多伦多市长候选人电视辩论：邹至蕙与布拉德福德聚焦住房、财政与交通议题

Steve Paikin: Hi, everybody. And welcome to this Toronto mayoral debate brought to you by TVO Today Live and the Rotman School of Management. There are 53 people running to be the next mayor of Toronto. But the winner will be one of these two. We are in Desautels Hall at Rotman on the grounds of the University of Toronto's downtown campus. We have a very big audience in this room tonight, and we urge them to listen to the debate without interrupting with overly dramatic applause. Except for now, as we welcome in alphabetical order, Councillor Brad Bradford and Mayor Olivia Chow. Now welcome you to tonight. We're glad you could carve time out of your schedules to be with us here and have what is only, I think, what is this, the sixth or seventh or eighth debate that you guys have done.

Brad Bradford: Something like that?

Steve Paikin: Something like that. Not like when you first ran for mayor and there were a hundred of them. Things have gotten more sensible in the intervening years. However, let us say that you two have done this enough that we don't need to spend a lot of time going through rules and clocks and all that business. Right now, there's the clock, the times on it. We have six segments tonight. So let's get started. We're going to start with housing. Neither of you, as you well know, have the power of a prime minister or a Premier. How can a mayor actually put a dent in housing affordability? We drew lots. Brad Bradford the first minute and a half is yours.

Brad Bradford: Well, thanks very much, Steve, and thanks for having us tonight. And good evening, everyone. This is a topic that really matters a lot to me. I'm very passionate about this. My background is in urban planning. That's my professional training and my life's work. I actually ran for council to build more housing, and the other reason this is important is because housing is one of the biggest challenges most folks are facing on the affordability front here in the city. Toronto Star had a recent survey that found three out of four renters in this city feel like owning a home will never be a reality for them. And it should be about choice. When I was the chair of the Planning and Housing Committee in the previous term, we did a lot of work to increase housing supply, more housing options in more neighbourhoods. We brought forward a plan to legalize multiplex and laneway suites, and we removed a lot of the barriers to get housing built quicker. Unfortunately, what we've seen in the past three years is more delays, more slowdowns, more promises made that haven't materialized. Mayor Chow's housing plan called for 65,000 new housing units by 2030. Unfortunately, today we only have 1400 of them constructed. That's 2% of the target. And if we kept going at that pace, it would take 115 years to deliver on that commitment. The bottom line is we need more housing options and more neighbourhoods. We know what works. Reducing the delays, making it easier to build and making sure that we're doing it faster. That is the job of local government. Create the conditions where it is viable to build the housing and the type of supply that people need.

Steve Paikin: That's time. That's right to time. Thank you, Mr. Bradford. Mayor Chow, a minute and a half. The microphone is yours.

Olivia Chow: I wake up every morning thinking about and working on how to build more housing. We have a housing crisis, and for a long time, more than a decade, no housing that people can afford have been built under my watch. 15,000 homes are being built right now, being constructed as we speak. It's so when you go outside and see seven out of ten cranes in the sky is because of my incentive, financial incentive. That's why they are building. They're building faster because before I came in under Councillor Bradford, he was it was the slowest application ever. It took three and a half years to approve. Now it is 80% faster and there's a lot more to do. We need to make sure that the renters can stay in their homes. And I am continue to build. We are building another 10,000 units of housing. And let me tell you, because Prime Minister Carney has confidence in my administration, I can now take off $48,000 for every 2 or 3 bedrooms, units of housing that can be built. That is a lot cheaper to build, which means that when you buy one or you're renting, you are going to be able to afford it.

Steve Paikin: That's our opening statement. So as you can see, we've added thank you, thank you. We've added six minutes to the clock now. And after each set of opening statements, we'll have open debate again by lot. Brad Bradford, you are permitted the first intervention here. Is there anything you want to ask Mayor Chow about her housing record?

Brad Bradford: Well, I would just say that you talk about speeding up.

Olivia Chow: Approvals, but the part that you didn't mention is that

Brad Bradford: Approvals, but the part that you didn't mention is that you've actually said no to 60% of those housing applications. So you have said no to 60% of the applications that have come fast forward. And of course, it's faster to land on. No, but that doesn't get more housing built. And I think the point that folks at home need to understand is, you know, you talk about all the city led housing that's going on, if completely tanked the market here for anybody else, whether it's the not for profit sector or private sector that would like to build housing here in this city, the conditions are not there. And that is why it is only the city. And I think most folks out there understand that, you know, the government generally doesn't build things faster for less money than the private sector. And so that's why we really need to focus on creating the conditions where whether you are a not for profit or a charity or a market builder, it is financially viable to build housing and housing starts haveac

Moderator: ...tually a have you turn it over. But housing starts are at a 30 year low right now. So that's not a good news story. Olivia Chow.

Olivia Chow: Well, on the pipeline being approved. It's 300,000 units of housing. You know why they can't build because it's so expensive to build. The fact that I can take out $48,000, $48,000 out of every 2 or 3 bedrooms, that means that the market is going to open up. In fact, because of my work, at least 10 or 15,000 of those housing, even though the market is frozen, are now being built.

Olivia Chow: And let me tell you about something else about housing. We need to remember the renters. Counsellor, you have not stood up for renters in your own ward because I've gone into Dawes Road, which is right in your area, and my God, there were cockroaches running around in the building and the roof was leaking. It is terrible and nothing was done. You didn't even go to visit it. So for me, I had to step in. We took that landlord to court and as a result, and she had to pay $1 million. We came in and fixed the building...

Olivia Chow: ...and when you. You have to talk about renters also, because half of Torontonians are renters and you need to build housing they can afford, but also protect tenants. And I will always stand up for the rights of renters.

Brad Bradford: I'm going to have to correct the record because that's not true. Madam Mayor. This has been a problem landlord, that has existed for many, many years. In my first term as councillor after Janet Davis had the file. You know, we levied 70 different orders on that building, and we have taken them to court. And in fact, we had landed the largest charge against the problematic landlord in the city's history. And we worked together to continue to do that work.

Brad Bradford: It was only since we entered into a political campaign that you decided to show up at 500 Dawes Road, and, and I think a lot of people understand that 50% of the population does rent here in the city. And that's why we need a real plan to increase purpose built rental. That's why, you know, my planning background and the experience there created the conditions so that we could build what we call the missing middle, the type of gentle density in our neighbourhood that opens up new parts of the city to the type of gentle intensification that works really well for families or for seniors that want to downsize.

Brad Bradford: And I led on that file, approving a missing middle pilot a couple streets over from where I live at Danforth and Woodbine, and it's creating a new type of model, particularly for the not for profit sector. So I have a plan for renters. It's it's a three point plan. We are going to keep your home. We're going to be very stringent on Renovictions. We're going to make sure that we have the bylaws in place to actually do the enforcement. It's great to do a photo op and a press announcement, but you need the resources in there to do it.

Moderator: Let's get a response from Mayor Chow.

Olivia Chow: Yeah, well, actually, you didn't get it done, did you? Because you did not take the time to go visit them. The the tenants were looking for you and you wouldn't meet with them. That's why they turned to me. And because we took them to court, it finally worked. And we finally got housing built. Rental units are finally now cleaned up. That's not true because the city moved in. Go and talk to the tenants. They said very clearly it didn't get done.

Olivia Chow: But think about this Renoviction we know that happened. And I brought in a bylaw to stop this bogus reason. This landlord gets to kick you out because of our renovation. So now it's gone. You do not get renovicted. And thank God we protected the rights of tenants.

Olivia Chow: Not only is that you talked about the whole notion of being able to do the missing middle. Yes. Of course, under my watch, I have taken out all the charges that a city would even ask the. These multiplex or backyard laneway. And as we saw, finally we got a building because we are making it a lot cheaper and faster to make it happen.

Moderator: Mr. Bradford.

Brad Bradford: And anyone that knows and anyone that's built missing middle knows that was the work that I did with the Housing Action Plan, aligning the CMHC, finding financing policies to the number of units that people are doing. Everybody knows that is in the space, Madam Mayor.

Brad Bradford: But, you know, I got to say, the Renovictions we need to publish that data. That's something I've moved motions for. You voted against it. We need to hold the city to account, just like we need to hold problematic landlords to account. Hang on a second. Like we need to publish that data. And that's why we...

Olivia Chow: No, that's not true. That's not true.

Brad Bradford: Madam mayor, and I don't know why you wouldn't want to be more transparent about this and put it online so that tenants can actually see, you know, what type of landlord they're dealing with when they move in the building. Transparency for local government is paramount. And time and time again, when it comes to the housing file, you want to keep people in the dark. I want it to bring it to the light.

Moderator: Candidates. That is our time for this segment. That is section one. We now move on to section two. I'm going to gently remind the audience about needless cheering like it's a football game. This is a mayoral debate after all. We're going to talk homelessness and supportive housing in this section. Mayor Chow, you've got the first minute 30 to respond to this question about chronic homelessness. What plans do you have?

Olivia Chow: Yeah. Oh, it's difficult, because what happens is that you go to shelters and perhaps because of addiction or mental health issues, or you just don't have enough money, you're t...

Mayor Chow: ...wrapped. Let me tell you the story of Jason. Jason has been on the street for six years, and it was a difficult life. He was in and out of jail also, and it gotten so bad because he keeps trying to quit his addiction. And it got so bad that he decided to end his life. And thank God he was not able to be successful.

And a housing worker employed by the city went to him. "Jason, give it another try. I have a home for you. Here's a home that myself and you and Prime Minister Carney have built to well, this his funding called house."

Jason came into it and my God, his life transformed. Instead of being addicted, he got addicted to become a gardener. He grew so many cucumbers. He had gave it away. He's now the role model. He has transformed his life. He found hope and he's serving his community.

I am not just building one house. We're building many more supportive housing. I have 600 more units being constructed right now. If elected, there'll be so many.

Councillor Bradford: More to help.

Mayor Chow: People like.

Mayor Chow: Jason.

Moderator: Come on guys, come on, come on. Councillor Bradford, your minute 30 starts now.

Councillor Bradford: Yeah, it's a lot of promises and a lot of rhetoric, but it's not a lot of results. We know what works. Supportive housing. You know that's what you need. You need to make sure that these folks have a pathway out of the shelter in, into a place where they have stability, the dignity of a roof over their head and the wraparound support so that they can be successful.

And, you know, I can tell you in my first term in council, that was one of the most difficult things that I did as a local councillor was build supportive housing. Just down the street from where I live. And, you know, there was a lot of concern from the community. There was a lot of pushback, but we worked through that. We had those conversations. And, you know, I went and knocked on the doors of all the streets and all the neighbours in the area. Actually, former Mayor John Tory came and did that work with me because he was he was one of those guys that believed in showing up and putting in the work.

And what we found now with the operator is Woodgreen is we have now transformed the lives of 48 individuals who have access to whether that might be social work or mental health supports or medication. They pay rent, albeit significantly subsidized, and they make a really positive contribution to the community.

And the folks at the time who had a lot of concerns and apprehension, they have now come forward afterwards and said, you know what? We were unsure about this, but the way that you handled it as a local councillor, the way that the city was able to do this, it's actually been a really positive result for the community. So that is the way forward. The problem is we haven't done enough of that over the past three years. That is the pathway. And when I'm mayor, we're going to do that a lot faster because that's how we help people. Thank you for On the Streets.

Moderator: Thank you for that statement, Councillor Bradford, we put six minutes on the clock now. And as we get into Mayor Chow, you're going to have the first intervention during the open debate portion here.

We have to strike a balance here. We need compassion for those who are struggling with addiction and mental health issues. They are among the most difficult to house, and they make up a significant number, as you both know, of the people who need our shelters, we also know that when people engage in open drug use or sleep on the subways, it changes the character of those public spaces. And it also makes a lot of people nervous about their own public safety.

So that's the balance. What do we do? Mayor Chow, you first.

Mayor Chow: It's a very good point. So you want six minutes on this?

Mayor Chow: I don't want six minutes on that. That's six minutes for debate. Okay. You got the first intervention.

Mayor Chow: I got it. I understand that I live in downtown. I see how that it is something that it is hard. It is difficult. And I see what you see and I understand how you can feel and think about the 4000 people that are off the street now that are now in housing.

And think about the Jason's we can do it. We have done there's 500 units already open and like Nami and many, they are already getting inside. And there's really a choice in this stage that my plan bring people inside.

And it is important that we do it very fast. Yes, my speed of getting a supportive housing that was on Ossington, it was just in a couple of weeks, and it was because of modular housing. Yes, we can build it fast. That's why in very short time we have hundreds of supportive housing being built.

Moderator: Councillor Bradford, you want to come back on that?

Councillor Bradford: Well, I would just say that it's a difficult issue, but the pace that Mayor Chow has suggested that we should be accepting is inadequate. You know, over her term. We still we still have 20,000 people who are sleeping rough on the streets, in the parks, on our transit system. And while there has been some improvement, it's not good enough. Eight, 8% improvement over three and a half years is, is not a report card that you're going to put on the fridge.

And so we know it works. You heard her talk about done house one. Excellent. There is now funding for done House two. But I want to talk about done House three and four and five and six.

And I think the problem in Toronto and respectfully the problem with Mayor Chow's leadership is it's more the same. It's status quo. And there's not that urgency to address these types of urgent issues. What we're doing right now is not working. And the space that the speed at which we're moving is unacceptable. We know it works. We have to have the determination and the urgency. And a mayor who's actually g

Councillor Brad Bradford: ...going to be seized and engaged with these files, it's not enough to just make the announcements and do the photos. You have to bring the staff together. The not for profit partners.

Moderator (Steve): Work with.

Councillor Brad Bradford: The province and the federal government to get it done.

Moderator (Steve): Equal time for mayor.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Councillor, miss the press conference I had with the Minister of Housing just two weeks ago where we announced funding together with Yukon for House three, four and five. And at that place I said to Jason, I promise him we're going to do ten. We're going to get to done. House number ten. We are building it.

And let me say there's one more thing. Let us prevent people from getting evicted in the first place. Because once you become homeless, it's tough. So through sometimes no fault of your own, maybe because you have a root canal, it might cost a few thousand bucks. You've been able to be housed all this time, and because of something that emergency happened, you're two months behind your rent. You get an eviction notice. If you are stably housed, the city will step in through the rent bank, and I've doubled the amount in rent bank. And as a result, thousands of people have been prevented to become homeless. That is the solution prevent people from being evicted. And for people that are leaving abusive relationships, we help them put the first and last month in so they can get back on their feet. All of that is so important to prevent people to become homeless in the first place.

Councillor Brad Bradford: Councillor Bradford and I think we all agree the Epic program, which was started under the previous mayor, is something that's really important and that's why we continue to support it, and something that I would continue to support in my administration, because, of course, it's better to prevent people from falling into the cycle of homelessness.

But then again, like we have to move faster and get better results for the folks who are experiencing homelessness right now. And it's 20,000 people on the streets of Toronto and 8% improvement over three and a half years is not victory. That's more of the same. The problem is getting worse. And, you know, just go spend time outside of Union Station or Queen and Bathurst or go to Kipling station. That's all you have to do to see what we're doing is not working.

Moderator (Steve): So what would you do?

Councillor Brad Bradford: And so we have to do it faster. We have to build the supportive housing. And and honestly, at the pace it's been going right now, it's totally inadequate. We also have to recognize that some of these people need treatment and support that they're not getting. It's not a compassionate response from local government to have somebody laying on the sidewalk or somebody who is engaging in open air drug use on, on our streetcars or encampments.

Mayor Olivia Chow: In the.

Councillor Brad Bradford: Park, that for a country as wealthy as Canada and a city as prosperous as Toronto, that is not an acceptable response in this city. And, you know, I have just seen more of the same from this administration without the courage to do some of the difficult but necessary things to get these people to treatment and the support they need.

Moderator (Steve): Let's save a minute for Mayor Chow. Yes.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Speaking about courage, you wanted to bring people in. You want to do it faster. I've done it. You voted against a shelter. A shelter for seniors. And I. I am sorry that I see your voting record. Let me let me walk you through election time. You talk about something else. It is clear that is a shelter, if I may, Steve, you voted against it. If I may, Steve, allow me to say, though, that.

Moderator (Steve): You made an allegation. We should we should get a response to that.

Councillor Brad Bradford: I've built a women's shelter on Queen Street in Beaches-East York.

Mayor Olivia Chow: I'm talking.

Councillor Brad Bradford: About built. Hang on, let me finish. I built supportive housing in East York, and most recently we've just worked with the two spirit Organization to build up an emergency shelter. But you. Shelter what you haven't done. Mayor Chow and I think this is a fair critique of your entire administration. You have not built the capacity and the support with community. So these things can be successful. That's why I went and knocked doors with John Tory to talk to the community, to hear their feedback and build the goodwill and support of a community. You've never done that.

Mayor Olivia Chow: You don't take.

Councillor Brad Bradford: The time to.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Show up.

Councillor Brad Bradford: And do that work.

Moderator (Steve): Candidates. That's our time in this segment here. I'm going to jump in right now so we can stay on time here. Section three comes up next and that is on economic development. And again, I like to start each section with just a very neutral, short, punchy question. As we put a minute 30 back on the clock. Brad Bradford You get the first response this time. How would you improve Toronto's economy?

Councillor Brad Bradford: There's lots of room for improvement because Toronto is the economic engine of this country, and we need an administration that recognizes and does everything we can to strengthen that. Let's get real. President Trump is attacking our sovereignty. He is attacking our economy, and he's coming to steal our jobs. As mayor, I am going to make sure that this is the number one destination in the country and competitive around the world for talent, for capital and for investment.

We have not had an administration under Mayor Chow that is focused on the economy at all. And it's regrettable. And the numbers are such that we have among the highest youth unemployment rate, 17% of any major city in the country. That number is, in fact, 4% higher than the national average, despite having some of the best colleges and best universities, skilled tradespeople right here in Toronto. And they're out of work, that is unacceptable. I have a plan to create a Toront...

Councillor Bradford: ...to Youth economic challenge, where I'm going to leverage the 1.4 million private sector jobs here in the city, all the headquarters of the big companies, the new founders that are going to stay here. And we're going to work together to create public commitments, to hiring permanent, full time jobs, not summer jobs at the, you know, at the wading pool, but full time jobs for careers for folks under 30. We're going to publish that data, and we're going to hold those organizations and the city to account. This is what they've done in New York City with 65,000 jobs. They've done it in Los Angeles. They've done it with Chicago. It is time for a local government and administration that takes economic prosperity seriously.

Moderator: Councillor Bradford. All right. Okay. Thanks. Everybody. A minute and a half on the clock to you, Mayor Chow.

Mayor Chow: I know that behind every small business in this city is a family that make ends meet. I know time is really tough right now because of the Trump tariff, and we need to build Toronto strong, strong. And that's precisely what we're doing because of the TTC investment that I put in. We are bringing in Hitachi. That is fixing and renewing the signal in the TTC subway station. And they are creating thousands of jobs right in Scarborough, not only Hitachi, Toyota is building a headquarter here. And yes, and creating thousands of jobs. And I can go on Atlantic packaging and 40,000 jobs are being created because of the housing that the housing that I was talking about earlier. So jobs are being created. And I have the confidence of the Prime Minister. That's why he's investing in the city. That's why he's joined with us to recently. For example, we have gone to the Sanofi. Again, that's close to $1 billion investment right here in the city, creating thousands, hundreds of jobs. And Sanofi. So things are happening. Let us keep going forward.

Moderator: Thank you. That's time. Let's get six minutes on the clock here and then okay everybody. Okay. Okay. The mayor Councillor Bradford, you get the first intervention here. The mayor thinks she's got a good story to tell on bringing outside investment into the capital city of the province of Ontario. What say you?

Councillor Bradford: Well, I disagree. I mean, I look at the fact that 77,000 people left the city of Toronto last year in a flight for affordability, a flight for opportunity and a flight for safety. That's not a good news story. You know, we were at a debate last week at TMU, and there was a young student there who stood up and asked us a question about jobs and employment. Mayor Chow's response was to talk about Nuit Blanche and street festivals. My response was to talk about the 15,000 private sector jobs that we're going to create for young people who are studying in this city, and we want to retain that talent that is the most important thing. If we want to compete north, south, across with the U.S. if we want to compete around the world, we have to be a safe city, a city where there are housing options that a workforce can afford, and a city where there's economic opportunity for people to learn in a job, grow and move up. That is the basic foundation for a thriving and successful city. That is the formula for prosperity. And we have just not talked enough about that under this administration. And we certainly haven't seen the results.

How are we going to improve our competitiveness? I'll tell you this strengthening our resilience against the tariff war in the US. I have proposed a 25% property tax reduction for the duration of this tariff battle for our industrial property class here in the city, because the manufacturing jobs that we have today are so vital, they are so high quality. And when those jobs leave, they're never coming back. When I put that forward at council, Mayor Chow voted against it.

Mayor Chow: Excuse me. Hang on a second. You did. Folks, there is a program in the city of Toronto that exempts any property tax increases for companies that expand their footprint. Right here in Toronto, it's called edge. It was under my watch that this was introduced deferral until November. Let me well, and then it ended. Allow you know, allowed me to finish. Councillor also because we are going to be building very soon the Edmonton East. Sorry pardon me, the Scarborough East L.R.T. As a result, we can ask the people that are actually building it to provide 20% of the investment into providing local jobs for young people. And that is called community benefits. We did it in Regent Park. We did it over when during the cross town is being done, and I am asking the same thing. We have to take the Team Canada approach folks, and it is businesses. Toronto businesses need stability. What we can't do is to take risk on the councillor. That just keeps changing his mind. We. In this time of stability, we have to come together, be optimistic, say to the businesses that we trust you. We know you can be optimistic and invest in Toronto. Okay, let's get a response. For example, have provided a great investment.

Councillor Bradford: I got.

Moderator: To be fair.

Moderator: It's got to be fair with the time here. Let's go. Councillor Bradford.

Councillor Bradford: Okay, a couple of things that we got to correct there. A couple things we need to correct. First of all, the program that you're referring to, Madam Mayor, was a tax deferral just giving the manufacturers the bill. Later. That bill came due in November. That is not strengthening our competitiveness. That's why I've said it's a 25%. Hang on. Let me.

Mayor Chow: Finish, please.

Councillor Bradford: No, let me finish. I let you talk for a long time. I would like to make my point. Sorry if I may. If I may.

Moderator: Please, please. Audience.

Councillor Bradford: I got interrupted. Honestly.

Moderator: Times

Moderator: Councillor Bradford has the floor. About the issue. Councillor Bradford has the floor.

Brad Bradford: Yeah, so it was a deferral. What we needed to do—what we need to do is increase our competitiveness, reduce the taxes. The piece here about promising jobs on an unfunded project is not realistic. It's not compassionate. It's not reflective of the world that we're living in. That is why back in May, when you decoupled the Scarborough Eglinton East LRT from the downtown waterfront LRT, you forgot about Scarborough. You forgot about everybody east of Victoria Park. And I had to come to council to remind you about that project, to remind you that people in Scarborough have been waiting for years and years for higher order transit. As an NDP MP, you've made your entire career fighting against the Scarborough subway, fighting against...

Moderator: If I could jump in only because we are going to come to transit and this is about outside investment into the city.

Brad Bradford: So what I would say is it is not a realistic job strategy to promise jobs and commitments on a project and a line that you have never taken a meeting on trying to get funding. I have committed that I will go to Queen's Park and Ottawa within the first 100 days of taking office to hammer out a funding agreement for the Scarborough Eglinton East LRT, because it's my number one transit project, not just for Scarborough, but for the entire...

Olivia Chow: City, but allow me to say, you know, you know, why Sanofi, Hitachi, Toyota, all of these companies are investing and expanding their business? Because under my watch, under my leadership, the credit rating of the city of Toronto for the first time in 23 years went up to AA+.

Brad Bradford: That...

Olivia Chow: The international bond market believes that we run a tight ship right here in the city of Toronto. That's why they have the faith. They said, yeah, because of that, we will invest in the city of Toronto.

Moderator: 30 seconds here for Councillor Bradford. Let me say forgive me. Let me save 30 seconds for Councillor Bradford. Talk about what brings outside investment into the city.

Brad Bradford: Well, it's not the credit rating, and in fact the credit rating is going to go up because you've increased the taxes by 20%. And, you know, homeowners can't afford that. Renters can't afford that. Small businesses can't afford that. The manufacturers are fighting tooth and nail to keep their jobs in this city. You raise the taxes, the highest tax hike in the city's history. So of course, the credit rating goes up. But people aren't asking, you know, the seniors that are struggling, you know, month to month trying to pay the bills. They're not saying, oh my goodness, what is the credit rating? They're saying, how much more are you going to raise my taxes?

Olivia Chow: Coincidentally...

Moderator: We are—we are going to—hang on folks. I thought the question...

Olivia Chow: Was about trade and bringing business...

Brad Bradford: That's what you don't understand is the tax rate is an important part...

Moderator: Of economic decision. It seems you both want to go here already anyway, so let's do it. Section four is on city revenues and affordability. As people who have your jobs, do you make promises you need to figure out how to fund those promises? Promises. I'd like to know how you will fund the promises that you have made to make living in this city more affordable. Olivia Chow, a minute and a half. The microphone is yours.

Olivia Chow: Thank you. I grew up in Saint James Town, and my mom was a maid with one income. Life was tough, but we were okay. But times are a lot tougher now. It is difficult. I do know how to make every dollar count because that is how it has to be. That's why as a mayor, making life affordable for everyone is my priority. Building housing that people can afford, feeding more kids to save your grocery dollars, keeping the TTC fare low so that by the end of the month, you don't have to worry about paying rent and feeding your kids going forward. In my next term, I'm going to even do more. Yes, build more housing and make sure that TTC—that ten rides a week, the rest of the week is free, saving you a whole lot of money and feeding your kids in school even more. That will save you so much money and you are going to say, how are we going to do this? Well, when I first came in, we had a big deficit. We have now turned a corner. That is because I was able to finally upload the Gardiner and the DVP back to the provincial government, taking those billions of dollars and allowing it to go...

Brad Bradford: To TTC.

Moderator: That's time. Thank you.

Olivia Chow: We now have that support. Thank you, thank you.

Moderator: Let's put a minute and a half back on the clock for Brad Bradford and the issue: city revenues and affordability.

Brad Bradford: Affordability is everything right now. And when I hear Madam Mayor say that she's going to come back and do more, I wonder how much more of a tax increase she can thrust upon Torontonians because they can't afford it. You know, in the last election, we stood on the stage and Mayor Chow promised everybody a modest tax increase. What she delivered was the biggest bait and switch in Toronto municipal history, with a record breaking tax increase nearly 20% over the term. People can't afford that. Seniors can't afford that. Newcomers, young families, they—they just can't afford more of these tax increases. I'm going to freeze the property taxes for the first year I'm in office. I'm going to deliver that affordability for you, and we are going to pay for it by making sure that the actuals in the budget reflect what we are collecting from taxpayers. We are going to finance our infrastructure projects with long term low interest financing. I'm going to modernize the city's budget by taking the exact same approach Prime Minister Carney has taken by sep...

Councillor Bradford: ...separating our capital and our operating budgets. No cuts to frontline services. We protect that in the operating and we fund the capital expenditures with long term low interest financing over the lifecycle of the asset. This is the exact same approach the Prime Minister Carney is taking with the federal government. It is the approach that is taken in all the provinces here in the country. And the same approach that you would take with a municipal utility. This is smarter use of taxpayer dollars, and it allows us to preserve the frontline services that everybody...

Moderator: ...depends on. Councillor Bradford, thank you. That's time. Let's go to six minutes on the clock for open debate. Olivia Chow, you get the first response on this. You know, there's been a considerable amount of discussion during the course of this campaign about the tax increases you brought in first couple of years of your term. Any regrets about bringing in tax increases that big?

Mayor Olivia Chow: Well, this year is 2% below the rate of inflation. What I promise is low tax. And around inflation. And it was hard. It was not easy. But the councillor here has promised billions of dollars of election promises and something is going to get cut. And I'm afraid that it will be your library services. Because the last time that there was going to be a review, he said, was the library was cut and all of those services that are important.

But allow me to say what I'm most—let me allowed me to say what I'm most concerned. And you should too. Councillor—Councillor wants to give away control of our drinking water to Doug Ford, not opening the door to privatization and risking our drinking water. And I will not do that. I will protect it because there's absolutely...

Councillor Bradford: No.

Mayor Olivia Chow: ...reason to.

Councillor Bradford: This is ridiculous allegation.

Moderator: Water allegation has been made. Let's get a response.

Councillor Bradford: Look, let me let me tell you this, folks. Audience, please let me tell you this.

Moderator: Enough, enough.

Councillor Bradford: This is very... much reflective of a campaign that is out of ideas, out of gas, and almost out of time.

Councillor Bradford: The fear mongering... and the scare tactics... that Mayor Chow is resorting to is—it's frankly dishonest. And it's unbecoming of the office. There's nothing scary about doing a line by line review of your budget. Now, you suggested that I was there the last time. You're going to have to get the history right. The last time this was done was in 2011, and that's kind of that you did. And that's kind of part of the problem.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Here is BYLINE.

Councillor Bradford: No no no no no, let me finish.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Every year.

Councillor Bradford: What.

Mayor Olivia Chow: We've done line by line.

Councillor Bradford: You know.

Moderator: Like he needs the floor.

Councillor Bradford: I'd like to speak.

Moderator: He needs the floor.

Councillor Bradford: So the last time this was done was in 2011, 15 years ago. So for the folks at home, I want you to think about that for a second. You probably check your credit card bill every month. Maybe you're eating out too much. Maybe there's a subscription that you forgot to cancel. But that's what we're all doing to pay the rent, put food on the table and gas in the tank.

This administration feels that there is only one solution to any challenge, and that is to raise the taxes. I am going to do the hard work, just like you work hard for your taxpayer money to go and find the savings, the waste, the efficiency that Mayor Chow and I would probably both agree exists in the Organization.

But that work hasn't been done. In fact, I've moved motions for that the past three out of four years. Every time Mayor Chow has voted against it. So I can't in good conscience go out and ask for more money when times are so tight for people without doing the hard work at City Hall to find the savings, to find the waste and the efficiencies.

Mayor Olivia Chow: And there's nothing.

Councillor Bradford: Scary about that. It's very reasonable.

Moderator: It's the mayor's turn now.

Mayor Olivia Chow: You want to talk about numbers? The number that I want to talk about is the $6 billion of election promise. You have made. What you're going to find $6 billion.

Councillor Bradford: You got that...

Mayor Olivia Chow: ...number from. Can you imagine that? Think about what needs to be, what needs to be cut. Please explain that we do the line by line every year. Come on, Councillor.

Councillor Bradford: Steve, if I may.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Councillor. Councillor, you said that we do not do line by line. That is blatantly not true. It's not because if you asked us, the city administration under my watch, we have reduced the spending this year of $170 [million]. And every year there's been a line by line review. It wasn't just the mayor voting against your idea, it was most of the councillors. In fact, 16 councillors.

Councillor Bradford: Wondering where you got the $6 billion figure.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Well, if you add up the...

Councillor Bradford: It's not in the notes.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Well, yes. Do you want me to add it up? Okay, sure. You said you want to do $300 million that you are going to do the land transfer...

Councillor Bradford: Tax for it by stop taking capital from...

Mayor Olivia Chow: Let me let. What's the capital of current?

Councillor Bradford: You should know that.

Mayor Olivia Chow: I know exactly.

Councillor Bradford: $250 million capital from current every year. You should know that to...

Mayor Olivia Chow: ...you what it is. Councillor, would you actually allow me?

Councillor Bradford: Of course.

Moderator: I know. Mayor Chow. Chow has the floor.

Mayor Olivia Chow: A home without paying down payment?

Councillor Bradford: No, that's not what it is.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Current is the is the cash you put in order to buy something. I have put away $400 million to put in the down payment.

Councillor Bradford: The mayor...

Mayor Olivia Chow: Has to do the Scarborough is LRT now. That's under his scheme. He doesn't want to pay any cash, so he's going to cut that out. That is exactly what capital of Current is taking the cash. The operating dollars, and to make sure that we have good credit rating. Because when you go and do a multibillion dollar investment, you have to put some cash down. Let me show you. 55 subway cars. How did we...

Mayor Chow: ...manage to actually get that funding? We are building, we are building as we speak, the 55 subway cars we had to put in actual cash. And then of course, we have to borrow the rest.

Moderator: Okay, let's get the last word.

Brad Bradford: Let's do the kind of work.

Moderator: Councillor Bradford has the last. Repayment in. Councillor Bradford has the floor now.

Mayor Chow: Will give.

Moderator: You. Madam Mayor. Come on. I've got to keep the time equal here. Last word to Brad Bradford. You anybody? Last word, Councillor.

Brad Bradford: Well, Torontonians can see you and everybody watching at home can see Mayor Chow hasn't spent enough time with the budget. She is not able to explain to you what capital from current is. So I will. No you didn't. You don't know what it is. It's when Madam Mayor takes $250 million from the operating budget and puts it into the capital budget, it goes into a [fund] collects very, very little interest. And as a result, inflation on the capital projects increases faster than we collect the money. And the projects don't get built.

So the smart thing to do is to do what Prime Minister Carney has done, to clearly separate capital from operating. That is what I'm going to do. We're going to engage in long term, low interest financing, just like when you get a mortgage to pay for... financing infrastructure over the long term, protect the front line services. This is a campaign that's focused on fear mongering and scare tactics. It's not going to work.

Moderator: That is our time for this segment, friends. We're going to move on now to section five. Almost at the finish line here. Section five: traffic and transit. I would like for each of you—and Brad Bradford, you get the first crack at this with a minute 30. Give us one big new idea you would champion to make a noticeable dent in congestion.

Brad Bradford: The best thing that we can do is to get people back on transit. I'm an urban planner by training, and it breaks my heart to see how few people are riding transit under Mayor Chow's administration. Despite billions of dollars coming in from the provincial government, despite a 20% tax hike, despite new transit lines opening up across the city, transit ridership is down 20% since 2019. That is seven years ago. Imagine if you had a business and you had 20% fewer customers.

Now, Mayor Chow is going to talk about the fares, $3.30. I talked to a lot of transit riders out there. They don't tell me they're not riding the trains because it costs $3.30. They tell me they're not riding it because it's not safe and reliable.

So we have a plan to fix that. I'm going to put uniformed police officers in the stations and on the transit. That is because an officer in the station provides comfort to a mom with a stroller, and a senior with a walker, helps deal with the anti-social behaviour that we see on the TTC routinely. Every day that I saw on the way over here tonight, we are going to have universal lighting and cleanliness standards. This is the broken window theory in action. If it looks and feels like TTC infrastructure is not kept up to par, that's when you start to see the anti-social behaviour that we see on the transit all the time, and we're going to build using long term interest financing, real platform edge doors, a physical barrier, separation between customers and the tracks, not the half baked half fence measures that Mayor Chow gave you, but real infrastructure befitting of a beautiful and thriving city get people back on transit.

Moderator: A minute 30 on the clock. The microphone is yours, Mayor Chow.

Mayor Chow: Nothing is more frustrating than being stuck in traffic. Whether you're in a bus or streetcar, in a car or a car and I want to give you your time back to your loved ones. Which is why if you look at the Gardiner, the Gardiner, we had to rebuild it rather than three years. We cut it by half. So a year and a half of less congestion on the Gardiner, because we did the construction much faster.

And then we got the Scarborough busway open. So now 100,000 transit riders are going to save at least an hour each week because you have the bus has its own lane. And because we did that, the cars will have fewer buses on Kennedy and Midland. So it's less congested.

We have a full fare capping because of keeping the TTC fare rides low. It's more affordable, more people are going to take public transit. We have put in more traffic agents, and we will do more so that, you know, the frustration that people are blocking the intersection. No more. We're going to eliminate that and we will get the Scarborough LRT built. We have started, we have started the engineering, the study, the drawing by spending $28 million. And it is going ahead. That's time. We need to move ahead going forward.

Moderator: That's time. And I'm just about to say, I know there's six minutes in the clock there, but I'm going to cut it off after four minutes because we're running heavy right now. Okay. And rule number one is we got to get off the air by 8:00 regardless. So away we go here. I wonder whether you two could speak to the issue if congestion is the problem, is it time to bite the bullet and usher in congestion pricing? If you want to bring your car downtown? Brad Bradford you get the first intervention on this.

Brad Bradford: You know, again, you look at cities around the world that have this: London, Singapore, the only city in North America, New York. They have some of the most robust transit networks in the entire world. And so, no, I would not support that unless we had the robust and reliable and safe transit network that provided people an option. You know, folks from across the city, because if they don't have a safe and reliable transit option to take, then it's just an additional tax on people. And that is an imp[osition]...

Councillor Bradford: ...important distinction. I agree with it as an idea, but you have to have the transit to complement. And unfortunately, Toronto took a hiatus from building transit for nearly 30 years. We're very far behind. So the city is not ready for that yet.

But I would say like, there's lots of things that we can do to improve people's commutes. And, you know, some of it's pretty basic common sense stuff. We all remember Mother's Day weekend and Mother's Day weekend. You had Barack Obama in town, you had the Toronto Temple first basketball game. You had a Blue Jays homestand, three sold out shows at the RBC stage. You had The Sporting Life, 5K and Mother's Day, which generally increases traffic 15 to 20%. And that was the weekend that Mayor Chow shut down the Gardiner and the DVP.

So my commitment to folks out there is I will never do major road closures when we have major events going on in this city.

Moderator: A comment on congestion pricing. Then if you want to respond to that.

Mayor Chow: Well, we don't have control because that congestion pricing, unfortunately, is governed by Mr. Ford.

What I won't do, though, is what you've done, and you cut taxi service and raise the fares. As a result, the huge number of riders left. This is... well, it is true because everybody experienced it. Experience before I became the mayor. Once I became the mayor, I did exactly the opposite. I increased the bus services, the subway is coming a minute faster, both in the Yonge, the Line 1 and Line 2. And then I froze the fare, which is so important because perhaps for you, it's not that important, for a family that they could actually save quite like this. This month alone, 60,000 people saved $30 a month for that. And then once we do the ten rides, the rest of the week is free. They're going to save even more.

I have a plan, and it is clear to have more traffic agent foster construction, Scarborough East LRT going ahead. It is so important that we must do that together.

And speaking, you talked about not safe. Okay. We have put, and I will continue to do more, 400 transit workers, including police officers in the TTC station. So that there would be more safety.

Moderator: Councillor Bradford.

Councillor Bradford: Yes, we need to do more. If I may. Madam Mayor, with all due respect, you don't even ride the TTC. You... of course, I know you don't. You have a private driver that comes with the office and I understand.

Although, if I may finish, if I may finish. You have a private security detail that comes with the office. I understand and appreciate that the previous mayor still rode the TTC every day, but you're not. And so when people tell you that transit isn't safe, you know, they're not experiencing it on a spreadsheet. They're experiencing riding the 505 like I do, where somebody is engaging in open air drug use on the back of the streetcar. And that is why ridership has declined in back-to-back years under your leadership. Madam Mayor, transit ridership is down. That has nothing to do with 2018, 2019. That is literally you in the office as mayor and transit ridership is down.

Streetcar reliability is only at 61% on-time performance. Buses aren't much better. So this is not a transit system that's firing on all cylinders. This is a transit system that needs a lot of focus and help. And I also think it's important that the mayor actually takes the transit on a regular basis so they can see what our transit customers are experiencing. You don't do that. You don't.

Mayor Chow: I've been riding! That Spadina streetcar. My entire family. And listen, my mum, the only way she could get to work is through public transit. Our family did not have a car, and I went everywhere through by subways and by streetcars and by buses. And so I do know the need of transit rider.

Moderator: Okay. That is time here. No, I figured we're going to move on. Sorry. We're going to move on. We're going to move on because I like this last section in particular because it's a little bit off beat. This is a section that allows us to sort of find out a little bit more about you two. And I know we've spent 45 minutes already talking about issues in this election campaign, but every election has a story. And I want to know what both of you think this election ultimately is all about.

Mayor Chow, you get a minute. Tell us.

Mayor Chow: It's ultimately about making life more affordable because it is tough out there in uncertain times. We have to have the stability and the optimism to move ahead together.

What we don't need is someone that would changes his mind. Someone that didn't take care of the kind of work that needs to be done in his ward. We have to go forward rather than going back to the old days of cuts and taking big risks.

Going forward means that we feed more kids, making life more affordable, build more housing, making transit affordable, and saving $48,000. If you are getting a two-bedroom home, that is important because that absolutely will make life affordable.

And on top of it, because times are tough. The kind of work that we must do coming together and being able to say, let us work with other levels of government, we have to do the Team Canada approach, and I believe that because of my leadership, that both levels of government have invested heavily, billions of dollars in the city of Toronto. So that's why we have 55 new subway cars.

Moderator: Thank you.

Mayor Chow: Let's go forward.

Moderator (Steve): Bradford, could I get you to say ask? Thanks.

Brad Bradford: Friends. Ultimately.

Moderator (Steve): What is this election about?

Brad Bradford: You know, I think Mayor Chow fondly remembers the city from 40 years ago when she was first elected. But that is not the experience. From 1985, average Torontonians and how they experience it today. Right now, they experience a city that is in fact less affordable because the tax bill has gone up 20%. They experience a city where you are whacked with a double land transfer tax, the only one in the entire country here in Toronto that costs, you know, people buying the average home $18,000 at a time when they're trying to close, they experience a city that feels less safe on transit and a transit experience that's less reliable. And if you're unfortunate enough to be stuck in a car, your commute has never been worse.

Now, the good news is, every challenge that Toronto is facing today has been solved somewhere else. We just have to have the courage to try new things, to do it differently. And so, Steve, your question was, what is this election about? Well, you have an incumbent here who thinks the city has reached its full potential, is very comfortable with the status quo because the status quo works for her. But it doesn't work for the folks at home. So this is about change. And if we change, if we want to change the city, we have to change the mayor to build a beautiful and formidable.

Moderator (Steve): Toronto time. Thank you, Councillor Bradford.

Moderator (Steve): Second question here, Brad Bradford, you get the first kick at this, which former mayor of Toronto is your favourite?

Brad Bradford: You know what I would say? I think that each mayor brings something different. We have often had a mayor for the moment, you know, like Mel Lastman, Mega City, Mel, big personality. At a time when Toronto was experiencing some growing pains. And I think people really liked that he was a mayor that showed up. He was a mayor who was really hands on. Maybe sometimes, you know, in a pretty big and boisterous way. But people like that. And when I'm canvassing up in North York, people talk fondly about Mel Lastman all the time.

I can't go into a Toronto community housing building without hearing stories about how Mayor Ford showed up. He was a mayor who showed up. You know, if there were issues in buildings, Mayor Ford got that resolved. And, you know, I still hear stories about how he was very effective and cared deeply about people in Toronto, community housing.

And Mayor Tory, I mean, what a hand that he got held, like trying to deal with a global pandemic. You know, when the whole world was upside down, his strength and his stability in leadership, shepherding what felt like a bigger job than just the city. But in fact, leadership for the entire country, in a world where we had so much uncertainty, I was really proud to serve alongside him. I was really grateful that he was in that role.

Moderator (Steve): Thank you, Councillor Bradford. Okay, let's go on to the third one here. And for these last ones, that time's got to be divided by two to make sure we get. Oh forgive me, forgive me. Yes, you've got to do yours.

Olivia Chow: I'm sorry.

Olivia Chow: I think you said one mayor. I will take. That was three. But I will take David Miller because he firmly believe in protecting public.

Brad Bradford: Service.

Olivia Chow: He was able to stop jets wrecking our waterfront. And I will continue that battle. Right. Unlike my friend here, he protected the waterfront, and he brought in Transit City. And Transit City is about getting these transit lines. Yes, Edmonton Crosstown took a long time. But, you know, at least it's there. It's getting better. We didn't build it. It was the province was Metrolinx. However, those two transit line is important. And the Scarborough East LRT is important. It is part and parcel of the Transit City.

One thing he recently warned us is this we must keep control of our water. If we don't do that, if we give it away to Doug Ford, which is what was being proposed, what is being proposed, and that is the. Most important thing that we need to protect our clean drinking water, because the minute you give it away, it.

Brad Bradford: Will get privatized. I need to respond to that. Thank you, thank you. If I may.

Moderator (Steve): That's time.

Moderator (Steve): That's time, everybody. That's time. We've been through this. We know we've been through this one already. We understand a minute 20 divided by two of you this time here. Name one thing in politics that you wish, in hindsight, you had not done. Olivia Chow, your first one thing you did in politics that in hindsight, you wish you had not done.

Olivia Chow: Well, how much time do I have?

Moderator (Steve): 30s.

Olivia Chow: Okay, I this is something more personal because I wish I had more time working with my late husband, Jack Layton, because we did a lot of political work together, both at City Hall and the House of Commons. And I wish, because there was one thing that we really wanted to do, that he didn't live to see it, which is making the Canadian school food program universal. And it finally happened. And it is just magnificent. So I wish he was here to be able to see that every kid in every school are being fed.

Moderator (Steve): Thank you for that.

Olivia Chow: Hundred thousand.

Olivia Chow: Of them.

Moderator (Steve): Brad Bradford, Brad Bradford, one thing you did in politics, in hindsight, you wish you had not done.

Brad Bradford: I wish I had more time for my family. You know, I got a five year old and a three year old at home. My wife's in the audience tonight. The kids are with the sitter, but this is a 24 over seven job. And when you put everything into it, you put your heart into it. The work is non-stop. And of course, that comes at the expense of time at home. During those really precious and special years. And so, you know, Catherine, thanks again as a thank you every

Brad Bradford: ...day, but very good enough for all of your hard work.

Olivia Chow: And thank you.

Brad Bradford: We love that you give our kids.

Olivia Chow: Thank you.

Brad Bradford: We have.

Moderator: 10s left for these. Answer 10s, Brad Bradford first: name one characteristic of your opponents that you admire. 10s.

Brad Bradford: I think she has been a long time and relentless advocate for the 2LGBTQ to I plus community, and I'm really grateful that she's done that.

Moderator: Mayor Chow, one characteristic of your opponents that you admire.

Olivia Chow: Very tenacious and hard working.

Moderator: There we go. All right. That is our time. Everybody.

October 26th is voting day. If you didn't vote in the advance polls, please be sure to exercise your democratic right and vote.

We want a few thank yous here. Before we go to go to the folks here at Rotman, Brett, Mandi; thank you to the David Feldman Centre for Real Estate and Urban Economics. Thank you to TVO Today, live producer Hilary Clark, Mark Ford's technical crew, and our founding sponsor, the Wilson Foundation.