政府关门与财政赤字困境

We're joined on Bloomberg TV and radio by Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Senator, it's great to have you back on Bloomberg. Welcome. 我们今天在彭博电视台和电台连线的是来自肯塔基州的共和党参议员兰德·保罗。参议员，很高兴您再次做客彭博。欢迎您。

Thanks, Robert. Absolutely. 谢谢，罗伯特。当然。

I'm going to start with the government shutdown, which is, of course, driving so much of the conversation here in Washington, D.C. And you're in a unique situation. You're standing alone among Republicans in the Senate. Are you? The last debt and deficit hawk among Republicans in the upper chamber? 我想先从政府停摆开始，这当然是华盛顿特区当前对话的焦点。您目前处于一个特殊境地。您是参议院中唯一一位持此观点的共和党人吗？您是参议院中最后一位信奉财政平衡的共和党人吗？

Feels that way sometimes. Yeah. 有时感觉确实如此。是的。

You know, the way I look at the spending proposals is what amount of debt will it add up to? So the Republican plan this year, the continuing resolution led to about a $2 trillion deficit. And I look forward to see what we'll do if we do the same thing next year. It's about a $2.1 trillion deficit, so it's actually worse. Now, the Democrats are offering an alternative, but there are alternative would be $3 trillion in debt. So I think neither plan is a very good plan. 我的看法是，支出提案最终会累积多少债务？所以，共和党今年的计划，即持续决议，导致了约2万亿美元的赤字。我期待看到明年我们如果做同样的事情会怎么样。那将是约2.1万亿美元的赤字，实际上更糟。现在，民主党提出了一项替代方案，但他们的方案将导致3万亿美元的债务。所以，我认为这两个方案都不是好方案。

And so I've offered an alternative called the Penny Plan budget, which would take an across the board cut and balance the budget over about a five year period. It would still add some debt, but in the first year it would probably be half of what they're looking at now. 因此，我提出了一项名为“便士计划”预算的替代方案，该方案将进行全面削减，并在大约五年内实现预算平衡。它仍然会增加一些债务，但第一年的增量可能只有他们目前计划的一半。

I saw the penny plan that you posted on Twitter. What happens when you walk in the cloakroom and talk to your Republican colleagues? And Senator, what did they tell you when you tried to make your case? 我看到了您在推特上发布的“便士计划”。当您走进议事厅与您的共和党同事交谈时，会发生什么？参议员，当您试图阐述您的观点时，他们告诉您什么？

Well, I think they know where I'm coming from. When we had the vote two weeks ago, 36 Republicans voted with me. So it's not like it's a minority. Over half of my caucus voted with me. Now, there's still 16 big government Republicans who don't want to cut any spending. And typically they work with the big government Democrats. And it is a bipartisan spending problem that we have here. But most of them, I think, wish that they could be better and stronger. But I think a lot of them think, well, I can't stake out this position, but when I get home, I get I get nothing but encouragement. People at home are like, thank you for standing your ground. Thank you for standing up and for what you said you were running on, which was balancing the budget. Yeah. 嗯，我认为他们知道我的立场。两周前我们进行投票时，有36名共和党人与我一起投票。所以，这不算是少数。我党团的大多数人都与我一起投票。现在，仍有16名“大政府”共和党人不愿意削减任何开支。通常，他们会与“大政府”的民主党人合作。这确实是我们面临的两党共同的支出问题。但大多数人，我认为，他们希望自己能做得更好、更坚定。但我认为很多人会想，好吧，我不能坚持这个立场，但当我回到家时，我得到的只有鼓励。在家乡的人们会说，谢谢您坚持立场。谢谢您站出来，坚持您竞选时所说的——平衡预算。是的。

医疗保健问题与关税影响

Are people at home talking to you about health care as well? The extent to which there's concern about Obamacare subsidies expiring at the end of the year. This is the talk and the president says that he's in discussions with Democrats about this. Is that the off ramp? 在家乡的人们也和您谈论医疗保健问题吗？人们对“奥巴马医改”补贴年底到期有多担心？这是大家谈论的焦点，总统也表示他正在与民主党人就此进行讨论。这是解决问题的途径吗？

Most of our conversations at home have been with people affected by tariffs. So the number one issue I get wherever I go in the state is tariffs are killing the family, farm tariffs are killing the bourbon industry. Tariff is killing the the cargo transport industry. So there's all kinds of talk, but mostly tariffs on the idea of health care. I hear mostly from small businesses that are not in the Obamacare exchange but feel like they don't have the leverage to get a good price. So what I've been offering for years for people who are worried about the price of health care is I'd like to let people buy it through an entity like Costco, which has 44 million members. I'd like to make it legal for you. Just go Costco. And then somebody from Costco would negotiate for 44 million members and have the leverage to drive prices down. 我们在家乡的谈话，大部分是关于受关税影响的人们。所以，无论我到州的哪个地方，排在首位的问题是关税正在扼杀家庭农场，关税正在扼杀波旁酒产业。关税正在扼杀货运业。所以，各种各样的讨论都有，但主要是关于关税，而不是医疗保健。我主要听到的是来自小型企业的声音，他们不在“奥巴马医改”的交换平台内，但感觉自己没有议价能力获得好价格。因此，多年来，我一直在为担心医疗保健价格的人们提供一个方案：我希望允许人们通过像好市多（Costco）这样的实体购买医疗保险，它有4400万会员。我想让您合法地去好市多。然后好市多会为4400万会员进行谈判，从而拥有降低价格的议价能力。

It's that individual market of small business-men and women who have trouble with health insurance. Then there's a whole government subsidy part. But the reason you can't just give everybody money too, is we don't have the money to give to them. We have to borrow it from China. That leads to inflation and poor people think they're getting something free on one hand or the other hands in their pocket steal on their paycheck with inflation. 这是指那些在健康保险方面遇到困难的小企业主和女性的个人市场。然后还有整个政府补贴部分。但你不能随意给每个人钱的原因是，我们没有钱给他们。我们必须从中国借钱。这会导致通货膨胀，穷人一方面觉得得到了免费的东西，另一方面又在他们的钱包里，在他们的工资单上，被通货膨胀偷走了。

医改补贴与“停摆”争议

Well, of course, you know, that's what Chuck Schumer is calling for. And Democrats, they want to have a negotiation over these subsidies. When you hear Schumer shut down and it's almost a drinking game around here at this point, Senator, we hear that every day from Republicans who join us. Is that a disingenuous line when it comes to describing the situation? Is it more complicated than that or actually how you see it from the other side of the aisle? 当然，您知道，这就是查克·舒默的呼吁。民主党人希望就这些补贴进行谈判。当您听到舒默说“停摆”时，参议员，我们每天都会听到加入我们的共和党人这样说，这在这里几乎成了一种“饮酒游戏”。这在描述情况时是否是一种虚伪的说法？情况比这复杂得多，还是您从对方的角度确实是这么看的？

I would say a lot of people are at fault for devolving this debate down to maybe a third grade level and not really thinking it through the vote. Is it on shutting government down or keeping government open? The vote is on what level of spending can you tolerate? What level of debt can you tolerate? And I think that could be valid reasons. Now, the reason why I think the Democrats are less valid at this point are because 48 of them voted or 47 of them voted in December of last year for the identical bill. So we're still living under the Biden spending levels. That's why I'm opposed to it. I voted against the Biden spending levels when they came from Democrats and when they're coming from Republicans. But these Democrats voted for the identical bill in December of 24. They're faced with the exact same vote now, and they've changed. Why? Because they've moved the goalposts. This whole idea of Obamacare subsidies has never been a part of the continuing resolution debate. It's something the Democrats put forward is expiring because the Democrats allowed it to expire in their own legislation. So there's a bit of disingenuousness on their part. 我会说，很多人应该为将这场辩论降级到三年级水平而负责，而不是真正地思考投票。投票是为了让政府关门还是维持开放？投票是为了你能容忍的支出水平？你能容忍的债务水平？我认为这些理由是有效的。现在，我认为民主党人目前理由不那么充分的原因是，去年12月，他们中有48人或47人投票支持了完全相同的法案。所以，我们仍然生活在拜登政府的支出水平之下。这就是我反对的原因。我曾反对拜登的支出水平，无论是来自民主党人还是共和党人。但这些民主党人在去年12月24日投票支持了完全相同的法案。他们现在面临着完全相同的投票，并且他们改变了主意。为什么？因为他们移动了目标。关于“奥巴马医改”补贴的整个想法从未成为持续决议辩论的一部分。这是民主党人提出的，他们允许其在自己的立法中过期，所以现在它即将到期。因此，他们方面存在一些虚伪之处。

Well, it is interesting as well. You didn't mention AOC, which usually comes with the talking points on this. And it is rich irony, Senator, that Republicans are now urging Democrats to vote on this bill that they once found toxic. And I guess this is why a lot of people have trouble understanding Washington here. What's your gut? Just before we move on, I'd like to ask you about a couple of other things. Does the government set a new record for shutdowns here? Is the president applying pressure on? 嗯，这确实很有趣。您没有提到 AOC，她通常会就此发表看法。参议员，讽刺的是，共和党人现在正敦促民主党人投票通过一项他们曾经认为是有毒的法案。我想这就是为什么很多人难以理解华盛顿的原因。您的直觉是什么？在我们继续之前，我想问您另外几件事。政府在这里是否创下了新的停摆记录？总统是否施加了压力？

You know, I think it last a few more days. The Democrats are have to put on a show for their left wing. So the socialist wing of the party is hitting on that, saying they don't stand up for, you know, government subsidies for government welfare strong enough. So I think there's a rally this weekend in Washington. The rumor is the Democrats have to put on a show to the rally once they've made it to the rally and the left wing doesn't come after their and eat their own, then they'll capitulate, say that they want a deal and they'll open the government. 您知道，我认为这还会持续几天。民主党人必须为他们的左翼“表演”。所以，党内的社会主义派系正在对此表示不满，说他们不够支持政府福利补贴。所以，我认为本周末华盛顿将举行一次集会。传言是，民主党人必须在集会上“做戏”，一旦他们来到集会现场，如果左翼不找他们的麻烦，不“内斗”，他们就会屈服，表示想要达成协议，然后就会开放政府。

You're still a know, though, right? Yeah, I'm a no because I've been a know against the spending levels. But I'm I know for a different reasons, not for partisan reasons, not for anything to do with the Obamacare subsidies. And I know because both the Republican and Democrat plan offer too much debt. 但您仍然是反对的，对吧？是的，我是反对的，因为我一直反对支出水平。但我的反对是出于不同的原因，不是出于党派原因，也不是出于任何与“奥巴马医改”补贴有关的原因。我反对是因为共和党和民主党的计划都提供了过多的债务。

质疑军事打击毒贩船只合法性

I want to ask you about what's going on in the Caribbean. Senator Rand Paul and specifically when it comes to Venezuela, and you've been outspoken about this, you commented around fears of extrajudicial killings following the first vote we've now had for your concern about the president's actions here. Is he looking for regime change in Venezuela? 我想问您关于加勒比地区发生的事情。参议员兰德·保罗，特别是关于委内瑞拉，您对此一直直言不讳，您曾就第一次投票后对法外处决的担忧发表评论，现在我们又对总统在此的行动表示担忧。他是在寻求委内瑞拉的政权更迭吗？

You know, I don't know. But we did discover today the Coast Guard, when they interdict boats, it's a common thing off the coast of Miami. In California, about 25% of the time, the boat that they board doesn't have drugs on it. So they have made an error, but they don't kill them. But we've blown up four boats now. And if the percentages hold true, did one of those four boats not have drug dealers on it if they all had drug dealers on it? You know, the first 11 they killed, what were their names? What was the evidence linking them to being part of a gang? So I think there's a lot of unknowns here. And I don't think you can have a universal Coast Guard policy of just blowing out boats before they're interdicted. There's, you know, decades long history of how we board boats. We say, haul, stop, we will board your boat. If they don't halt and stop, there's an escalation of use of force, but we don't just blow ships up. So there is a real problem. And yes, I think it might lead to regime change. And some of the more skeptical among us think that maybe this is a provocation to lead to a real regime change, a provocation to get the Venezuelans to react so we can then insert the military. I hope that's not true. 您知道，我不知道。但我们今天了解到，海岸警卫队在拦截船只时，在迈阿密海岸附近这是很常见的。在加利福尼亚，大约有25%的情况下，他们登上的船上没有毒品。所以他们犯了错误，但他们不会杀死船上的人。但我们现在已经炸毁了四艘船。如果按这个比例计算，这四艘船中是否有一艘上面没有毒贩？您知道，他们杀死的头11个人，他们的名字是什么？有什么证据将他们与贩毒集团联系起来？所以我认为这里有很多未知数。我不认为海岸警卫队可以制定一个普遍的政策，在拦截船只之前就将其炸毁。您知道，我们有几十年的登船历史。我们说“停船”，我们将登船。如果他们不停船，就会逐步升级武力，但我们不会随便炸毁船只。所以，这是一个真正的问题。是的，我认为这可能导致政权更迭。我们中一些更持怀疑态度的人认为，这可能是一种挑衅，目的是导致真正的政权更迭，一种激怒委内瑞拉人的挑衅，以便我们随后介入军队。我希望那不是真的。

支持《战争权力法》与反对政府干预经济

Well, I know I know you're very familiar with these rules as chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee. And there's been a question more recently about whether there's a congressional answer to this. Would you support a War Powers Act with eyes on Venezuela? 我知道，作为参议院国土安全委员会主席，您非常熟悉这些规则。最近有一个问题是，国会是否有应对之策。您是否会支持一项针对委内瑞拉的《战争权力法》？

Yes, I will co-sponsor the War Powers Act later this week, and we will be discussing this on the floor. I think it's one of the most important debates we have. And the idea that you can kill someone who you don't know their name and has had no process at all, people say, oh, you're going to give due process to fentanyl killers and all of this. Even in our country, 20,000 people commit murders. And as angry as we are, if it were my family, I would want to shoot them. But we still have trials because occasionally the accused is found innocent and not guilty. Occasionally we make mistakes. But we can't have a policy where we just blow up ships where we don't even know the people's names. It can't be the policy for drug interdiction, either in the country or outside the country. So I will support a war resolution to say the government shouldn't be doing this. 是的，我将在本周晚些时候联合提出《战争权力法》，我们将在会上对此进行讨论。我认为这是我们最重要的辩论之一。一个人在不知道对方姓名且没有任何正当程序的情况下就可以被杀害，人们会说：“哦，您这是要给芬太尼杀手和其他人提供正当程序”。即使在我们国家，每年也有2万人犯下谋杀罪。无论我们多么愤怒，如果发生在我家人身上，我也会想杀了他们。但我们仍然需要审判，因为偶尔会被告会被判无罪。我们偶尔也会犯错。但我们不能实行一种炸毁船只而甚至不知道船上人员姓名的政策。无论是在国内还是国外，这都不能成为毒品拦截的政策。因此，我将支持一项战争决议，表明政府不应该这样做。

Well, that's really it. That's news, Senator, and really interesting that you're going to put your name on this. Do you have other Republicans who will support that legislation? There will be people quietly who will say it's the right thing to do and will respect me for doing the right thing. I think most will be afraid of the response from the White House. The president just announced a stake in trilogy medals. Now, this is the fourth company, by my count, with a true government equity stake. There's also the golden share when it comes to U.S. Steel. Is there any position in which you would support these moves as MP materials, for instance, an exemption in the name of national security, or are we going down the wrong road here? You've called this a step towards socialism. Now that we have more companies, are we ever closer? 好吧，这确实是个新闻，参议员，您要签署这项法案确实很有意思。您是否知道还有其他共和党人会支持这项立法吗？会有人私下里说这是正确的做法，并尊重我做正确的事。但我认为大多数人会害怕白宫的反应。总统刚刚宣布了对三金属公司（Trilogy Metals）的股权投资。现在，据我统计，这是第四家政府真正拥有股权的公司。还有美国钢铁公司的“黄金股”。在国家安全的名义下，您是否会支持这些举措，例如给予MP Materials豁免，或者我们正在走错误的道路？您称此为走向“社会主义”的一步。现在有了更多的公司，我们是否越来越近了？

You know, I wrote a book called The Case Against Socialism, and so I'm not for government ownership of the means of production, but I'm also not for the government owning 10% of the means of production. There are all various forms and degrees of socialism. I do think that the law also the statute that gave money to these companies, I was against it because I'm against subsidies, particularly when we have to borrow them. But the law didn't indicate any power or transfer any power to the president to say instead of a grant, we're going to give you we're going to have stock in your company, and that's the only way you get it. Those conditions weren't contemplated in the law. So I suspect eventually this will go to court. I've been surprised how quickly the companies have acquiesced in it, but I guess it is free money from their perspective. And when you get free money, it's hard to turn away from that. But no, I don't like it. I don't like the government sort of saying to Nvidia, Hey, Hey, guys. Yeah, you can sell in China this year, but we want 15%. You know, we want one 15%. There is no legal authority to do things like that. And, you know, my problem is imagine what this would be like if you had bond da me as president or AOC as president. There's my talking point. It came back in. If AOC were president, can you imagine what what would it mean for her to own the companies? What if she owned 10% of Exxon? What if she owned 10% of the oil companies? Oh, my goodness. So I don't want Republicans or Democrats to own the companies. It's a terrible idea. 您知道，我写了一本名为《反对社会主义的理由》的书，所以我反对政府拥有生产资料，但我也反对政府拥有生产资料的10%。社会主义有各种各样的形式和程度。我确实认为，将资金给予这些公司的法律和法规，我曾反对，因为我反对补贴，尤其是在我们不得不借钱的情况下。但法律并未赋予总统任何权力或转移任何权力，可以说“我们不给您拨款，而是要持有您公司的股份，您只能通过这种方式获得资金”。法律并未设想这些条件。所以我怀疑最终这会诉诸法律。令我惊讶的是，公司们这么快就接受了，但我猜从他们的角度来看，这是“免费的钱”。当你得到免费的钱时，很难拒绝。但不，我不喜欢这样。我不喜欢政府对英伟达（Nvidia）说：“嘿，嘿，伙计们。是的，今年你们可以在中国销售，但我们要占15%。” 您知道，我们要占15%。没有法律依据可以这样做。您知道，我的问题是，试想一下，如果邦达·梅（Bong da me）或 AOC 当总统会怎样。我的观点来了。如果 AOC 当总统，您能想象她拥有这些公司意味着什么吗？如果她拥有埃克森美孚（Exxon）10%的股份呢？如果她拥有石油公司10%的股份呢？我的天哪。所以，我既不希望共和党人也不希望民主党人拥有这些公司。这是一个糟糕的主意。

Duly noted. When you think about what we're discussing here, though, socialism with regard to the government stakes in publicly traded companies, in the case of Intel, you've got trilogy metals. Now we can talk about tech talk and the integrity of Congress authoritarianism when it comes to extrajudicial killings of Venezuela. We've all done this in just 10 minutes, Senator. So is Donald Trump an autocrat? 已记录。但当我们谈论现在正在讨论的，即政府持有上市公司股份方面的“社会主义”时，以英特尔为例，您提到了三金属公司。现在我们可以谈论科技话题以及国会在委内瑞拉法外处决问题上的威权主义。参议员，我们所有人在短短10分钟内都做到了。那么，唐纳德·特朗普是独裁者吗？

But the interesting thing is, despite my complaints, despite my pushback, I still think he's the best president of our lifetime. Frankly, I would vote for him a million times over a socialist like Harris or a president like Biden, who is unable to really perform the functions of the job. But yeah, on so many things, he's for lower taxes, less regulation, he's more pro-business. Doesn't mean I agree with everything. But just because I have disagreements and some of the things are big disagreements doesn't mean that I actually, frankly don't think he's a great president. 但有趣的是，尽管我抱怨，尽管我反对，我仍然认为他是我们这一代人中最伟大的总统。坦率地说，我会无数次地投票给他，而不是像哈里斯那样的社会主义者，或者像拜登这样无法真正履行总统职责的总统。但是的，在许多事情上，他支持减税、减少监管，他更亲商。这并不意味着我同意他的一切。但仅仅因为我有一些分歧，其中一些分歧很大，并不意味着我实际上，坦率地说，不认为他是一位伟大的总统。

联邦雇员工资与谈话总结

You think federal workers should get backpay when this ends? They always do. And it's not a matter of will they? They they always do. And it'll be part of the deal. The Democrats will fold within a week. But part of the deal is that all the union workers that work for the federal government will get backpay and way over my time. Senator, but I appreciate the conversation and your column this evening. Rand Paul of Kentucky, thank you for the conversation on Bloomberg TV and radio. 您认为联邦雇员在政府停摆结束后应该获得补发工资吗？他们总是会得到的。这不是“是否会”的问题，而是“他们总是会”得到。这将是协议的一部分。民主党人会在一周内屈服。但协议的一部分是，所有为联邦政府工作的工会工人将获得补发工资，我已经超时很多了。参议员，但我感谢这次谈话以及您今晚的专栏。肯塔基州参议员兰德·保罗，感谢您在彭博电视和电台的谈话。