YOU'VE PROBABLY HEARD THE PHRASE DON'T SPEAK ILL OF THE DEAD. IT'S KIND OF A MORAL GUIDANCE. CAN IT ALSO BE A WORKPLACE RULE? AFTER AMERICAN PODCASTER CHARLIE KIRK WAS KILLED LAST MONTH, A COUNCILLOR IN SAULT STE. MARIE SUGGESTED ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT, AMONG OTHER THINGS, HE SPREAD HATE SPEECH. SHE IS NOW BEING INVESTIGATED BY THE CITY'S INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER. AROUND THE SAME TIME, THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO PUT A PROFESSOR ON LEAVE AFTER SHE POSTED THAT THE SHOOTING WAS, QUOTE, TOO GOOD FOR FASCISTS. IT RAISES SOME BIG QUESTIONS WHAT CAN YOUR EMPLOYER ACTUALLY DO IF YOU SAY SOMETHING CONTROVERSIAL AT WORK OR ONLINE? WHAT ARE THE LIMITS ON FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION? AND WHAT ABOUT SCHOOLS? TALKING ABOUT CHARGED TOPICS IN THE CLASSROOM CAN BE TRICKY. SHOULD ANYTHING BE OFF LIMITS.

WELCOME TO THE RUNDOWN. HOW DO TEACHERS AND STUDENTS HANDLE DISCUSSING SENSITIVE ISSUES? IS POLITICAL BIAS A PROBLEM IN SCHOOLS? I ASKED MUNA KADRI YORK REGION PRESIDENT OF THE ONTARIO SECONDARY SCHOOL TEACHERS FEDERATION AND SARA MORA, A RECENT HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE, TO SHARE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO TALK POLITICS AT SCHOOL. MUNA SARA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THE PROGRAM, AND THANKS FOR JOINING US IN OUR MAKESHIFT STUDIO. HOW ARE YOU GUYS DOING?

MUNA SARA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THE PROGRAM, AND THANKS FOR JOINING US IN OUR MAKESHIFT STUDIO. HOW ARE YOU GUYS DOING?

>> GREAT. THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> IT'S WONDERFUL. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US.

ALL RIGHT. SO WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT SORT OF NAVIGATING POLITICAL SPEECH IN THE CLASSROOM. I WANT TO KNOW FROM A TEACHER'S PERSPECTIVE, DO TEACHERS FEEL A CHILL ON WHAT THEY CAN DISCUSS IN A CLASSROOM?

WELL, WHAT WE DISCUSS IS GUIDED BY CURRICULUM. SO THE MINISTRY TELLS US WHAT IT IS THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING IN THE CLASSROOM, BUT DEPENDING ON THE CLIMATE. SO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. DURING COVID, THERE WAS SOME POLARIZING ISSUES. THE CURRICULUM GUIDES WHAT WE TEACH, BUT WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME PRESSURES WHEN THERE'S EXTERNAL ISSUES IN THE COMMUNITY. AND SO IT'S DIFFICULT TO NAVIGATE SOME ISSUES BECAUSE OF THOSE PRESSURES. BUT AGAIN, WE STILL HAVE TO TEACH THE CURRICULUM AND THAT'S WHAT WE DO.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE IN HIGH SCHOOL AROUND SORT OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS THAT WEREN'T NECESSARILY CURRICULUM MAYBE CURRICULUM ADJACENT, PERHAPS. BUT HOW DID YOU SORT OF NAVIGATE THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND HOW WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT THEM IN THE CLASSROOM?

THAT'S A REALLY GREAT QUESTION. AND I THINK THAT, LIKE, BOTH OF YOU GUYS MADE REALLY GOOD POINTS. LIKE, EVERY, EVERY TIME IS LIKE A PARTICULARLY CONTENTIOUS TIME. THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE SOMETHING GOING ON POLITICALLY AND SOME CONFLICT OR CRISIS. AND I MEAN, LIKE EDUCATION ITSELF IS INHERENTLY POLITICAL. SO EVEN MAKING DECISIONS WITHIN HOW YOU COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR STUDENTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THAT IS INHERENTLY POLITICAL. I THINK THAT I AM A MORE PARTICULARLY POLITICALLY ORIENTED PERSON THAN SOME OF MY CLASSMATES. SO THAT WAS DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT I FOCUSED ON IN HIGH SCHOOL WHEN I WAS IN CLASSES LIKE HISTORY OR GEOGRAPHY OR ECONOMICS, THAT WAS DEFINITELY AT THE FOREFRONT OF MY MIND. I THINK I'M VERY GRATEFUL TO HAVE HAD TEACHERS WHO WERE VERY OPEN TO FOSTERING THESE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS DURING THE US ELECTION, FOR EXAMPLE, LAST YEAR, I WAS LIKE HEAD OF THE HISTORY CLUB, SO WE ORGANIZED A KIND OF LESSON AFTER SCHOOL ABOUT HOW US POLITICS WORKS, HOW THE ELECTION WORKS IN THE US, AND WHAT TO EXPECT FOR THIS ELECTION. AND MY HISTORY TEACHER ACTUALLY WAS THE ONE WHO LED IT, AND HE WAS VERY OPEN TO THESE CONVERSATIONS. AND I THINK THAT WHAT WAS MOST IMPORTANT ABOUT ALL OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS IS THAT YOU RECOGNIZE THAT YOU CAN'T SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM BIAS. BUT AGAIN, LIKE LEARNING HOW TO THINK CRITICALLY, THAT IS DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT ALL OF MY TEACHERS DID A REALLY GREAT JOB AT POINTING OUT, YOU KNOW, LIKE TRYING TO SEPARATE THE BIAS FROM THE VALUE THAT WE ASCRIBE TO THESE THINGS AND, AND JUST GIVING US THE MOST OBJECTIVE STANCE IN A VERY SUBJECTIVE LANDSCAPE.

MUNA I WANT TO UNDERSTAND, HAVE THERE BEEN TEACHERS WHO HAVE BEEN DISCIPLINED FOR, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL SPEECH IN THE CLASSROOM, AND HOW HAS THE OSSTF HELPED?

WELL, I CAN'T SPEAK TO ALL OF ONTARIO IN TERMS OF DISCIPLINE AND OUR DEFINITIONS OF DISCIPLINE, BUT HAVE THERE BEEN CONVERSATIONS WITH TEACHERS ABOUT CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT IS DEEMED POLITICAL SPEECH IN THE CLASSROOM? AND SO I THINK YOU BROUGHT UP A GREAT POINT, IS EVERYTHING IS POLITICAL. AND SO IN TERMS OF OUR ROLE AS OSSTF, WE SUPPORT TEACHERS IN TERMS OF HOW DO YOU NAVIGATE CURRICULUM DURING TIMES WHERE A TOPIC MIGHT BE CHALLENGING AND AND TO TELL YOU FROM SUPPORTING 3500 MEMBERS IN YORK REGION, THEY'RE ALL TRYING TO GET IT RIGHT IN TERMS OF HELPING STUDENTS MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS, HELPING STUDENTS ASSESS RESOURCES, HELPING STUDENTS NAVIGATE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS. AND SO WHILE, LIKE YOU SAID, THERE'S A CHILL AT DIFFERENT TIMES OVER DIFFERENT ISSUES, OUR ROLE AS A FEDERATION IS TO HELP OUR COLLEAGUES WORK THROUGH THE CURRICULUM IN A WAY THAT SUPPORTS STUDENTS IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE, AND YOU CAN SEE A PRODUCT OF THAT SITTING BESIDE ME WHO'S DOING INCREDIBLE WORK, PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE EDUCATION THAT SHE RECEIVED IN A PUBLIC EDUCATION SETTING.

IN TERMS OF THE SUPPORTS, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CALLS THAT YOU WERE HEARING FROM SOME OF THE MEMBERS?

SO I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. MUCH OF THE ONTARIO CURRICULUM IN THE SOCIAL SCIENCES TALKS ABOUT TALKING ABOUT CURRENT EVENTS. SO WE'LL GET A CALL SAYING HOW DO WE TALK ABOUT A, B AND C AS A CURRENT EVENT. AND SO WE ALWAYS COME BACK TO IS IT IN YOUR CURRICULUM OKAY. YES, IT'S IN YOUR CURRICULUM. THEN WE TALK ABOUT ARE YOU BRINGING IN A VARIETY OF RESOURCES. ARE YOU BRINGING IN STUDENTS LIVED EXPERIENCES? ARE YOU TRYING TO FOSTER WAYS SO THAT STUDENTS CAN BRING THEIR OWN RESOURCES IN AND CRITICALLY ASSESS THOSE RESOURCES? WE WANT TO HELP STUDENTS BECOME ADULTS WHO CAN INTEGRATE IN A WORLD AND HAVE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS IN A WAY THAT'S CONSTRUCTIVE AND PRODUCTIVE FOR SOCIETY.

I WANT TO HAVE A BETTER. WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL, CELL PHONES WEREN'T REALLY AROUND. YOU KNOW, THEY WERE AROUND, BUT THEY WEREN'T REALLY ALLOWED IN THE CLASSROOM. PEOPLE WEREN'T RECORDING VIDEOS. YOU CAN SEE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN THE CLASSROOM THAT YOU WOULD NEVER SEE BEFORE. AND I AM CURIOUS, DO DO STUDENTS EVER RECORD TEACHERS AT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE IN SCHOOL AND POST VIDEOS ON SOCIAL MEDIA?

OKAY, SO I PERSONALLY I'VE NEVER SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT. LIKE I, I UNDERSTAND THAT MIGHT BE A CONCERN, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE HAVING A POLITICALLY CHARGED CONVERSATION OR SOMETHING THAT THAT MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT MORE VULNERABLE WITH YOUR STUDENTS. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? AND I'VE NEVER SEEN ANY OF MY PEERS OR CLASSMATES DOING SOMETHING LIKE THAT. OF COURSE, LIKE THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHERE WE'LL TAKE PHOTOS WITH OUR TEACHERS OR SOMETIMES LIKE, SHARE THINGS AMONGST EACH OTHER, BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYONE TRY AND GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO HARM SOMEONE'S IMAGE LIKE THAT. NOW, I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN. OF COURSE, I HAVE A VERY MYOPIC LENS BASED ON MY HIGH SCHOOL EXPERIENCE AND THE PEOPLE THAT I GREW UP WITH, BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE, I HAVEN'T SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

MUNA PLEASE DON'T WOULD BE MY FIRST THOUGHT.

[LAUGHTER]

MY SECOND THOUGHT IS, IS WE WORK REALLY HARD TO CREATE WHAT WE CALL CLASSROOM NORMS AT THE BEGINNING OF A SEMESTER SO THAT STUDENTS FEEL SAFE TO BE ABLE TO HAVE REALLY GOOD CONVERSATIONS IN CLASSROOM, AND TO THINK THAT SOMEBODY COULD VIDEOTAPE A STUDENT'S ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH THOUGHTS AND IDEAS. AS A TEACHER WHO'S PROTECTIVE OF THE STUDENTS IN MY CLASSROOM, IT TERRIFIES ME THAT THAT'S A THOUGHT THEY COULD HAVE. AND WE HAVE, UNFORTUNATELY, AN UNDERFUNDED SYSTEM WHERE I HAVE 30 OR 40 KIDS IN A CLASS AND WE'RE TRYING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION AND YOU CATCH A SNIPPET IN A MOMENT OF CHAOS THAT'S SO UNPRODUCTIVE AND HARMFUL TO THE STUDENTS I'M MEANT TO PROTECT IN MY CLASSROOM.

DOES THAT PUT A CHILL ON WHAT TEACHER?

IT ABSOLUTELY DOES. AND MY PRIMARY ROLE AS A TEACHER IS TO PROTECT THE STUDENTS IN MY CLASSROOM AND DOING SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WHICH VIOLATES I'M GOING TO GUESS EVERY SINGLE BOARD POLICY I KNOW IN MY BOARD IT VIOLATES BOARD POLICY REALLY PUTS STUDENTS IN A PLACE WHERE THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY CAN HAVE VULNERABLE CONVERSATIONS AS THEY'RE LEARNING, BECAUSE THEY'RE WORRIED SOMEONE'S GOING TO FILM. SO I'M REALLY PLEASED TO SEE THAT WE'RE TAKING A STRONGER TONE ON CELL PHONES TO MAKE SURE THINGS LIKE THAT AREN'T HAPPENING IN CLASSROOMS.

WHO LOSES OUT IN THAT? IN WHAT SORT OF TECHNOLOGY CAN CREATE IN THAT PARTICULAR EXAMPLE WHERE YOU CAN'T HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS?

STUDENTS. AND, YOU KNOW, I READ A TWEET FROM A REPORTER THE OTHER DAY ABOUT HE PUT OUT A TWEET AND IT WAS NUANCED ABOUT SOMETHING. AND THEN THERE WAS VITRIOL THAT CAME AT HIM, NO NUANCED CONVERSATION. AND I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, WE'RE LOSING THE ABILITY TO HAVE POLITICAL DISCOURSE BECAUSE WE'RE NOT FINDING PLACES WHERE WE CAN PRACTICE IT IN A SAFE WAY. IF WE SAY, WELL, YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT THIS IN SCHOOL, WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO LEARN TO HAVE A RESPECTFUL CONVERSATION WITH NUANCE AND DISAGREEMENT. IF IT'S NOT IN THE SAFE ENVIRONMENT OF A CLASSROOM?

>> YEAH, PICK.

UP ON THAT IS SUCH A GOOD POINT. I THINK THAT SCHOOLS LIKE AND JUST EDUCATION AS A WHOLE IS LIKE THE FOUNDATION FOR HOW YOU GROW UP AND HOW YOU BEGIN TO THINK AND FUNCTION AS A MEMBER OF OUR SOCIETY. AND, YOU KNOW, EVEN AT A FRESH UNIVERSITY STUDENT. SO I'M IN MY FIRST YEAR AND PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE IVORY TOWER AND HOW IT'S A VERY LIKE IT'S A VACUUM, IT'S A SECLUDED SPACE. AND I THINK THAT THAT CAN BE A GREAT THING. AND I THINK THAT'S HIGH SCHOOL IS ALSO A GREAT PLACE FOR STUDENTS TO FACILITATE CONVERSATION, WHERE THEY CAN SHARE THEIR OPINIONS FREELY AND OPENLY AND AND BE SAFE IN THAT ENVIRONMENT. IT'S A KIND OF PUBLIC SPHERE WHERE YOU ARE ABLE TO SHARE WHATEVER YOU WANT AND HAVE PRODUCTIVE DISCOURSE, NOT LIMITED TO WHATEVER, LIKE SOCIAL, ECONOMIC FACTORS THAT MIGHT CONFINE YOU IN THE FUTURE AS AN ADULT TO SPEAK YOUR TRUTH AND ADVOCATE FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR OWN VIEWS. AND I THINK THAT'S A GREAT WAY TO FOSTER CRITICAL THINKING ABILITIES, THE ABILITY TO EVALUATE THE CURRENT EVENTS GOING ON AROUND YOU. IT'S JUST IT IS THE PLACE TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS, SO IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE THAT THEY'RE UNDER THREAT AND THAT THEY ARE BEING, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A CHILL, LIKE IN SOME WAYS.

I WANT TO READ A MEMO. THIS WAS SENT OUT BY THE FORMER EDUCATION MINISTER, JILL DUNLOP, LAST YEAR TO SCHOOL BOARDS ACROSS THE PROVINCE AROUND THE TIME OF THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY OF THE OCTOBER 7TH ATTACK, WHICH I WILL READ IN PART, THE FOCUS IN OUR SCHOOLS MUST ALWAYS BE ON LEARNING. THIS MEANS OUR SCHOOLS AND SCHOOL RELATED ACTIVITIES SHOULD NEVER BE USED AS VEHICLES FOR POLITICAL PROTESTS THAT ENABLE INFLAMMATORY, DISCRIMINATORY AND HATEFUL CONTENT. WHILE EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN POLITICAL OPINIONS, THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO DISSEMINATE TO POLITICAL BIASES INTO OUR CLASSROOMS. WE DID REACH OUT TO THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION FOR COMMENT, BUT WE DID NOT HEAR BACK IN TIME FOR THIS TAPING. BUT HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THIS MEMO FROM THE MINISTRY?

WELL, UNCLEAR AT TIMES. AND SO I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO PROMOTE A SAFE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT, WHICH EVERY EDUCATOR IS COMMITTED TO LIKE. THAT IS OUR GOAL KEEPING STUDENTS SAFE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. BUT MORE CLARITY WOULD HAVE BEEN APPRECIATED BECAUSE I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. I'M A POLITICS TEACHER. MUCH OF WHAT WE HAVE TO TEACH IS POLITICAL.

>> AND BIASES.

EXACTLY. AND WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF SOME VERY DIFFICULT TOPICS AND SOME TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPENED HISTORICALLY. AND SO DOES THAT MEMO DIRECT US NOT TO TEACH CURRICULUM? I'm HOPING NOT. I WOULDN'T I WOULD HOPE THAT THE MINISTER ISN'T SORT OF SORT OF THROWING AWAY CURRICULUM. IT'S JUST A LACK OF CLARITY IS AN ISSUE. AND FOR SOMETHING THAT'S SO IMPORTANT, I THINK THAT THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE MINISTER, YOU KNOW, BRING EXPERTS TO THE TABLE, BRING TEACHERS AND EDUCATION WORKERS TO THE TABLE. LET'S UNPACK WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SCHOOLS AND FINDING WAYS WHERE WE CAN WORK WITHIN THE CURRICULUM TO MAKE SURE THAT STUDENTS ARE HAVING THEIR NEEDS MET IN A WAY THAT NOBODY FEELS UNSAFE IN THE CLASSROOM, BECAUSE THAT'S THE GOAL, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, SAFETY AND LEARNING HAND IN HAND AND TRUST TEACHERS LIKE WE PUT STUDENT NEEDS FIRST. IF THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION WOULD TRUST US, I THINK THAT THEY WOULD HAVE A LOT MORE FAITH IN THE SYSTEM, WHICH THEY SHOULD HAVE. AS THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION.

YOU'VE TOUCHED ON THIS A LITTLE BIT. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, IT SEEMS LIKE YOU HAD A NUMBER OF GREAT TEACHERS. WE ALL HAVE OUR BIASES. IT'S HOW WE APPROACH IT. WE ARE WEARING MANY HATS. AS A JOURNALIST, AS A TEACHER, DID YOU EVER FEEL LIKE TEACHERS HAD A BIAS?

I THINK THAT IT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT THE DISSEMINATION OF POLITICAL NARRATIVES AND BIASES IN CLASSROOMS, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL SPEECH IN SCHOOLS. I AND I JUST FIND IT A BIT SENSELESS TO THINK THAT YOU CAN HAVE A BIAS LESS CLASSROOM. I THINK THAT EVERYONE INHERENTLY HAS BIAS. IF YOU DECIDE THAT SOMETHING IS VALUABLE AND WORTH TALKING ABOUT, THAT IS YOUR BIAS TOWARD THAT SUBJECT. YOU'RE ASCRIBING IT VALUE AND THEREFORE YOU ARE BIASED TOWARDS IT. SO I DO THINK, OF COURSE, ALL MY TEACHERS HAD BIAS. I'M A I AM BIASED, EVERYONE HAS THEIR BIASES, BUT I THINK IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU APPROACH THAT. AND IF YOU MAKE YOUR STUDENTS AWARE THAT PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE TALKING TO, AWARE THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS NOT NECESSARILY OBJECTIVE AND THAT IT'S NOT UNIVERSAL, OR, YOU KNOW, THERE IS THERE ARE CERTAIN JUDGMENTS THAT CAN BE MADE ON EITHER SIDE. I THINK THAT THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT IN ANY CONVERSATION, NOT EVEN JUST IN TERMS OF POLITICAL SPEECH, BUT FOR EXAMPLE, I TOOK A LOT OF HISTORY CLASSES IN HIGH SCHOOL, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WAS STRESSED SO MUCH TO US, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE WERE READING FROM DIFFERENT AUTHORS, DIFFERENT SOURCES AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO I DO THINK THAT OF COURSE, TEACHERS WOULD HAVE POLITICAL BIAS. THEY WILL HAVE THEIR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES THAT INFLUENCE THEIR OPINIONS. BUT I ALSO THINK THAT IF IF HANDLED WELL, THOSE CONVERSATIONS CAN BE EXTREMELY PRODUCTIVE AND THEY CAN STILL NAVIGATE CONVERSATIONS WITH STUDENTS WITHOUT NECESSARILY IMPOSING THEIR OWN NARRATIVE OR OPINIONS ON THEM.

MUNA FOR THE EDUCATORS WHO ARE GOING TO BE WATCHING THIS AND LISTENING TO THIS, WHAT IS A TAKEAWAY IN TERMS OF HOW THEY HANDLE SENSITIVE TOPICS IN THE CLASSROOM?

KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING BECAUSE YOU'RE SO GOOD. YOU'RE SO GOOD AT IT. AND WHEN I SIT BESIDE A STUDENT WHO GRADUATED FROM OUR PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM, WHO'S ABSOLUTELY ROCKING IT IN EVERY WAY SHE IS, IT'S A TESTAMENT TO THE INCREDIBLE WORK THAT THE 60,000 OSSTF MEMBERS IN ONTARIO DO, AND SO KEEP APPROACHING PUBLIC EDUCATION FROM A PLACE OF CARING AND KINDNESS, AND KEEP BEING THOSE INCREDIBLE CURRICULUM EXPERTS WHO PUT STUDENTS FIRST. AND SO MY MESSAGE ISN'T SO MUCH TO THE TEACHERS IN OUR PROVINCE WHO I KNOW ARE PUTTING STUDENTS FIRST. IT'S TO THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION IS TO BUILD CONFIDENCE IN A SYSTEM THAT'S WORKING SO WELL FOR OUR STUDENTS, AND TO FUND IT APPROPRIATELY, SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS IN YOUR CLASSROOM WITHOUT 40 OTHER STUDENTS IN THE CLASS. CAN YOU IMAGINE A DEBATE? YOU EXPERIENCED IT WITH 40 STUDENTS DISCUSSING SOMETHING REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT, OR SCHOOLS APPROPRIATELY SMALLER CLASS SIZES. TRUST YOUR EDUCATORS AND BUILD CONFIDENCE AMONG FAMILIES. I SEND MY CHILD TO SCHOOL BECAUSE I LOVE OUR PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM. SO MESSAGE NOT TO MY COLLEAGUES IS THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION.

ALL RIGHT, SARAH, YOU GET THE LAST QUESTION. YOU'RE A UNIVERSITY NOW, AS WE MENTIONED, AND YOU MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT YOU WERE YOU DIDN'T FEEL LIKE YOU, YOU KNOW, WERE SILENCED OR ANYTHING IN HIGH SCHOOL. BUT DO YOU FEEL FREER NOW THAT YOU'RE IN UNIVERSITY? IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU CAN SAY?

I THINK THAT JUST BEING IN UNIVERSITY, YOU ARE IN A MUCH MORE CONCENTRATED GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY INTERESTED IN WHATEVER CLASS YOU'RE IN. SO I'M TAKING LIKE FOUR ETHICS CLASSES. WE ARE DEBATING EVERY SINGLE DAY.

>> TOPICS.

AND IT IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE TABOO IN IN SCHOOLS, IN HIGH SCHOOL AND THINGS LIKE THAT, AND THINGS THAT THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION OR THE FORD GOVERNMENT THAT THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT AND THINGS LIKE THAT. AND I, I'M WATCHING AS I JUST GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL, AND I'M SEEING ALL OF THESE THINGS, LIKE THE POTENTIAL REMOVAL OF SCHOOL TRUSTEES AND, AND, YOU KNOW, LIKE TRYING TO DECIDE WHAT STUDENTS OR TEACHERS CAN AND CANNOT TALK ABOUT IN SCHOOLS. AND THAT'S REALLY CONCERNING TO ME BECAUSE I DID HAVE A GREAT EXPERIENCE IN TERMS OF MY EDUCATION. AND I DON'T WANT TO SEE STUDENTS OR TEACHERS LOSE THEIR AUTONOMY IN THAT, IN THAT SENSE AND WHAT THEY CAN TALK ABOUT IN THEIR FREEDOM. BUT YEAH, IN TERMS OF UNIVERSITY, I DO THINK THAT I'M I'M SURROUNDED BY A LOT OF LIKE MINDED PEERS, PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN POLITICS, PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN DEBATING THESE THINGS. SO I DO THINK THAT IF YOU CONSTITUTE FREEDOM AS WHAT PEOPLE ARE MORE WILLING TO TALK ABOUT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE INTERESTED IN, THEN YES.

ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE IT THERE. SARAH, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. AND I THINK WE CAN BOTH AGREE THAT I THINK WE'RE IN GOOD HANDS. THE FUTURE IS TAKEN CARE OF. WE'RE GOOD.

[LAUGHTER]

>> YEAH.

>> THANK YOU.

IN THE US, MANY EMPLOYERS CAN FIRE PEOPLE FOR ALMOST ANY REASON. THAT'S NOT THE CASE IN CANADA. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T FACE CONSEQUENCES FOR WHAT YOU SAY IN THE OFFICE OR ON THE INTERNET. CHARLIE HERRERA VACAFLOR, AN EMPLOYMENT LAW AND HR SENIOR CONSULTANT AT PENINSULA CANADA, EXPLAINS.

CHARLIE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. LET'S TALK POLITICAL SPEECH IN THE WORKPLACE. HOW IS IT PROTECTED COMPARED TO RACE, GENDER OR RELIGION?

THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND SOMETHING THAT WE CONSTANTLY CLARIFY TO OUR CLIENTS AT PENINSULA, POLITICAL SPEECH IS NOT SPECIFICALLY PROTECTED IN ALL CANADIAN JURISDICTIONS. FOR INSTANCE, THE FEDERAL HUMAN RIGHTS LEGISLATION AND ONTARIO'S DO NOT PROTECT SPECIFICALLY POLITICAL SPEECH, HOWEVER MANY OTHER PROVINCES DO. NOW, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? CAN I SPECIFICALLY AND BLATANTLY BAN POLITICAL SPEECH FROM THE WORKPLACE? NO. WHAT AS AN EMPLOYER YOU CAN DO IS SET SPECIFIC GUIDELINES OF WHAT IS RESPECTFUL POLITICAL SPEECH IN THE WORKPLACE AND WHICH INSTANCES WILL BE CONSIDERED. POSSIBLY, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT IS NOT RESPECTFUL.

I THINK WHAT WE SEE OF LATE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES OF SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE SAID, AND WHAT WE SEE IS THEM BEING TERMINATED FROM THEIR JOB OR FIRED. ON WHAT GROUNDS COULD AN EMPLOYER TERMINATE SOMEONE FOR POLITICAL SPEECH?

SO AT PENINSULA, WHAT WE SAY TO OUR CLIENTS IS THAT NO TERMINATION IS RISK FREE, AND THEREFORE THESE KIND OF DECISIONS SHOULD BE WELL THOUGHT. AS I MENTIONED, POLITICAL SPEECH IS PROTECTED. AND IN SOME JURISDICTIONS, AS A HUMAN RIGHTS PROTECTED CHARACTERISTIC AND THEREFORE, DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES, A TERMINATION COULD LEAD TO A DISCRIMINATION CLAIM. THEREFORE, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE ALWAYS ESTABLISH SPECIFIC GUIDELINES OF WHAT IS ACCEPTED POLITICAL SPEECH, WHAT IS RESPECTFUL TO OTHER EMPLOYEES IN HOW TO HAVE THESE KIND OF CONVERSATIONS SO THAT EVERYONE OPERATES WITH KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS THE EXPECTED CONDUCT.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SORT OF, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WORK FROM HOME, BUT ALSO THE THE SORT OF THE INFLUENCE OF TECHNOLOGY, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE AFTER IF THEY'RE WORKING A 9 TO 5 AFTER 5:00, THEY'RE THEY'RE LIVING THEIR LIVES. AND I WANT TO MAKE A DISTINCTION. OR IS THERE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN SOMEONE WHO IS, YOU KNOW, USING SOCIAL MEDIA, TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT COULD BE CONTROVERSIAL AT HOME, ONLINE VERSUS IN THE OFFICE?

YEAH, THAT'S THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT HAS COME UP A LOT LATELY, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED AROUND CERTAIN POLITICAL FIGURES, EXPRESSIONS AND, YOU KNOW, SO THERE'S TWO APPROACHES. THE FIRST APPROACH IS HAVING, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, A WORKPLACE POLICY THAT TELLS EMPLOYEES WHAT IS THE BEST PRACTICE CONDUCT FOR THEIR WORKPLACE. THE SECOND ONE IS ALWAYS TO HAVE A TRANSPARENT AND CONSTANT COMMUNICATION WITH YOUR EMPLOYEES ABOUT WHAT, WHAT, HOW TO GO OVER SPECIFIC SITUATIONS. SO IN THIS YEAR, IT'S BEEN IT'S BEEN A HARD YEAR FOR CANADIANS BECAUSE WE HAD PLENTY OF ELECTIONS. WE ARE COMING OUT OR WE'RE GOING THROUGH, YOU KNOW, TURMOIL OF A RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR CLOSEST NEIGHBOR. AND, YOU KNOW, FOLKS HAVE THE YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO SAY SOMETHING.

>> HAVE A LOT TO SAY.

YEAH, EXACTLY. I MEAN, WE'RE PEOPLE WE'RE, YOU KNOW, AND AND SO IN THAT REGARD, IT'S ALWAYS IMPORTANT TO FOR EMPLOYERS TO SAY BEFORE YOU WANT TO SAY SOMETHING, MAKE SURE IF IF YOU REALLY HAVE TO, IF YOU REALLY HAVE TO, AND IF YOU REALLY HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN CAVEATS OR THERE ARE CERTAIN PROTECTIONS THAT ARE IN PLACE, IS YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA, DOES YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA HAVE YOUR COMPANY AFFILIATION? IS YOUR LIKE A SPECIFIC NAME THERE? YOU KNOW, THOSE THINGS. AND THEN OF COURSE, LET'S TRY TO MODERATE THE WAY THAT WE EXPRESS OURSELVES, YOU KNOW. HATEFUL SPEECH, YOU KNOW, CAN ALWAYS BRING PROBLEMS NOT ONLY FOR ONESELF BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE HAVING YOUR COMPANY AFFILIATION ATTACHED TO THAT, IT COULD BRING REPUTATIONAL PROBLEMS FOR THE COMPANY. AND THAT IS WHERE A WORKPLACE POLICY BEST ADDRESSES THOSE KIND OF INSTANCES.

ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOME REAL LIFE EXAMPLES. WE ASKED THE MARKET RESEARCH FIRM ADVANCED SYMBOLICS INC. WHICH USES ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE TECHNOLOGY KNOWN AS POLY, TO FIND OUT WHAT TOPICS PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT IN THE WORKPLACE. AND THE NUMBER ONE TOPIC CAME UP AS CHARLIE KIRK, NOT CHARLIE YOU, BUT CHARLIE KIRK, WHICH FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW A RIGHT WING COMMENTATOR WHO WAS KILLED IN UTAH ON CAMPUS LAST MONTH, AND WHAT THEY FOUND WAS THAT ANY CONVERSATION AROUND CHARLIE KIRK QUICKLY ESCALATED INTO HEATED ARGUMENTS OR ACCUSATIONS, AND THERE WAS A PALPABLE SENSE THAT ANY COMMENT COULD BE MISREPRESENTED OR WEAPONIZED BY COLLEAGUES WITH OPPOSING VIEWS. WITH THIS SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, DO PEOPLE NEED TO BE AFRAID OF WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT HIM?

YOU KNOW, THAT STATEMENT IN ITSELF IS IS VERY DANGEROUS WHEN PEOPLE LIVE WITH FEAR ABOUT WHAT THEIR THOUGHTS ARE AND THEIR EXPRESSIONS, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT HAVE GONE WRONG BEFORE. NOW WE'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO ADDRESS THEM. WHAT I'VE SAID BEFORE, IN PART ABOUT THE PUBLICATIONS THAT WE DO, IS THAT BOTH EMPLOYEES AND EMPLOYERS HAVE ARE GOING THROUGH A LOT OF CHANGES, AND THE VELOCITY OF THESE CHANGES IS UNPRECEDENTED. PACE LEGISLATION IS BEING COMING UP, NEW THINGS ARE HAPPENING. YOU KNOW, THERE'S TENSION GROWING AND THEN PEOPLE JUST REACT. AND IN THIS REACTION IS WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE PROBLEMS, THE TENSION COMES AND THE FEAR ENSUES, BOTH FOR THE EMPLOYEE AND THE EMPLOYER. IN THESE SITUATIONS, I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE IS A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, TENSION AND JUST UNCERTAINTY ABOUT HOW TO MANAGE THESE SITUATIONS. BUT I THINK THE KEY ONE IS EMPATHY. HOW HOW IS MY EXPRESSION GOING TO BE RECEIVED BY THE OTHER PERSON? AND IF ANOTHER PERSON WERE TO SAY SOMETHING THAT I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH, HOW SHOULD I HOW WILL I RECEIVE THAT? AND I THINK THAT THAT IS ONE OF THE KEY MESSAGES THAT ALL EMPLOYERS SHOULD BE PUTTING OUT THERE IS, YOU KNOW, HAVE MORE EMPATHY IN THE WAY THAT YOU EXPRESS YOURSELF, BECAUSE, HOWEVER, YOU MAY BE HURTING OTHER PEOPLE, YOU MAY ALSO BE SUBJECT TO THAT. AND WHEN, WHEN IF WE DON'T DO THAT, THE PROBLEM IS THAT SITUATIONS WILL ESCALATE. AND, YOU KNOW, MAY THAT NEVER HAPPEN, THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE VIOLENCE IN THE WORKPLACE. ONE OF THE KEY THINGS THAT WE TELL ALL OUR EMPLOYERS, OUR CLIENTS, IS THAT THEY HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO HAVE A RESPECTFUL WORK ENVIRONMENT THAT IS AN ACTUAL LEGAL OBLIGATION. AND SO IF EMPLOYERS CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT EMPLOYEES CAN HAVE A GOOD RESOURCE TO GO AGAINST THEIR BUSINESSES. SO THIS ALSO CLARIFIES WHY EMPLOYERS ARE ALSO FEEL VERY TENSE.

I WANT TO GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING FROM THE EMPLOYEE SIDE OF THINGS. WE TALK ABOUT SORT OF THE WITCH HUNT. WE TALK ABOUT THE PRESSURE THAT EMPLOYERS HAVE TO PUT OUT A STATEMENT. IF AN EMPLOYEE IS FIRED FOR POSTING SOMETHING OFFENSIVE ABOUT CHARLIE KIRK OR ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, WHAT RECOURSE DOES THE EMPLOYEE HAVE TO CHALLENGE THEIR TERMINATION? SOMETIMES IT MAY SEEM THAT EMPLOYERS ARE BEING QUICK BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO RESPOND IN A WE'RE IN A TIME AND AGE WHERE IF YOU DON'T SEE A RESPONSE OR SOMEONE HAS BEEN FIRED FROM THEIR JOB, THEN SOMETHING IS NOT BEING DONE. BUT ON THE EMPLOYEE SIDE, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN DO?

WE'RE VERY CAREFUL AT PENINSULA TO ALWAYS TELL OUR EMPLOYERS, YOUR EMPLOYEE HAS RIGHTS. YOUR EMPLOYEE HAS GUARANTEES THAT YOU NEED TO RESPECT. FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS SPECIFICALLY ONE OF THEM. AND IN CERTAIN JURISDICTIONS, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, POLITICAL SPEECH IS SPECIFICALLY PROTECTED. SO THAT MEANS THAT OPERATING THROUGH TERMINATION OR UNREASONABLE DISCIPLINARY ACTION CAN WARRANT YOU A HUMAN RIGHTS CLAIM. WHAT WE DO TELL OUR OUR CLIENTS TO COMMUNICATE WITH THEIR EMPLOYEES IS HOW TO MANAGE THIS IN A SITUATION THAT ALLOWS THEM TO HAVE THE FREEDOM, BUT ALSO MAKES THEM AWARE THAT THEIR SPEECH AND THE WAY THAT THEY VOICE IT, CAN BE PUT UNDER SCRUTINY.

IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THERE ARE BLURRED LINES. YEAH. THIS IS WE'RE TALKING THIS IS A SOMETIMES IT'S VERY CLEAR AS TO WHAT IS POLITICAL SPEECH AND WHAT COULD BE CONSIDERED HATEFUL, BUT TO WHAT EXTENT IS SPEECH IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER? I WANT TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. YOU KNOW THE PHRASE FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE MIGHT BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME PEOPLE, BUT NOT TO OTHERS. HOW DO EMPLOYERS NAVIGATE THE NUANCE OF THAT?

SO EVERYBODY IS ENTITLED TO A SPECIFIC VIEW ON A SPECIFIC TENSION, RIGHT. AND WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WAR, THAT WILL ALWAYS HAVE GRAY AREAS, THE SPECIFIC WAY IS TO ENSURE THAT THE WORKPLACE AS A WHOLE IS ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD, NO MATTER HOW IT'S BEING SAID, NO MATTER WHAT IS BEING SAID. BECAUSE WHAT CAN BE OFFENSIVE TO SOMEBODY MAY NOT BE OFFENSIVE TO OTHERS AND VICE VERSA. SO THE ISSUE HERE IS HOW CAN WE MOVE TOGETHER IN A WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DON'T SEPARATE, PEOPLE DON'T CREATE VIOLENCE, PEOPLE DON'T CREATE TENSION. I ALWAYS SAY THAT WITH THE MOST CLEAR CUT WAYS WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE LGBTQ PLUS COMMUNITY, SOMETHING LIKE A PRONOUN MEANS EVERYTHING FOR THAT COMMUNITY BECAUSE IT'S TALKING ABOUT NOT ONLY THEIR IDENTITY, BUT THE WAY THAT THEY EXPRESS THEMSELVES. AND HAVING A COMMENT ABOUT THAT MAY BE LIKE SOMETHING IN PASSING FOR MANY FOLKS, BUT FOR THAT COMMUNITY, IT'S EVERYTHING. AND NOT BEING RESPECTFUL ABOUT THAT. IT'S LITERALLY NEGATING THEIR EXISTENCE. SO EXPRESSIONS FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA MAY MEAN, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING TOTALLY RIGHTFUL AND CHAMPION FOR SOME, BUT FOR THE OTHER ONES HAS TO DO WITH THEIR EXISTENCE AS WELL.

CHARLIE, WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE IT THERE. REALLY APPRECIATE IT. SOME GOOD FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOR EMPLOYEES AND EMPLOYERS.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

AND THAT'S IT FOR US HERE AT THE RUNDOWN. CREATING A NEW SHOW IS AN OPPORTUNITY, AND WE WANT YOUR HELP. WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT? WHAT MAKES YOU WATCH? EMAIL US AT THERUNDOWN@TVO.ORG OR REACH OUT TO ME ON INSTAGRAM AT JEYAN JEGANATHAN AND LET US KNOW WHAT