社交媒体是否助长了人口贩运？加拿大C-34法案与在线剥削的现实困境

Jeyan Jeganathan: Kids and teenagers spend a huge part of their lives online. Most of us do, but the internet is full of hazards, especially for young people. Bullying, anxiety, depression and luring and grooming, which researchers say now happens mostly online. All of this is why the federal government introduced Bill C-34 back in June. It's called the Safe Social Media Act. It hasn't been passed yet, but it would ban anyone under 16 from creating social media accounts unless platforms have certain protections in place. But would that actually make young people safer? Then we look at what this issue can mean for communities here in Ontario through the largest human trafficking investigation in Halton police history. I'm Jeyan Jeganathan welcome to The Rundown. Social media has changed how kids connect to the world, but it has also changed how traffickers can reach them. Could platforms be doing more to protect kids and teens? And what kind of difference would a social media ban make? Julia Drydyk. Marissa Cocoros, thank you so much for joining us in our studios. Really appreciate it, Julia, as the executive director of the Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking, what does human trafficking actually look like today? When we talk about the digital space?

Julia Drydyk: So unlike what you see in the movies, it does not often involve kidnapping or moving people across borders. Human trafficking looks far more like intimate partner violence in Canada. So specifically, when we're talking about sex trafficking, we're seeing a lot of trends around luring and grooming often where someone will look for someone with vulnerabilities in their lives, find out what their greatest fears and aspirations are, love bomb them, and then use that as a tool to kind of lure and groom them into the commercial sex industry. Increasingly, we're seeing this take place online, and so I once talked to a law enforcement officer that said, it's just like casting a net. You're looking for youth that are out there posting online that they're feeling self-conscious. They've got problems in their social group. No one understands them. They're alone. And then through their DMs and messages, we're seeing that kind of systematic preying on young people as part of this bigger kind of, you know, strategy of luring them into the commercial sex industry.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Help me understand, I guess, from a from a traffickers perspective, like, what are these initial messages like? How does this interaction happen? At the end of the day, these are strangers who are interacting with strangers. They are, you know, looking at those vulnerabilities. But what is that actual? These are all happening on DMs in private conversations, for the most part.

Julia Drydyk: Well, but young people are putting a lot out there in the public domain, and they're not necessarily protecting their profiles either. Right. So they're posting stuff that can be accessible to almost anyone. And they might be saying, I feel so ugly today. No one likes me. I feel like there's nowhere to go. And then they'll drop in in a DM and say, I don't know what you're talking about. You're beautiful. I've never seen anyone so great. Look at that smile. And again, because they're so few like restrictions and because of how out of control things are on social media, youth are putting way too much out there. And it's just like they're ripe for the picking when it comes to predators and people trying to take advantage of that.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Marissa, as a founder of an Organization that works to eradicate violence against women, what makes victims particularly vulnerable online to traffickers?

Marissa Cocoros: Well, traffickers fill a need, so there isn't a trafficker out there that doesn't know how to find exactly what it is you are lacking or missing and filling that need. They're not smarter than you or I, but they can scan a room or scan an Instagram post and find out what your needs are. Whether you know your needs are social needs, whether they're financial needs, whether they you don't have belonging or love in your life, whether you come from a marginalised community, you're facing homelessness or food insecurity. So traffickers know exactly what you're lacking, and then they fill that need. It's really hard to traffic someone who's enjoying a life of health, wellness, love, belonging, community. It takes too long, right? The traffickers are not going to spend so much time on that person. They're going to move on. And so that's where we need to focus when it comes to human trafficking. And that's the traffickers know exactly what they're doing.

Jeyan Jeganathan: When we talk about human trafficking, just to get a sense of demographics, can you give us a range? Are we talking age? When we talk about gender? What are we looking at here?

Julia Drydyk: So with sex trafficking, again, anyone can experience it. We do know that young men and trans folks are also trafficked, but overwhelmingly it's girls. Young girls. We don't have a specific age, but it's typically between the ages of 14 to 29. And there's a real relationship too, between like experiences of young sexual exploitation and then being trafficked. So again, to what Marissa was saying, traffickers are also kind of looking for that in terms of their own vulnerabilities and soft spots and taking advantage of it, often providing them a sense of safety before they end up kind of really digging their claws and, and making it an incredibly unsafe experience.

Jeyan Jeganathan: And safety isn't just like, as you examples those compliments, its financial in many cases, it could be housing. In some cases a place away from family. If that's not necessarily a place to be.

Julia Drydyk: Yeah. And we're also seeing it in terms of luring and grooming from remote communities and rural communities, right? So a lot of times it's promise of the city life, right? Like come to the city, we're going to show you a great time. You're going to be able to live the lifestyle you've always dreamed of. So there's a bunch of different dynamics in terms of how traffickers are targeting folks.

Jeyan Jeganathan: All right. I want to delve into Bill C-34. Marissa, the federal government is proposing a as part of it, a digital safety commission that would oversee regulate big tech AI chatbot services from online harms. A step in the right direction. Where do we think?

Marissa Cocoros: I think we can all agree that something needs to be done. We can't continue on in the way that we've been going. Big tech needs to be held accountable. Is this bill a step in the right direction? Is it part of the puzzle? Yes. Is it the answer to sexual exploitation? Human trafficking, online misogyny, violence against women? Absolutely not. But yes, it is a step in the right direction. There are holes in the bill and we can see them already coming out from Australia. So the age verification process, I know that a lot of folks are interested in that, right? As parents of young kids. And what we're seeing out of Australia is that 8 in 10 children under 16 are still using social media. Despite the ban.

Jeyan Jeganathan: If you want to. Use it, get around an age. If you want something, you're going to probably try to find a way to get around.

Marissa Cocoros: Yeah. And moreover, the bill allows or is proposing to allow tech companies to get around the age verification if they can show that there are protections in place for children. In my opinion, what we need to do is come down with an iron fist on Big tech. They have been profiting clear cut profits from the exploitation and trauma of children for way too long. Knowingly. We can't say that they don't know anymore. They do. And so this bill. Yes. So yes, it's a step in the right direction. But the accountability needs to be there.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Now on, as we mentioned, proposal here. But there are some fines there and they're pretty significant. I know these are tech companies. We're talking millions here, but there are some fines that go from ten, 15, $20 million. Not enough.

Marissa Cocoros: No. It's a slap on the wrist. These these guys have endless money. So I don't think that it's I don't think it's enough. No.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Okay. Julia, when you let me get your take first on Bill C-34. But I do want to compare what we're seeing on the ground versus what's in the bill. Is there a disconnect?

Julia Drydyk: So in terms I think it all comes down to how it's implemented. Right. And so a lot of it sounds good even in the development of this new commission, which is going to have like the most sweeping powers that we've ever seen in terms of web regulator at this stage, how proactive are their investigations going to be? Is it adequately staffed? It's the same thing that we're seeing with law enforcement across Canada. Is that even where you've got the best intelligence units, there aren't enough resources to follow the leads. You're not really going to get much further. So I think a lot of it still comes up to how it's being implemented. I am concerned that, especially with the identification and luring and grooming of young people, I'm not sure this is going to get to that. I think what it actually does is address things from a downstream perspective. So once those images of sexual exploitation are already up on the internet or up on their social media platform, they're supposed to take them down within 24 hours. They're now responsible for some type of recourse when something bad has already happened. To Marissa's point, I don't think it's actually going to stop predators from being able to identify you before we get to that point. Now, having said that, we've heard it far too many times from survivors who basically have images of their rape up on social media platforms and they can't get it down. Right. So of course, that's a step in the right direction. It's terrible what we've been kind of living in up until this point. But I do I do think that it's not going to do much in terms of actually preventing that, that identification and lowering.

Jeyan Jeganathan: I am curious with the work that you both do, is it hard to get these images off? Like, is this is there a formal process? What is?

Marissa Cocoros: Listen, the technology is there. If I can upload a song that has copyright, you know, behind it or a video of, you know, something that I did with a song behind it, it's taken down within seconds. Correct. The technology exists. The will does not. Once again, the accountability needs to be there. We are at the point where we can put Big tech in the same category as the traffickers themselves. They profit off scrolling, doom scrolling. The longer you're on the algorithm, the more money they make they profit off of very violent and hateful people uploading hate speech, violent pornography, depicting children, Csam, which is child sexual abuse material. They know about this. The technology exists. The will does not. The more we scroll, the more we look at these images, the more money they make.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Is that essentially what we're seeing in terms of it's like when you are working with people who have been trafficked, is are you spending time? Is it on your phones trying to figure out how is that part of this process? It is let alone.

Julia Drydyk: There's no one clear cut way like often we're referring to legal clinics or other agencies that specialise in this stuff, but it's not like there's a singular channel where you're like, there's, there's materials of me out there that have the potential to destroy my life and that are destroying my life right now. I need them taken down. There's no way. And we get calls like this from parents, from teachers. No one knows what to do at this point. And I think it's because we've been making these social media companies self-police. And it's a black box. So you put in a complaint and then you have no idea.

Marissa Cocoros: Or you have these small organisations that are looking to work with survivors to have those images taken down. And they're, they're salmon swimming upstream. They are working against big tech. And it is it's not a fair fight. It's like a featherweight and a heavy weight. So again, the regulation must be very, very strict. And I don't think fiscal regulation is is enough.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Well, one thing that's interesting about Bill C-34 is that it explicitly addresses harms like cyberbullying. There's non-consensual sharing of sexual content, content of sexually victimised children, but does not specifically mention human or sex trafficking. How closely connected are these issues? We've kind of talked about a little bit, but how closely connected is this? Is it not saying human trafficking, sex trafficking, is that a missed opportunity here? That or is this we're not taking it as seriously as it could be. We're not naming it.

Marissa Cocoros: Yeah, that's a great question. I think we're at the. Second reading and at the committee stage. That stage will be crucial for this bill. The committee is when a study, a full study is done, witnesses can be called, briefs can be submitted, and they can look at this bill and say from experts, from survivors and say, poke holes in it, what needs to be changed or hopefully. Right. And at that point, we can say you need to include human trafficking. But again, that will not end human trafficking. So the preventative approach is needed. And, you know, they, they need to stop paying influencers to create harmful content. They need to.

Jeyan Jeganathan: What do you mean by that?

Marissa Cocoros: So meta, for example, has influencers, let's say, let's just talk about the manosphere, right? And we talk about influencers that are contributing to violence against women, encouraging rape, encouraging femicide. And these people have a platform online and they are part of the algorithm and they're part of the, the endless scrolling and they make meta money. So if you can pull once again, a song off for copyright, you can. Why are we allowing violent, hateful people to access our children through their screens? And once again, oh, but how can they possibly know? But it's so big. But you know, it's the Wild West, right? As as we mentioned before, no, it's not the technology exists. It's the will that does not.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Well, you mentioned prevention. So let's talk a little bit about prevention here. What does prevention actually look like in practice before someone is targeted.

Julia Drydyk: So I personally think that we've been putting way too much of the onus on kids. I think a lot of it goes to kids. And I don't know if you remember, I grew up in the 90s where it's like, don't talk to strangers, don't get lured into a white van with candy. We're really trying to equip kids with the tools to be able to be impervious to these predators. That's not enough, and it is not fair. These are kids. They are not responsible for their own safety. We also hear almost every day on the hotline, parents have no idea what to do. They are without resources. They don't know how to have these conversations. They don't know how to monitor their kids online behaviour. And also because everyone's on different pages right now, it almost doesn't matter because they're just going to find another way to access the content or be involved one way or another. So this legislation is really important to hold the platforms accountable and to look at the environment we're in. I was telling co-workers today, it's like you've got those kids with those little arm floaties, and it's like you're throwing them in the middle of a tsunami, right? Like if we can change that to it being a kid safe pool and not, you know, the middle of the ocean with a hurricane, we're a little bit better off. But you need a multi-pronged approach to be able to address it. And it's not just going to be from the tech company side. It's got to be community based, but we need to make sure that there's the tools and resources and supports there, because even teachers have no idea what to do in this situation. Like we're, we're at a kitchen table right now. Regular Canadians are not equipped with the conversation to have this conversation at their kitchen tables.

Marissa Cocoros: I think that, you know, the phone is an extension of society, the exploitation of of women and children and marginalised people has always happened, has been happening for a very long time. I, a freedom our our Organization, we have a little bit of a different approach. And we're not the only ones that, that believe that we really need to zoom out a lot further. So addressing colonialism and racism and misogyny is ending human trafficking, addressing homelessness, addiction, childhood trauma, child abuse, and, and food insecurity is addressing and ending human trafficking, addressing gender inequality and gender norms, and patriarchal thoughts about women and boys, women and men and boys and girls and everyone in between. That's addressing human trafficking. Every single bill that comes out promises to end some type of crime or human rights abuse. There is no bill that will do that. It takes a systemic, preventative approach, a paradigm shift that governments finally say, and it's going to take a long time. We're not going to end human trafficking. Julia and I are both going to pass away, and it will still be happening. But if we're doing what we're saying, we need to do, the gears will be in motion to see generational change later on. That's the solution to ending human trafficking. This bill is needed. We have to address the tool itself, which now, you know, human trafficking has changed. We have to address it. But the long way home is the way home we need to take. And it's never been done before. And that's why this is still happening.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Julia mentioned parents and teachers as well, and they will very well be listening to this conversation, and they want to help them have some tools in the tool belt. What should parents, teachers, guardians be looking at? What is it? Is it a simple conversation? Where do they go?

Marissa Cocoros: Conversations are great and no one has the I'm, I'm, I work in this space. I'm also a parent and we work with school boards as well. Conversations are great. There is training out there. There are many tools out there that some of our organisations have created specifically for educators to help them have these tough conversations. It should happen at home, but sometimes what's happening at home is making that young person vulnerable to human trafficking. Sometimes teachers are also involved in abuse. What we again, the paradigm shift. But what can happen is conversations with young people where the onus is not put on them to stay safe and to not be exploited, but to talk about the realities of what's happening around them, and that they will always have support, and that if they think they're in trouble, they won't be in trouble with you.

Julia Drydyk: I also want to add that the first person to know when something bad is going on is often not a parent or a teacher. It's their friends.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Julia. Marissa, I want to thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time for very important conversation.

Marissa Cocoros: Thank you so much.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Trafficking isn't just a problem that exists online. We got a reminder of that recently in Halton Region. Project Troubadour not only marks the largest human trafficking case in the history of Halton Regional Police, it represents our enduring commitment to stand in solidarity with survivors, protect our community and hold offenders accountable. Project Troubadour resulted in nine arrests and 85 charges. Police have identified 12 victims so far. And Morgan, great to have you in our studios. How are you doing?

Morgan: Good. Thank you for having me.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Now you work in sexual assault and violence intervention in the Halton region. I want to get sort of your reactions. First off, when you heard about Project Troubadour, what did you think?

Morgan: So I think I had a couple reactions when I heard about Project Troubadour. So I think for folks who are working in the community, it wasn't a surprise to us because, you know, we have anti-human trafficking case workers that are working on the ground and we see it every day. I think the thing that is more surprising within wider Halton region is that we often, when we go into the community, a lot of folks don't realise that human trafficking is happening in Halton region. So I think the fact that it was the largest I think, bust of human trafficking in Ontario was like a real surprise to the community. I think the other thing that really struck me was just that it was a case that happened because a survivor came forward, and I think that's incredibly brave of the survivor. And we know that we have to create more conditions that make it safe for survivors to come forward and know that they'll be believed, and they'll be supported with services when they do reach out to support.

Jeyan Jeganathan: I want to talk when we talk about sort of the scale of this, this was a ten month long investigation. We're talking nine people charged over 80 charges. What does a case of this scale tell us about the reality of trafficking communities like Halton?

Morgan: I think, again, the scale tells us that it's not this abstract concept that is happening elsewhere, but that we are seeing it day to day within the Halton region. I also think it's important to note that human trafficking is one of the most underreported crimes. And we know that because often people might not feel safe coming forward, they may not trust authorities. There may be dependencies on the trafficker or even that emotional attachment that creates barriers for survivors coming forward. So I know one of the things that the police press release mentioned was that there's definitely more survivors out there. I think there was 12 in total that came forward. So I don't even think, you know, police reported crime is only a tip of the iceberg in terms of what we're seeing of human trafficking within the Halton region.

Jeyan Jeganathan: When we talk about Halton Region, we're talking about municipalities like Oakville, Burlington. Help me understand here, because the region itself, people are assuming this is an affluent community. This is we're talking perhaps quieter neighbourhoods. When we think of comparing it to city centres like here in Toronto. How does this investigation truly challenge those perceptions?

Morgan: Well, again, I think the surprise that it is happening in Halton region because it is an affluent community. So one of the things when we were going out and doing public education is we always talk about three factors that are really important within the Halton region, which is one, again, access to highways. We're on the highway corridor. So we know when we have access to highways, human trafficking can thrive under those conditions. I mean, we are also close to the GTA and huge centres. But the other thing too, is there's a sense of denialism in the community, right? It is an affluent community. It is seen as safer. And we know when there's silence around human trafficking or silence around abuse, that actually creates the conditions for it to thrive, because people don't think it's happening. The other thing would be the affluence, right? So traffickers know that there's people who have money to pay for sex. And I'm not trying to problematise people paying for sex when it's legitimate sex work, but they do know that there are folks there who will pay for sex. And that is a community that traffickers can exploit.

Jeyan Jeganathan: I do want to apologise to our listeners and viewers. There is some construction noise that is happening in the background. So if they're hearing that, we apologise for that. I want to talk a little bit about the survivor who came up and sort of the, I guess, the barriers that exist. So as you mentioned, the outcome of this case was ultimately a survivor. Police have confirmed that there are likely more victims who have come forward. What are some of those barriers that prevent survivors from seeking help?

Morgan: I think there's a number of different barriers. I think systemically, we're living in a world where housing is becoming less and less attainable for people, you know, income inequality rates are becoming higher. So people are living in poverty. So when we know when people aren't having their basic needs met, that that creates conditions of exploitation and vulnerability. We also know just like larger systems, like systemic discrimination, experiences of gender based violence, previous experiences of trauma also make people vulnerable to human trafficking. So I think there's the basic needs side of thing. I had a I worked with a survivor once who told me that as an agency, we're essentially competing with human trafficking traffickers. And I thought that was an interesting way to phrase it. But it's to say that if someone's going to come forward and try to leave their situation, if we don't have housing, if we don't have basic needs, if we don't have access to income, education and supports, people are going to go back to their traffickers. Like, why would they they leave the situation. The other thing is just like trauma informed, specialised support. So we do provide counselling at Savis of Halton, but we know wait times can be long, things like that. So what kind of specialised trauma informed supports are folks getting after? We know that healing from trauma is a long process. It's often non-linear. Do they actually have that? And then as a society, have we moved beyond a place of victim blaming? So do they feel like they're going to be believed? Do they trust authorities and agencies to take them seriously? This is obviously a great case where police did the follow up work, and there was charges laid, but I think there's still that fear of coming forward, given that there is so much victim blaming happening.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Are there in some cases where survivors and victims believe that they could be criminally responsible, even though we know that's not the case?

Morgan: Yes, absolutely. So that would be another factor that prevents folks from coming forward. Like maybe their traffickers told them they're going to get in trouble. Maybe there is some forced criminality within what they're doing, and they do feel that they're going to get in trouble for what's happening. Interestingly enough, Sarvis goes into Vanier, which is a detention centre in Milton, and listening to people's stories there. There were a number of folks who were actually incarcerated who have experienced human trafficking. I'm not saying they were incarcerated for human trafficking, but certainly people are fearful of authorities based on maybe their history of criminalisation as well.

Jeyan Jeganathan: You handle this on the ground daily. And I'm curious, what does recovery look like after someone comes out of trafficking?

Morgan: I think it's very complex. It's multifaceted. I always say it's like a lifelong journey, like, and it's non-linear. So you can be down a path and go back. And we're still open to support you. So there are, you know, I think in terms of the supports we provide, there's the basic needs. So supporting people with access to housing, food, clothing, like that kind of level of support. And then there's the after support, which is the counselling. We provide folks to support them in the healing trauma from trauma that happens. There's often a lot of like complex, like mental health, substance use pieces. We know substance use is a factor in control of, of survivors. So it could be access to substance use supports as well. So it's very layered. It's very multifaceted, multifaceted, and it's often a very long journey for folks once they leave trafficking.

Jeyan Jeganathan: One of the things that I think when we have these conversations, a lot of people are still quite shocked is how young some of these victims are. And I know that, you know, your Organization also gets right in in terms of prevention, right in at school. And so help me understand what kind of conversations should this investigation that we are looking at with troubadour be prompting among parents organisations, schools and students themselves?

Morgan: Yeah. So we do work a lot with schools in the areas of prevention. So we work a lot with Halton District School Board or Halton Catholic District School Board. And so we're going into schools and we're doing age appropriate education within the schools with students directly. So that's starting off with like consent, healthy relationships. It's often the building blocks, especially for younger kids. And then for older kids, we are doing presentations like directly on human trafficking. And we also work with the survivor who comes into those schools as well, who shares her story, which is really impactful. I think prevention is so important, especially around younger kids and like social media and tools that traffickers are now using. And I think there can be a tendency because of course, as a parent, you're going to get scared. Like I can imagine you're going to want to go into lockdown stage, of course, but it's not about increasing surveillance. I think it's about the relationship that you have with the young people in your lives and how you create those safe spaces for people. So we also do education and awareness events with parents. And so we always talk to people about like, how do you create safer spaces for, for children to come forward or used to come forward? They're more likely to come forward when they're feeling like they're not going to get into in trouble. Then if they feel like there's going to be a punitive response.

Jeyan Jeganathan: Ana, we are going to leave it there. I really appreciate you taking the time and helping talk about a very important conversation.

Morgan: Thank you so much for having me.

Jeyan Jeganathan: The way young people are using the internet isn't going away. So the question I have is, how do we make those spaces safer? Would restricting social media for kids under 16 make a difference? Let us know in the comments, or send us an email at rundown@TVO.org. I'm Jeyan Jeganathan. Thanks for watching The Rundown. I will see you tomorrow.