibility to understand it? Yeah, we have a responsibility to understand it. How many people have I met who I thought what an that guy is. I don't ever want to talk to that guy again. And I didn't. My loss. Sometimes it was would have been the greatest person in the world. Uh sometimes it would have been a great relationship. And now I apply the the George Harrison rule. George Harrison the Beatles which writes this who writes this unbelievable lyric that's in While My Guitar Gently Weeps, which is I look at you all and see the love there that's sleeping. We have a brain budget. The way to think about it is we have a limited amount of energy that we can spend every single day. I'm saying find ways to simplify your life. And one way I've conserved my body budget is via our sponsor Factor who are a meal delivery service. They are especially great because they make fresh meals and they cater to so many different diets. High protein, keto, vegan, vegetarian, low carb, gluten-free, paleo diets, you name it. Every meal is designed by a dietitian, made by chefs, and delivered right to me. Fresh and never frozen. 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And for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me. But I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below. Through your work, you've um been behind the scenes with some of the most interesting people on planet Earth, most successful, richest, most powerful people on planet Earth. And you get to see therefore both sides of the fence in a way that most people would never see. You get to see how they are in the public life and then you get to see them in their private life and often times you'll get to see them

主持人: during some of the hardest moments of their life.

Gavin: Most of the time. Yeah.

主持人: What have you learned from that exposure?

Gavin: Well, probably a lot. So the I I'll but I'll give a a uh what what answer comes to me intuitively. When I was a kid and I used to watch television, I believed when I was a kid that the television was more real than our lives and I learned obviously through my experience that the exact opposite was true, right? The media world was unreal and our lives were real. And this Stephen is incredibly important today because with AI and social media and other things, we actually are challenged to know what is real and what is not real. Did Trump really make that speech or is it an AI film? Did did that really happen or is is that real what I'm looking at? The cat really did that or is that an AI film? And we are challenged now to understand and choose I would say what's real and what's not real. That challenge has beauty in it because it's making for me it's making me question reality itself. In other words, um I'm questioning what really matters to me and what will I call real? And I'll give you some examples. I'll call touch real. Hug you. Shake your hand. I'll call that real. Nature. Time in a park. Time with animals. my time with cats and dogs. Unbelievably important to me because I trust those right? I believe that cat means business. This is what it's doing. If it wants to be on my chest purring, it wants to be on my chest purring. And if it doesn't, she's out of there, right?

主持人: CIA cat.

Gavin: And so, and and children are the same thing. I remember my son's meeting a famous client of mine who, let's say, is was the richest man in the world, etc. at that moment. and uh and my son at 3 years old, how much money do you have? Um but it held no offense because it's this little kid. All it can be is real. There's nothing but real in in a little kid. And so where I think optimistically about AI, which definitely has some problems for for for the human race for sure. But where I think optimistically about it is I think it's good for people to question reality because what ultimately is it? What is it? If this is a simulation, like Elon makes a good argument for, and I think he leans in that direction, by the way, and sometimes I I do too with him. If it's a simulation, uh, then we want to make it interesting and and we want to be a bit outside. In in a simulation, we're not vulnerable, right? The the the spirit, the soul, the energy that animates us um will continue. It's not going anywhere. And it lets us witness this experience rather than feel victim to it, right? we get to this is a good movie and we wouldn't go see a movie if we knew the outcome, right? But we but this movie is really good. And so when I look at AI things and trust me, I don't know about you, you're younger, so you're you may have better instincts or intuitions for it, but I genuinely can't tell sometimes. I mean, I send something back to a friend of mine and say, I think that's I don't think the dog actually jumped up on the top shelf and did that such and such. I I don't buy it. And then you look at it a few more times. But this is good for us because what it brings us to is whatever we think is real. Touch, taste, uh uh the feelings, tears, nature, whatever we think it is, I believe that's where I want to be. That's where I want to spend my time.

主持人: So there's this theory called the dead internet theory where they think that because of AI and us being able to make I sent actually sent a video to some of my team members earlier. It's a two and a half minute video and it's made with one of these AI tools and it it's the ending of a very famous movie and someone's just changed it and they it's a kid in their bedroom has made a new ending to the movie. couple of prompts, they've got a new ending to the movie. And I I was playing this forward, playing this forward and forward and forward. And eventually you get to a point where bots will be just spraying content at the internet. And in such a world, unless we have these sort of um retina scanners to confirm that I'm doing the post live, you get to this dead internet theory where like everything you see is either written by produced by AI. Therefore, wait. Our level of skepticism just raises to the point that we don't trust anything we're seeing. You're saying that that's actually a good thing for us because it makes us question what we're seeing again and revert to real things that are irreplaceably human.

Gavin: Yes. I think it's good to I think it's it's spiritually good for us to redefine reality as opposed to take me back 20 years in my life and possibly yours. What did I believe? everything the government said, every official narrative. Why wouldn't I believe it?

主持人: Do you think there's any downside to our lost interest in institutions?

Gavin: Well, I have such a negative view of big centralized institutions.

主持人: Why?

Gavin: Why? Because I think what happens when you a a very good number of people to live together is about 300. And what I base that on is uh Fiji where I live a lot, villages are about 300 people. There's a chief who lives with them. He doesn't get special treatment. He's not carried around in a gold chariot. He's got to eat the same food they do. And he is generally uh benevolent. And uh because the the beauty of the Fijian village, and I encourage you you to go and all your your viewers to go. Don't all go on the same day because you'll up Fiji, but go anyway. Um the the beauty of the Fijian village is that people will be born and grow up and get married and have children and die all in the same house and all with the same people. That's fantastic because what they don't get that I get in my life and you get is the engagement with all these anonymous people that don't matter. Right? The waiter is just a snapshot to me, not a real person I'm sitting down with. I like to, by the way, really engage with people uh at the expense of of the friends I'm with very often. I'm really curious about people. The Uber driver, I'm I'm curious, but I know that the this is a temporary relationship in the Fijian village. Uh it's not a temporary relationship. I'll give you a good example on an airplane. You're on a commercial flight somewhere and you've got a 10-hour flight to overseas to London or something and there's a baby crying and uh you're pissed that the baby's crying. Some people are. I mean, I I look at this when we used to travel, my wife and I, and I remember somebody saying when we boarded with my maybe 20-month-old son, "Is that baby going to cry?" And I said to the woman, "What do you think? It's a it's a 20-month old baby." But the point is, hey folks, we're together for the next 10 hours. How do we want to spend this time? We want to spend it hating each other. We want to get too drunk and bug the person next to you. How do we want to do this? A Fijian village is like that. In fact, a Fijian village is fewer bathrooms than a 747 and fewer seats than a 747. Fewer people for God's sake, what we get on an airplane every day. And so I believe in small populations uh for governance. And I believe in subsidiarity, a word you probably don't know. I only learned it about a year ago from a dear friend in Cape Town. Subsidiarity means government at the most local possible level. So, if it's a if it's a an issue regarding building permit, that ought to be city or county, nothing to do with Washington DC. If it's an issue regarding interstate commerce, okay, maybe we need a little Washington DC. We need a little state involved. But government at the lo most local possible level so that I can come over to your house, Stephen, and say, "Why did you not approve my my building permit?" Or so I can meet you in the restaurant where we see each other every morning, where our kids go to school together. I don't believe centralized government works. And I think further that centralized government is our enemy. It is the enemy of of citizens.

主持人: I was thinking about the parallels there actually for business.

Gavin: They get too big.

主持人: Yeah, they get too big. And a lot of great companies actually break break up divisions and departments and give them autonomy and subsidiar. Can't even say it.

Gavin: Subsidiary. It wasn't easy for me either.

主持人: I nailed it first time. What you're talking about subsidiary. Subsidiarity. Bing bing.

Gavin: Subsidiarity. Yeah.

主持人: And how even in as our company grows, maybe I should think more about subsidiarity.

Gavin: Well, I'll tell you, my company at its biggest was about a thousand people and 26 offices around the country, around the world, and I didn't like a thousand people as a number. I liked where we are now, which is about 600 people and uh and we're hiring, by the way, so look us up and and come to work. We need we need young people uh who are physically fit and have good backgrounds, uh meaning they can pass screening. But my point is that I I like to stay in that sweet spot of a thousand people starts to get too far from the individuals. And when it's small, and I don't know where you are now in in this in in this podcast organization, but you can walk down the hall and see an employee and say, "Hey, it seems like you're you're not doing so well. You seem you don't like to joke anymore. You seem humorless. You seem such and such." In a big organization while I developed a method for that by the way I'll tell you you in a second but in a big organization you get farther and farther and farther from the human beings. I want to tell you the method we developed. We have a thing called care. It stands for continuous asking responding and evaluation. Every day every employee in my company when they log into work gets a question that they answer and I get the statistical results of that every day. And the questions will be things like uh when do you think you're getting your next promotion? Uh or um have you experienced or witnessed sexual harassment? Have you experienced or witnessed discrimination? Why do I do that? Because I want to know, right? That's why you ask. Have you in bigger companies that use our system like Amazon did developed a system like it that you know you might ask a question like have you ever seen a firearm in the workplace? An unauthorized firearm. Oh, damn it. We want to know that information, right? Does your supervisor know your name? Huge question because a supervisor knowing that question is asked knows everybody's name which is what you want. You're influencing middle management behavior. But that system we have care is no different than me walking down the hall and say, "Hey, Stephen, I noticed for the last couple of days you're keeping your office door closed and you kind of shut down for some reason. What's going on?" You lose that when it gets too big. And when it gets really too big, like think about government agencies like HHS, the biggest budget in world history, $1.7 trillion, bigger than the Pentagon, started out at 85,000 employees. Luckily, it's down now. You You got to be kidding. You're running a a machine. It has nothing to do with humanity. And and government agencies have nothing to do with humanity. They have to do with process, bureaucracy.

主持人: We talked about advice. That's kind of where we started on this uh train of thought that you would give to your children and one of the you know trains we went down was about intuition.

Gavin: Yes.

主持人: Is there anything else that you think was would you know if you if you if this god forbid was your last day on earth and your children said to you, "Dad, what do I need to know to live a fulfilling life?"

Gavin: Yes.

主持人: Based in the world as we see it today, what would you what would you say if you could only say one thing?

Gavin: for me and I think it's true for everybody um contribution to others is a key part of coming to believe that you belong here. Those of us who had a tough time and but remember I said everybody has a tough time in some way through childhood selflove is often uh missing or is hard to come by and to believe that you belong here contribution to others is a key thing. The second one you asked for one but you're getting two. It's a it's a special today a bargain. The second one was the hardest lesson for me to come to believe and that was that what is right for you is always right for the other person.

Gavin: Very hard for me to get my head around this one because I thought, well, wait a minute. I want to break up with this girl who wants to get married and have kids with me. How can my breaking up be right for the other person? Well, a she gets to be with somebody who actually wants to be with her. she gets to begin her life now instead of I stay with her till she's 45 and she can't have kids anymore. So this idea that what's right for you is always right for the other person. The practical application is that all you need to do, Stephen, is know what's right for you,

主持人: which is easier said than done.

Gavin: It is easier said than done, but because in my case, what I would do is say, well, what how's this person going to do? When I was younger, I believed everybody that I fired, for example, which was very few people in my career. I mean, employed a shitload of people, but I didn't fire very often. Everybody that I fired, I thought they went from working at this great company that I was the founder of to being on the street homeless and couldn't feed their families. That's not what happened. They went to other great jobs. If they could work for GDBA, they had already jumped through so many hoops. They were presentable. They were intelligent. They were physically fit. They had a a great background. They had integrity that we could see. They had all variety of of things. And they presented incredibly well because we've got one hell of a screening process. We have a 9-day nine-day interview, not a 1-hour interview. They live they come and live at our camp for 9 days of an interview process. They're sleeping in our environment. We're really getting to know them. By the way, it's 12 days now, but started as 9 days. So now I know if I fire somebody or if they leave, uh, they're going to do fantastic. That that was a big awakening for me. But this idea that what's right for me is always right for the other person, what does it do? It frees you to know that the only place I have to go to get the answer to this question is in here. You don't want me messing around in your brain trying to figure out what you want, trying to figure out what you believe, trying to figure out what's best for you. I've hurt more people in my life, trying to figure out what's best for them than I've helped.

主持人: It is um it is remarkably true. I was just sort of senseing it against people where in one particular case where I had fired someone and they were very upset about it many many many years ago in a previous business very upset about it protested you know said some things uh to me and then years later five six 10 years later when I reflect on where they are now and if that was the best thing for them as I kind of assumed it was to be honest they would say it was the best thing for them I would say it was the best thing for them in hindsight in part because

Gavin: when held in a situation that's not right for them. They're going to suffer in other ways.

主持人: Yeah.

Gavin: Under the under a standard, including your resentment.

主持人: My resentment, a standard they can't meet, goals they can't meet, the pressure from everybody, the stress when they can't see their job, of course.

Gavin: And yeah, and let them go and they started their own thing. And um less pressure, lower goals, less expectation. They seem to be much much happier.

主持人: And you Oh, much happier.

Gavin: And you Yeah. That's the Look, God only made you or the universe, whichever word you want to fit in there, only made you responsible for one person. truly responsible for one person and and that's you and then that has of course all the ripple effects of what it does for the rest of the world even our children by the way are we responsible for them certainly not for life right because in my case I'm an older father my first birth kid I had a bunch of adopted kids a bunch I had eight but my first uh birth kid uh I was 52 years old and so I'm an older father to my 17-year-old son uh I don't expect to be around when he's

Gavin: Um, I'll take it if it happens to be that way. But I would be def crepit by that point. Uh, and I I'd rather probably exit before that. But my point is the idea that even our children, we will not find the answer. Do I know what's best for my kids? Of course not. I have a lot of opinions, but uh, you know, do I really know what's best? No. But I know what's best for me. And and that's really where my responsibility has to end. And Stephen, you asked me to boil it down to one. I gave you a special today of two. And uh and I want to give you uh the third one that you haven't asked for. And it's this. Everything you want is downstream. Everything you want is downstream. Meaning that time when we're swimming against the current and think, oh, if it's important, it's going to take all this work, etc., etc. There is no swimming upstream. What? Downstream always wins. Reality always wins. You know, when you swim upstream, you put enough current there and you're staying in the same place. And so, the times in my life when I thought it must be this way. It has to be this. This there's a this is the only way. I was wrong. I was wrong. Including hiring a dear friend of mine told me the story of hiring a CEO for his company, big company, and and the guy said, "I'll take the job." And they negotiated everything. And then the guy said, "You know, I'm going to go to work for for Pepsi Cola, and I'm sorry." And my friend got on an airplane and flew to the hotel and waited in the lobby. the of the hotel where he knew the guy was, caught him in the lobby and said, "Don't go to work for them. Go to work for me. I'll change the offer in the following way. I'll add this equity." And he succeeded and he got the CEO he wanted. And three weeks later had to fire the

Gavin: So basically, when the whole universe says no, everything you want is downstream. Now, you probably have some, you tell me, do you have some resistance to that idea? Um, I would say I can think of examples where I fought for something and it was I fought for a person or something and it turned out to be a good decision. Should I give you the context?

主持人: Yeah, I'd love to hear the context. But by the way, that doesn't defeat my argument because fighting for something is not the same as swimming upstream. You know, swimming upstream is you know which way this river is going.

Gavin: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense then.

主持人: Yeah. And so the the you ask what I would tell my kids is that everything you want is downstream. It kind of you know I've been so blessed or lucky whatever word you want to use or fortunate in my life that my work you've got all these books as examples. I loved doing it. It wasn't work. I love sometimes it's hard but hard is not the same as like feeling like I'm just stamping something out in this factory which would be a kind of hell for me I guess. Uh, I loved I I was doing what I was on the planet to do. I think everybody isn't that lucky.

Gavin: The example I was going to give you actually support the story. Yes. Go ahead.

主持人: Me and my me and my then girlfriend were dating for a year. We had an issue. I've been very open about this and the newspapers write about it and stuff, but we had an issue with our intimate life and we couldn't really see a way around it. Broke up.

主持人: She flew to Bali because we couldn't see a way to solve the problem. And then I carried on with my life and a year goes past and I'm thinking constantly, I'm thinking, do you know what? I think actually that was the right person.

主持人: I think I up. I think I should have maybe in my immaturity I like should have found a way to work through this problem. So I fly across the world to Bali for 18 hours and I go there to apologize to her for not handling the situation better in a more mature way. I I apologize. I think there is part of me that's trying to get her back. actually while we're there she does tell me that in the time we've been apart she's been with someone else and I take it all very very well I'm very mature and then while we're there I know she's not trying she's not trying to like sit next to me so when we go for dinner with our friends she's like sitting two seats down she's like there's no interest in me anymore

主持人: so I accept it and I tell her I'm going home in in 2 days time thank you so much for spending time I send her this nice text message and then in those in the 48 hours before my flight

主持人: it's like we fell in love with each other again. So, it supports your point because when I apologized, I came with no agenda and then I said, "I'm leaving."

主持人: In the 48 hours from the point where I said, "I'm off now." Sent her a nice message. It's like we fell in love again. She's now my fianceé

主持人: and that's what I don't know. It's been seven years or something. But it actually goes to show what you said. Now I thought it through cuz I thought flying was me fighting for something because of the example you gave, but actually

主持人: it was I apologized and I'd given up. I like stopped fighting.

Gavin: That's the best when you when you let it go. And suddenly and suddenly it happens. Yes, it does fit. Everything you want is downstream. In fact, that that's not, you know, even getting on a plane is downstream.

主持人: You didn't get on a plane that flies backwards or has no engines. That's what I'm talking about is when you find yourself, and I certainly have in my life, find myself doing something that is so difficult to do uh and and so unrewarding and it feels like I'm trying to swim upstream, which I can tell you from experience in lots of rivers, some of them in Fiji, it doesn't work. You you don't get a lot of mileage swimming upstream.

主持人: I was just going to ask cuz you know, this this was such a smash hit bestselling book.

Gavin: Yeah.

主持人: Nationally. And I was just going to ask you the question,

主持人: why? What is it that resonated with people that made this book so successful? The gift of fear, survival signals that protect us from violence. What What is it?

Gavin: That's a very good question. I mean, a good question in that it's in that it's a new question. I'll give you what I what I hope. I think if that book had been about Chinese pottery uh or about spices or any subject carpentry um it also would have worked well because it had by a number of blessings it had some core truths in it like you didn't one of the things I'm saying to them is forget about experts you you don't need an expert to be telling you things that are in your own body if this story is resonant to you if this experience from all these people that I interviewed is resonant to you and if that works for then uh you know you'll find value here and uh there are some practical reasons why it was a bestseller like Oprah doing it. I mean everybody did it. Time magazine, Newsweek, everybody did big things on the book. Why at that moment did that work out? I I have a theory which is that a a lot of people in media knew me or knew of me but I never had done anything public and it it took a lot of courage to do and when I for me I talk about things that were very personal in that book and uh and in the other books as well and it took a lot of courage in fact I went and met with two authors beforehand who had told really hard stories about their lives and uh I didn't know them I just asked for meetings one of them was in DC and uh and and I got some encouragement. I also remember, by the way, meeting with a group of of law enforcement officials who were at my company for some reason, and I told them a couple of stories from that book, uh childhood stories, and they were kind of a gasast. Everybody was like, "Oh, it didn't stimulate any conversation at the table." I knew I was in a kind of territory that most people run away from. And that too helped me uh because I thought uh denial, denial, denial, denial, denial all around the table because every cop and every FBI agent has a story about why they are doing what they're doing just like every doctor does, just like everybody does. There's a reason that they're doing what they're doing that usually will be discoverable in uh in childhood. And when they discover it, like who do you want for example for a heart surgeon? Do you want the heart surgeon whose grandfather died of a heart attack in his arms when he was 14 years old? Or do you want the one who said heart surgery? Oh, the earnings look really good on heart surgery. I'll take heart surgery as my major. Uh you know, you want the one with a with a core uh with a with a story uh a personal story.

主持人: We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next. And the question left for you, not knowing who they were leaving it for, is where do you think the origin of your purpose and meaning comes from objectively?

Gavin: Okay, give me 25 minutes of silence. This is I guess it's somewhat of a spiritual answer uh which is that I believe in I I tend to go with everything is predetermined meaning down to the smallest tree in the smallest town in the smallest place uh it's going to be that's how it was going to be. Now, I have a scientific version of this, which is that if you're I remember one day I was in Fiji and I was swimming in front of my house and the the water's just 4t deep in front of my house because it's on a reef so you can walk on it and then you get to the end of the reef, you get to the deep water and I was standing in the in the 4ft deep water and suddenly a massive rainstorm came just like theop bop, you know, hitting you in the head and then it stopped immediately and immediately after that this massive school of fish about this big just started jumping out of the water in front of me and it's noisy. IT'S LIKE as they were going around and they go in a whole circle around me and then they're and then they're gone. And immediately after this the tide which was rising, it goes up and down as you know twice a day. Um the tide really got strong where I was standing and it was coming in as opposed to going out. And so I was really like standing there like this and I was looking around and I thought, "This better be enough stimulation for you, brother. Like I'd just seen the giant rainstorm and then the sun, the fish going nuts and then this giant tide thing." And as soon as I thought that, a whale breached right off the reef, right? And uh and I and I thought, "Holy man. You are seeing one hell of a movie here." And then I thought, in fact, I dreamed that night that I was uh as if somebody had typed in, "Show me what it would be like to be standing on a reef in Fiji." Uh there was no AI then, but to be standing on a reef in Fiji and have a massive school of fish go jumping up around you, have a, you know, huge storm begin, have it quickly get sunny, and then see a whale breach in front of you as you're trying to hold on to the reef is is is, you know, so strong you can barely stand up. Show me what that's like, Google. And that I Gavin was like the eyes of God, universe, whatever it may be that you could like what is it like to be a 42year-old man who's had this diet this day, this trip out to the reef, this childhood, this experience? Is it all predetermined? And I do believe it is. And so the answer to that question is I believe it's out of my hands. I may get the choices uh you know is there free will something is presented to me go left go right uh I I might get the choice but what is presented to me what is presented to me is not up to me.

主持人: Are you telling me that life is consciousness trying to understand itself. Someone said that to me once and it was quite a compelling thought.

Gavin: The idea was dropped into my skull so quickly like it was a journalistic report that said here's the way the world works. something or somebody or everybody or everything types into Google what it wants to see and occasionally you are the body that it works through because if the rest of the universe and by the way kind of interesting this very moment we're in Stephen because that experience I had is now being relayed to a few million people courtesy of you and your question and that question in this podcast. So now you do know a little bit about what it's like to stand in the water with the the current trying to pull you over and see a whole school of fish go around you and see a whale breach right in front of you and see this this massive rainstorm come and go in a matter of minutes. Uh now you get a little piece of that experience. Now do I think here's the big the punchline. Do I think I created that experience? No way. I don't. I think it's predetermined. And I think the I said to you the scientific version is you're gonna ask me this question and that's the answer you're going to get. That's what I believe based on what I ate today, based on what I ate 40 years ago, based on childhood, based on who you are and who I am. That's the answer you're going to get.

主持人: And who left the question

Gavin: and who left it and how their day was and what they ate that day and everything else. I believe in predetermination. It is um it comes from a teacher of mine in India my best teacher in life Nisarada wrote a book called I am that recommended to everybody and then his student who's now died uh Romesh Basakar who I got to go see and spend time with in India who was an important teacher for me who basically said

Gavin: every day at 9:00 a.m. He had satsang in his house basically. People could come and ask questions. Uh uh and and it was sort of he he happened to be Indian but it was sort of Buddhist in nature. And somebody said to him, "Well, are you just saying we're all robots?" And he said, "YES, EXACTLY CORRECT. We're all robots." And then the person said, "Well, why should I even get out of bed in the morning?" And he said, "Try it. Try and stay in bed." And he said, "After a few days, you'll be up and about. You'll be doing something. You'll be motivated to do something." So um that is my answer to your question which obviously uh I only heard this second and the answer only came this second.

主持人: Kevin, thank you. Thank you for opening my eyes in so many ways. You've written so many of these great books. All of them I'm going to link below. The newest one here is called Forbidden Facts: Government Deceit and Suppression about Brain Damage from Childhood Vaccines. There's another book about children here. Protecting the the gift, keeping children and teenagers safe and parents sane. The Gift of Fear, survival signals that protect us from violence.

Gavin: And I think those are the only three you need to link. And my reason is these are kind of specialty books

主持人: additions. Okay, fine. So, I'll link these below for everyone to see. Um, I highly recommend checking all of Gavin's work work out. Um, and these are going to be in the comment section below if if anyone wants to read more about some of the things we've touched on. You've touched on all these books today, but if you want to go deeper on any of these subjects, this is your opportunity to do so. And is there anywhere else people can go to find you if they're interested in your

Gavin: I mean our website is gdba.com and probably gavanddebecker.com works. The website is I don't even solicit new clients. We don't have any marketing or anything like that. The website is there for one purpose which is attracting candidates for employment because we are hiring a lot of people all the time. So that's what the website does but there may be other information there that's valuable for people. I don't know.

主持人: Well, if anyone's young and fit and strong and wants to work with Gavin, then um I'll link the website below as well to see all of the jobs available. Gavin, thank you so much. It's certainly I mean there's so many things that blow my mind, but one one of the most important things for me is actually just this lesson about intuition and that even and that to listen to it more and to be more upfront with people when I my intuition isn't is telling me something

Gavin: because you're right. I think we're we're all very good at um tuning the volume of our intuition down and society kind of teaches us to gaslight ourselves and double guess. Gavin, thank you.

Gavin: Uh thank you too and thanks for what you're doing. You are one of my teachers as well. Young man, I get to say at 71.

主持人: Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now.