How do teachers and students handle discussing sensitive issues? Is political bias a problem in schools? I asked Muna Kadri, York Region president of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation, and Sarah Mora, a recent high school graduate, to share what it's like to talk politics at school. Muna, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us on the program and thanks for joining us in our makeshift studio. How are you guys doing?

Great. Thank you for having us. It's wonderful. Thank you so much for having us.

All right, so we're here to talk about sort of navigating political speech in the classroom. Um, I want to know from a teacher's perspective, do teachers feel a chill on what they can discuss in a classroom?

Well, what we discuss is guided by curriculum? So, the ministry tells us what it is that we're discussing in the classroom, but depending on the climate. So, to give you an example, during COVID, there were some polarizing issues. The curriculum guides what we teach, but we know that there are some pressures when there's external issues in the community. And so it it's difficult to navigate some issues because of those pressures. But again, we still have to teach the curriculum and that's what we do.

You bring up CO as one example. I am curious um politically a very contentious time. Um politics, how do you navigate something as big as what we're seeing sort of south of the border and sort of what's happening here in Canada?

We're grounded in curriculum. So I come back to the same answer and it's funny you say that right now is a particularly contentious time. You know I've been teaching for almost 20 years now. Every time was a particularly contentious time and so we encourage students to evaluate sources, think critically and we ground ourselves in the curriculum. So sometimes it's tough for students to deal with new materials because they are not particularly in line with what they've known for life. But it's great when they get to experience new thoughts and ideas based on what we are guided by through the curriculum. All right,

Sarah. Now, you've graduated uh but uh and you're in university now, but what was it like in high school uh around sort of those conversations that weren't necessarily curriculum uh maybe curriculum adjacent perhaps, but how did you sort of navigate those conversations and how would you talk about them in the classroom?

That's a really great question and I think that like both of you guys made really good points. Like every every time is like a particularly contentious time. there's always going to be something going on politically and some conflict or crisis and I mean like education itself is inherently political. So even making decisions within um how you communicate with your students and things like that that is inherently political. Um I I think that I am a more particularly politically um oriented person than some of my classmates. So that was definitely something that I focused on in high school when I was in uh classes like history or geography or economics that was definitely at the forefront of my mind. Um I think I was I'm very grateful to have had teachers who were very open to fostering these kinds of conversations. Um during the US election for example um last year I was um like head of the history club. So we organized um a kind of lesson after school about how US politics works, how the election works in the US um and what to expect for this election. And my history teacher actually was the one who led it and he was very open to these conversations. And I think that what was most important about all of those conversations is that you recognize that you can't separate yourself from bias. But again, like learning how to think critically, that is definitely something that all of my teachers did a really great job at pointing out, you know, like trying to um separate the bias from the value that we ascribe to these things and and just giving us the most um objective stance in a very subjective um landscape.

Muna, I want to understand, have there been teachers who have been disciplined um for, you know, political speech in the classroom and how has the OSTF helped?

Well, I I can't speak to all of Ontario in terms of discipline and our definitions of discipline, but have there been conversations with teachers about concerns about what is deemed political speech in the classroom? And so I think you brought up a great point is everything is political. And so in terms of our role as OSSTF, we support teachers in terms of how do you navigate curriculum during times where a topic might be challenging. And I'm going to tell you from supporting 3,500 members in York Region. They're all trying to get it right in terms of helping students make their own decisions, helping students assess resources, helping students navigate difficult conversations. And so, while like you said, there's a chill at different times over different issues, our role as a federation is to help our colleagues work through the curriculum in a way that supports students in the best way possible. And you can see a product of that sitting beside me who's doing incredible work partly because of the education that she received in a public education setting.

In terms of the supports, what are some of the calls that you were hearing from some of the members?

So, I'll give you an example. Much of the Ontario curriculum in the social sciences talks about talking about current events. So we'll get a call saying how do we talk about AB and C as a current event and so we always come back to is it in your curriculum okay yes it's in UI curriculum then we talk about are you bringing in a variety of resources are you bringing in students lived experiences are you trying to foster ways so that students can bring their own resources in and critically assess those resources we want to help students become adults who can integrate in a world and have political discussions in a way that's constructive and productive for society

I want to have a better When I was in high school, cell phones weren't really around, you know, uh they were around, but they weren't really allowed in the classroom. People weren't recording uh videos. You can see things that are happening in the classroom that you would never see before. And I I am curious, do do students ever record teachers at the time that you were in school and post videos on social media?

Um, okay. So, I personally I've never seen something like that. like I I understand that might be a concern, especially when you're having a politically charged conversation um or something that that might be a little bit more vulnerable with your students, you know what I mean? And I I've never seen any of my peers or classmates doing something like that. Of course, like there have been times where we'll take photos with our teachers or sometimes like share things amongst each other, but I've never seen anyone try and um go out of their way to harm someone's image like that. Um now, I'm not saying that this doesn't happen. Of course, I have very like myopic lens based on my high school experience and the people that I grew up with. Um but in my experience, I haven't seen something like that.

Lena, please don't would be my first thought. Uh my second thought is is we work really hard to create what we call classroom norms at the beginning of a semester so that students feel safe to be able to have really good conversations in classroom. And to think that somebody could videotape as students are experimenting with thoughts and ideas as a teacher who's protective of the students in my classroom. It it terrifies me that that's a thought they could have. And and we have unfortunately an underfunded system where I have 30 or 40 kids in a class and we're trying to have a conversation and you catch a snippet in a moment of chaos that's so unproductive and harmful to the students I'm meant to protect in my class.

Does that put the a chill on what to teach?

Yeah, it absolutely does. And my primary role as a teacher is to protect the students in my classroom and doing something like that which violates I'm going to guess every single board policy. I know in my board it violates board policy really puts students in a place where they don't feel like they can have vulnerable conversations as they're learning because they're worried someone's going to f uh film. So, I'm really pleased to see that we're taking a stronger tone on cell phones to make sure things like that aren't happening in class.

Who who loses out um in that in what sort of technology can create in that particular example where you can't have these conversations?

Students. And you know, I I read a tweet from a reporter the other day about he put out a tweet and it was nuanced about something and then there was vitrial that came at him. No nuanced conversation. And I thought to myself, we're losing the ability to have political discourse

because we're not finding places where we can practice it in a safe way. If we say, "Well, you can't talk about this in school." Where are you going to learn to have a respectful conversation with nuance and disagreement if it's not in the safe environment of a classroom?

Yeah, pick up on

that is such a good point. I think that um schools like and and just education as a whole is like the foundation for how you grow up and how you begin to think and function as a member of our society. And you know even I I I'm a fresh university student so I'm in my first year and people talk about the ivory tower and how it's a very like it's a vacuum. It's a secluded space and I think that that can be a great thing and I think that's high school is also a great place for students to facilitate conversation where they can share their opinions freely and openly and and be safe in that environment. It's a kind of public sphere where you are able to share whatever you want and have productive discourse not limited to whatever um like social economic factors that might confine you in the future as an adult to speak your truth and advocate for yourself in your own views and I think that's a great way to foster critical thinking abilities the ability to evaluate the current events going on around you it's just

it is the place to have those conversations so it doesn't make sense that they're under threat and that they are um being you know there is a chill like in some ways.

I want to pick up on a a comment that Muna had made but I want to get a better understanding of the conversations that you felt that you wanted to have in high school but that you couldn't have. Um whether it's with your classmates because they felt uncomfortable around having that conversation or whether it was your teachers. What were some of the things that you were yearning to just like can we talk? Something happened over the weekend or something happened. I really want to talk about it.

Well, I mean I like I said I I think I got particularly lucky with who my teachers were and everything like that. I think that um there is a lot of political apathy um especially in um my generation and um even in like like a few years older than me. And I think it's partially because conversations like this are not being encouraged as much and there's so much political polarization. And I think it's really hard to have those conversations when you don't have any guidance. Which is why I feel like it's really great to have educators like Muna who are like encouraging that that that conversation. And I mean I I would freely speak my mind. I I did not I did not feel like I was being blockaded from having the conversations that I wanted to have. But that does come with consequence of course when you have when you have conversations that are um politically charged that people are emotional about. You might get into arguments and things like that. And I think I mean I I I think the most heated time at my school um or surrounding any particular conversation was the US election prior to and afterward. Um, of course, my teachers didn't try to to um outwardly tell tell us their opinions, but um there were a lot of disagreements and and a lot of discourse um surrounding the US election. And I think that that was a great time where me and my classmates experienced healthy political discourse because we were also being taught um how to understand the information that was being presented to us and how to consume it in the proper way.

All right, I want to read a memo. Uh this was sent out by the former education minister Jill Dunlop last year to school boards across the province around the time of the first anniversary of the October 7th attack which I will read in part. The focus in our schools must always be on learning. This means our schools and school related activities should never be used as vehicles for political protests that enable inflammatory, discriminatory and hateful content. While everyone is entitled to their own political opinions, they are not entitled to disseminate political biases into our classrooms. We did reach out to the Ministry of Education for comment, but we did not hear back in time for this taping. But Muna, how do you interpret this memo from the ministry?

Well, unclear at times, and so I understand that they're trying to promote a safe learning environment, which every educator is committed to. Like that is our goal, keeping students safe as much as possible. Um, but more clarity would have been appreciated because I'll give you an example. I'm a politics teacher. Much of what we have to teach is political biases.

Exactly. And we have to talk about, you know, some of some very difficult topics and some terrible things that happened historically. And so, does that memo direct us not to teach curriculum?

I'm I'm hoping not. I I wouldn't I would hope that the minister isn't sort of sort of throwing away curriculum. It's just um a lack of clarity is an issue and for something that's so important. I think that there's an opportunity for the minister, you know, bring experts to the table, bring teachers and education workers to the table. Let's unpack what's happening in schools and finding ways where we can work within the curriculum to make sure that students are having their needs needs met in a way that nobody feels unsafe in the classroom because that's the goal, right? You know, safety and learning hand in hand and trust teachers like we put student needs first. If the Minister of Education would trust us, I think that they would have a lot more faith in the system, which they should have as the Minister of Education.

you've touched on this a little bit um in your experience. It seems like you had a a number of great teachers. Um we all have our biases. It's how we approach it. We are wearing many hats as a journalist, as a teacher. Uh did you ever feel like teachers had a bias?

Um I think that it's a lot of people are so worried about um the dissemination of political narratives and biases in classrooms, especially when it comes to talking about political speech in schools. Um, and I I just find it a bit senseless to think that you can have a biasless classroom. I think that everyone inherently has bias. If you decide that something is valuable and worth talking about, that is your bias toward that subject. You're ascribing it value and therefore you are biased towards it. So I I do think of course all my teachers had bias. I'm a I am biased. Everyone has their biases. But I think it depends on how you approach that and if you make your students aware, the people that you're talking to aware um that what you are saying is not necessarily objective and that it's not universal or um you know there is there are certain judgments that can be made on either side. I think that that is really important um in any conversation, not even just in terms of political speech, but um for example, I took a lot of history classes in high school and that is something that was stressed so much um to us, especially when we were reading from diff different authors, different sources and and things like that.

Um so I I do think that of course teachers would have political bias. they will have their own personal experiences that in influence their opinions, but I also think that if if handled well, those conversations can be extremely productive and they can still um navigate conversations with students without necessarily imposing their own narrative or opinions on them.

Muna, um, for the educators who are going to be watching this and listening to this, what is a a takeaway, um, in terms of how they handle sensitive topics in the classroom?

Keep doing what you're doing because you're so good. You're so good at it. And when I sit beside a student who graduated from our public education system who's absolutely rocking it in every way, it's a testament to the incredible work that the 60,000 OSSTF members in Ontario do. And so keep approaching public education from a place of caring and kindness and keep being those incredible curriculum experts who put students first. And so my message isn't so much to the teachers in our province who I know are putting students first. It's to the Minister of Education is to build confidence in a system that's working so well for our students and to fund it appropriately so that you can have these conversations in your classroom without 40 other students in the class. Can you imagine a debate? you experienced it with 40 students discussing something really, you know, you know, really difficult. Fund our schools appropriately, smaller class sizes, trust your educators, and build confidence among families. I send my child to school because I love our public education system. So, message not to my colleagues, it's the minister of education.

All right, Sarah, you got the last question. uh you're in university now as we mentioned and you made it very clear that you were you didn't feel like you um you know were uh silenced or or anything in high school but do you feel freer now that you're in university in terms of what you can say?

Um I think that um just being in university um you are in a much more concentrated group of people who are very interested in whatever um class you're in. So I'm taking like four ethics classes. We are debating every single day topics.

Um and it it is exactly the kind of conversations that are taboo in in in schools in high school and things like that and things that the Ministry of Ed education or the Ford government that they don't want you to talk about and and things like that. And I I'm watching as I just graduated from high school and I'm seeing all of these things like the potential removal of school trustees and and you know like um trying to decide what students or teachers can and cannot talk about in schools. And that's really concerning to me because I did have a great experience um in terms of my education and I don't want to see students or teachers lose their autonomy in that in that sense and what they can talk about in their freedom. Um but yeah, in terms of university, I I do think that I'm I'm surrounded by a lot of like-minded peers, people who are interested in politics, people who are interested in um debating these things. So I I do think that if you constitute freedom as what people are more willing to talk about because that's what they're interested in, then yes.

All right, we are going to leave it there. Sarah Muna, really appreciate your time and I think we can both agree that I think we're in good hands. The future is taken care of. We're good. Thank you.