[music]: [音乐]
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[music]Natalie Kitroeff: 这里是《纽约时报》，我是纳塔莉·基特罗夫（Natalie Kitroeff）。
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From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroof.>>: 一场现实版的间谍惊悚剧。
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>> A real life spy thriller.>>: 这里是《The Daily》。
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>> This is the daily.>>: 听起来像美人计，也像一部非常精彩的电影。
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>> Sounds like a honey trap and a really good movie.>>: 一桩桃色与间谍丑闻正席卷一家美国科技巨头。
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>> Sex and spying scandal engulfing one of a US technology giant.>>: 我们必须谈谈英伟达（Nvidia）。这个故事令人难以置信。[音乐]
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>> We need to talk about Nvidia. This story is incredible. [music]Natalie Kitroeff: 今天，我们要讲述一个非同寻常的故事：英伟达的掌门人——
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Today, the extraordinary story of how the head of Nvidia,>>: 没错，半导体领域最显赫的人物，推动人工智能热潮的领军者——
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>> that's right, the biggest name in semiconductors, the man driving the AI boom was possible.>>: 这家处于人工智能革命中心的企业。坦白说，黄仁勋显然遭遇了来自中国的美人计——
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>> The company at the center of the AI revolution. To put it crudely, Jensen Huang was apparently honey trapped by China,>>: 最终承认自己[音乐]与一名被美国官员指控为中国间谍的女性有染。[音乐]
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>> came to admit that he'd [music] had an affair with a woman that US officials say is a Chinese [music] spy.>>: 看来黄先生需要向他的妻子、他的公司以及政府做出交代。我将与我的同事特里普·米克尔（Trip Mickle）展开对话，探讨这桩不断发酵的丑闻对首席执行官黄仁勋[音乐]、对他市值4万亿美元的公司，以及对全球人工智能霸权争夺战意味着什么。[音乐]
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>> It sounds like Mr. Wong has explaining to do to his wife, his company, and the government. I speak with my colleague Trip Mikl about what the growing scandal means for the CEO Jensen [music] Wong for his $4 trillion company and for the global battle for supremacy in artificial intelligence. [music]>>: 真是乱成一团。一团糟。
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>> What a mess. What a mess.Natalie Kitroeff: 今天是11月10日，星期二。[音乐]
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>> It's Tuesday, November 10th. [music]Natalie Kitroeff: 特里普，欢迎回到《The Daily》。
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>> Trip, welcome back to the Daily.Trip Mickle: 非常感谢邀请我。好的，我和其他人一样，完全被这个故事吸引住了，老实说它就像是电影里的情节。一名代表中国政府工作的间谍，通过与创始人发生婚外情，渗透进了世界上最具价值的公司之一。你和我们在《纽约时报》的许多同事一直在这篇报道上保持领先，我非常想了解所有细节。首先从它为何具有极高的重要性谈起。
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>> Thanks so much for having me. Okay, so I and I think everyone else have been completely glued to this story, which is honestly something out of a movie. It feels like this spy working on behalf of the Chinese government infiltrates one of the most valuable companies in the world by having an affair with its founder. You and many of our colleagues here at the times have been leading on this reporting and I want to know absolutely everything. Starting with why this matters at the highest level.英伟达在AI时代的关键地位与黄仁勋的个人影响力
Trip Mickle: 嗯，这个故事应有尽有，对吧？它包含了性、间谍和半导体。还有什么组合比这更引人入胜呢？但当你思考这个事件为何如此重要时，你必须审视过去三年里整个世界发生的改变。最根本的变化是人工智能，以及人们日益坚信人工智能将成为一场工业革命。而那场工业革命背后的推动者、赋予其实现能力的公司，正是英伟达。嗯。
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>> Well, this story has a little bit of everything, right? It's got sex and spies and semiconductors. Like what what can be more engrossing than that combination? But when you think about why this story matters, you have to look at what has changed in the world at large over the past three years. And the biggest fundamental change is artificial intelligence. And the increasing belief that artificial intelligence is going to be an industrial revolution. And the company behind that industrial revolution, the the company that's enabling it is Nvidia. Hm.Trip Mickle: 英伟达在用于构建和运行AI系统的芯片领域占据了90%的市场份额。所以每次你访问ChatGPT、Claude、Grok、Gemini或任何其他工具并输入查询时，你收到的回答中很有可能有一部分是由英伟达的技术提供支持的。正因如此，
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>> Nvidia has a 90% market share in the artificial intelligence chips that are used to build and run AI system. So every time you go to chat GPT or claude or Grock or anything Gemini, anything else and you put in a query, odds are some portion of that response that you get is powered by Nvidia's technology. And soTrip Mickle: 这对每个人都会产生影响。它对华盛顿的决策者有影响。它对美中关系产生地缘政治层面的影响。它对你、我和每一个拥有401(k)退休账户的人都有影响，因为英伟达不论从市值体量、在标普500指数中的权重，还是对人工智能未来走向的意义来看，都是一家如此庞大的公司，以至于股票市场简直就是跟着英伟达的交易走势在上下波动。好，所以这件事非常重要，不仅是因为它充满了令人浮想联翩的细节和曲折情节，更因为我们的许多经济健康状况都寄托在这个行业、这家公司之上，
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this has ramifications for everybody. It has ramifications for policy makers in Washington. It has, you know, geopolitical ramifications for the US China relationship. And it has ramifications for you, me, and everybody else who has a 401k because Nvidia is such a big company in terms of its value and in terms of its prominence in the S&P 500 and in terms of what it means to where artificial intelligence is going that the stock market literally it moves up and down based on how Nvidia is trading. Okay, so this story matters a lot and not just because it is filled with incredibly tantalizing details, twists and turns, but because a lot of our economic health is riding on this industry and on this companyTrip Mickle: 以及黄仁勋这个人身上。因此，你很难完全想象黄仁勋对人工智能以及这家公司本身究竟有多重要。他采用扁平化的管理架构，有60个人直接向他汇报。如果他明天被公共汽车撞了，没有任何明确的迹象表明谁会是他的接班人。而现在，他卷入了可以说是企业史上最具爆炸性的地缘政治争议之中。
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>> and on this one man, Jensen Wong. And so it's hard to begin to wrap your head around how important Jensen Wong is to artificial intelligence and this company itself. He has a flat structure with 60 direct reports. There's no clear indication of who his successor might be if he were to get hit by a bus tomorrow. And now he's become imshed in arguably the most explosive geopolitical controversy in corporate history.新加坡数据中心公司Mega Speed与芯片出口漏洞
Natalie Kitroeff: 好的，此时我们应该指出，昨天一位中国政府发言人否认了处于风暴中心的这名女性是中国间谍的说法，并斥责该报道纯属对中国的抹黑。不过让我们谈谈事情是如何发展到这一步的，世界上最具权势的CEO之一是如何卷入这样一场极具爆炸性、高风险的混乱之中的。这个故事是从哪里开始的？
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>> Okay, at this point we should note that yesterday a Chinese government spokesman rejected the claim that the woman at the center of all of this was a Chinese spy and dismissed the reporting as nothing but a smear against China. But let's talk about how we got to this place where one of the most powerful CEOs in the world gets tangled up in such an explosive highstakes mess. Like where does this story begin?Trip Mickle: 我们得把时间倒回去年八月，当时我和安娜·斯旺森（Ana Swanson）收到一位科技行业线人的消息，对方说：“嘿，你们真得放下手里所有事情，去查一家叫Mega Speed的公司。”这是一家新加坡的数据中心公司。也就是说，它实际上就是一家从英伟达购买芯片并建造数据中心的企业。从表面上看，并没有任何迹象表明我们需要放下手头工作、投入时间和资源去弄清这是一家什么公司以及它为何重要。但是在围绕AI芯片流向争议日益加剧的背景下，英伟达却在向这家公司出售芯片。美国政府多年来一直对美中之间谁将取得人工智能霸权的所谓“军备竞赛”感到担忧。当AI革命在2022年底爆发时，美国限制中国购买英伟达最顶尖的芯片和技术，目的是阻止中国制造出像美国公司所造那样精密完备的技术。[音乐]
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We have to back up to last August when Anna Swanson and I got a message from a tech industry contact of ours who said, "Hey, you really got need to drop everything and look at this company called Mega Speed." It's a Singaporean data center firm. I mean, it's literally a company that buys chips from Nvidia and builds data centers. And there's nothing about that on the surface that says this is something we should drop what we're doing and devote time and resources to figuring out what this company is and why it matters. But Nvidia is selling chips to this company at a time of increasing controversy over where AI chips go. The US government has been concerned for years about the arms race, so to speak, between the US and China over who's going to achieve supremacy and artificial intelligence. And when the AI revolution started in late 2022, the US had restricted China from buying Nvidia's best chips and best technology because it wanted to stop China from being able to [music] build technology that was as sophisticated and comprehensive as what US companies were building.Trip Mickle: 但这里存在一个巨大的漏洞，那就是英伟达可以将芯片卖给东南亚的公司，然后那些公司可以通过远程方式让中国公司访问该项技术。当我们开始调查Mega Speed时，很明显他们可以说是利用这一漏洞的典型代表。
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But there was a big loophole and that loophole was that Nvidia could sell chips to companies in Southeast Asia and that those companies could then provide access to that technology remotely to Chinese companies. And as we began to examine Mega Speed, it was pretty clear they're kind of the poster child for exploiting this loophole.Natalie Kitroeff: 怎么说？
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>> How so?Trip Mickle: 怎么讲呢？在大约两年的时间里，他们从英伟达购买了超过48亿美元的芯片。他们几乎一夜之间从一家默默无闻的公司变成了英伟达在该地区最大的客户之一。[音乐]而且，这是一家与中国有着明显联系的公司。因此，我们想进一步了解这些联系，便派我们驻台北的同事保罗·莫泽（Paul Mozur）前往新加坡实地探访Mega Speed的办公室。当他赶到时，发现办公室里只有两名员工。当他与他们交谈时，他们表示其绝大多数客户都是中国人，大部分管理层人员也是中国人，而且很少来新加坡。事实上，他们大多数人主要呆在中国。[音乐]这一点非常重要，因为当时英伟达向我们表示Mega Speed与中国并没有真正的联系。保罗随后还发现Mega Speed归一家空壳公司所有，他探访了那家空壳公司，发现它设在一家会计师事务所内，几乎就像是一个空壳公司制造工坊。这一切都让我们感到迷惑不解。
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>> How so? I mean, in the span of roughly two years, they had purchased more than $4.8 billion in chips from Nvidia. I mean, they went from being a company that nobody knew of overnight to a company that had become one of Nvidia's largest customers in the region. [music] And I mean, this was a company with clear ties to China. So, we wanted to learn more about those ties and dispatch our colleague Paul Moser from Taipei to Singapore to visit the Mega Speed office. And when he showed up, he found that there were only two employees at the office. And when he spoke to them, they said that most all of their customers were Chinese and most of the executives were Chinese and rarely came to Singapore. In fact, most of them stayed mostly in China. [music] This was significant because at the time Nvidia was telling us that Mega Speed didn't really have ties to China. Paul also went and found that Mega Speed was owned by a Shell company and he visited the Shell company and found that it was based in an accounting firm almost like a shell company mill. All this was mystifying for us.Natalie Kitroeff: 这不同寻常，仅仅是因为这样一家大公司为什么会挂在一间会计师事务所下面，
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>> Unusual just because why would such a big company be held with an accounting firm,Trip Mickle: 对吧？你买了48亿美元的芯片，你肯定会认为自己能负担得起独立的办公场所。对吧。[音乐]
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>> right? You're buying $4.8 billion of chips. you would think you could spring for your own office space. Right. [music]Natalie Kitroeff: 没错。
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>> Right.Natalie Kitroeff: 听起来你们发现围绕这家公司与中国的关联，以及它如何几乎凭空成为这些芯片的主要买家，存在着大量的疑问。
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>> So, it sounds like you're finding there are a lot of questions to be asked about this company's connections to China and how it became such a major buyer of these chips basically out of the blue.商务部调查与核心人物Alice Wong浮出水面
Trip Mickle: 是的，千真万确。随着我们深入调查这家公司，我们发现他们引起了商务部的怀疑，而商务部的官员负责追踪全球芯片的流向。于是他们派出调查人员走访了其中一个数据中心。当他们在2024年9月赶到现场时，发现Mega Speed仍有大量英伟达的技术设备堆在箱子里，这引发了人们的怀疑，认为这些技术被运入后再被转运到中国。这确实大大增加了这是一起走私行动而非仅仅是数据中心运营的可能性。
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>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and as we dug into this company and looked at it, we found that they had aroused the suspicions of the commerce department and commerce officials who are supposed to track where chips are going around the world. And so they dispatched investigators to visit one of the data centers. And when they showed up in September of 2024, they found that Mega Speed still had a lot of the Nvidia technology in boxes, which raised suspicion that that technology was being shipped in and then onward to potentially China. It really raised the prospects that this was a smuggling operation, not just a data center operation.Natalie Kitroeff: 引人入胜。而在这场风暴的中心，是这位名叫艾丽丝·王（Alice Wong，或Wongla）的女性，她是一名中国公民，在领英（LinkedIn）上自称是该公司的首席执行官，个人履历还显示她曾担任过电视记者。这让我们不禁产生疑问：她从哪里搞来这么多钱？她是如何掌管这家公司的？最重要的是，也是最令人费解的，她是如何与站在人工智能最前沿的黄仁勋走得如此之近的？
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>> Fascinating. And at the center of all of this was this woman named Alice Wong or Wongla, a Chinese citizen who claimed to be the company's chief executive officer on her LinkedIn and who had a biography that detailed that she used to be a TV journalist. And this just made us question how did she get all this money? How did she come to be in charge of this company? And then most of all and most mystifying, how does she get so close to Jensen Wong, the person who is at the forefront of artificial intelligence,Natalie Kitroeff: 在这一节点上，你们了解到的他们之间的关系有多亲密？关于这一点你们掌握了什么？
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>> how close a relationship are you aware that they have at this point? Like what do you know about that?Trip Mickle: 我们了解得不算多，但她曾数次与他合影，并在多个行业聚会上被拍到与他同框的视频。所以我们做了一些调查。我们采访了一位在台北一家酒吧的行业派对上给他们拍过照的男士。照片中黄仁勋坐在艾丽丝身旁，他们正准备举杯喝威士忌。拍照的先生是一位名叫帕克·施密特（Parker Schmidt）的科技高管。帕克在电话中说：“你知道那张照片最神奇的地方在于，当时我们正在派对上和艾丽丝闲聊，她说了类似‘我打赌我能把仁勋叫到这里来’这样的话。果不其然，几分钟后，仁勋就出现在了现场。”
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>> We don't know a lot, but she's been photographed with him on a few different occasions and videoed with him at various industry gatherings. And so we do some reporting. We speak to a man who took a photograph of them at an industry party at a bar in Taipei. And there's a photograph of Jensen sitting beside Alice uh as they prepared a toast whiskey. And the gentleman who took the photograph is a tech executive named Parker Schmidt. And Parker got on the phone and he said, "You know, the wild thing about that photo is we were hanging out with Alice at this party and she said something to the effect of, I bet I can get Jensen here." And sure enough, a few minutes later, Jensen showed up.Natalie Kitroeff: 这表明她可能至少有办法直接快速拨通他的电话之类的，
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>> An indication that I mean, she may have him on speed dial or something like that at least,Trip Mickle: 对吧？参加派对的其他人就是这么看待的。你必须记住，这是在台北。在这里他是摇滚明星中的摇滚明星，这是他一手建立并引领的行业。因此，能够转瞬之间召来该行业最重要的人物，确实引起了人们的注意。
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>> right? That was the way it was perceived by others at this party. And you got to remember like this is in Taipei. This is where he is rockar among rock stars and this is the industry that he is building and leading. So to be able to in moments summon the most important figure in the industry really catches people's attention.Natalie Kitroeff: 好的。那么你们发表了这篇报道之后发生了什么？
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>> All right. So you drop this reporting. What happens?Trip Mickle: 没发生什么大动静，一切很平静。英伟达继续与Mega Speed做生意，有一阵子我们没听到什么消息。然后大约一个月前，我们听说华盛顿负责国家安全报道领域的同事突然听到了关于艾丽丝·王的风声，她重新出现在了我们的视野中。我们开始展开调查，结果发现她已经受到美国监控大约一年甚至更久了。
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>> Not much. It's quiet. Nvidia keeps doing business with Mega Speed and we don't hear a lot for a while and then about a month ago we hear that our colleagues in Washington on the national security beat all of a sudden are hearing things about Alice Wong and she's resurfaced in our universe and we start to do some reporting and it turns out that she has been under US surveillance for about a year if not longerTrip Mickle: 在对她及其通信进行监控的过程中，美国情报机构认定她是向北京输送信息的中国线人。[音乐]
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And [music] in the course of surveilling her and her communication, US intelligence services have determined that she's a Chinese asset funneling information [music] to Beijing.Natalie Kitroeff: 一名间谍。
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>> A spy.Trip Mickle: 基本上就是一个间谍。[音乐]瞧，他们发现了什么？她在与黄仁勋保持联系。
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>> A spy, basically. [music] And lo and behold, who do they find out? She's in touch with Jensen Wong.Natalie Kitroeff: 我们稍后马上回来。
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>> We'll be right back.美国情报监控与白宫的反应
Natalie Kitroeff: 好的。所以你了解到，美国情报界在过去一年左右的时间里一直在监控这名他们怀疑是中国间谍的女性。他们知道这名女性与英伟达CEO黄仁勋频繁交流。关于两人关系的性质，他们掌握了什么？
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All right. So, you learn that the US intelligence community has for the past year or so been surveilling this woman that they suspect is a Chinese spy. They know this woman is talking quite a bit with Nvidia's CEO, Jensen Wong. What do they come to know about the nature of the relationship between these two?Trip Mickle: 他们知道两人关系非常密切，显然一直在共同做生意，而且[嗤笑]情报界的一些人怀疑两人的关系十分亲密。嗯。
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They know that they have a very close relationship, that they've obviously been doing business together, and that [snorts] some people in the intel community suspect that the relationship is intimate. Hm.Natalie Kitroeff: 这显然在美国政府内部拉响了警报，因为——
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>> And this obviously sets off alarm bells within the US government becauseTrip Mickle: 没错，你想想看——
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>> right, you'd thinkNatalie Kitroeff: 黄仁勋在过去的两年里，从一个甚至不认识特朗普总统的人，变成了特朗普总统最亲密的盟友之一，对美国的AI政策拥有巨大的发言权和影响力，并且经常与总统通电话，对吧？他们一直保持联系。我们最近看到黄仁勋在一场活动的舞台上接到了总统的电话并进行了现场通话。所以，
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>> Jensen Wong over the course of the past two years has gone from somebody who did not even know President Trump to one of President Trump's closest allies, who has a huge voice and influence over USI policy and who has regular phone calls with the president, right? Um they're in touch all the time. I mean, we saw recently Jensen Wong was on stage at an event and he got a call from the president and and took it live. So,Trip Mickle: 没错，
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correct,Natalie Kitroeff: 他们显然非常亲近。我猜测这些情报官员心中担忧或思考的问题是：艾丽丝·王试图从黄仁勋那里获取什么？她又设法从他那里搜集到了什么？
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>> they're clearly very close. And I assume that the worry or the question on the minds of these intelligence officers is what is Alice Wong trying to get out of Jensen and what does she manage to glean from him?Trip Mickle: 没错。美国情报界认定她是代表中国国家安全部工作的，那基本上就相当于他们的中央情报局（CIA）。
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>> Right. And the US intelligence community determines that she's working on behalf of China's Ministry of State Security, which is essentially their CIA.Natalie Kitroeff: 哇。
英文原文
>> Wow.Trip Mickle: 他们断定她试图了解更多关于美国AI芯片的信息。换句话说，也就是英伟达的独门秘笈，并有可能试图对美国面向中国的AI芯片政策施加影响。[音乐]换言之，鼓励仁勋尝试主张向中国提供更多AI芯片。这里的关切和担忧在于她离他极其接近，这意味着她可以接触到他的设备，可能随时与他沟通，可能实时就各种议题发表意见。我们无从得知具体情况，我们没有看到过监控记录，但你可以想象情报界在审查这些监控信息时感到极度纠结的那些问题。
英文原文
>> And they determine that she is trying to learn more about American AI chips. In other words, you know, Nvidia's magic and potentially trying to influence US policy [music] on AI chips for China. In other words, encouraging Jensen to try to advocate for China to get more AI chips. And the concern and the worry here is she's incredibly close to him, which means she could have access to his devices. She could be communicating with him at all times. She could be weighing in on issues in real time. We don't know. We haven't seen the surveillance, but you can imagine the type of questions that the intel community was agonizing over as it was reviewing the surveillance.Natalie Kitroeff: 那么他们查明这一点后采取了什么行动？他们是如何应对这一信息的？
英文原文
>> And so what do they do when they find this out? Like how do they respond to this information?Trip Mickle: 他们将其呈报到了最高层。他们在大约一年前向总统作了简报，通报黄仁勋与这名他们认定为中国间谍的女性存在密切关系，而总统选择按兵不动。
英文原文
>> They take it to the top. They briefed the president on this about a year ago and they let him know that Jensen Wong has a relationship, a close relationship with this woman who they've determined to be a Chinese spy and the president chooses not to do anything.Natalie Kitroeff: 你所说的他决定按兵不动，具体是指什么？实际情况是怎样的？
英文原文
>> And when you say he decides to not do anything, what do you mean by that? Like what exactly does that look like?Trip Mickle: 嗯，通常在类似情况下，如果有美国公民在这样的情报监控行动中浮出水面，联邦调查局（FBI）会为该当事人提供防御性简报，实质上是通知对方并告诫：“嘿，你需要警惕，你已经出现在监控中。我们知道与你交谈的人是情报行动的一部分。我们建议你最好并推测应与对方保持距离。”在这起事件中，并没有发生这种情况。仁勋没有收到相关通报。什么都没发生。字面上说，总统没有采取任何行动。
英文原文
Well, usually in circumstances like this, what happens for a US citizen that surface and surveillance in an intelligence operation like this is that the FBI would provide a defensive briefing for that individual, essentially notifying them and saying, "Hey, you need to be aware you have come up in surveillance. We know the person you're talking to is part of an intelligence operation. We suggest you probably presumably distance yourself from them." Um, in this instance, that is not what happened. Jensen was not notified about this. Nothing happened. Literally, the president took no action.Natalie Kitroeff: 为什么？为什么没有通知他？这样做的理由是什么？
英文原文
>> Why? Why wasn't he notified? What What's the justification for that?Trip Mickle: 对我们来说，去年秋天的那个时刻总统为什么不采取行动目前尚不清楚。我们不知道这是因为他们担心黄仁勋可能会向她透露风声，从而破坏监控，或者造成他们无法继续对她实施监控的局面（如果那是优先考虑的事项的话）；抑或是存在其他内情或动态。涉及的变量很多，我们必须记住，他是黄仁勋的亲密盟友，而且这位总统对股市的表现和经济的表现非常关注，而推动这两者的核心因素正是人工智能和英伟达。
英文原文
>> It's unclear to us in that time, in that moment last fall, why the president didn't take action. We don't know if that's because they didn't want potentially Jensen Wong to say something to her and then that kind of pollutes the surveillance or you know creates a situation where they're no longer able to surveil her if like that was a priority or if there was something else going on there's some other dynamic. I mean there are many variables at play and we have to remember he's a close ally of Jensen Wong and this is a president who is very aware of how the stock market is performing and the economy is performing and what is the one thing driving both of those things artificial intelligence and Nvidia.卢比奥备忘录、北京之行与丑闻曝光
Natalie Kitroeff: 好的，所以特朗普知情，美国政府也知情。接下来发生了什么？
英文原文
Okay, so Trump knows about it. The US government knows about it. What happens? What happens next?Trip Mickle: 我知道我们之前说过一次，但确实没发生太多事情。
英文原文
>> I I know we've said this once before, but not much.Natalie Kitroeff: 呵。
英文原文
>> Huh.Trip Mickle: 快进到春季，马尔科·卢比奥（Marco Rubio）要求获取关于该监控的情报更新。他起草了另一份备忘录，更加明确地指出她是一名中国间谍，正在为中国情报机构工作。这份备忘录发出的时间，就在特朗普总统启程前往北京与习近平举行峰会前不久。当美国政府拟定随行高管代表团名单时，有蒂姆·库克（Tim Cook），还有其他芯片公司高管。这是一份17人的名单，但遗漏了一个名字，那就是仁勋。他没有受到邀请。
英文原文
>> Fast forward to the spring and Marco Rubio asks for an update on the intelligence about the surveillance. and he drafts another memo and he makes it more clear that she is a Chinese spy, that she is working for China's intelligence services. And the timing of this memo is shortly before President Trump took off for his summit in Beijing with Xiinping. And when the US government pulls together its list of executive delegates to go on that trip, you have Tim Cook, you have other chip executives. It's a 17 person list, but there's one name that's omitted and that is Jensen. He's not invited.Natalie Kitroeff: 嗯。但我如果没记错的话，黄仁勋最终还是参加了这次中国之行。那是怎么回事？
英文原文
Hm. But if I'm not mistaken, Jensen Wong does end up going on this trip to China. So, what happened?Trip Mickle: 是的。在启程前往北京前的准备阶段，媒体报道了仁勋不在名单上的消息。总统决定在最后一刻向仁勋发出邀请，仁勋飞往阿拉斯加，在停机坪上登上空军一号，他们一同启程飞往北京。
英文原文
>> Yeah. I mean, in the run-up to the trip to Beijing, there's media coverage about Jensen not being there. The president decides to extend a last minute invitation to Jensen and Jensen flies to Alaska, meets Air Force One on the tarmac and boards and they take off together to go to Beijing.Natalie Kitroeff: 好的。这就引出了几周前你和我们的同事发表的这篇重磅报道，指出黄仁勋是这起中国间谍阴谋的目标。这就是他第一次发现自己被卷入这起全面监控的时候吗？
英文原文
>> Okay. So, I think that brings us to a couple weeks ago when you and our colleagues published this bombshell report saying that Jensen Wong was the target of this Chinese spy plot. Is this when he first figures out that he's been caught up in all this surveillance?Trip Mickle: 是的，在我们刊发的前一天，我们联系了英伟达并要求置评。他们的回应之一是，他们坚信如果美国政府认为任何人对美国产业构成威胁，必定会通知他们。换言之，美国政府并没有告诉过他们有关监控的事，也没有告诉过他们关于她是间谍的美国情报结论。当我们找他们就此事置评时，所有这一切对他们来说都是新鲜事。
英文原文
>> Yeah, the day before we went out with publication, we went to Nvidia and asked them for comment. And one of the things they said was that they were confident that if the US government believes that any person is a threat to American industry, it would let us know. In other words, the US government has not told us about this surveillance. It has not told us about this US intelligence conclusion that she is a spy. All of this is news to them when we go to them and ask them to comment on the story.Natalie Kitroeff: 你和黄仁勋本人谈过了吗？
英文原文
>> Did you talk to Jensen Wong himself?黄仁勋承认婚外情与董事会独立调查
Trip Mickle: 他没有直接回应我们的问询。公司发言人代表他向我们作了说明。但彭博新闻社（Bloomberg News）在我们的报道刊登后的第二天采访到了他。黄仁勋在接受彭博新闻社采访时表示，他与王女士的互动均与Mega Speed有关。引用原话：“这一切完全正常，并无异样。”引用结束。基本上，公司和黄仁勋本人都在传递一种“这里没什么好看的，没有任何异常”的信息。公司方面表示：“听着，如果这构成问题，我们早就知晓了。
英文原文
He didn't respond to our inquiries directly. His company spokesman spoke to us on his behalf. But Bloomberg News spoke to him a day after our story published. And one of the things that Jensen said in that interview with Bloomberg News was he said that his interactions with Miss Wong had been related to Mega Speed. Quote, "And it was all completely normal and not unusual." End quote. Basically, the company and Jensen Wong himself are saying nothing to see here. There's nothing unusual about this. The company is saying, "Look, if this was a problem, we would have known about it.Trip Mickle: 我们早就会收到通报。顺便说一句，这不过是一位首席执行官与一位客户保持往来，就像他与成千上万个客户保持关系一样，没有什么不寻常的。”但是他们的立场没能撑住，因为随着越来越多的媒体报道出现，形势开始收紧，黄仁勋决定他必须坦白。因此在刚过去的周末里，他向董事会和公司的全体员工宣布，他一直与这名女性保持着婚外情。他提到的话包括：“我对妻子不忠。我的行为伤害了她和我们的孩子们。我所做的一切无可推卸。我深感歉疚。”
英文原文
We would have been told. And by the way, this is just a chief executive having a relationship with a customer like he has relationships with thousands of customers. It's not unusual." But their position doesn't hold because as more and more press comes out, the news begins to tighten and Jensen Wong decides that he needs to confess. And so over the course of this past weekend, he let the board and every employee in the company know that he'd been having an affair with this woman. And one of the things he says is, "I was unfaithful to my wife. My actions hurt her and our children. There is no excuse for what I did. I am deeply sorry."Natalie Kitroeff: 他在那封电子邮件中有没有说明他事先是否知道这名女性是间谍？
英文原文
>> And does he say in that email whether or not he knew that this woman was a spy?Trip Mickle: 没有，他没有谈及那个层面的问题。事实上，他和公司所做的表态是他将继续领导这家公司。这既是一封致歉信，同时也是给那些仰慕他、崇拜他、深知他对公司运作至关重要的员工们的一剂定心丸。
英文原文
>> No, he doesn't address that dimension of it. In fact, what he actually does and what the company does is that they say he's going to continue to lead this company. You know, it's both a note of apology, but then also a note of reassurance to the people who work there who really look up to him and idolize him and know that he is absolutely critical to what that company does.Natalie Kitroeff: 嗯，想必对股票市场也是如此，对吧？股市高度依赖这家庞大公司的健康状况。
英文原文
>> Well, and also to the stock market presumably, right? Which is so dependent on the health of this one giant company,Trip Mickle: 对吧？整个市场突然必须面对关于黄仁勋未来是否还会继续领导这家公司的全新疑虑。尽管董事会试图通过再次声明他们认为没有任何问题、没有机密信息泄露给她等来安抚市场，但董事会已决定对两人的关系展开独立调查。黄仁勋对英伟达的领导权接受审查这一事实本身，就给公司的领导层前景带来了新的不确定性。
英文原文
>> right? And which all of a sudden has to make sense of this new fresh doubt about whether or not Jensen Wong will be leading this company going forward. And while the board tried to reassure the market by saying that it doesn't think once again that there was anything problematic that no classified information was shared with her etc. What the board has decided to do is open an independent investigation into the relationship and this whole concept of Jensen's leadership of Nvidia being open to scrutiny raises fresh doubt about the leadership of the company.调查核心议题：游说立场、政策影响与内部治理
Natalie Kitroeff: 所以在这场调查中，我推测他们正在关注的一部分内容正是大家共同的疑问：艾丽丝·王到底有多成功？她是否能够在美方AI政策上对仁勋施加影响？总体而言，她究竟能从他那里套取多少信息？关于这两点我们了解多少？
英文原文
So, in this investigation, I have to assume that part of what they're looking at here is the question that we all have, which is how successful was Alice Wong? Was she able to influence Jensen on USAI policy? And in general, how much information was she able to glean from him? What do we know about those two things?Trip Mickle: 这场调查需要涵盖你刚才提到的从微观到宏观的整个范围。微观层面上是英伟达与Mega Speed商业往来的性质，这突然之间需要由公司自行展开调查。而在宏观层面上，是她在影响黄仁勋的政策立场及其在华盛顿的游说主张方面可能取得了多大成效，因为这也是公司自身拥有重大利益并持续投入的领域。而在那个问题上，我们知道仁勋在对华销售芯片上的立场并没有改变。在整个AI繁荣时期，黄仁勋一直在持续主张向中国销售更多芯片。
英文原文
This investigation is going to have to run the gamut from the micro questions to the macro that you just raised. And the micro ones are what was the nature of Nvidia's business dealings with Mega Speed. All of a sudden, that needs to be investigated by the company itself. And then on the macro side, it's how successful might she have been in influencing Jensen Wong's policy position and his advocacy in Washington because that's something that the company has also had a stake in and been invested in as well. And on that issue, we know that Jensen's position on selling chips to China has not changed. Jensen Wong has been consistent in advocating to sell more chips to China throughout this kind of AI boom period.Natalie Kitroeff: 对吧？他确实坚信，美国要保持在人工智能领域的领先地位，唯一的办法就是阻止中国公司开发出具有竞争力的芯片，那些芯片可能售价更低，或者性能可能超越英伟达、AMD等公司生产的产品。而目前美企的产品在能耗和性能方面远远优于中国提供的产品。
英文原文
>> Right? He really believes that in order for the US to remain preeminent in artificial intelligence, that the only way to do that is to prevent Chinese companies from developing competing chips that they may sell for less or that may outperform what Nvidia and AMD and others produce, which are right now by far and away much better in terms of like the power they consume and the performance that they offer compared to what the Chinese offer.Natalie Kitroeff: 对。你之前在节目中谈到过，黄仁勋一直希望在这个市场上保持主导地位，并且他认为实现这一目标的方法就是向中国出售芯片，让他们依赖美国制造的芯片。听你的意思，很难分辨到底是不是艾丽丝·王在对黄仁勋施加影响，因为这本就是他本来就想做的事——向中国销售。
英文原文
>> Right. You've you've talked about this on the show before that Wong has long wanted to remain dominant in this market and that he believes the way to do that is to sell chips to China so they become reliant on US-made chips. And what you're saying it sounds like is that it's hard to parse whether Alice Wong was influencing Wong when this is something that he kind of already wanted to do. sell to China.Trip Mickle: 完全正确。但这里有一个需要注意的细节。现在，我们必须带着一条全新的信息，重新审视这整整两年的政策呼吁和游说活动。那就是在他极力推动此事的同一时期，他有一位对这些目标抱有既得利益的中国情妇。
英文原文
>> That's completely right. But there's a caveat here. Right now, we have to look back at this entire two years of advocacy and lobbying and we have to look at it through a new lens with a new piece of information. And that is that while he was pushing for this, he had a Chinese mistress with a vested interest in those same objectives.Natalie Kitroeff: 特里普，你早些时候告诉我们，英伟达这家公司实际上完全由黄仁勋一人掌控，他对这家公司的控制力极大，可能超过了大多数CEO。我想象随着董事会着手对此展开调查，这会让他们陷入非常棘手的境地。你会觉得董事会很有动机不想去动摇局面、不想打破公司的领导架构。
英文原文
Trip, you told us earlier that this company, Nvidia, is really run by this one man, Jensen Wong, that he has a ton of control, maybe more than most CEOs, over this one company, which I'd imagine puts the board in a pretty tough spot as they go to investigate this. You'd think there are a lot of incentives there to not want to rock the boat, to disrupt the company's leadership.Trip Mickle: 确实如此。这是一个对仁勋非常顺从的董事会，他们这种态度是有原因的。这个人在几年前将公司从不足1万亿美元的市值带到了超过4万亿美元的估值。在此过程中，他也让这些董事会成员中的许多人变得极其富有，因为其中不少人是英伟达的早期投资者，他们从一开始就出资支持了英伟达。英伟达的架构存在单点故障风险。他手下有60个直接汇报人，没有明确的接班人，也没有真正的B计划。所以如果谈到后果，比如他会不会被解雇？会不会被停职？我们或许可以猜测这些结局，但鉴于董事会的性质以及他对公司未来的极端重要性，很难想象事情会以这种方式收场。
英文原文
>> Correct. This is a board that has been very differential to Jensen. And they've been differential for a reason. I mean, this guy took this company from being worth less than a trillion dollars a few years ago to being worth more than $4 trillion. In the process, he's made a lot of these board members really, really wealthy as well because a number of them were early investors in Nvidia. They bankrolled it at the outset. Nvidia is set up with a single point of failure. I mean, he has 60 direct reports. there's no clear successor and there's no real plan B. So, the repercussions like could he be fired? Could he be suspended? We could kind of puzzle over like those outcomes, but it's really hard to think that that's where this ends up given the nature of this board and given the importance he holds for the future of that company.特朗普的态度与美国国会的政治追责
Natalie Kitroeff: 那特朗普总统那边呢？这一切对黄仁勋在总统心目中的地位产生了看得见的影响吗？
英文原文
>> What about for President Trump? Has any of this had an visible impact on Jensen Wong's standing with the president?Trip Mickle: 目前来看，似乎完全没有造成影响。在黄仁勋披露自己有婚外情后的周日，他发表了讲话，为仁勋进行了辩护。他说他下次去中国可能还会带上他。[音乐]
英文原文
>> At this moment, it seems like water off a duck's back. I mean, he spoke on Sunday after Jensen Wong revealed that he'd had the affair and he defended Jensen. He said that he would probably take him on the next trip to China.Natalie Kitroeff: 噢。
英文原文
>> Oh.Trip Mickle: 他还说，引用原话：“我没听说他做错了什么。他与某个人打交道，但你知道，其他人也一样。”
英文原文
>> And he also said, quote, "I haven't heard he's done anything wrong. He dealt with somebody, but you know, so does everybody else.Natalie Kitroeff: 意思是这种事情很寻常。这就是总统想表达的意思，
英文原文
>> Meaning this kind of stuff just happens. That's what the president is saying,Trip Mickle: 我猜是这样。
英文原文
>> I guess. So,Natalie Kitroeff: 我想了解一下这一切发生的时间节点，因为现在民主党在1月份即将进入国会占据新的多数席位。这似乎可能导致华盛顿对整件事采取更加激进的手段。我们该预期什么？
英文原文
>> I want to ask about the timing of all of this because now we have these new Democratic majorities coming into Congress in January. That seems as though it could lead to a more aggressive approach in Washington toward all of this. What should we expect?Trip Mickle: 对于黄仁勋而言，时机的选择简直不能更糟糕了。参议院刚刚变天，这意味着来自马萨诸塞州的民主党参议员伊丽莎白·沃伦（Elizabeth Warren）将接管参议院银行委员会。他们负责芯片的海外出口事务。她将执掌木槌，而且她有近乎百分之百的可能会要求他去作证。今年早些时候她就已经要求他前往参议院银行委员会作简报，当时他拒绝了。如今我们可能处在一个他别无选择的境地。更进一步说，在她拿到法槌之前，我们刚刚经历了一场中期选举，多数美国人向华盛顿发出了强烈信号：他们对硅谷影响华盛顿政策（特别是AI政策）感到厌倦。而黄仁勋正是AI的代言人。因此在年底前，任何想在科技议题上得分的人，无论是共和党人还是民主党人，都有了一个可以传唤的目标。我们已经看到三位共和党人表示他们希望得到仁勋的简报。所以风暴来得很迅猛，正在实时演变成型。
英文原文
I mean, the timing of this couldn't have been worse if you're done so wrong. I mean, the Senate just flipped and that means that the Democratic senator from Massachusetts, Senator Elizabeth Warren, is going to be taking over the Senate Banking Committee. They have responsibility for uh export of chips abroad. And she will have to gabble and there's almost I don't know 100% chance that she asked him to testify. She's already asked him to come in and brief the Senate Banking Committee earlier this year and he declined. I mean, we may be at a point now where he doesn't have a choice. And then if you step back even further before she even gets the gavvel, we just had a midterm election where most of America sent a strong message to Washington that it was fed up with Silicon Valley's influence over Washington policy, particularly on AI. And Jensen Wong's the face of AI. So, anybody looking to score points right now, whether it's Republicans or Democrats on tech before the end of the year, they have somebody they can bring in. And we've already seen three Republicans say that they want a briefing from Jensen. So, this is coming fast and it's changing and taking shape in real time.Natalie Kitroeff: 好的。特里普，我这里有一个可能看起来故意带挑衅性的问题，但请听我说完。如果事实证明，这名被怀疑是中国间谍的女性实际上并没有从黄仁勋那里获取太多信息，而黄仁勋推动更宽松的美国对华芯片销售政策是因为他自己想这么做，而不是受她的影响，那么这一切造成的损害究竟是什么？
英文原文
>> All right. I have what may seem like an intentionally provocative question here, Trip, but bear with me. If it turns out that this woman that they suspect is a Chinese spy didn't actually glean all that much from Wong and that Wong pushed for a more lenient US policy towards selling chips to China because he wanted to, not because of her influence, what then would be the damage that has been done from all of this?Trip Mickle: 他陷入了妥协脆弱的境地。立法者、特朗普政府内部人士听取他的意见时，怎能不在脑海深处考虑这一点？这给每个人心中都播下了疑虑，怀疑他所说的话、怀疑他是否诚实，这也表明他是存在弱点的，对吧？过去三年里，这个人简直有点石成金的魔力，从不犯错。
英文原文
>> He's been compromised. How can lawmakers, people in the Trump administration, listen to him and not have this in the back of his mind? It it sews doubt for everyone about what he says, whether he's being honest, and it also shows that he's vulnerable, right? I mean, this is a guy that had minus touch. He could do no wrong the last three years.Natalie Kitroeff: 而这是一次重大失误。
英文原文
>> And this is a major misstep.Trip Mickle: 一次重大失误，可能会迫使他在未来数月以及明年花费时间为过去的事情作证，而不是集中精力决定和设计人工智能芯片以及[音乐]未来人工智能的变革。对于这家公司、对于美国经济、对于人工智能来说，这都是一个真正的拐点，因为我们不知道在此之后前方会是怎样的局面。我们看待黄仁勋的方式已经被彻底改变了。
英文原文
a major misstep that could wind up forcing him to spend time in the coming months and next year testifying about the past rather than focusing on deciding and designing the artificial intelligence chips and [music] the artificial intelligence changes of the future. This is a real inflection point for [music] the company, for the US economy, for artificial intelligence because we don't know what lies ahead after this point. The way we see Jensen Wong has changed forever.Natalie Kitroeff: 好的，特里普，非常感谢你。[音乐]十分荣幸。
英文原文
>> Well, Trip, thank you so much. [music] It's been a pleasure.Trip Mickle: 感谢邀请。
英文原文
They drive me.Natalie Kitroeff: 我们稍后马上回来。[音乐]
英文原文
[music] >> We'll be right back.今日其他重要新闻简报
Natalie Kitroeff: 以下是今天您还需要了解的其他要闻。
英文原文
>> Here's what else you need to know today.>>: “以重大罪行和不端行为弹劾国防部长皮特·布赖恩·赫格塞斯（Pete Brian Hegseth）。”周一，众议员托马斯·马西（Thomas Massie）采取行动，推动就弹劾国防部长皮特·赫格塞斯进行表决。[音乐]来自肯塔基州的共和党人马西在5月的初选中败给特朗普总统支持的挑战者后即将离开国会，他提出了针对赫格塞斯的八项弹劾条款。[音乐]该决议称赫格塞斯在诸多方面滥用职权，指控他未经国会授权擅自开展对伊朗的战争，以及在拉丁美洲针对毒贩实施非法打击，违反了联邦法律。赫格塞斯否认了这些指控，[音乐]称弹劾行动是政治闹剧。如果众议院通过这些指控，该议案将移交参议院。
英文原文
>> Impeaching Peter Brian Hegsathth, Secretary of Defense for high crimes and misdemeanors. On [music] Monday, Representative Thomas Massie moved to force a vote on impeaching [music] Secretary of Defense Pete Hgsith. Massie, the Kentucky Republican who said to leave Congress after losing his primary in May to a challenger backed by President [music] Trump, introduced eight articles of impeachment against Hegsth. [music] The resolution said that Hexath had abused his authority on many fronts, accusing him of violating federal law by carrying out the war with Iran without congressional authorization [music] and carrying out unlawful strikes against drug traffickers in Latin America. Hegs has rejected the allegations, [music] calling the impeachment effort a political sham. If the House approves the charges, the measure will go to the Senate.>>: 此外，加利福尼亚州选民否决了第40号提案，从而否决了建立全美首个财富税的举措。该提案原计划对该州亿万富翁的个人资产征收一次性5%的税款，并将大部分收入用于医疗保健。[音乐]但由于支持者联盟薄弱，无法与反对该提案、资金充裕的广告宣传活动相抗衡，该提案最终未获通过。
英文原文
And [music] California voters rejected Proposition 40, killing a measure that would have [music] created the nation's first wealth tax. The proposal would have imposed a one-time 5% tax on the personal assets of billionaires in the state and devoted most of the revenue to healthcare. [music] But it suffered from having a weak coalition of supporters who couldn't compete with a well-funded ad campaign attacking [music] the measure.Natalie Kitroeff: 本期节目由奥利维娅·纳特（Olivia Natt）、莱克西·迪奥（Lexi Diao）和埃里克·克鲁普克（Eric Krupke）制作。[音乐]佩奇·考伊特（Paige Cowitt）和利佐·巴林（Liz O. Baylen）编辑。音乐由丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）、罗恩·内莫托（Rowan Nemoto）和玛丽安·洛扎诺（Marian Lozano）创作，阿莉莎·莫克斯利（Alyssa Moxley）混音。[音乐]我们的主题音乐来自Wonderly。特别鸣谢安娜·斯旺森（Ana Swanson）。[音乐]这就是今天的《The Daily》。我是纳塔莉·基特罗夫。[音乐]明天见。