开场与语言的“冗余”
John McWhorter: Richard, let's just jump right in, as they say at the beginning of interviews like this. 我想我们都想探讨这样一个事实：当我作为语言学家阅读《自私的基因》时，我想到：“这就像语言一样。”
John McWhorter: You focus your interest on the similarities of the evolution of language with the evolution of creatures. 你将兴趣集中在语言进化与生物进化之间的相似之处。
John McWhorter: And to explore the parallels, the first thing I always wanted to ask you about is excess. 为了探讨这些相似之处，我一直想问你的第一件事就是“冗余”。
John McWhorter: In any language, really any language, language specifies more things than it needs to. 在任何语言中，确实是任何语言，它所表达的东西都超出了实际所需。
John McWhorter: If you speak that language, you consider it normal, but it's not. 如果你说这种语言，你会觉得这很正常，但实际上并非如此。
John McWhorter: So, for example, if you learn how to do the future tense in English, you'll be taught that we say "will": "I will buy you some socks." 例如，如果你学习如何使用英语的将来时，你会学到我们说“will”：“I will buy you some socks。”（我会给你买些袜子。）
John McWhorter: But if you think about it, that's not a sentence. 但如果你仔细想想，这并不是一个完整的句子。
John McWhorter: When would you ever say, "I will buy you some socks"? 你什么时候会说“I will buy you some socks”呢？
John McWhorter: Only at the end of an argument. 只会在争论的最后。
John McWhorter: Actually, what you're much more likely to say is, "I'm going to buy you some socks." 实际上，你更可能会说“I'm going to buy you some socks。”（我打算给你买些袜子。）
John McWhorter: Or you might say, "Tomorrow I buy you some socks," which gives it a factual idea. 或者你可能会说“Tomorrow I buy you some socks”，这表达了一个事实性的概念。
John McWhorter: Or "I shall buy you some socks," using "shall," which doesn't mean anything, but it's another way of saying it. 或者“I shall buy you some socks”，使用“shall”，它本身并没有什么意义，但也是一种表达方式。
John McWhorter: Our future tense is excessive. 我们的将来时是冗余的。
John McWhorter: I've often thought that much of language doesn't have to be there. 我常想，语言中很多东西其实没有存在的必要。
John McWhorter: No language has the demand with the future as English does. 没有哪种语言像英语一样对将来时有如此多的要求。
John McWhorter: Do creatures, plants, or, let's say, plantimals, also have excess in the same way, and if so, why? 生物、植物，或者说，那些动植物混合体，是否也以同样的方式存在冗余呢？如果存在，原因何在？
生物进化中的“冗余”与性选择
Richard Dawkins: I suppose you could say that poetry is something extravagant and excessive. 我想你可以说诗歌是某种奢侈而冗余的东西。
Richard Dawkins: And if I think about it, the closest approach to poetry in wild creatures might be something like a peacock's tail, which is far from utilitarian. 如果我仔细想想，野生生物中最接近诗歌的，可能就是孔雀的尾巴，它远非实用主义。
Richard Dawkins: The idea is that the male is trying to entice a female, and there's enormous exaggeration. 其想法是雄性试图引诱雌性，这其中存在巨大的夸张。
John McWhorter: Too much. 太多了。
Richard Dawkins: It's too much. 就是太多了。
Richard Dawkins: When Charles Darwin proposed his theory of 性选择 (Sexual Selection: 一种自然选择模式，其中某一性别的成员选择另一性别的配偶，并与同性成员竞争配偶权), his co-discoverer of 自然选择 (Natural Selection: 适应环境的生物体倾向于生存并繁衍更多后代的生物学过程), Alfred Russel Wallace, didn't like it because he wanted it to be more utilitarian. 当查尔斯·达尔文提出他的性选择理论时，他的自然选择共同发现者阿尔弗雷德·罗素·华莱士不喜欢它，因为他希望它更具实用性。
Richard Dawkins: And Darwin just said it's a whim of the female, that females just like this extravagant thing. 而达尔文只是说这是雌性的心血来潮，雌性就是喜欢这种奢侈的东西。
Richard Dawkins: This dispute wasn't resolved until the 1930s, when R. A. Fisher pointed out mathematically, or rather intuitively and mathematically, that, if you make certain assumptions, there's a 失控过程 (Runaway Process: 进化中的一种正反馈循环，其中某个性状和对该性状的偏好共同进化，导致该性状的极端夸张), an exponential runaway process, as natural selection acts according to the female's taste. 这场争论直到1930年代才得以解决，当时R. A. 费舍尔通过数学方式，或者说是直观结合数学方式指出，如果做出某些假设，就会存在一个失控过程，一个指数级的失控过程，因为自然选择是根据雌性的喜好而作用的。
Richard Dawkins: The genes for the female's taste become more and more extravagant, the male's tail becomes more extravagant, and this accelerates exponentially to produce this extravagant and ridiculous display. 雌性品味的基因变得越来越夸张，雄性的尾巴也变得越来越夸张，这种现象呈指数级加速，从而产生了这种奢华而荒谬的展示。
Richard Dawkins: There are other theories, but I think that's perhaps the closest approach, getting what you want. 还有其他理论，但我认为这或许是最接近的解释，即得到你想要的。
John McWhorter: And the only thing that could stop it is the tail gets so big it interferes. 唯一能阻止它的，就是尾巴变得太大，以至于妨碍了行动。
Richard Dawkins: Eventually, utilitarian considerations will interfere. 最终，实用性考量会介入。
Richard Dawkins: Sometimes I wonder if -- I think Geoffrey Miller suggested it -- it might be that human poetry, epic poems, recitations, singing, are a form of sexual selection and that we humans have developed the capacity to impress the opposite sex. 有时我想——我想杰弗里·米勒（Geoffrey Miller）曾提出——人类的诗歌、史诗、朗诵、歌唱可能是一种性选择形式，我们人类发展出了打动异性的能力。
John McWhorter: There's some of that. 这其中有一些道理。
Richard Dawkins: By being virtuoso poets, virtuoso reciters of tribal epic poems, something like that. 通过成为技艺高超的诗人，技艺高超的部落史诗朗诵者，类似这样的。
Richard Dawkins: Like a peacock's tail. 就像孔雀的尾巴一样。
John McWhorter: It's a nice idea, especially for linguists. 这是个不错的主意，特别是对语言学家来说。
语言中的“遗迹”与非编码DNA
John McWhorter: I have a related question. 我有一个相关的问题。
John McWhorter: A lot of what's in a language comes from drag-along. 语言中很多东西都是“拖带”而来的。
John McWhorter: To use an already antiquated analogy, it's like a car dragging cans after a wedding. 用一个已经过时的比喻来说，这就像婚礼后汽车拖着罐子一样。
John McWhorter: I've never seen it except in cartoons, but it must have happened, perhaps, in the 50s. 我除了在卡通片里见过，现实中从没见过，但也许在50年代发生过。
John McWhorter: Well, a lot of language is that -- for example, in English we have the word "dribble." 嗯，很多语言就是这样——例如，在英语中我们有“dribble”这个词。
John McWhorter: It comes from "drip." 它源自“drip”（滴）。
John McWhorter: So drip is just "drip, drip," whereas dribble is (vocalizes) like that. 所以“drip”只是“滴，滴”，而“dribble”（淌、流）则是（发出声音）那样。
John McWhorter: And you think, well, that's fine, it just happens there. 你可能会想，嗯，那很好，它就那样发生了。
John McWhorter: Now let's think about the word "nip." 现在我们想想“nip”（轻咬）这个词。
John McWhorter: So you say "ow," like a wolf that's nipping. 所以你会说“嗷”，就像一只狼在轻咬。
John McWhorter: But the word "nibble" is like that (vocalizes). 但“nibble”（啃食）这个词是（发出声音）那样。
John McWhorter: That "le" that we add is (vocalizes) and it's used in "giggle," "spackle," and "sparkle." 我们添加的那个“le”是（发出声音）那样，它被用于“giggle”（咯咯笑）、“spackle”（批灰）和“sparkle”（闪耀）中。
John McWhorter: A spark is the discharge that happens when a fuse burns out. “spark”（火花）是保险丝烧断时产生的放电。
John McWhorter: "Sparkle" is (vocalizes) like that. “sparkle”（闪烁）是（发出声音）那样。
John McWhorter: But we can't make new words with "le" anymore. 但我们不能再用“le”来创造新词了。
John McWhorter: You don't say "walkle," adding "le" to "walk." 你不会说“walkle”，在“walk”（走）后面加上“le”。
John McWhorter: It fell out of use ages ago. 它在很久以前就停止使用了。
John McWhorter: Only an Old Germanic speaker would have used it. 只有古日耳曼语使用者才会用它。
John McWhorter: It's not used anymore. 它现在不再使用了。
John McWhorter: Now, I think the analogy of this to DNA is 非编码DNA (Non-coding DNA: 不编码蛋白质但可能具有调控或结构功能的DNA序列). 现在，我认为这与DNA的类比就是非编码DNA。
John McWhorter: Is it true that there's drag-along DNA that used to mean something but doesn't anymore? 是否真的存在曾经有意义但现在已无意义的“拖带”DNA呢？
John McWhorter: Or is that analogy wrong? 或者这个类比是错误的？
Richard Dawkins: It's true. 是真的。
Richard Dawkins: The phrase "non-coding DNA" is overused in several senses, but I think you're talking about what are called 假基因 (Pseudogenes: 类似功能基因但因突变而失去蛋白质编码能力的DNA序列). “非编码DNA”这个短语在多种意义上被过度使用，但我认为你所指的是所谓的假基因。
Richard Dawkins: Which are really just dead vestiges. 它们实际上只是死亡的遗迹。
Richard Dawkins: It's different from your example with "dribble." 这与你举的“dribble”的例子不同。
Richard Dawkins: It's a dead vestige. 它是一个死亡的遗迹。
Richard Dawkins: The most interesting example is a kind of fossil that has disappeared, and I mean the sense of smell. 最有趣的例子是一种已经消失的“化石”，我指的是嗅觉。
Richard Dawkins: As we know, humans have a very poor sense of smell compared to many other mammals. 众所周知，与许多其他哺乳动物相比，人类的嗅觉非常迟钝。
Richard Dawkins: The interesting thing is that we still have the genes that would make us have that kind of sense of smell, but they're switched off. 有趣的是，我们仍然拥有能够让我们拥有那种嗅觉的基因，但它们被关闭了。
Richard Dawkins: We have a whole repertoire of ancient mammalian olfactory genes. 我们拥有整套古老的哺乳动物嗅觉基因。
Richard Dawkins: They've just been disconnected. 它们只是被断开了连接。
Richard Dawkins: They're vestiges, they're pseudogenes. 它们是遗迹，是假基因。
Richard Dawkins: I feel that if only they could be switched back on, we would smell wonderful and exotic perfumes that we can't imagine. 我感觉，如果它们能重新被激活，我们将能闻到我们无法想象的美妙而异域的香气。
Richard Dawkins: It would occur to me that a wine connoisseur would go much further than the idea of "a delicate graphite pencil intertwining with blackberry notes, to deliver a satisfactory finish," and that kind of thing. 在我看来，一位葡萄酒鉴赏家会远远超越“一种精致的石墨铅笔香气与黑莓的芬芳交织，带来令人满足的余韵”这类描述。
Richard Dawkins: That is, it would go much further if we had all these genes switched on. 也就是说，如果这些基因都被激活，嗅觉会远比现在敏锐。
John McWhorter: No doubt. 毫无疑问。
John McWhorter: But these genes can revert. 但这些基因可以逆转。
John McWhorter: I just thought of an example. 我刚刚想到一个例子。
John McWhorter: This is spontaneous and I don't usually do it. 这是即兴的，我通常不这么做。
John McWhorter: If I add "le" to "word," it becomes "Wordle," a term that doesn't exist. 如果我在“word”（词）后面加上“le”，它就变成了“Wordle”，一个不存在的词。
John McWhorter: But now it does. 但现在它存在了。
John McWhorter: We are reusing that suffix. 我们正在重新使用那个后缀。
John McWhorter: It's a little word game. 那是一个小小的文字游戏。
John McWhorter: You can bring it back to life, and maybe there are other things that end in "le" nowadays, like "tax assessmentle." 你可以让它复活，也许现在还有其他以“le”结尾的词，比如“tax assessmentle”（税收评估le）。
Richard Dawkins: What about "hardle"? 那“hardle”呢？
John McWhorter: What is "hardle"? “hardle”是什么？
Richard Dawkins: Hardle is wonderful. “hardle”很棒。
Richard Dawkins: It means "much harder." 它的意思是“难得多”。
John McWhorter: Harder than "Wordle"? 比“Wordle”还难？
Richard Dawkins: Yes. 是的。
语言与物种的区分：方言与亚种
John McWhorter: Anyway, I have another question for Professor Dawkins, and it's this: I was present when you said there was a way to differentiate -- I'm getting into my own thing -- between a language and a dialect. 总之，我还有另一个问题要问道金斯教授，那就是：我记得你曾说过有一种方法可以区分——这涉及到我的专业领域了——语言和方言。
John McWhorter: You're always asked as a linguist what's a dialect, what's a language, and how do you distinguish them. 作为语言学家，你总是被问到什么是方言，什么是语言，以及如何区分它们。
John McWhorter: Is Scots a dialect of English, or is it another language? 苏格兰语是英语的一种方言，还是另一种语言？
John McWhorter: You said, and I thought it was very clever, that we know someone speaks a dialect of another language and not a different language if, when you speak the dialect, the native speaker laughs at you or feels offended. 你说过，我觉得这非常巧妙，我们知道某人说的是另一种语言的方言而不是另一种不同的语言，如果当你讲这种方言时，母语者会嘲笑你或感到被冒犯。
John McWhorter: They don't think you're doing something important. 他们不认为你在做一件重要的事情。
John McWhorter: Whereas if you speak Japanese, they won't laugh at you, at least in your presence. 然而，如果你说日语，他们不会嘲笑你，至少在你面前不会。
John McWhorter: They're honored that you try. 他们会因为你尝试而感到荣幸。
John McWhorter: Is there anything equivalent to differentiate between species and subspecies, like donkeys and mules? 有没有类似的方法来区分物种和亚种，比如驴和骡子？
Richard Dawkins: If I went to a Glasgow bar and said (speaks in Dutch), I'd probably get beaten up. 如果我去格拉斯哥的酒吧，然后说（用荷兰语说话），我可能会挨揍。
Richard Dawkins: But if I went to an Amsterdam bar and tried to speak Dutch, they'd make a fuss over me. 但如果我去阿姆斯特丹的酒吧，并尝试说荷兰语，他们会对我非常热情。
John McWhorter: They'd love it, of course. 他们会很喜欢，当然。
Richard Dawkins: That's the difference between a dialect and a language. 那就是方言和语言的区别。
Richard Dawkins: Well, there are two species of frogs in North America: Microhyla carolinensis on the east side and Microhyla olivacea on the west side. 在北美有两种青蛙：东部的Microhyla carolinensis和西部的Microhyla olivacea。
Richard Dawkins: The olivacea emits a higher-pitched sound. olivacea会发出更高音调的声音。
Richard Dawkins: So the olivacea has a high-pitched sound... 所以olivacea有高音的声音……
John McWhorter: (makes high-pitched sound) （发出高音）
Richard Dawkins: And the carolinensis has a lower-pitched sound. 而carolinensis有低音的声音。
John McWhorter: (makes low-pitched sound) （发出低音）
Richard Dawkins: But there's not much difference between them. 但它们之间没有太大的区别。
Richard Dawkins: Now, you would expect, if this were the case, a much more gradual 渐变 (Clina: 遗传或表型特征在地理区域上逐渐变化的现象，通常是环境异质性的结果). 现在，你会期望，如果是这种情况，会出现一个更为渐变的渐变。
Richard Dawkins: They are very closely related species. 它们是非常密切相关的物种。
Richard Dawkins: As you go from west to east, the sound they make would gradually get lower. 当你从西向东移动时，它们发出的声音会逐渐变低。
Richard Dawkins: That's what you'd expect, but the opposite happens. 这是你所期望的，但事实恰恰相反。
Richard Dawkins: It's an inverse clina. 这是一个反向渐变。
Richard Dawkins: As you enter the zone where they coexist, the sound of the olivacea goes up and that of the carolinensis goes down. 当你进入它们共存的区域时，olivacea的声音会变高，而carolinensis的声音会变低。
Richard Dawkins: That is, these creatures exaggerate the difference between them. 也就是说，这些生物体夸大了它们之间的差异。
Richard Dawkins: Therefore, in the zone where they coexist, the difference between them is exaggerated compared to the zone where they don't coexist. 因此，在它们共存的区域，它们之间的差异比不共存的区域更为夸张。
Richard Dawkins: This is equivalent to me going to a Glasgow bar and trying to speak a Scottish dialect and getting beaten up. 这相当于我去了格拉斯哥的一家酒吧，试图说苏格兰方言，结果被揍了一顿。
John McWhorter: And being attacked, yes. 是的，被攻击。
Richard Dawkins: And I think that might be true. 我认为这可能是真的。
Richard Dawkins: That is, 多布然斯基 (Theodosius Dobzhansky: 一位杰出的进化生物学家) had the theory that when new species form, when an ancestral species splits to form new subspecies, and then new species, there's an intermediate phase and an interregnum in which 自然选择 (Natural Selection: 适应环境的生物体倾向于生存并繁衍更多后代的生物学过程) favors anything to differentiate them, to make them sound different, look different, or smell different, to exaggerate the difference. 也就是说，多布然斯基曾提出一个理论：当新物种形成时，当一个祖先物种分裂形成新的亚种，然后是新物种时，会有一个中间阶段和过渡期，在此期间，自然选择会偏爱任何能使它们彼此区分开来的特征，让它们听起来不同、看起来不同或闻起来不同，从而夸大这种差异。
Richard Dawkins: Thus, there's a kind of acceleration of the 物种形成 (Speciation: 新的生物物种产生的进化过程) process. 因此，物种形成的过程会有某种加速。
John McWhorter: There are those who say the same thing about human language. 有人对人类语言也持同样的看法。
John McWhorter: That people deliberately tried to distinguish themselves from speakers of other dialects as social identification. 他们认为人们故意尝试将自己与说其他方言的人区分开来，作为一种社会身份认同。
Richard Dawkins: "We're not one of those." “我们不是那种人。”
John McWhorter: Right. 没错。
John McWhorter: Frankly, I suspect much of that has to do with a small collection of words. 坦白说，我怀疑这其中很大一部分与一小部分词汇有关。
John McWhorter: I'm skeptical that people purposely change their accent, because it's so deeply ingrained. 我怀疑人们会故意改变自己的口音，因为它根深蒂固。
John McWhorter: However, there are other linguists who would refute this, and it's true that we try to use words differently, we try to use different words. 然而，也有其他语言学家会反驳这一点，而且我们确实会尝试以不同的方式使用词语，尝试使用不同的词语。
Richard Dawkins: Yes, yes. 是的，是的。
语言演变中的“漂变”与“选择”
John McWhorter: Another question. 另一个问题。
John McWhorter: Natural selection means that changes in creatures are "all," or perhaps mostly, due to survival. 自然选择意味着生物体的变化“全部”，或者说大部分，是由于生存。
John McWhorter: Thus, a giraffe's longer neck, presumably, was so it could reach higher and thus get food. 因此，长颈鹿更长的脖子，大概是为了能够够到更高的地方，从而获得食物。
John McWhorter: And then there's the okapi, a giraffe, that doesn't need it. 然后是霍加狓，一种长颈鹿，它就不需要长脖子。
John McWhorter: Of course, in my opinion, most changes in a language, the transition from Old English, Beowulf, to Middle English, Chaucer, and to Modern English, today's, don't happen for survival. 当然，在我看来，语言中的大多数变化，从古英语（《贝奥武夫》）到中古英语（乔叟），再到现代英语（今天的英语），都不是为了生存而发生的。
John McWhorter: Old English was fine as it was, Middle English sounded normal to Chaucer. 古英语本身就很好，中古英语对乔叟来说听起来很正常。
John McWhorter: And for us, current English is the way it should be. 而对我们来说，现在的英语就是它应有的样子。
John McWhorter: And that's how it's always been. 而且一直都是如此。
John McWhorter: It's 漂变 (Drift: 在进化生物学中，基因变异频率在种群中随机波动，并非由选择驱动). 这是漂变。
John McWhorter: Things happen and you don't perceive it in the course of your life, and suddenly it's another language. 事情发生了，你在有生之年没有察觉到，然后突然间，它就变成了另一种语言。
John McWhorter: But there are also changes in natural selection. 但自然选择中也存在变化。
Richard Dawkins: Well, drift is in some ways the opposite of natural selection. 嗯，漂变在某些方面与自然选择是相对的。
Richard Dawkins: Evolutionary change can occur through drift, where there's no selective force, no advantage in this or that gene. 进化变化可以通过漂变发生，其中没有选择力量，某个基因也没有任何优势。
Richard Dawkins: It's just a random drift. 它只是一种随机的漂变。
Richard Dawkins: And that is probably a very important force in evolution. 这可能是进化中一个非常重要的力量。
Richard Dawkins: It's not the force that produces interesting things. 它不是产生有趣事物的力量。
Richard Dawkins: It不是产生适应性、产生更好的翅膀、更好的腿、更好的声音的力量。 It's not the force that produces adaptation, that produces better wings, better legs, better voices.
Richard Dawkins: But especially if we analyze it at a molecular level, if we observe evolution molecularly, we see that the changes are neutral. 但尤其是如果我们从分子层面分析，如果我们在分子层面观察进化，我们会发现这些变化是中性的。
Richard Dawkins: It's like changing the font of a word processor from Geneva to Times New Roman. 这就像把文字处理器的字体从日内瓦体改为新罗马体。
Richard Dawkins: The meaning is the same, but the letters are different. 意义是相同的，但字母不同。
Richard Dawkins: That's an extreme example of drift. 那是一个极端的漂变例子。
Richard Dawkins: And it's very important. 而且它非常重要。
Richard Dawkins: But selection is the interesting part of evolution. 但选择是进化的有趣部分。
Richard Dawkins: And now it's my turn to ask you a question. 现在轮到我问你一个问题了。
Richard Dawkins: Is everything drift in language evolution, or is there what we might call 模因选择 (Memetic Selection: 一种概念，指某些“模因”——思想、行为或风格——在文化中被优先传播和复制，类似于自然选择作用于基因)? 语言进化中的一切都是漂变吗，还是存在我们所说的模因选择？
Richard Dawkins: That is, if we think of words as 模因 (Memes: 在理查德·道金斯最初的概念中，模因是指通过模仿或学习从一个头脑传播到另一个头脑的文化信息单位，例如思想、信仰或习俗), using the word "meme" in the correct sense, by the way, not the Internet meme. 也就是说，如果我们把词语看作模因——顺便说一句，这里用的是“模因”的正确含义，而不是指互联网模因。
Richard Dawkins: Is there any way that natural selection -- no, not natural selection, but a form of selection that favors certain... 有没有某种方式，自然选择——不，不是自然选择，而是一种选择形式，它偏爱某些……
Richard Dawkins: What about, for example, "the 元音大推移 (Great Vowel Shift: 英语元音发音在1400年至1700年间发生的一项重大历史性语音变化)"? 例如，“元音大推移”是怎么回事？
Richard Dawkins: Is it possible that... 有没有可能……
John McWhorter: That is, in "I made a hat," why is the word 'made' written like that? 也就是说，在“我做了一顶帽子”中，为什么“made”这个词是那样写的？
John McWhorter: It says "mah-de." 它读作“mah-de”。
John McWhorter: Why do we say "made"? 我们为什么说“made”？
John McWhorter: As the "a" became "e" over time, nobody noticed. 随着时间推移，“a”变成了“e”，没有人察觉到。
John McWhorter: That's called the Great Vowel Shift. 那就是所谓的元音大推移。
Richard Dawkins: Well, suppose a vowel changes for some reason. 嗯，假设某个元音因为某种原因发生了变化。
Richard Dawkins: That could have led to the need for other vowels to change to eliminate ambiguity, because there could have been confusion as a result of the first vowel shift. 这可能导致其他元音也需要改变以消除歧义，因为第一次元音推移可能造成了混淆。
Richard Dawkins: And it's possible that the entire series, a cascade of vowel changes, occurred for functional reasons: disambiguation. 而且，整个系列，一系列的元音变化，很可能是出于功能性原因：消除歧义。
John McWhorter: It's a great idea. 这是个好主意。
John McWhorter: Let's imagine the vowels... 我们来想象一下元音……
John McWhorter: By the way, does anyone have chinchillas? 顺便问一下，有人养龙猫吗？
John McWhorter: Of course. 当然。
John McWhorter: You put them all in a cage, and they always move around each other. 你把它们都放在笼子里，它们总是在彼此周围移动。
John McWhorter: Chinchillas are like vowels. 龙猫就像元音。
John McWhorter: Vowels always move back and forth in the mouth. 元音总是在口腔中来回移动。
John McWhorter: And yes, there is a change in which the language is trying to keep things clear. 是的，语言确实在尝试保持清晰，这其中存在着变化。
John McWhorter: It's a weak force, but, just as often, vowels come together and create homonyms that cause problems. 这是一种微弱的力量，但同样频繁地，元音会趋于聚合，产生同音异义词，从而造成问题。
John McWhorter: Or something very typical linguistically. 或者一些非常典型的语言现象。
John McWhorter: I'm sitting here, improvising, and unfortunately, I'm going to have to get into a mess. 我坐在这里即兴发挥，不幸的是，我将不得不陷入一个困境。
John McWhorter: This is the mess. 困境就是这个。
John McWhorter: Several languages are spoken in northeastern Siberia. 在西伯利亚东北部有几种语言。
John McWhorter: I'm not even going to mention them, but that's where they are. 我甚至不打算提及它们，但它们就在那里。
John McWhorter: Let's think about it in English. 我们用英语来思考一下。
John McWhorter: We have what, where, why, when. 我们有“what”（什么）、“where”（哪里）、“why”（为什么）、“when”（何时）。
John McWhorter: They all start with "w" in English. 它们在英语中都以“w”开头。
John McWhorter: In a way, it makes them easier to learn. 在某种程度上，这让它们更容易学习。
John McWhorter: All interrogative words. 都是疑问词。
John McWhorter: In these languages of northeastern Siberia, there are a series of such words, 5,000 years old, that begin with "k" and all seem the same. 在西伯利亚东北部的这些语言中，有一系列这样有5000年历史的词汇，它们都以“k”开头，并且听起来都一样。
John McWhorter: The "k" disappeared, because the first sound of a word can disappear, like "libertá" instead of "libertad." “k”消失了，因为一个词的第一个音可以消失，就像“libertá”代替“libertad”一样。
John McWhorter: This means that, in those languages, instead of what, where, when, why, all with "w" in English, you now say "ut, ere, en, i." 这意味着，在那些语言中，你现在说的是“ut, ere, en, i”，而不是英语中都以“w”开头的“what, where, when, why”。
John McWhorter: They're not as clear, they're not as easy to learn. 它们不那么清晰，也不那么容易学习。
John McWhorter: They're confusing. 它们令人困惑。
John McWhorter: Those kinds of things happen as much as those that help to clarify things in language. 这类事情的发生频率，与那些有助于澄清语言中事物的事情一样多。
John McWhorter: And nobody cares, because when a child grows up with that and realizes there's something weird, it's too late to learn anything else. 而且没有人关心，因为当一个孩子在这样的环境中长大，并意识到有些奇怪时，再学别的东西就太晚了。
John McWhorter: That's why I think linguistic changes can be more random than changes in creatures. 所以我认为语言的变化可能比生物的变化更具随机性。
Richard Dawkins: What I don't understand is why in the US they don't differentiate between "can" and "can't." 我不明白的是，为什么在美国，他们不区分“can”（能）和“can't”（不能）。
John McWhorter: Because we don't need to. 因为我们不需要。
Richard Dawkins: Yes, they do, because they're exactly opposite each other. 不，他们需要，因为这两个词的意思完全相反。
John McWhorter: Context takes care of it, and that's why we suffer it. 语境会解决这个问题，所以我们忍受着它。
Richard Dawkins: Well, we'll have to accept that we disagree on that. 好吧，我们得承认我们在这个问题上意见不合。
原始印欧语的“纯粹性”之辩
Richard Dawkins: Now I want to ask you a question. 现在我想问你一个问题。
Richard Dawkins: I want to question something. 我想质疑一件事。
John McWhorter: To me? Go ahead. 问我？请讲。
Richard Dawkins: 原始印欧语 (Proto-Indo-European: 印欧语系假想的史前祖先语言) is, supposedly, the ancestor of a large number of languages. 原始印欧语，据称是大量语言的祖先。
Richard Dawkins: All European languages, except Basque, and several indigenous languages. 除了巴斯克语之外的所有欧洲语言，以及一些土著语言。
John McWhorter: The right music is (imitates trumpet sound). 正确的配乐是（模仿小号声）。
John McWhorter: That's Proto-Indo-European. 那就是原始印欧语。
John McWhorter: It's in what is today Ukraine. 它位于今天的乌克兰地区。
John McWhorter: Continue. 请继续。
Richard Dawkins: In evolutionary biology, it's a fact that if you take any two animals, for example, a kangaroo and you, there exists a single animal that is the most recent common ancestor of a kangaroo and you, and that is an individual. 在进化生物学中，这是一个事实：如果你随意选取两种动物，例如一只袋鼠和你，那么存在一个单一的动物，它是袋鼠和你最近的共同祖先，而且那是一个个体。
Richard Dawkins: I mean literally an individual. 我指的是字面意义上的一个个体。
Richard Dawkins: There was a mother animal that looked like a shrew or something. 曾有一只母动物，它看起来像鼩鼱或其他什么。
Richard Dawkins: It had two offspring that played together in the dust. 它生了两个后代，它们在尘土中一起玩耍。
Richard Dawkins: One of those offspring became the ancestor of humans, and the other offspring became the ancestor of kangaroos. 其中一个后代成为了人类的祖先，另一个后代成为了袋鼠的祖先。
Richard Dawkins: It is literally true. 这是千真万确的。
Richard Dawkins: An individual. 一个个体。
Richard Dawkins: Now I suspect that linguists suffer from something that is called "physics envy." 现在我怀疑语言学家患有一种被称为“物理学嫉妒”的毛病。
Richard Dawkins: Academic disciplines that envy physicists. 那些嫉妒物理学家的学术学科。
Richard Dawkins: I suspect that linguists envy biologists for their ability to trace the origin to a single ancestor. 我怀疑语言学家嫉妒生物学家，因为他们能够追溯到单一的祖先。
Richard Dawkins: I don't think you can conceive of Proto-Indo-European in the same sense. 我不认为你能以同样的方式来构想原始印欧语。
Richard Dawkins: I suspect that... in no moment... 我怀疑……在任何时候……
Richard Dawkins: Or, well, of course there was. 或者，好吧，当然有。
Richard Dawkins: But if there was a unique language that then spread throughout Europe and the Indian subcontinent by some kind of mysterious influence, it would have been a hybrid of some type, as one might well say of English, which is a mixture of Germanic and Romance languages. 但是，如果有一种独特的语言，然后通过某种神秘的影响传播到整个欧洲和印度次大陆，那它也必定是某种混合体，就像人们可以很好地形容英语一样，它就是日耳曼语和罗曼语的混合体。
Richard Dawkins: I bet that Proto-Indo-European was a hybrid of that type. 我敢打赌原始印欧语就是那种混合体。
Richard Dawkins: And ultimately, it's the envy of biology that makes linguists try to find a single... 归根结底，正是对生物学的羡慕，才让语言学家试图找到一个单一的……
John McWhorter: With that envy I wake up every day. 我每天醒来都伴随着这种嫉妒。
John McWhorter: You're right about Proto-Indo-European. 你对原始印欧语的看法是对的。
John McWhorter: We'll never know exactly. 我们永远无法确切知道。
John McWhorter: But there's no doubt that, surely, it was replete with words and grammar from other languages. 但毫无疑问，它肯定充满了来自其他语言的词汇和语法。
John McWhorter: I would say they are languages that are spoken today in the Caucasian mountains. 我会说它们是今天在高加索山脉地区使用的语言。
John McWhorter: It makes sense that it would be, because there were always conquests, and peoples mixed. 这很合理，因为总是有征服，人们总是会混杂在一起。
John McWhorter: It had to happen. 那必然会发生。
John McWhorter: So there was no pure Proto-Indo-European. 所以没有纯粹的原始印欧语。
John McWhorter: And I'll say even more: it's increasingly clear that Indo-European is composed of many languages, several dozens of languages. 我还要说更多：越来越清楚的是，印欧语系由许多语言组成，几十种语言。
John McWhorter: It's increasingly clear that they go back, at least, to two different dialects of Proto-Indo-European. 越来越清楚的是，它们至少可以追溯到原始印欧语的两种不同方言。
John McWhorter: I'm not going to go beyond that. 我不会再深入探讨。
John McWhorter: It's clear that it is so. 很明显就是这样。
John McWhorter: And all languages are hybrids at some point. 而且所有语言在某种程度上都是杂交的。
John McWhorter: However, I would say that, in theory, there would have been a Proto-Indo-European language that mixed, and became the others, and there was a constant mixture. 然而，我想说，理论上，应该存在一种原始印欧语，它经过混合，演变成了其他语言，并且一直存在着持续的混合。
John McWhorter: If I may, something like when you talk about the life of a gene, that it circulates among all kinds of different creatures in such a way that it's difficult to say exactly, and tell me if I'm wrong, that there was a proto-kangaroo, or rather a 原袋鼠 (Protomarsupial: 假想的祖先袋鼠，指有袋类哺乳动物的最早形式), and then a 原胎盘动物 (Protoplacental: 假想的祖先胎盘哺乳动物，指胎盘哺乳动物的最早形式), and then there was only one shrew. 恕我直言，这有点像你谈论基因的生命，它在各种不同的生物之间循环，以至于很难确切地说——如果我错了请纠正我——存在着一种原袋鼠，或者说一种原袋类动物，然后是一种原胎盘动物，接着就只剩下一种鼩鼱。
John McWhorter: My impression was that perhaps there were other shrews that contributed genes to both strains in evolution. 我的印象是，也许还有其他鼩鼱在进化过程中为这两个谱系贡献了基因。
Richard Dawkins: In previous generations. 在更早的世代中。
Richard Dawkins: What I said is that you can trace it to a single common ancestor. 我所说的是，你可以追溯到一个单一的共同祖先。
Richard Dawkins: It's true that you can go further back still. 确实，你还可以追溯到更远。
Richard Dawkins: And then, of course, genes will come from everywhere. 当然，基因会来自四面八方。
Richard Dawkins: By the way, in bacteria it's different. 顺便说一下，在细菌中情况有所不同。
Richard Dawkins: In the case of bacteria, it's very much like language, where you cut and paste all the time between the bacterial genomes. 就细菌而言，它非常像语言，你总是在细菌基因组之间进行剪切和粘贴。
John McWhorter: We can assume that there was always mixing. 我们可以假设一直存在着混合。
John McWhorter: The pure language would have been spoken for about ten minutes, probably somewhere in Africa, above what is today the Sahara, perhaps in East Africa. 纯粹的语言可能只存在了大约十分钟，可能在非洲的某个地方，在今天撒哈拉沙漠以北，也许在东非。
John McWhorter: After that, once you have more than one, there would have been 杂交 (Hybridization: 不同物种或遗传上不同的种群个体之间进行异种杂交的过程) between the two. 在那之后，一旦你拥有不止一种语言，两者之间就会发生杂交。
John McWhorter: There was always mixing as things progressed. 随着事态发展，总是存在着混合。
John McWhorter: So, basically, yes. 所以，基本上，是的。
John McWhorter: And you know what? 你知道吗？
John McWhorter: Richard, I think we've reached the limit of our time, which is regrettable, because I could go on until I expire. 理查德，我想我们已经到了时间限制，这很遗憾，因为我可以一直说到我精疲力尽。
John McWhorter: But we have limited time. 但我们的时间有限。
John McWhorter: Thank you very much for being here and making one of my life's fantasies come true. 非常感谢你来到这里，并实现了我人生中的一个梦想。
John McWhorter: It was wonderful. 这真是太棒了。
Richard Dawkins: Thank you very much. 非常感谢。