Please welcome Leopoldo Lopez.: 请欢迎莱奥波尔多·洛佩斯（Leopoldo Lopez）。
英文原文
**Please welcome Leopoldo Lopez.**: Please welcome Leopoldo Lopez.谢谢。谢谢你，惠特尼（Whitney）。谢谢大家。非常荣幸能来到这里与你们在一起。
英文原文
>> Thank you. Thank you, Whitney. Thanks to all of you. It's a it's a great honor to be here with you.回顾 TED 演讲与科技在自由中的角色
你在 4 月份的旗舰大会上发表了那场演讲。你在演讲中分享了自己生活中一些非常私密的时刻，比如你作为政治犯度过的 7 年时光。刚才回顾这段视频时，你感觉如何？
英文原文
>> You delivered that talk in April at our flagship conference. Uh and you shared some really personal moments from your your life in the talk, your seven years that you spent as a political prisoner. How how did it feel watching it back just now?自从 4 月份发表那场演讲后，我就再没看过了。所以，看着自己总是会觉得有些奇怪，对吧？而且，那段时期不仅对我而言，对数百万委内瑞拉人来说都非常艰难。因此，回顾在委内瑞拉发生的事情以及我们所经历的一切是很难受的。但这也是一个充满乐观的时刻，因为我们正处于委内瑞拉的过渡时期。这种过渡有许多层面，我相信我们稍后会更多地讨论这一点。
但 5 个月前的委内瑞拉与今天的委内瑞拉大不相同，我也确信它将与 5 个月后的委内瑞拉截然不同。我认为科技领域也是如此。5 个月前，谈论个人智能体（personal agents）还是许多人不太了解的事情，即使在 TED 大会上也是如此，那几乎是一个边缘话题。而现在，我敢肯定在 5 个月后的今天，每个人都有了一个智能体，我相信今天收看这场演讲的每个人甚至都已经拥有一个，或者确切知道什么是代理式 AI（agentic AI）。
我认为 4 月份提出的问题依然成立。你知道，谁掌握着你技术的钥匙？谁掌握着你与金钱、通信、连接、AI、内容之间个人关系的钥匙？是你，还是别人？我认为这个问题以及“科技可以被用来争取自由”的理念依然存在且极其重要。同样，科技也可以被用于社会控制，因为我认为科技是中立的。我在我自己的国家看到过，我也通过世界自由大会（World Liberty Congress）在其他国家看到过独裁者如何利用科技进行控制，以越来越精密的方式促成自我审查与控制。因此，自由的领域不再仅仅是物理维度的自由，它也是数字维度的自由。我认为这即便在民主国家也是成立的。所以回过头来看，我认为那些问题依然摆在那里；关于委内瑞拉，我依然非常乐观。
英文原文
>> Well, I I had not seen it since I delivered it in uh in April. So, it's um it's always strange to to look at yourself, right? Um and it's it's also a period that not just for me, but for millions of Venezuela has been very hard. So, it's it's tough to look back on on what happened and what we've gone through in Venezuela, but it's it's also uh a moment of optimism because we are in a moment of transition in Venezuela. And that transition has many layers and I'm sure we'll talk more about that. uh but what was Venezuela 5 months ago is very different from the Venezuela today and I'm sure it will be very different from the Venezuela in five months and I think the same happens with technology uh five months ago talking about uh personal agents was something not many people knew about it even at the TED conference I mean it was something almost at the fringes and now I'm sure everyone uh has an agent five months after that I'm sure everyone that is uh looking at this uh talk today is it even has one who knows exactly what agentic AI is. And I think that the questions that were presented in in April uh are still true. You know, who holds the keys to your technology? Who holds the keys to your individual relationship with with money, with communications, with connectivity, with AI, with uh with content, uh you or someone else? And I think that that question and and that idea that um technology can be used for freedom um is still there and it's very relevant uh in the same way that technology can be used for social control because I think technology is neutral and I have seen in my own country and I have seen it through the world liberty congress in other countries how technology is used by autocrats uh to control to to promote self-control in more and more sophisticated ways. So the realm of freedom uh is no longer just the physical realm of freedom. Uh it's also the digital realm of freedom. Um and I think that it's also true even in democratic countries. So looking back into it, um I think that the questions are still there and with regards to Venezuela, I continue to be very optimistic.正如你所提到的，自 4 月以来发生了太多事情，仅在今年也是如此。当你思考委内瑞拉、思考科技时，我们在这次对话中会涵盖很多内容。但回到科技这一点，这是你在 TED 发表的第二场演讲。第一场演讲探讨了威权主义的抬头以及我们该如何遏制它，这可以说是你毕生工作的核心。那么当你思考第二场演讲以及对科技的具体关注时，你是否认为这是我们开展消除威权主义工作的主要途径？
英文原文
>> Well, as you mentioned, so much has happened since April and and just in this year alone. uh when you think about Venezuela, when you think about technology, there's so much we'll cover in this conversation, but but I guess to to the point of technology, your your this was your second talk you you gave at at TED and the first sort of looked at the rise of authoritarianism and how we might stifle that, which is really the crux of your your life's work. And so when you think about the second talk and the focus specifically on tech, do do you see that as the primary way we go about doing that work of of stamping out authoritarianism?呃，这当然是其中一种方式，而且我是在 TED 做演讲，你知道，“T”代表的就是技术（technology）。但除此之外，我确实相信，即便在专制国家内部，这也是一个日益有效的空间，能够赋予人们自主权和主权。我亲眼目睹过这一点，我在委内瑞拉和其他地方都见过。我看到过即使在断网的时刻，我们仍然能够进行动员。我看到过由于金融体系受到控制，我们如何能够将资源输送到完全封闭的国家中。
所以我看到过这些，我们正在努力使“为自由而战的人”与“开发技术的人”之间的交集成为我们工作的一部分。事实上在 11 月，我们将在旧金山举行一次会议，重点正是自由技术，以及我与活动人士和开发者讨论过的所有这些事情。所以我可以告诉你，这也引发了人们极大的兴趣，非常大的兴趣。我们一直在对我们网络中的成员进行调研，并与他们交谈，询问他们的优先事项是什么，而技术总是排在首位，因为人们切身体会到了它——人们既把它看作受害的源头，也把它看作隧道尽头的光芒。
AI 已经成为独裁者制造深度伪造（deep fakes）的工具。我们网络中的许多人，包括我自己，都曾是各种深度伪造的受害者。我们看到在不同国家，切断网络连接是如何成为家常便饭；甚至仅仅是缺乏互联网接入，就成了阻碍人们获取 AI 的壁垒。这不仅是一个威权与民主的问题，它更是一个基础设施问题：面对这种情况我们能做些什么？我们能否为人们建立一种替代性的基础设施来保持连接？你知道，星链（Starlink）是一种方式，但还有其他正在涌现的技术，其目的就是为了确保这项在我看来如今最重要的人权之一——即接入互联网。这是最重要的人权之一，但它却遭到封锁；即使在拥有全面网络覆盖甚至 6G 的国家（比如中国），那也不是自由的互联网。我认为这绝对是整个群体都关注的事情。
英文原文
>> Well, it certainly won and uh I was giving the thought at the the talk at TED. So, you know, the T stands for the technology. But uh be beyond that, I I do believe that this is an increasingly um effective space to to give people autonomy and and sovereignty even within autocratic countries. I've seen it and and I've seen it in Venezuela and elsewhere. I've seen how we've been able to mobilize even in moments of internet shutdown. uh I have seen how we've been able to uh push resources into countries that are completely closed uh because of the control of the financial um system. So I have seen this uh and we are working in getting that intersection between those who are fighting for freedom and those who are developing technologies uh part of our work. Uh in fact in November we're going to have um a a a meeting in in uh San Francisco that will be focused precisely on this on freedom technology and all of the things that I was talking about with activists and and with developers. So this is something also that I can tell you that sparks a lot of interest by people a lot of interest. So we are um always surveying uh surveying uh and um and talking to the members of our network and we talk about you know what are their priorities and and technology is always top of the line because people see it people see it um as victims and people also see it as light at the end of the tunnel. Uh AI has become a tool for autocrats to produce deep fakes. uh many of the people in our network I myself have been a victim of deep fakes of all sorts. uh we have seen the the ways in which just uh blocking the the connectivity uh it becomes regular in in different countries how even um just the lack of having access to internet um it's a blocking for people to have access to AI and uh and this is not just an autocracy democracy question it's more of a an infrastructure question you know what can we do about it can we build uh an alternative infrastructure for people to be connected you know um Starlink is it's a way of doing it but there are others uh other technologies that are coming up there just to make sure that what is I my belief one of the most important human rights today which is access to internet uh that's one of the most important uh um human rights and it's been blocked uh even in countries that have access to internet full or 6G like like China it's not free internet I think that this is uh um something that that um it's of interest to to the community for sure.主权 AI、开源与守门人困境
是的。当然，这也是联合国的主要可持续发展目标之一，很多人绝对会在思考科技的重要角色这一点上认同你的看法。你在演讲中花了相当多的时间描述自由斗士和全球民主倡导者使用科技的方式，你刚才也提到了这点。在你发表演讲后的近六个月里，很多事情都在持续演变和改变。你看到你在台上提出的那些想法自 4 月以来又是如何进一步发展的？
英文原文
>> Yeah. I mean and and and of course like that's one of the major sustainable development goals but from the United Nations there's lots of folks who definitely agree with you from that place of like thinking about the the important role of tech and you know you you talk about in the the talk you mentioned this even just now that that you spent a good deal of time sort of describing the ways tech is being used by freedom fighters and people who are advocating for democracy around the world and in the nearly six months since you've given that talk so many things have continued to evolve and change like how have you seen seen the ideas you presented on stage evolve even further since April.我认为焦点越来越集中在 AI 上了。我看到在我们的自由斗士和人权捍卫者群体中，大家对如何恰当地使用 AI 抱有极大兴趣，因为此前发生过人们与 AI 的对话遭到泄露的情况，他们甚至因此被送上法庭。所以，当你利用 AI 思考如何克服威权统治、如何建立抵抗运动时，你当然会感到面临暴露的风险，当然会有许多东西是你无论如何不愿意交给一家企业的。
因此，我们一直在致力于“主权 AI”（sovereign AI），我认为这是过去五个月里最重要的事情。我们正在为活动人士开展这项工作，并且正从运动的领导者开始，让他们拥有属于自己的主权 AI，运行在他们自己控制的服务器上。他们来决定使用什么大脑、使用什么大语言模型（LLM），但他们将基本要素保留在自己的服务器中。鉴于该群体中许多人所面临的暴露风险，这越来越引起人们的兴趣，我们正在举办研讨会，试图将其推广开来，并确保这些运动本身能够获得所有这些不同的技术。
我认为围绕这一点始终有一条主线，那就是开源技术——这意味着没有任何人能够掌控的技术。这也是我演讲的一部分，谈论那些“守门人”（gatekeepers）。我提到了乌干达的案例，当时星链被切断了；而在同一周内，伊朗的星链也被切断了。我甚至不对此给出政治定性，也许根本没有人是出于具体的政治原因做出决定的，但问题在于，有人掌握着决定人们能否获得连接的可能性。如果能有替代方案，我相信这将是一个全球数以百万人都能掌握的变革性工具。正如我之前所说，这些事情正在越来越深地吸引我们群体中的人们。
英文原文
>> Well, I think the the focus has been more and more on uh on AI. Um and I have seen how there is a lot of interest um in our community of uh freedom fighters of uh human rights defenders of how to use AI appropriately because there has been cases where people have been exposed in their conversations with AI. they have even gone to trial. So when you are um working with AI to think of ways of how to overcome an autocracy, how to build a resistance movement, of course you feel exposed of of course there are many things that you are not willing to give a corporation. So we have been working on sovereign AI that has been I would say uh the most important thing over the past five months and we are working for um activists and and we're starting with the leaders of the movements for them to have the their own sovereign AI that lives in in their own server that they control. They decide uh how what brain to use what what LLM to use but they hold the the basic elements in their own server. So given the exposure that many of the people in this community have uh this has become more and more uh of an interest and we are doing workshops we're trying to spread it out and and to make sure that the movements themselves uh have access to all of these different technologies and I think that uh there is always a common thread um around this is technologies that are open source that means technologies that nobody controls and that was a a part of my talk was to talk about the gatekeepers And I mentioned the case of Uganda that uh Starlink was closed and uh at the same during the same week uh Iran was closed and I don't even give a political view of that. Maybe nobody really decided for a specific political reason but the problem was that there was a possibility of someone deciding if there was access or not to connectivity. Um and if there is an alternative to that um I believe it's a transformational um tool that u millions of people could have worldwide and and and these are things that as I said before are engaging more and more uh the people in our community.守门人这个观点听起来特别发人深省，尤其是考虑到那些可能生活在所谓自由国家的人们会如何理解这场演讲。这种观点表明，守门人不一定仅仅指政府，正如你指出的那样，它也可以是一家公司；如果除你之外的任何人拥有它，那么你的自由就是有条件的。那么，对于正在观看这场演讲、生活在民主制度或许更为稳定的国家的人们，你希望他们从这场演讲中汲取什么？
英文原文
>> Well, and the gatekeeper point seems it to be a specifically provocative one when you think about how people who are maybe living in uh what you might describe as free nations, how they engage with the talk. Um this idea that it's not necessarily just a government but a corporation as you you noted or uh you know any if anyone else other than you owns it then your your freedom is conditional. So when you when people who are watching this who are living in um nations where their democracy maybe is is more stable, what do you want um them to take from from this talk?我认为，这种暴露于守门人面前的风险，对生活在威权政权下的人适用，对生活在民主国家的人也同样适用，我们已经看到了这一点。我的意思是，我们已经看到有人被送上审判席，而作为审判证据的一部分，就是他们与自己 AI 的对话。所以，这对控方来说拥有所有这些信息或许是件好事，但对于个人以这种方式暴露，我认为是值得深思的。
我也认为，在金钱、网络连接、通信方面掌握自己钥匙的相同理念，对于生活在民主国家的人同样适用。我相信现在观看这场演讲的每个人都思考过这样一个事实：当他们与任何公司就 AI 进行交互时，他们都在过度暴露自己。这是每个人都在思考的问题。因此，如果能有一种替代方案，让你能在自己的信息上拥有主权——而信息是最私密的东西。我的意思是，隐私是你决定将多少自我呈现给世界其余部分，这是一项个人的决定。当然存在规章制度，但我认为这些问题在今天的数字时代对每个人都成立，因为我们至少生活在两个维度中：我们生活在物理维度，也生活在数字维度，而且我们在数字维度花费的时间可能比在物理维度还要多。所有这些问题对当今世界上的任何人都是切身相关的。
英文原文
>> Well, I think that this exposure to gatekeepers is true for people who are living under autocratic regimes and it's also true for people who are living in democratic countries and we have seen that. I mean we have seen how uh there are people that are being taken to trial and part of this part of the elements that go to trial are their conversations with their own AI. So um I mean that might be good for whoever is accusing to have all of that information but for individuals to be exposed in that way I think is something to think about. And I also think that um that this the same ideas of holding your keys for money, connectivity, uh communication, it's it's also true for people who are living in democratic countries. I am sure that everyone watching this talk now uh has thought about the fact that when they are interacting with whatever corporation for AI, they are uh overexposing themselves. This is something everyone is thinking about. So if there is an alternative to this where you can be sovereign uh in your own information which is the most private thing. I mean privacy is something you decide um how much of yourself you want to give to the rest of the world. It's it's a uh it's it's an individual decision. Um and of course there are regulations and rules but uh I think that these questions are true for everyone today in the world of the digital age because we we are living at least in in at least two dimensionals. We live in the physical dimension and in the digital dimension and and we spend maybe more time in the digital dimension than in the physical one. And all of these questions are relevant for anyone in the world today.世界自由大会与威权同盟的挑战
我很想将话题从演讲延伸到你更广泛的工作上。你共同创立了你在演讲中提到的世界自由大会（World Liberty Congress），这是一场如今涵盖了 60 多个国家的自由运动。你在演讲中说了一句非常引人深思的话：威权政权自古以来就在相互配合与协作；而相比之下，自由斗士在历史上却一直非常分散，这也是你工作的重心，也是你第一次演讲的重点。你认为为什么亲民主陣营在寻找组织和协作方式上，似乎比我们在威权阵营看到的发展得慢得多？
英文原文
>> Well, I'd love to expand out beyond the talk to to your wider work. You um you co-founded the World Liberty Congress, which you mentioned in the talk, which is the a freedom movement involving more than 60 countries now. And you said something really striking in the talk that this the idea that autocratic regimes are working together and collaborating and have been for time in memorial. It feels like whereas freedom fighters have historically been really dispersed and which is a big focus of your work and was a big focus of your your first talk. Why do you think the pro-democracy side has seemingly been much slower to find ways to organize and collaborate than than we've seen in the autocratic side?我认为独裁者之间的合作是以非常务实的方式进行的，这不是一种意识形态上的合作。你看这些独裁者：从中国的共产党，到俄罗斯的民族主义者，到伊朗的神职统治者，再到委内瑞拉的盗贼统治者。这并不沿着意识形态的界线展开。他们拥有一个共同的目的、一个共同的目标，那就是保住权力，保住他们的腐败网络，并对抗一个共同的敌人。而他们的共同敌人就是民主。
一直以来都是这样。在入侵乌克兰之前，习近平和普京签署了一份非常著名的文件。那是在入侵前 10 天，他们至少用了一整段来将他们所谓的“颜色革命”列为共同敌人。“颜色革命”本质上就是 20 世纪和 21 世纪人民奋起反抗专制政权的群众运动，最近的发生在尼泊尔、马达加斯加，但在玻利维亚、委内瑞拉、尼加拉瓜各地都发生过。他们将此视为共同的敌人，并正在合力瓦解这些运动。
那么，为什么民主阵营面临困难呢？这包含不同的层面。首先从我们自身说起，也就是运动本身、活动人士以及实地的领导者。我认为在太长的岁月里，我们都以为自己的问题仅仅是我们自己国家内部的问题。很难看清其中的联系。很难明白为什么去与来自古巴和尼加拉瓜的人协调、交谈和结识会有意义（就我所在的地区而言）。也许我们当时认为，如果我们那样做，就可能会改变那些政权在某一时刻有兴趣致力于改变委内瑞拉的可能性。所以这需要时间。
这就是我们在 2022 年与来自伊朗的玛茜赫·阿利内贾德（Masih Alinejad）以及来自俄罗斯的加里·卡斯帕罗夫（Garry Kasparov）共同发起世界自由大会的核心理念。我们是创始人，我们决定召集来自不同国家的人来分享这个想法：我们为什么不聚在一起？我们为什么不协同工作？所以我们第一次在立陶宛的维尔纽斯相聚，当时有来自 40 个国家的人；第二年我们迎来了来自近 60 个国家的人；今天，我们拥有来自 65 个国家的领导人。
不幸的是，专制在全球范围内是一个日益严重的问题。15 年前，全球有 42% 的人口生活在某种专制政权之下。这不是我杜撰的数据，这是自由之家（Freedom House）、经济学人智库（Economist Intelligence Unit）、V-Dem 的统计。今天，全球有 75% 的人口生活在某种专制政权之下。因此，专制正在迅速扩张，在全球范围内蔓延。我们比以往任何时候都更需要围绕这些理想团结起来，至少我们认为这些理想值得为之奋斗，值得为其付出自由。
第二个层面是政府。我认为地缘政治很多时候在其中扮演了某种角色，极少存在基于价值观的外交。我认为外交主要关乎利益，主要关乎地缘政治和经济利益，而在民主国家的优先事项中，民主退居次席。
然后是慈善事业。我认为这是另一个非常重要的层面。让我举个例子：在美国，每年有近 4000 亿美元流向慈善事业，其中只有 1% 用于与民主相关的议题；而在这 1% 之中，仅有一小部分用于在美利坚合众国境外促进民主。
因此，你可以在不同的层面看到这些不同的问题。这也是我们在世界自由大会希望开展的一部分工作：努力让那些坚信民主值得捍卫、坚信自由普世通用、坚信地球上的每个人都应掌握自身自由钥匙的机构、个人、政府和活动人士联合起来。
英文原文
>> So I think uh autocrats uh collaborate and and they do it in a very pragmatic way. Uh it's not an ideological collaboration. You have uh the autotocrats, the communist party from China to the nationalists from Russia to the theocrats from Iran to the kleptocrats from Venezuela. Um it's not along um ideological lines. They have a common purpose, a common objective which is to hold on to power, to uh hold on to uh their corrupt networks and um uh and and to go against a common enemy. And their common enemy is democracy. And it's it has been that way. Before the invasion of Ukraine, Xiinping and Putin uh signed a very famous document. It was 10 days before the invasion and they dedicated at least one paragraph to what they call the color revolutions as a common enemy. The color revolutions is nothing different that the the people's movements from the 20th century and the 21st century that have risen against the autocratic regimes the the most recent in Nepali, Madagascar, but it's happened everywhere in Bolivia, Venezuela, Nicaragua uh and and uh this is something that they see as a common enemy and they are working uh to dismantle these movements. So why is it difficult on the democracy side? Well, there different layers. Uh I will start by our own which is the the movements, the activists, the leaders on the ground. Uh I think for too many years we thought that our problem was only our own problem in our own country. It was difficult to see the connections. It was difficult to see why would it matter to um to coordinate and to talk and to get to know people from Cuba and Nicaragua talking about my region. um maybe we thought that if we did that we would be um kind of shifting the possibilities for those regimes to at some point be interested in working towards changing Venezuela. So it took time and and that's the the core idea of the World Liberty Congress that we started in 2022 with Masia Alina Jad from Iran and Gary Kasparov from Russia. We are the founders and we decided that we would call people from different um from different countries and to share this idea. Why don't we get together? Why don't we work together? So we met for the first time in Lithuania in Vnus and we had people from 40 countries and the second year we had people from almost 60 countries and today we have leaders from uh 65 countries. Unfortunately, autocracy is a growing problem globally. 15 years ago, 42% of the population was living under some sort of autocratic regime. Uh, and these are not my numbers. This is Freedom House, Economist, Intelligence Unit, uh, VM. Today, it's 75% of the world population is living under some sort of autocratic regime. So, it's autocracy is growing very fast. is growing globally and um and and more than ever we need to unite around these ideals that at least we hold as as as something worth fighting and worth giving your freedom to. The second layer is government uh and I think that many times geopolitics plays a role in this and and uh there is uh very little um valuebased diplomacy. I think diplomacy is mostly about about interest. It's about mainly about geopolitical and economic interest and democracy is taking the back back seat of the the priorities of democratic countries. And then you have philanthropy. I I think that that's another layer that is very important. Let me give you an example. In the US uh almost $400 billion dollars go to philanthropy every year and only 1% of that goes to democracy related issues and of that 1% only a fraction goes to promoting democracy outside the US. So uh these are different problems that that you can see in different layers and that's part of the work that we want to do at the World Liberty Congress is try to align those institutions, individuals, governments, activists that believe that democracy is worth fighting for, that believe that freedom is something that is universal and that every human being uh in the planet should hold their own keys to their own freedom.民主面临的现实风险与希望
你刚才分享了许多可能让很多人感到震惊的事情。听到你首先提到全世界有超过 75% 的人口生活在专制统治之下，这表明是世界上的绝大多数人口。我们的会员提出了很多问题，都在询问我们该如何理解这一点，以及这对于当前时刻意味着什么。弗朗西斯卡（Francesca）很好奇：尤其从这个视角来看，你预见在不久的将来对民主最紧迫的风险是什么？
英文原文
>> You shared a lot of things just now that are probably stunning to a lot of folks. I think um in you know hearing you first mention that over 75% of the world is living under autocratic uh leadership like you know I think that's that's suggests the overwhelming majority of the world and we have a lot of questions uh from members that uh are sort of asking about how do we um process this and think about what this means for this moment. Francesca is curious what are the most urgent risks towards democracy you foresee in the near future especially through that lens.我认为最大的威胁已经正在发生。我的意思是，最大的威胁是民主在全球范围内正在失去阵地，我们正在看到我们的国家变得更加专制，甚至民主国家也正在变得更加专制。这种模式仍在持续。在自由之家或经济学人智库的 2026 年报告中，我们将看到情况在继续恶化。
而且不幸的是，我们还看到对于生活在民主制度下的大多数人而言，民主不再是一种价值观。我看到过关于民主国家的人们如何看待民主与自由的非常惊人的民调，令人震惊的是，尤其是年轻人，竟然如此愿意为了效率而牺牲民主。
这就引出了另一个问题：民主必须展现成效。如果民主无法展现成效，民主就不会得到支持。民主必须在最基础的层面上带来实效：必须在经济上展现成效，必须在司法公正上展现成效，必须为绝大多数人提供机会。如果做不到这一点，人们就不会捍卫民主。因此我认为在提供实效方面这是一个巨大的挑战；而由于传播方式的改变、社交媒体的即时性、以及操纵公众舆论的潜在能力，这种挑战变得更加复杂。这是我们在自己的国家、在专制国家中非常切身观察到且亲身受害的现象，但这在民主国家也同样存在。
英文原文
>> Well, I think the the biggest threat is it's already happening. I mean the biggest threat is losing uh ground to democracy worldwide and we are seeing how our countries are becoming more autocratic. Even democratic countries are becoming more autocratic. So that that pattern has continued uh in the uh 2026 report of freedom house or economist intelligence. We will see that the situation continues to deteriorate and um we are also seeing um that unfortunately uh democracy it's no longer a a a a value um for the large majority of people living in in democracy. I have seen very striking polling of the way people think about democracy and freedom in democratic countries and it's staggering to see how much uh the especially the young people are willing to uh sacrifice democracy for effectiveness. So that brings to another problem which is democracy has to deliver. If democracy doesn't deliver, democracy won't be supported and democracy has to deliver in the very basics. It has to deliver on the economy. It has to deliver on justice. It has to deliver on opportunities for the large majorities uh of of the people. If that doesn't happen, people won't defend democracy. So that's a I think a big challenge in terms of delivering which gets more complicated because of the way communications has shifted because of the immediiacy of social media because of the potential to manipulate public opinion which is something that we have seen very very closely that we have been victims of um in our own countries in autocratic countries but it's also true in democratic countries.那么从另一面来看，当你审视当下的格局时，是什么让你对未来的走向以及通往自由的轨迹感到最受鼓舞？
英文原文
>> Well, I guess on the flip side of that, when you look at the landscape, what what makes you feel most encouraged about where things are headed and sort of the arc towards freedom?我从人民身上获得鼓舞。每当我结识越来越多来自世界各地愿意投身抗争、愿意承担风险、愿意学习、愿意接受培训、汲取知识和开展组织的领导者与运动时，我都感到备受鼓舞。
因为尽管过去几年民主一直在向专制失守，但当人们被问及愿望时——我看到过关于这方面的全球民调，非常耐人寻味——当人们被问及希望如何生活时，希望生活在民主条件下（即获得自由）的人在全球超过 80%。所以这给了我希望。
给我希望的还在于我们今天能够联合起来相互沟通。我们每天都可以与非洲、亚洲、东欧和拉丁美洲的人们进行沟通。这也是科技所赋予的可能，这非常令人鼓舞。我们一直都在这样做。来自世界各地、处于各种时区和环境中的人们聚集在一起，深入思考这些问题：如何互相帮助，如何相互借鉴经验。因为归根结底，每场抗争都是独特的，但在争取自由的斗争中总有一些相似之处。那种求知欲和参与的意愿给了我希望。
英文原文
>> Well, uh I I get encouragement from from the people. I get encouragement every time I I get to know more and more leaders and movements worldwide uh that are willing to fight the fight, that are willing to take the risks, that are willing to learn, that are willing to um go through process of of training, of learning, of organizing. Um because in in the same way that democracy has been losing ground to autocracy over the past years, uh when people are asked and I have seen global polling on this that is very interesting. When people are asked how they would like to live um and people who would like to live under democratic conditions that means to be free uh it's over 80% of the world. So that gives me hope and what gives me hope is that we are able to uh align ourselves to communicate today. We can have a communication with people in Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America uh every day. Um and and that's something that it's also being permitted by technology and it's it's it's it's encouraging. We do it all the time. We have, you know, just people from all over the world, all types of time zones of circumstances, meeting, thinking through these problems, uh how to help each other, how to learn from one experience to the other because at the end, every fight is it's it's unique, but there are always things that are similar in the in the struggle for freedom. uh and that that curiosity, that willingness to engage gives me hope.我想把你刚才说的与这种日益增长的担忧联系起来。你在对话的前半部分也提到过，即使在民主国家，我们手头现有的这些工具、你提到的这些技术，它们的构建方式可能会让威权国家更容易控制居住在那里的人民。你认为民主国家有能力应对这一关口吗？你认为我们还需要构建什么才能让他们做得更好？
英文原文
>> Well, I want to connect what you're saying right now to this growing concern and you mentioned this earlier in our conversation that that even in democracies using that the tools that are available to us these these technologies that you referenced that they're being built in ways that could make authoritarian um nations uh give them easier ways to control uh the the people living there. Do you think that democracies are equipped to handle this moment? And what do you think we still need to build to enable them to do that better?这是一个棘手的问题，因为我认为思考这个问题有两种途径。有些人认为解决之道在于监管，在于更多的监管。特别是作为父母，你可能对这种方法非常敏感。
但对此还有另一种替代视角，那就是：你如何能不依赖那些拥有守门人的技术？这正是我在演讲中传达的核心信息：科技的使用方式可以让你成为该技术的所有者，让你成为钥匙的所有者，无论你使用的是我们谈到的网络连接、金钱、通信还是 AI。所以，我认为看待这个问题有两种途径。
英文原文
>> Well, I mean, it's a tough question because uh there and I think there are two two ways uh to think about this question. Uh there are those who believe that the answer to this is in regulation in in more regulation. Uh there might be especially being a parent uh that you're very sensitive to to a lot of that approach. Um but then there is another alternative view to this which is you know how can you not be dependent on the technologies that have gatekeepers and that's the entire um you know heart of of the message I delivered in my talk that the technologies can be used in ways that you can be the owner of that technology that you can be the owner o of that key uh to whatever you're using for the things that we talked about connectivity money um communications um and and and AI. Um so I think that there are two ways of looking at this.委内瑞拉的多层过渡：地缘、经济、军事与制度
那么我们来谈谈委内瑞拉吧，因为我知道很多人非常想听听你对当地发生的一切的看法。今年发生了太多登上全球头条的大事，尤其是今年 1 月马杜罗被美国政府抓捕。如今距离那一刻已经过去了九个月，委内瑞拉建立了一个临时政府，超过 130 名政治犯被释放，但这个国家仍然深处过渡之中。这可能是我们一年前谁都无法预料、无法想到会讨论的事情。作为毕生真正为此抗争的人，你如何体会当下的这一刻？这一刻对你个人而言感受如何？
英文原文
>> Well, let's talk about Venezuela because I I know that there's a lot of um interest in hearing your perspective on all the things that have been going on there and so many things have happened that have made global headlines this year, not least of which is Maduro's capture by the US uh government earlier this year in January. Now we're nine months later uh on from that moment and we have an interim government in place there. More than 130 political prisoners have been released but the country is still very much in transition. Uh and this is something that probably none of us would have predicted would be happening that we'd be discussing uh a year ago. As someone who has spent your life really fighting for this, how how are you experiencing this moment? What has this moment felt like for you personally?对你问题的首要回应是，我们现在的情况比 1 月 2 日要好得多。委内瑞拉已经开启了过渡。过渡是从 A 点走向 B 点，我们还不确切知道这个过渡最终会落脚在何处。我会给出我对此的看法。但委内瑞拉已经不再是 1 月 3 日时的样子了，很多事情都发生了变化。
但我们还没有达到我们想去的地方。我对过渡的理解不是只在单一议题上的直线过程。我认为这是一个多层次的过程，有些事情进展迅速，有些事情仍待解决。
在我看来，已经发生的一层过渡是关于委内瑞拉的地缘政治过渡。直到 1 月 3 日，委内瑞拉一直处于中国、俄罗斯、伊朗、古巴以及来自墨西哥和哥伦比亚的毒贩和全球有组织犯罪的影响之下。这是有据可查的。而这种情况已经改变了，发生了显著改变，变成由美国拥有主要影响力的现实。有人可能会说，那也不是完全主权。这确实是真的。今天的委内瑞拉处于美国的影响力之下，这种影响力决定了该国正在发生和将要发生的许多事情。如果你问我，我宁愿处于美国的影响力之下，也不愿受制于俄罗斯、中国、伊朗、古巴或毒贩。我们达到理想状态了吗？没有。但我们的处境好多了。
过渡的另一层是经济过渡。特朗普政府、特朗普本人、鲁比奥（Rubio）以及许多其他人都对此谈论很多。经济过渡中正在发生一些事情：石油行业正在开放，正在对外来投资开放。显而易见，如果委内瑞拉想要实现经济复苏，有三件事必须成为焦点：兆瓦（电力）、美元和原油桶数。这是委内瑞拉经济过渡初期阶段的重点。目前还没有完全到位，大部分还停留在签署投资承诺的阶段。绝大多数委内瑞拉人民尚未感受到投资和资本的投放，因此人们越来越缺乏耐心。但我认为这是一个正在酝酿的过程，在接下来的几个月里会有所体现。
然后是军事过渡，这是一个非常少有人提及但至关重要的议题。委内瑞拉必须转变其军事组织架构，该体系主要是在 2000 年代初在古巴的影响下建立的，随后受到了俄罗斯的大量影响；但之后它也演变成了自身的法人实体结构，在委内瑞拉盗贼统治的经济体系中扎根极深。我认为这一军事过渡仍处于悬而未决的状态。我相信有一些事情正在推进，但我认为这是关键的一环，因为我们在尼加拉瓜等地看到过，他们在 1990 年代迎来了民主开放，但随后丹尼尔·奥尔特加（Daniel Ortega）卷土重来，恰恰是因为军方从未被纳入过渡进程中。
再一层是政治过渡，即民主过渡。这是一个已经在进行的进程。它是鲁比奥部长提出的包含三个阶段（稳定、经济复苏和过渡）计划的一部分。通往民主的过渡正在通过更新委内瑞拉国家体制支柱来构建，其中最高法院和选举委员会是最重要的两根支柱。目前正在就此进行讨论，有望在今年年底前，通过由民主反对派控制的 2015 年国民议会与政权之间正在举行的谈判进程，产生新的最高法院和新的选举委员会。实际上，第二轮谈判就在本周开启。
这场民主过渡将走向何方？它必须导向国民议会和总统的自由公正选举。但我们如何实现这一目标至关重要：为了促成选举，不仅要让人民投票，更要让投票结果得到尊重、让过渡平稳进行，就必须通过这一谈判进程实现体制变革，而这已经在发生。
当然，我必须说，委内瑞拉人民正变得越来越缺乏耐心。在 1 月 3 日马杜罗被抓获后，人们抱有巨大的期望。委内瑞拉人民所建立的期望之高令人难以置信。我认为抓捕马杜罗是一次天衣无缝的军事抓捕行动，针对的是一个被起诉的人，因为马杜罗甚至都不被承认为委内瑞拉总统。但现在困难的部分在于：如何把握好时机，在我刚才谈到的这许多不同层面上推进这项过渡。我认为关键是要打下坚实的基础，因为我们看到过——文献中也充满了这方面的例子——过渡之后又出现倒退，倒退回旧政权，或者倒退到受到旧政权影响的某种政权形式。因此，实现民主过渡成功的窗口期非常狭窄，必须建立在坚实的基础之上。我认为法律和体制的基础对于政治变革至关重要，同时必须获得人民的合法性认同，因为这是关键：如果人民没有被纳入其中，这就会失败。委内瑞拉人民必须通过感受到经济复苏、受益于稳定，以及当然通过成为民主变革合法性的一部分，被纳入到这一进程中。
英文原文
>> So um it's it the the first reaction to your question is that we are uh much better than what we were in January the 2nd. Venezuela has started a transition. Transition is moving from uh point A to point B. We don't we don't know exactly where that transition is going to land. I I will give you my thoughts on that. But Venezuela is not the same that what it was on January the 3. Um and many things have changed. Uh but we are not where we want to be. The way I think about transition uh is not only on a straight line on a single issue. I believe that there are it's a multi-layered uh process and there are things that have gone fast and others that are pending. Um so one transition that has already taken place in my review is the geopolitical transition regarding Venezuela. Up until January the 3, Venezuela was under the influence of China, Russia, Iran, Cuba, the narcos from Mexico and Colombia and organized crime worldwide. And that has been widely documented. And that has changed. It has significantly changed uh to a reality where the United States uh has the the main level of influence. And someone could say, well, that's not sovereign either. And it's true. Venezuela today is under a level of influence of the US that that determines many of the things that are happening and will happen in the country. If you ask me, I much rather be under the influence of the United States uh than of Russia, China, uh Iran, Cuba or the NAOS. Um are we where we want to be? No. But we are much better off. Then there is another layer to the transition that is the economic transition. Uh that has been talked about a lot by uh the Trump administration, Trump himself, Rubio and many others. And there are things that are happening in the economic transition. Um the oil sector is opening. It's opening for investment. Uh it's clear that Venezuela, if we want to uh think about economic recovery, there are three things that should be uh the focus. It's megawatts. um dollars and barrels. That's the focus of uh what is starting to happen in the economic transition in Venezuela. It's not there yet. Uh most of it has been signing of commitments for investment. Uh the deployment of investment and capital uh has not been felt by the majority of the Venezuelan people. So people are wearing impatient. uh but I think that this is a a process uh that that it's in in in in the making and it will be felt in the months to come. Then there is the uh the military transition which is an important issue that um very few people talk about but I think is crucial. Venezuela has to move from its military organization um that was built under the influence primarily of Cuba since the very early 2000s and then with a lot of influence uh by Russia but then it also transformed into its own corporate structure that has a very heavy foothold in the kleptocratic regime of the economy in Venezuela. Um and that military transition I think is pending. Um, I'm sure that there are things that are happening, but I think it's a crucial one because we have seen in places like Nicaragua where they had an opening to democracy in the 1990s and then um Danielle Ortega came back precisely because the military was never part of the transition. And then another layer is the layer of the political transition, the democracy transition. And this is a process that it's it's uh already it's ongoing. Um and it it's part of the the the plan laid out by Secretary Rubio that has three stages, stabilization, economic recovery, and transition. And the transition to democracy is being built um by starting with the renovation of pillars, institutional pillars in the Venezuelan state. the Supreme Court uh the electoral board being the two most important and this is being discussed and hopefully by the end of a year there will be a new Supreme Court and a new electoral board in a negotiation process that is taking place between the national assembly of 2015 that is controlled by the democratic opposition and the regime. Uh actually this week there is the beginning of the second round of negotiations. Where is this democratic transition uh leading to? Um it needs to lead to a free and fair election for National Assembly and for the presidency. But how we get there is crucial in order to get to the election not just for people to vote but for people to vote to for the results to be respected and for the transition to be smooth. uh there needs to be this institutional transformation that that it's uh already happening through this negotiation process. Um of course I have to say that the Venezuelan people um are growing impatient. U people have huge expectations after the capture of Maduro of January the 3. It was incredible the the level of expectations built by the Venezuelan people. Um, the capture of Maduro, I think, was a seamless military extraction operation of an indicted individual because Maduro was not even recognized as the president of Venezuela. Uh, but now the the difficult part of how to build this transition on this many different layers that I'm talking about uh can happen with the right timing. And I think um what's important is that it's built with strong basis because we have seen and the literature is full of examples on this uh transitions that then fall back that then return to the old regime on some sort of regime that has influence by the old regime. So the window for success of a transition to democracy is narrow and and it needs to be built on strong fundamentals and I think that the the legal the institution fundamental for the political change with the legitimacy of the people because this is key. If the people are not brought into the equation this will fail. uh the Venezuelan people need to be brought into the equation by feeling the economic recovery, by benefiting from the stability and of course by being part of the legitimacy of the democratic transformation.通往真正民主的具体步骤与民众参与
感谢你分享这些。听起来有很多工作正在展开，很高兴听到你对事情的发展方向总体上持有一种希望的态度，这对我理解和消化当下发生的一切很有帮助。我们的会员布兰妮·W（Britney W.）提问：如果采取务实而非纯理想化的路径，从委内瑞拉目前的现状来看，真正的民主过渡应该是怎样的？我认为你刚才对我们目前的处境做了解释。所以顺着这个问题，你认为该如何让人民参与进来？委内瑞拉人民如何参与到通向自由选举的进程中？你认为需要采取哪些步骤？
英文原文
>> Well, thank you for sharing all of that. It sounds like uh there's a a lot underway and and it's it's good to hear that overwhelmingly you seem to have a sense of hopefulness around where the direction in which things are moving which I I will say for me has helped make me better understand and process all that's going on in this moment. Um, and we have, you know, a questions from, uh, our member Britney W, who asks, um, if you take a realistic rather than aspirational approach, what does a a genuine transition to democracy in Venezuela look like from where the country stands today? And I I think you've done such a a wonderful and helpful job of explaining sort of where we are today. Um, so I I I I guess to add to that, how do you think we you involve the people? How do the people of Venezuela get involved in this process to leading to a free election? what is what are some steps you think that need to be taken?好的。非常具体地来说，我所看到的前进道路是：我们将产生一个新的最高法院和一个新的选举委员会。该委员会需要制定选举时间表。委内瑞拉需要举行各种各样的选举：地方、区域、国民议会选举，当然还有总统选举，那是重中之重。但为了达到这一步并确立时间表，我们需要新的最高法院和新的选举委员会，希望我们在今年年底前能够实现。因此，希望我们能在进入 2027 年时对阶段性目标有清晰的规划。
我也坚信，这种使体制合法化并考量更深层结构性变革的进程，需要依靠人民的合法性认同来拥抱面向未来的委内瑞拉，因为这将成为构建委内瑞拉民主国家新结构的基石。
但我也认为，必须让人民融入到经济转型中。如果经济复苏仅仅有利于石油公司，或者仅仅有利于体制内的少数人，或者仅仅有利于美国，那么它就会失败。如果委内瑞拉人民在自己的口袋里感受不到经济转型带来的影响，这可能会破坏我们国家的转型与过渡。
当然，还有一件非常重要的事情，那就是瓦解镇压机器，这也是谈判进程的一部分。这意味着什么呢？镇压体制建立在不同的支柱上：其一是体制机制——最高法院、总检察长、警察、军队；其二是法律；其三是法官、检察官和警察所享有的实际司法豁免（impunity）。必须彻底瓦解这一整套镇压机器，人民才能积极参与进来。
但我们迎来了巨大的机遇。过渡绝非易事。我刚从玻利维亚回来，那是我在拉丁美洲唯一没有访问过的国家。此前我无法前往那里，因为直到一年前它都还是一个专制国家。他们举行了选举，并得以通过选举实现过渡。但现在他们面临很多挑战：面临抗议、面临稳定问题、面临人们感受不到经济带来成效的挫败感。所以过渡是脆弱的，大多数过渡都会失败。这就是为什么我们需要以一种能为委内瑞拉未来创造稳定和坚实基础的方式来思考这个问题。但第一步——即推翻马杜罗并启动过渡——已经在 1 月 3 日迈出了。
英文原文
>> Yeah. No, very ve very concretely the way the way I see a path forward is uh we will have a new Supreme Court, a new electoral board. That board needs to lay out a timeline for elections. There needs to be elections of all sorts in Venezuela. Uh local, regional, national assembly elections and of course a presidential election. Uh that is the the most important one. Uh but in order to get there, in order to get to that timeline, we need a new Supreme Court and a new uh electoral board. And hopefully we will have that by the end of the year. So hopefully we will begin the uh 2027 with clarity in terms of what will be the the milestones and um and I also believe that this process of legitimizing the institutions and also um thinking of more structural changes will need the legitimacy of the people to embrace the Venezuela looking forward because this will be the basis upon which the new uh structure of the Venezuelan democratic state will be built. Um but I also think that the people need to be brought in uh in the economic transformation. If there is economic recovery only for the oil companies uh or only for the benefit of some few in the state or only for the benefit of the US, it's going to fail. Um, if people don't feel the the the impact in their pockets of the economic uh transformation in Venezuela, this could be a spoiler for the transformation for the transition uh in our country. And of course uh there is something very important which is the dismantling of the repressive state and that is also part of the negotiation process. What does that mean? Well, the repressive state is built on different pillars. uh one of them the the the institutions, the Supreme Court, the attorney general, uh the the the police, the military. Uh a second one it's it's the laws. Uh and um and a third uh is the actual uh impunity with judges and attorneys and and police. Uh all of that repressive state needs to be dismantled in order for the people to actively engage. But uh we we have a huge opportunity. Um transitions are not easy. I just got back from Bolivia. Uh it's the only country that I had not visited in Latin America. Uh I was not able to go there because it was an altocratic uh state uh until a year ago. They had their elections. They were able to transition with elections. But now they're facing a lot of challenges. They're facing protest. They're facing stability. uh they're facing the frustration of the people not being felt that the economy is delivering. So transitions are fragile. Most of them fail uh and and that's why we need to think of this in in a way that creates stability and strong foundations for the future of Venezuela. But the first step which was the to remove Maduro and to start a transition was taken on January the 3rd.人道危机与震后救援的启示
除了委内瑞拉在政治层面发生的一切之外，我们当然都看到了该国在今年夏天 6 月份遭遇的毁灭性地震。人道主义局势的处理情况如何？对于不在委内瑞拉的人来说，你认为他们需要了解灾后重建真正需要什么？
英文原文
>> Well, on top of everything that's happening politically uh in Venezuela, we of course all saw the the devastating earthquakes that um the country experienced over the summer uh in June. How has the humanitarian situation uh hand been handled and what do you think people who are not in Venezuela need to understand about what recovery really requires?这次地震灾情极其惨重。那是发生在 6 月 24 日的双重地震，造成了超过 10,000 名受害者，是毁灭性的。但真正令人沮丧且更具破坏性的是，国家在震后最初的 72 小时内毫无作为。那 72 小时是至关重要的——在地震这样的灾难之后，那是生死攸关的窗口期，而国家力量完全缺席。
大家看到的是国际社会的援助。来自墨西哥、美国、萨尔瓦多以及拉丁美洲许多其他国家的志愿者、众多不同的组织以及公民社会立即行动起来，聚集在一起并在那些关键时刻赶赴现场。
现在我们面临着极其巨大的挑战：有超过 20,000 个家庭流离失所，数百万人直接或间接受到影响。当然，这也给经济增添了另一重负担，因为重建这些受灾区域大约需要 300 亿美元。而这个国家的 GDP 只有 800 亿美元左右，国家债务在 1500 亿到 2500 亿美元之间，由于极其缺乏透明度，我们甚至不知道确切的数字。
是的，地震非常剧烈，伤亡惨重。我认为它对民众的情绪和挫折感产生了巨大的冲击。希望人们团结起来的方式能够在一定程度上弥补这种损失，因为大家团结一心的方式、不同组织协作的方式、甚至海外侨民将成吨的援助物资从国外送入委内瑞拉的方式，都展现出了极大的尊严与自豪感。可以说，这是我们在震后这场悲剧中唯一感到欣慰和平衡的地方。
英文原文
>> Well, the the the earthquake was was tremendous. It was a double earthquake on uh June 24th and it had um more than 10,000 victims and it was devastating. But what was really uh frustrating and more devastating was the incapacity of the state to be present during the first 72 hours after the earthquake which are the crucial I mean that's the window of life and death after after an event like an earthquake and the state was nowhere to be seen. What was seen was the international response. Um there was an immediate response from volunteers from Mexico, from the US, from El Salvador, from uh many other countries in Latin America, from many different organizations and of the civil society coming together uh to to be present during those critical hours. Now, we're facing a a a very big challenge. There's uh more than 20,000 families displaced that there are millions of people affected directly or indirectly. And of course, this places another burden on the economy because the recovery of what was devastated is um it's around $30 billion in a country that has a GDP of uh $80 billion uh and that has a a national debt between 150 and $250 billion and we don't even know the the numbers because there is such a lack of uh transparency. So yes, the earthquake was tremendous, a lot of victims. Uh I think it had a tremendous impact in in in the sentiment uh of the people um in the frustrations and uh hopefully the way in which the people came together can compensate that that that that loss uh because there was also a lot of pride in the way people came together in the way different organizations even the way in which the diaspora was able to bring uh tons of help from um from from from the diaspora into Venezuela. So that was I I I would say the only balancing of this tragedy that we had after the earthquake.自由的代价与民主防线的警示
感觉在思考委内瑞拉正在发生的事情时，我们还有很多内容可以深入探讨。感谢你分享对当下的见解以及你所看到的未来走向。我想退一步，把委内瑞拉放回到更广泛的民主对话中来思考。我们的会员亚历克萨·G（Alexa G.）提问：你曾亲身经历过民主自由的丧失。你认为生活在稳定民主国家的人们，常常把哪些不该想当然的事情视为理所当然？我想结合你刚才分享的一切来探讨这个问题。
英文原文
>> Well, I I feel like there's so much we could we can dive into here um with in thinking about what's happening in in um in Venezuela. And thank you for sharing some insight into this moment and and where you see things heading. I I think to sort of zoom back out and think about um you know, Venezuela wrapped into this larger conversation of democracy. Uh we have a question from Alexa G who asks um you have lived through the loss of democratic freedoms firsthand. What do you think people living in stable democracies often take for granted that they shouldn't? I I I guess through the lens of all the things you you've just shared.这是一个极好的问题。西班牙语里有一句谚语叫“你无法在别人的头脑里吸取教训”，所以从别人的经验中吸取教训是非常困难的。
我记得在查韦斯执政初期，来自古巴的人会说：“这正在朝古巴的方向发展。”我记得我自己当时的反应是：“啊，他们太夸张了。”你看，古巴是一个岛国；而委内瑞拉拥有 40 年强大的民主历程，我们有公民社会，我们打棒球，我们与西方价值观一致，我们有大学、有公民社会。然而，在经历了查韦斯所谓的“21 世纪社会主义”20 年之后，我们的处境比古巴还要糟糕。委内瑞拉有三分之一的人口不得不离开这个国家，那是将近 1000 万人。想想看：全国三分之一的人口不得不离开。大多数年轻人离开了委内瑞拉，大多数拥有专业学位的人离开了委内瑞拉，大多数具有创业精神的人离开了委内瑞拉。在委内瑞拉，没有任何一个家庭是没有直系亲属流亡海外的。这是毁灭性的。
我认为，至少对我而言——我相信对许多其他人也一样——我们是通过自己的切身经历才学会的。我懂得什么是自由，不是因为我读过的法律、政治学、哲学书籍，或者诗歌与音乐；我懂得什么是自由，是在我身陷囹圄的时候；我懂得什么是自由，是在我被关在单独禁闭牢房里的时候。当我真切体会到由别人来决定我吃什么、什么时候吃、到底给不给我吃，决定我什么时候能见到阳光，决定我什么时候能见到另一个人并与之说话时，自由是什么就变得无比清晰了。不是因为我正在体验和感受自由，而是因为失去自由。
我认为这就是为什么生活在民主国家的人很难去体会、珍惜和捍卫自由。但当威胁出现时，这也是一个让人们反思的机会：如果这种威胁在任何一个民主国家将其观念和主张推向极端，会发生什么？这正是委内瑞拉发生过的事情。现在，我认为我们的国民对自由和民主的价值有着非常深刻的清醒认识。对我们来说，这些不是抽象的概念。当我们谈论民主时，我们清楚自己的意思；当我们谈论自由时，我们知道它不是单一的事物，而是许多事物的总和。我们知道，因为我们亲历过。当我们谈论自由时，我们可以讲述一个亲身经历的故事，而不是空谈理论。
这是我们所经历过的，我希望我们也能与生活在专制国家之外的人分享，让他们认识到捍卫民主有多么重要，并理解民主有多么脆弱。因为民主是非常脆弱的。我们在我的国家经历过这一切，我们从未想过会走到那一步：在过去的 10 年里，我们出现了 20,000 名囚犯、三分之一的人口背井离乡、经济彻底崩溃、面临绝对且彻底的审查等等。我们从未想过这会发生。但如果我们的经验能够帮助唤醒生活在民主国家的人们的意识与警觉，让他们去珍惜、参与并成为捍卫民主的一分子，我认为这就是一份有益的贡献。
英文原文
>> You know that's a it's a great question and and there is a saying in Spanish that says you don't learn in someone else's head. Uh so it's very difficult to learn from someone else's experience. And uh I I remember during the early years of Chavis that people uh coming from Cuba would say, you know, this is going in the direction of Cuba. And I remember my own reaction at the time was ah they're exaggerating. You know, Cuba was an island. Uh um Venezuela has 40 years of democracy, of strong democracy. We have civil society. We play baseball. We're aligned, you know, with Western values. We have universities, civil society. And you know 20 years into um into this process of uh the socialism of of of 21st century as Chavis called it we're worst than Cuba. A third of the population in Venezuela had to leave the country. That's almost 10 million people. If think about this a third of the population of the country had to leave. Most of the young people are out of Venezuela. Most of the people that have a professional degree are out of Venezuela. Most of the people that have an entrepreneurship spirit are out of Venezuela. There is not a single family uh in Venezuela that doesn't have a close relative that it's no longer living in the country. So, it's been devastating. Um and I think that the only at least for for for me and I think it's true for many other people, we learned by our own experience. I learned what freedom was not because of what I read um in terms of law books or political science or philosophy or poetry or music. I learned what freedom was when I was in prison. I learned what freedom was when I was in a solitary confinement cell. when I it was it was real for me that someone else was deciding what I was going to eat, when I was going to eat, if I was going to eat at all, when I was going to see the sunlight, when I was going to see and talk to another human being. Uh it became very clear what freedom was. Not because I was experimenting and and and and feeling freedom, but because of the lack of it. And I think that's why it's very difficult to to learn and cherish and and and defend freedom uh of people that live in democratic countries. But um also when the threat is present uh it's also an opportunity to people for to to reflect you know what will happen if that threat in whatever country democratic country you know takes its ideas it proposal to an extreme and that's what happened in Venezuela and uh uh now we are I think a population that is very very conscious about the value of freedom and democracy these are not abstract ideas for us when we talk about democracy we know what we mean when we talk about freedom, we know it's not one thing. It's the sum of many things. We know because we have lived it. When we talk about freedom, we can talk about an anecdote and not about a theory. So, this is something that uh that that we've lived through and and that I hope we can also share with people living outside autocratic countries uh for them to realize how important it is to defend democracy and to understand how fragile it is because democracy is very fragile. We lived it in my country. We never thought uh we were going to reach a moment when um over the past 10 years we had 20,000 prisoners, a third of the population living, the collapse of the economy um and absolute and complete censorship and so on. And we never thought that that was going to happen. But if our experience can contribute to open the consciousness and the sensibility of people living in democracies to take care and to engage and to be part of the defending of of democracy. U I think that's a good contribution那么，生活在自由国家的人们有哪些具体途径可以帮助世界各地的自由斗士？
英文原文
>> and and what are some some concrete ways people living in in free countries can help freedom fighters across the world?首先是要抱有兴趣。我想首先是要去了解世界各地人们所面临的问题。其次是去发现他们可以与之建立联系的领袖和运动。世界自由大会对你们当中任何有兴趣以多种不同方式参与的人都敞开大门。我们一直在寻找合作伙伴，希望他们能带来知识、想法、人脉和资金，以帮助这些运动变得更加高效。
但最重要的一项贡献是保持意识、怀有同理心。同理心不是同情怜悯，同理心是设身处地站在他人的立场上，尝试从他们的视角去看待、去感受并理解这个世界。这并非易事，但我认为这是生活在民主国家的人们开始援助全球亲民主与自由运动的最关键一步。
英文原文
>> Well, I would say um that that first to to be interested. I I would say first to get to know the problems people are facing worldwide. Um second to identify um leaders and movements they can connect to. I mean the the World Liberty Congress is open to any of you who could be interested to to engage in in many different ways. We're always looking for partners uh to engage with their knowledge, with their ideas, with their connections, with their funding uh in order for these movements to become more effective. But the most important uh the most important contribution is to be aware uh to have compassion. Compassion is not to have pity. Uh compassion is to put yourself in the in in in the shoes of someone else and and to try to see, to feel, and to understand uh the world from their perspective. It's not an easy thing to do, but I think it's the most important step uh for people uh living in democratic countries to start helping the the movements uh the pro-democracy and freedom movements worldwide.非常感谢你，莱奥波尔多。我觉得我们对你所做的工作以及你所思考的一切才仅仅触及了皮毛。这次对话意义深远。我知道对我自己是如此，看着那些分享感受的观众评论也绝对是如此。大家非常感激你，这对所有这一切提供了一个非常有意义的视角。非常感谢你抽出宝贵时间，莱奥波尔多，也感谢这场精彩的对话。
英文原文
>> Thank you so much, Leopoldo. I feel like we have just barely touched the surface on all the the work you do and all the things that you're thinking about. Um and it's been so meaningful. Well, I I I know for me and definitely looking at the f the comments, the folks that um have have shared how they're feeling. Uh this is so appreciated and um and so such a meaningful perspective on all of this. So, thank thank you for your time, Leopoldo, um and for this this really wonderful conversation.非常感谢你，惠特尼，也感谢所有参与进来的各位，同时祝贺 TED。这是一群极好的观众。也非常感谢整个团队，因为在 TED 背后有很多人促成了这场活动的举办。所以对你们大家：谢谢，非常感谢。成为这个社区的一员是我的荣幸，我也随时欢迎与你们任何人交流合作。谢谢你们。谢谢大家。［音乐］
英文原文
>> Thank you very much, Whitney, and thanks to all of you who joined and and congratulations to Ted. It's it's a great crowd. Uh and also thank you to all of the team because behind TED there is a lot of people that made uh that made TED happen. So to all of you uh thank you. Thank you very much. It's an honor for me to be part of this community and always open uh to to work to talk uh with any of you. Thank you. Thank you. [music]［音乐］