序言与国会大厦回忆
[music]: [音乐]
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**[music]**: [music]Michael Barbaro: 这里是《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·巴巴罗。这是《The Daily》。
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**Michael Barbaro**: From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bubaro. This is the Daily.>>: 你好。我们以前见过。嗨，迈克尔。
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**>>**: >> Hello. We've met before. Hi, Michael.>>: 参议员。［音乐］
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**>>**: >> Senator. [music]>>: 周四下午，我和同事们前往华盛顿特区，与即将成为参议院多数党领袖的参议院少数党领袖会面。
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**>>**: >> On Thursday afternoon, my colleagues and I traveled to Washington DC to meet with the Senate Minority Leader who is now poised to become the Senate Majority Leader.>>: 克里斯、雷切尔、阿菲。
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**>>**: >> Chris, Rachel, Affe.>>: 艾姆，很高兴见到你。是谁把这个相当复杂的设备搬进来的？
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**>>**: >> Aim, nice to meet you. who was bringing in this rather elaborate contraption.>>: 好吧，我知道《纽约时报》非常支持科技。所以，
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**>>**: >> Well, I know that the New York Times is very pro tech. So,>>: 确实。
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**>>**: >> exactly.>>: 是的。
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**>>**: >> Yeah.>>: 是的。从印刷机一路走来，我们经历了一段漫长的旅程——
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**>>**: >> Yeah. We've been quite a journey from the printing press>>: 到了今天。我与查克·舒默的对话，内容涉及他在周二民主党全面胜利中所扮演的角色、他遏制特朗普总统的计划，以及民主党重新掌权后将推进的政策议程。［音乐］今天是11月6日，星期五。［音乐］我带你们参观过这间办公室了吧？
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**>>**: >> today. my conversation with Chuck Schumer about his role in Tuesday's sweeping Democratic victories, his plans to reign in President Trump, and the policy agenda that Democrats will pursue [music] now that they're back in power. It's Friday, [music] November 6th. I've given you the tour of this office, right?>>: 是的。但是那——
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**>>**: >> Yes. But it>>: 那是林登·约翰逊唯一的诺曼·洛克威尔画像。
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**>>**: >> that's the only Norman Rockwell of Lyndon Johnson.>>: 嗯。
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**>>**: >> Um>>: 那是——我跟你讲过那个，暴徒占领参议院的时候。
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**>>**: >> that is I told you that one when the hooligans took over the Senate took over.>>: 你是指1月6日？
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**>>**: >> You mean January 6th?>>: 是的。在1月6日。
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**>>**: >> Yeah. On January 6th.>>: 描述一下你指的是什么。
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**>>**: >> Just describe what you're pointing to.>>: 这是选举人票送达时的统计表——
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**>>**: >> It's the tabulation of the electoral votes as they came>>: 认证乔·拜登胜利的文件。
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**>>**: >> the certification of Joe Biden's victory.>>: 没错。还有暴徒们。我们去了——领袖们被安置在一个秘密地点。下午5点我们聚在一起，有麦康奈尔和麦卡锡，还有佩洛西和我，大家说：“我们要回国会大厦。我们不能让这些混蛋夺走我们的民主。”警方说：“别去。那里可能还有人。”我们去了，凌晨3点完成了计票，认证了乔·拜登为总统。
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**>>**: >> Exactly. and the hooligans. We went, the leaders were put in a secret place. 5:00 we gathered and this is McConnell and McCarthy as well as Pelosi and me and said, "We're going back to the capital. We're not letting these bastards take our democracy away." The police said, "Don't go. There may be people there." We went and at 3:00 a.m. that was completed and it certified Joe Biden as president.>>: 他们从来没有进来。骚乱者从来没有闯进这间办公室。
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**>>**: >> They never made it. The the riers never made it into this office.>>: 骚乱者——
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**>>**: >> Did the writers>>: 从来没有进到这里？
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**>>**: >> never made it here?>>: 闯入你的办公室。但我的一名警察警卫可能救了我的命。他们闯入时我们走出参议院大门。我们右转。打开另一扇门，距离他们不到30英尺。其中一人说：“那个大犹太人在那儿。抓住他。”
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**>>**: >> Make it into your office. But one of my police guards may have saved my life. We walk out the Senate door when they invade. We make a right turn. We open another door and we're within 30 ft of them. And one of them said, "There's the big Jew. Let's get him.">>: 他挡住了门。我跑开了，他赶了上来，现在我们依然在这里。
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**>>**: >> And he blocked the door. I went away and he caught up and here we are still here.>>: 好的。
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**>>**: >> All right.>>: 行。
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**>>**: >> Okay.>>: 就这样。参议员，感谢你为我们抽出时间。感谢你让我们来到你的办公室。谢谢。
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**>>**: >> That's it. Well, Senator, thank you for making time for us. Thank you for letting us come into your office. Thank you.中期选举逆转与“3C”竞选策略
>>: 装上所有这些音频设备。我们非常感激。我只想先谈一个观察。18个月前——如果我算得不对你可以纠正我——民主党的处境极为暗淡。你们党可以说处于政治低谷。你们以很大差距失去了白宫，失去了参议院。民主党活动家要求撤换你，指责你在面对特朗普总统及其第二任期行使权力的方式时不够坚决好斗。今天，快进到现在，民主党以很大优势重新赢得了对参众两院的控制权。你们在参议院赢得了54个席位的多数。根据密西西比州和阿拉斯加州的结果，最终可能达到56席。而你即将再次当选民主党领袖。这真是一场过山车。
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**>>**: >> Outfit it with all this audio tech. We really appreciate it. I just want to start with an observation. 18 months ago, you can correct me on the math. The situation for Democrats was extraordinarily bleak. Your party was arguably in the political wilderness. You had lost the White House by a lot, lost the Senate. Democratic activists were calling for your head, arguing that you had been insufficiently combative in your approach to President Trump and the way he used power in the second term. Today, fast forward, Democrats have regained control of both chambers and by a lot. You have won a 54 seat majority in the Senate. It could end up being 56 depending on what happens in Mississippi and Alaska. And you are poised to be reelected. the Democratic leader. That's quite a roller coaster.>>: 是的，确实如此。
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**>>**: >> Yes, it is.>>: 我是说——
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**>>**: >> I mean,>>: 是啊。你看，你说得对。在2025年1月，刚输掉总统职位、输掉参议院之后，我说：“我们将在2026年把它夺回来”，每个人都翻白眼。现在，我们做到了。
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**>>**: >> yeah. Well, look, you're right. When in January of 2025, right after we had lost the presidency, we had lost the Senate, I said, "We're going to take it back in 2026 and everyone rolled their eyes. Now, here we are.">>: 这主要归结于两个原因。我们做的第一件事是聚焦美国人民想要的，而不是我们想要的。不是别人想要的，而是他们想要的。我们专注于他们最关心的三个问题。首当其冲的是成本（Costs），高昂的生活成本。腐败（Corruption）。这里出现了我认为历史上最腐败的政府。还有混乱（Chaos）。这里的街头混乱。战争中的混乱。
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**>>**: >> It happened really for two reasons. The first thing we did is we focused on what the American people wanted, not what we wanted. Not what someone else wanted, but what they wanted. And we focused on the three issues they cared most about. Costs above all, the high cost of living. Corruption. You had the most corrupt administration in the in I think in history. And chaos. Chaos on the streets here. Chaos at the war.>>: 你谈到了“三个C”。三个C。混乱。
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**>>**: >> Well, you talked about there's the three C's. Three C's. Chaos.>>: 是的。从一年、一年半前开始，我们就在谈这个。我们毫不动摇，众议院和参议院都是如此。我也和哈基姆一起合作——
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**>>**: >> Yes. And I I we were talking about that since a year ago, a year and a half ago. And we were relentless, the House and Senate. I worked with Hakee on this as well,>>: 杰弗里斯。
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**>>**: >> Jeff.>>: 我的北极星就是赢回参议院。这是头等大事。我们所做的一切都聚焦于成本、混乱和腐败，并将它们与普通人联系起来。我们做的第二件事非常重要，我们在偏红和摇摆州招募了候选人。从大约2006年以来的几十年里，我的目标一直是扩大选举版图。所以我们审视了人们以前从未想过我们能赢的州。当特朗普推行关税——
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**>>**: >> And my northstar was winning back the Senate. And that was number one. Everything we did was focused on cost chaos and corruption and relating it to people. The second thing we did, and really important, we recruited candidates in reddish and purple states. My goal has been for decade since about 2006 is to expand the map. And so we looked at states where we might win where people never thought we'd win before. When Trump did the tariffs>>: 影响了大豆，我们就能在爱荷华州获胜。当他在北部边境瞎搞时，我们说我们——
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**>>**: >> andffected soybeans, we can win Iowa. When he [ __ ] around with the northern border, we said we>>: 参议员，你可以把它哔掉。
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**>>**: >> You can bleep that out, Senator.>>: 好吧，如果你想哔就哔。我无所谓。嗯，你知道，我来自布鲁克林。我们看了缅因州，看了阿拉斯加州。我们可以在那里赢。当俄亥俄州在这些数据中心问题上做得过头时，我们说我们可以在那里赢。但第二点，我必须给予称赞的是——
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**>>**: >> Okay, if you want. I don't care. Um I'm from Brooklyn, you know. Um we looked at Maine and we looked at Alaska. We can win there. When Ohio went way overboard on these data centers, we said we can win there. But second, and I got to give credit here,候选人招募与关键州案例
>>: 我们招募了最优秀的候选人，而不是某个政治领袖指定想要的人。我们寻找适合本州的候选人，而且每一个人都真正受到爱国主义的驱使。每一个都是。所以当我招募了佩尔托拉、爱荷华州的特里克、俄亥俄州的谢罗德——
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**>>**: >> we recruited the best candidates, not who some political leader said we want them or this. We found candidates who were fit their state and just every one of them was actually motivated by patriotism. Every single one. So when I recruited Pelola and and Tric uh in uh Iowa, Sherid in uh Ohio>>: 俄亥俄州，北卡罗来纳州的库珀——
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**>>**: >> Ohio, Cooper in North Carolina,>>: 都是出于爱国主义。我能给你讲个关于谢罗德的简短故事吗？
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**>>**: >> it was motivated by patriotism. Can I tell you a quick story about Sherid?>>: 我飞到哥伦布市三次去见谢罗德和康妮。那是他的妻子。她是普利策奖得主，他们是一个团队。
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**>>**: >> So I flew out to Columbus three times to see Sheridan Connie. That's his wife. She's a Pulit surprise winner, but they're a team.>>: 谢罗德·布朗当时已经不在任——
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**>>**: >> Shared Brown had been out of office at>>: 他在前一个11月刚刚以大约三、四个百分点的劣势输掉了选举。想必他当时已经退休了。
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**>>**: >> He had just lost election the previous November by about three, four points. Presumably he was retired.>>: 是的，他退休了。而我就是这么对他说的。在第三次拜访时，他们还没答应，我对他们说：“谢罗德，康妮，听着，你们可以有一个美好的退休生活。你们留下了伟大的政治遗产，因为你有着极其出色的职业生涯，但如果你不参选，而你是俄亥俄州唯一能赢的人——”
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**>>**: >> Yes, he was retired. And that's just what I said to him. I said on the third visit when they hadn't said yes yet, I said to them, Sherid, Connie, look, you can have a great retirement. You've had a great legacy cuz you've had a terrific career, but if you don't run and you're the only one who can win in Ohio,>>: 你在招募他。
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**>>**: >> you were recruiting him.>>: 是的。“——而我们因一票之差失去参议院，你的退休生活就不会那么愉快了。”［笑声］我当时真的很想让他参选。
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**>>**: >> Yes. And we lose the Senate by one vote, you're not going to enjoy your retirement that much. [laughter] I was I really wanted to get him to run.>>: 你在全力做他的思想工作。
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**>>**: >> You were working him over.>>: 是的。但他是我朋友。你知道，我们是以一种——
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**>>**: >> I was. But he's my friend. And you know, we did it in a>>: 你用内疚感施压——
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**>>**: >> You guilt tripped him.>>: 我们是以一种——
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**>>**: >> We did did it in a>>: 迫使他竞选美国参议员。
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**>>**: >> into running for US Senate.>>: 以一种友好的方式。
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**>>**: >> In a friendly way.>>: 嗯。
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**>>**: >> Mhm.>>: 是的。一天后，他们打电话过来说：“我们参选。”
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**>>**: >> Yeah. A day later, they called up and said, "We're running.">>: 而且你知道，我尝试在人们未曾想到的地方招募。呃——
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**>>**: >> And you know, I tried to recruit in a places people never thought. Uh>>: 比如哪里？
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**>>**: >> like where?>>: 密西西比州的斯科特·科隆。我一直渴望在南方获胜。我们两年前在佐治亚州赢了。当时没人认为我们能做到。
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**>>**: >> Well, Scott Khalum in um Mississippi. I was always eager to win in the South. We had won in Georgia two years before. No one thought we could do that.>>: 斯科特曾被现任参议员海德-史密斯拒绝。
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**>>**: >> And Scott had been rejected by the incumbent senator Hyde Smith.>>: 他曾被提名成为密西西比州一个世纪以来的第一位非裔联邦法官。而她阻止了他。
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**>>**: >> He had been nominated to be the first Africanamean federal judge in Mississippi in a century. And she blocked him>>: 我去找他说：“你必须参选。”我甚至在他和他父亲来访时，在我布鲁克林的家里招待他们吃午餐。现在他们还没宣布他在选举中胜出，但正在计票。他领先1700票。剩余选票中很多是临时选票，通常倾向于民主党。他可能会创造历史，成为我们的第八个席位。
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**>>**: >> and I went to him and said, "You got to run." I actually had he and his father, I served him lunch in my house in Brooklyn. And you know, they haven't declared his um election at this point, but they're counting the votes. He's ahead by 1700. A lot of the remaining votes are provisional ballots, which usually go Democratic. And he may make history and be our eighth seat.>>: 你也有几次失误。如果你提到招募的话。是的——
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**>>**: >> You had a few misfires. If you're if you're bringing up recruitment, yes,>>: 你曾希望缅因州州长珍妮特·米尔斯成为——
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**>>**: >> you wanted Janet Mills, the governor of Maine, to be>>: 候选人。缅因州的民主党初选选民并不希望这样。密歇根州的黑莉·史蒂文斯也是一样。
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**>>**: >> the nominee. The Democratic primary voters in Maine did not want that. Same with Haley Stevens in>>: 密歇根州。
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**>>**: >> Michigan.>>: 是的。
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**>>**: >> Yeah.>>: 在总体盘算中，你对自己的招募感到满意，还是有一些遗憾？
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**>>**: >> I mean, in the overall math, do you feel good about your recruitment or do you have some regrets?>>: 听着，不，我觉得非常——
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**>>**: >> And look, no, I feel very>>: 即使对黑莉·史蒂文斯，你现在也不后悔？
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**>>**: >> You don't even regret Haley Stevens now?>>: 不。底线是——
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**>>**: >> No. The bottom line is>>: 在她转而支持迈克·罗杰斯之后。
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**>>**: >> after she turned and endorsed Mike Rogers.>>: 听着，我们从一开始就知道必须赢得密歇根州，而密歇根州讨厌特朗普，尤其是因为关税以及与加拿大的关系等等。黑莉·史蒂文斯输给阿卜杜勒后，我们投入了6000万美元帮助阿卜杜勒。他对此非常感激。我们必须赢得密歇根州。我的北极星就是赢得参议院。
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**>>**: >> Look, we knew from the beginning we had to win Michigan and Michigan hates Trump because of the tariffs and with Canada in particular, etc. And once Haley Stevens lost to Abdul, we put $60 million in to help Abdul. And he's very he's very appreciative of that. We had to win Michigan. And my northstar is winning the Senate.选举定性：公投效应还是民主党自身吸引力？
>>: 好。让我把视野稍微放宽一点。
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**>>**: >> Okay. Let me zoom out just a little bit.>>: 好。
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**>>**: >> Okay.>>: 我很感谢你谈到招募中非常亲力亲为的方式、“三个C”以及该策略。我想谈谈周二刚刚发生的事情，你认为实际的候选人有多大重要性，以及我们应在多大程度上将此视为对民主党的肯定。因为我看到的每一份关于这次中期选举的分析都得出结论：这是对特朗普、他的政党、关税、驱逐出境以及伊朗战争的全民公投。坦白讲，在临近这次选举的几周里，民主党深受欢迎程度极低。我们的民调显示只有28%的选民对该党感到满意。我的同事这样形容：唯一比总统特朗普更不受欢迎的，就是民主党人。所以，是你们赢得了这次选举，还是他输掉了它，而你们只是一个接收器，你招募的所有这些候选人都只是选民怒火的接收器？
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**>>**: >> I appreciate you talking about your very hands-on approach to recruitment, the three C's, that strategy. I want to talk about what just happened on Tuesday and how much you think the actual candidates mattered and how much of an affirmation we should think of this as for Democrats because every analysis I've seen of this midterm election concludes it was a referendum on Trump, his party, on tariffs, on deportations, on the war in Iran. And let's just be really honest. The Democratic Party in the weeks leading up to this election deeply unpopular. Our polling showed only 28% of voters were satisfied with the party. My colleague put it this way. The only people less popular than President Trump are Democrats. So, did you win this election or did he lose it and you were just a receptacle and all these candidates you recruited were a receptacle for the fury?>>: 两者兼有。但对我来说惊人的是：尽管特朗普表现如此糟糕，而且他所做的一切要么与美国人民最关心的成本问题无关，要么让情况更糟——他在医保方面的举措、他在能源方面的举措、他在关税上的举措——
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**>>**: >> It's a combination. But here's the amazing thing to me. as bad as Trump was and almost everything he did was either irrelevant to the American people's main concern costs or made it worse what he did with healthcare, what he did with energy, what he did with Paris is>>: 令人惊讶的事情在于——这与你说的有一点微小的区别——那就是参议院共和党人全然支持他。
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**>>**: >> and here's the amazing thing and it's a little bit of a a slight difference in what you said. It's that the Senate Republicans embraced him>>: 顺便说一句，在具体议题上，当人们问：你喜欢民主党人吗？答案是不喜欢。但谁在成本问题上为你们做得更多？民主党人。谁在打击腐败上为你们做得更多？民主党人。因此，我们确实制造了区分。即使那次因医保问题引发的政府停摆——你知道我们本不想这么做——也表明了谁在医保上支持他们，谁不支持。所以对我来说，不可思议的是参议院共和党人，他们是很精明的人，却跟着特朗普跳下了悬崖。我一直认为他们阻止我们的方式是与特朗普切割。但他们没有。直到最后，其中一些人——
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**>>**: >> and on the issues by the way they said do you like the Democrats? No. Who's doing more for you on costs? Democrats. Who's doing more for you on going after corruption? Democrats. So, we did create a division. Even that shutdown, which you know, we didn't want to do on healthcare, showed who was for them on healthcare and who wasn't. So, the amazing thing to me is the Senate Republicans who are savvy people. They just follow Trump over the cliff. And I always thought the way they can deter us is break from Trump. And they didn't. not until the very end some of the>>: 所以毫无疑问，特朗普，对特朗普的不满起到了作用。这是三者的结合。如果我们派出糟糕的候选人，我认为我们不会赢；如果我们没有聚焦于这些议题，我认为我们不会赢；如果特朗普没有表现得这么差，我认为我们也不会赢。需要这三个要素结合在一起。
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**>>**: >> so it's certainly Trump the upsetness with Trump helped it's it's a combination of the three if we would have had lousy candidates I don't think we would have won if we wouldn't have focused on the issues I don't think we would have won and if Trump wasn't so bad I don't think we would have won you needed all three to come together反思过往政策重心与民主党品牌
>>: 你认为民主党的品牌为什么会变成这样？我之所以问这个问题，显然是因为你接下来的重要职责之一就是修复并扭转这种负面认知。赢得中期选举显然是重要的第一步。但为什么你认为民主党的品牌形象会如此糟糕？让我列举几种可能性。在拜登总统、卡玛拉·哈里斯以及你的领导下，民主党在边境、非法移民问题上的做法越来越不受欢迎，还有你们在社会议题、跨性别权利、多元平等包容（DEI）等方面采取的做法，这些都是拜登政府的重点优先事项。回过头来看这一切，作为起点，你是否希望当时采取不同的做法？你是否承认该党确实犯了错误？
英文原文
**>>**: >> why do you think the Democratic brand is what it is I'm asking this because obviously a big part of your job coming up is to fix that and to turn it around the perception obviously winning the midterm is a an important first step But why do you think the Democratic party's brand is as bad as it is? And let me offer you a few possibilities. I mean, you have under President Biden, under Kla Harris, under you growing unpopularity of Democrats approach to the border, to illegal immigration, to the approach you all took on social issues, trans rights, DEI, so on, which was a big priority under the Biden administration. So when you look back at all of that, just as a starting point, do you wish you all had done things differently? Do you do you accept that the party really aired?>>: 我会把重点放在——我会试着回答这些话：未来该怎么做？
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**>>**: >> I would hang my I would try to address the words, what about moving forward?>>: 因为我们当时做得不对，但今年——
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**>>**: >> Well, because we didn't do it right, but this year it's>>: 这点很重要。“我们当时做得不对。”
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**>>**: >> that's important. We didn't do it right.>>: 对。但今年我们做得正确得多。你听不到同样的那些声音了。我不能——这“三个C”非常不同。混乱和腐败与人们的需求截然不同——
英文原文
**>>**: >> Right. But this year we've done it much writer. You don't hear the same thing. I don't I can't The three C's are very different. chaos and corruption are very different what people want>>: 相比于非法移民非罪化和谈论——
英文原文
**>>**: >> than decriminalizing the illegal immigration and talking about>>: 而且你看，他们今年用的招数——他们无法拿“削减警费”做文章，因为我不认为这次有任何一位我们的候选人提过那点。但是——
英文原文
**>>**: >> and look they what they use this year they they couldn't use defunding the police cuz I don't think any of our candidates said that this time but>>: 他们确实尝试的一件事，因为他们总能从帽子里掏出可怕的东西，那就是跨性别……
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**>>**: >> the one thing they did try cuz they're always pulling their horrible things out of their hat whose was trans um>>: 你指的“他们”是共和党人。
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**>>**: >> you're talking about they being Republicans.>>: 是的，是的，是的。跨性别手术，而我们的候选人每个人都以自己的方式进行了反驳，这一招没有奏效。我——
英文原文
**>>**: >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. trans operations and our candidates rebutted it in in each in his his own way and it didn't hold. I>>: 我认为这很重要。你的意思是，在民主党声誉下滑之前，存在侧重点以及在某种程度上的政策错误，而你试图在这个周期改变这一点。
英文原文
**>>**: >> I I think this is important. You're saying there there was an error and emphasis and to some degree in policy that preceded this decline in the Democratic Party's reputation and you sought to change that in this cycle.>>: 最重要的是，我们不能在他们的场地上较量，而要让他们在我们的场地上较量。
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**>>**: >> What we had to do above all is not play on their field but let them play on our field.>>: 我的意思是，可以说是他们在你们的场地上较量。也许他们夸大了它，但他们是在民主党建立的场地上较量。
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**>>**: >> I mean, arguably they were playing on your field. Maybe they were exaggerating it, but they were playing with the field that Democrats had created.>>: 不，但我在这里要说的是，我们不应该把时间花在回应他们以及所有那些事情上。我们应该把大部分时间花在人们真正想要的东西上。这就是我们这两年所做的。这可能与23年、24年有所不同。
英文原文
**>>**: >> No, but what I'm saying here is we shouldn't spend our time responding to them and and all of that. We should spend most of our time on what people want. And that's what we did in these two years. That was probably different than in 23 24.>>: 嗯。
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**>>**: >> Mhm.党内共识与当选候选人的多样性
>>: 好吧。你知道，现在的政治气候大不相同了。是的。所以，我认为这让我们回到你在这次选举中采取的策略以及你挑选的候选人。让我们总体谈谈你招募并且最终获胜的候选人，你怎么看待他们以及他们的成功，这是否完全取决于他们自身。你如何描述这些获胜的候选人？因为从意识形态上讲，他们并不完全相同，但他们有一些共同点。
英文原文
**>>**: >> Okay. You know, the political climate was much different now. Yes. So, I think that brings us back to the strategy you adopted in this election and the candidates you picked. Let's talk about broadly the candidates you both recruited and then ultimately won and how you think about them and and their success and whether it was about them. How do you describe these candidates who won? Because they're ideologically speaking, they're not all the same, but they have some commonalities.>>: 没错。你一针见血。是的，你很擅长这个。
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**>>**: >> Exactly. you you're you're very you the nail on the head. Yeah, you're good at this.>>: 优势在于每位候选人都谈到了成本、混乱和腐败，但每位候选人都是以自己的方式表达。你在缅因州的谈论方式不会与在堪萨斯州一样。但实际发生的是，这三件事作为一个广泛的主题从国家的一端引起了另一端的共鸣，并且在某种程度上相互放大了。
英文原文
**>>**: >> The advantage was each candidate spoke to cost chaos and corruption, but each candidate spoke in their own way. So you don't talk about it the same way in Maine as you do in Kansas. But what did happen is there was a broad theme of these three things resonating from one end of the country to the other and it sort of magnified uh each other.>>: 给我举个例子说明你所指的内容。
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**>>**: >> Give me an example of what you're talking about.>>: 好吧，看密歇根州，他们因为汽车而讨厌关税。
英文原文
**>>**: >> Well, okay, you look in Michigan, they hated the tariffs because of automobiles.>>: 在堪萨斯州，他们因为大豆受到的冲击而讨厌关税。不同的州采取了不同的做法。我们并没有搞一刀切，但这三个议题确实引起了共鸣。当我面试我们的候选人时，他们全都支持这些主张。
英文原文
**>>**: >> In Kansas, they hated the tariffs because of what it did to soybeans. And different states took different approaches. We didn't say there was one size that fits all, but the three issues just resonated. And our candidates when I interviewed them were all for these things.>>: 你的意思是在政策和策略上，民主党内部现在存在真正的共识？
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**>>**: >> Is what you're saying that there is a real consensus among Democrats right now about policy and strategy? If>>: 我们的策略很简单，这项工作才刚刚开始。如果我们不能落实成果，我们就会完蛋。
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**>>**: >> our strategy is simple, this job is just begun. If we don't deliver, we're going to be screwed.>>: 但你指的是风格和信息上的共同点，还是实际上的共同点——
英文原文
**>>**: >> But are you talking about a commonality in style and message or an actual commonality in>>: 这实际上是为人们把事情办成，兑现我们的承诺。如果我们能够交付成果，哪怕不是全部，哪怕只是部分成果，都会带来巨大的改变。而且我们能够——你知道，我的目标是扩大版图，因为我想要一个持久的多数席位。
英文原文
**>>**: >> it's it's really getting things done for people, fulfilling our promises. And if we can deliver, not on everything, but on some things, it's going to make a huge difference. And we can, you know, my goal is to expand the map because I want a durable majority.>>: 我们会谈到具体政策，但我只想把这点理清楚。例如，有詹姆斯·塔拉里科，还有阿卜杜勒·赛义德。人们觉得这两个人差异很大。你是说在成本、混乱和腐败问题上，他们其实没有多大差别？他们非常一致——
英文原文
**>>**: >> We're gonna get to the policy, but I just want to be clear on this. There, for example, there's a Tal Rico and then there's a Abdul Alsad. People perceive those two as being pretty different. Are you saying actually they're not very different when it comes to cost chaos and corruption? They're quite the same>>: 在其他方面他们可能有分歧，但在核心问题上是一致的。
英文原文
**>>**: >> and elsewhere they may have differences, but on the core.>>: 是的。你看，我当时正在做《早安乔》节目——允许我提及竞争对手吗？
英文原文
**>>**: >> Yeah. Look, I I was doing the um morning joke. Am I allowed to mention a competitor?>>: 当然可以。
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**>>**: >> Of course you are.>>: 谢谢。我在《早安乔》节目的候播室里，排在我前面的正好是两位刚获胜的民主党人。新泽西州的进步派科里·布克，以及堪萨斯州的温和派汉密尔顿。当你听到他们坐在彼此旁边回答问题时，在面对成本、混乱和腐败时，他们的回答极其相似。党内不同派别在这些问题上并没有那么大的分歧。我们应该把时间花在互相协作上，而不是自相残杀。这是击败特朗普、击败共和党人并扩大我们多数优势的方法。［音乐］我们马上回来。［音乐］
英文原文
**>>**: >> Thank you. I was on the morning Joe show in the waiting room and right before me were two Democrats who had just won. Cory Booker, progressive New Jersey and Hamilton, a uh moderate from Kansas. And when you heard them answer the questions sitting next to each other, they were remarkably similar answers when it came to cause chaos and corruption. There's not that great a divide on that wing in the party. And we ought to spend our time working with each other, not shooting at each other. That's the way to beat Trump, beat the Republicans, and expand our majority. [music] We'll [music] be right back.多数党领袖地位与领导层代际交接
>>: 让我们回到当下时刻。参议院民主党多数席位已经形成。它需要一位领袖。它必须对如何在国会运用权力做出许多决定。让我非常简单地问你：你预计在参议院多数党领袖的选举中会面临任何挑战吗？
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**>>**: >> Let's bring ourselves to the present moment. Democratic Senate majority now exists. It needs a leader. Has to make a lot of decisions about how to use its power in Congress. And let me put this very simply to you. Do you expect to face any kind of challenge in the election for Senate Majority Leader?>>: 不会。
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**>>**: >> No.>>: 不会？
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**>>**: >> You do not?>>: 不会，我的意思是，听着，我们的党团现在专注于向前推进。大家对过去两年我们团结一致所做的一切感到非常高兴，但正如我之前所说，重点必须落实到成果上，我将对我的党团、对国家、对所有人一次又一次地强调这一点。如果我们不兑现承诺，这一切都将化为乌有。这只是第一步。但我认为我们团结一致来实现这一点。
英文原文
**>>**: >> No, I I mean, look, our caucus is focused on now moving forward. Everyone's very happy with what we all did unified in the last two years, but the focus has to be, as I said before, and I'll say it again and again, to my caucus, to the country, and to everybody. If we don't deliver, all this will go away. This is just the first step. But I think we're united together to do that.>>: 你认为没有人出来同你竞争是一件好事吗？让我把这件事放进具体背景来看。我报道你很长时间了。你在国会、在参议院已经27年了。我怀着充分的尊重提出这个问题：你已经75岁了，马上就要76岁了。
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**>>**: >> Do you think it's good that there's no one running against you? And let me just let me just put this in perspective. I've covered you for a long time. You have been in the Congress in the Senate for 27 years. I say this with lots of respect. You're 75 years old. You're about to be 76.>>: 比那稍微年轻一点。
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**>>**: >> A little younger than that.>>: 本月晚些时候，提前祝你生日快乐。你觉得自己有怎样的责任为党内更年轻的领袖让路？
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**>>**: >> Later in the month, happy almost birthday. What responsibility do you feel to make way for younger leaders in the party?>>: 当我说我是领袖时，我更像是一个指挥家。我们确保大家演奏同一首曲调。但乐团里有才华横溢的双簧管手，他们应该在自己的领域大放异彩；有才华横溢的鼓手，他们也应该被展现出来。所以，你必须努力把它融合成一首乐曲，同时让每个人都展现光芒，因为这些人的优秀让我非常佩服——甚至可以说是佩服得五体投地。现在我们必须确保他们的才能得到富有成效的发挥。这一直是我作为领袖工作中非常重要的一部分，而现在比以往任何时候都更重要。
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**>>**: >> When I say I'm the leader, I'm sort of the conductor. I pick, you know, we we make sure we stay on the same tune. But there's talent oboist and they should be highlighted on their things. There's talented drummer, they should be highlighted. So, you got to try to make it into one tune, but let everybody shine because I am so impressed really almost out of breath impressed with how good these people are and now we have to make sure their talents can be used productively. That's a very important part of my it always has been an important part of my job as leader, but now more so than ever.>>: 让我再问一个无疑略显尴尬的问题，因为大家对此都很关注。正如他们所说，这就是你的工作——你将在两年后续任改选。参选多数党领袖（你刚才已经明确表达了这一意图），是否意味着你将竞选连任第六个参议员任期？
英文原文
**>>**: >> Let me ask you one more no doubt slightly uncomfortable question because people are people are interested in this. That's your job. As they say, you're up for reelection in 2 years. Does running for majority leader, the intent of which you just established, mean you're running for reelection for a sixth term?>>: 这并不必然意味着那个。
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**>>**: >> Almost by it doesn't mean that.>>: 这只是意味着，作为领袖，我现在的思考重心是集中在2027年，去落实——
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**>>**: >> It means simply what I'm thinking of now as leader is focused on 2027 delivering what>>: 多数党在第一年的议程——
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**>>**: >> the agenda for the first year of the majority in>>: 落实成果，建立团结，帮助这些更年轻的新成员施展才华。我的意思是，看看我们。杰弗里斯——
英文原文
**>>**: >> delivering it, creating unity, helping these new younger members talents shine. I mean, look at us. established no>>: 他后来加入的。我和他共事过。
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**>>**: >> came later. I I worked with him.>>: 他很出色。我对他而言有点像个老师。学生已经超越了老师。
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**>>**: >> He's great. I was like a little bit of a teacher for him. The student has surpassed the teacher.>>: 我之所以问这个问题，是因为我认为人们对接班问题很着迷。国会议员的高龄化，以及大家是否在为下一代让路，引起了极大关注。这就是我追问你的原因。
英文原文
**>>**: >> I only asked this question because I think there's fascination in succession. There's a lot of interest in how old the Congress is and whether or not folks are making room for the next generation. And that's why I'm pushing you.>>: 关键在于才能。如果你看看我们的人才，你知道，但是——
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**>>**: >> It's the talent. If you look at our people, you know, but>>: 你在回避我的问题。你到底会不会竞选连任？
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**>>**: >> you are sidestepping me. Are you going to be running for reelection?>>: 我专注于2027年。
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**>>**: >> I'm focused on 2027.>>: 如果你不想回答我的问题，我就由你给出这个回答，但我会在记录中写明你没有回答我的问题。
英文原文
**>>**: >> I'm going to let you give that answer if you don't want to answer my question, but I will note for the record that you didn't answer my question.>>: 没关系。那正是我习惯的方式。
英文原文
**>>**: >> That's okay. That's that's what I'm used to that立法议程与制衡特朗普
>>: 让我们转向你的议程，以及在你拥有这个多数席位且推测将担任其领袖之后，你认为自己获得了怎样的授权。
英文原文
**>>**: >> let's turn to your agenda and what you think your mandate is now that you have this majority and presumably will be its leader.>>: 好的。
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**>>**: >> Yes.>>: 在多大程度上是遏制特朗普？这似乎是这次中期选举传达出的巨大信号。在多大程度上是调查他的政府，以及你认为选民在多大程度上希望你们所有人将焦点放在那上面？
英文原文
**>>**: >> How much is it reigning in Trump? That seemed to be a huge message from this midterm. How much of it is investigating his administration and how much do you think voters want you all to focus on that?>>: 好的，好问题。对此我思考了很多。
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**>>**: >> Okay, good question. I've thought a lot about it.>>: 我想你确实想过。
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**>>**: >> I assume you have.>>: 首先，从这个前提开始：这是最——我又要骂人了，因为我对这家伙太愤怒了。他不仅是美国有史以来最他妈腐败的总统，也是最腐败的领导人。
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**>>**: >> First, start off with the premise. This is the most I'm going to curse again cuz I so angry at this guy. He is the most [ __ ] corrupt not only president but leader in America we have ever had.>>: 那个小金库。你指的是为那些在他看来是政府受害者的人设立的基金。
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**>>**: >> That slush fund. You're talking about the fund for those who were in his mind the victim of government.>>: 但不仅是他们。还有他自己的腰包。他是总统，却以普通公民身份向政府索赔100亿美元名誉侵权。然后作为总统，他握手和解，给了自己20亿美元。其中一部分会流向那些人，但一部分最终会落入他自己的口袋。这太令人发指了。所以我们不能对此视而不见，说我们不去调查。因此，我们必须调查最恶劣的腐败实例，并追究他手下的恶劣人员。我会支持他们明天就把赫格塞斯赶下台。
英文原文
**>>**: >> But it's not just them. It's his own pocket. He's president, but he sues the government for $10 billion for defamation as a citizen. Then as president, he shakes hands and settles and gives himself $2 billion. Some of it would go to those people, but some of it it's going to end up in his pocket. It's outrageous. So we cannot just turn away and say we're not investigating it. So we have to look into the most egregious examples of corruption and of going against his bad people. I would be for them kicking Hex Seth out tomorrow.>>: 你会支持解雇赫格塞斯。在你看来，他应该被解雇并受到弹劾。
英文原文
**>>**: >> You would be for him kicking Heath out tomorrow. You in your mind should be should be fired and impeached.>>: 是的。好，但第一位的是成本。反腐败很重要，但降低成本是第一位的。也就是说，重点是为美国人民降低生活成本并拿出实际行动。如果我们只盯着腐败，我们就会输掉。如果我们完全不碰腐败，我也很高兴你提到了这一点，因为我们必须处理一些，但不能让它掩盖并削弱我们能做的事。
英文原文
**>>**: >> Yes. Okay. But number one, costs. The corruption is important, but costs is number one. meaning focus on reducing the costs for the American people and doing some. If we just did corruption, we'd be a loser. If we didn't do any corruption, I'm glad you raised that because we got to do some but not let it overshadow and take away what we can do.>>: 民主党在特朗普第一任期内两次弹劾了他。加上他在两届总统任期之间面临的起诉，这些似乎只助长了他和共和党人的声望。不过你的意思是，你认为民主党可以一心二用，他们既能致力于降低成本，又能调查总统。你想看到他被弹劾吗？
英文原文
**>>**: >> Democrats impeach President Trump twice in the first term. That in combination with the prosecutions of him in the period between his presidencies seem to only fuel his and Republicans popular. You're saying though that you think Democrats can walk and chew gum. they can work to lower costs and investigate the president. Do you want to see him impeached?>>: 呃，这取决于众议院。我不会预先替他们做判断。
英文原文
**>>**: >> Uh, that's going to be up to the House. I'm not going to prejudge them.>>: 作为刚才痛骂他并称他为美国历史上最腐败总统的人，我看你听上去并不排斥这种可能性。
英文原文
**>>**: >> I don't see you, as the man who just cursed at him and called him the most corrupt president in American history. I don't see you sounding averse to the possibility.>>: 让我们看看众议院怎么做。
英文原文
**>>**: >> Let's see what the House does.>>: 好吧。我觉得我几乎知道答案了，因为你与他关系的基调看起来很清楚，但在中期选举之后的过去几天里，你与总统通过话吗？你给他打过电话吗？他给你打过吗？
英文原文
**>>**: >> Okay. I almost think I know the answer to this because the tone of of your relationship with him seems clear, but have you spoken with the president in the past few days since the midterms? Have you called him? Has he called you?>>: 没有。唐打过电话给我。
英文原文
**>>**: >> No, Don has called me.>>: 如果他打电话给你，你会接吗？
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**>>**: >> If he calls you, will you take it?>>: 我当然会接电话。我会听他怎么说。但你看，底线是——我对我的党团成员也说过这个，好吗？我们将推行我们的议程，推行我们所坚信的主张。有他没他都一样，在某种意义上他对我们并不重要。无论他做什么，我们都会向前推进。如果他加入我们——我对此表示怀疑——那很好。如果他不加入，我们依然会推进——
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**>>**: >> Of course, I'll take the call. I'll listen to him. But look, the bottom line is I've said this to my caucus members, okay? We are going to push our agenda, what we believe in. With him or without him, he's in a certain sense irrelevant to us. No matter what he does, we're going forward. If he joins us, I doubt he will, great. If he doesn't, we're still moving forward>>: 推进他可能会否决的立法。
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**>>**: >> with legislation that he may veto.>>: 他可能会否决它。如果他否决，这就会显露出分歧。要知道，尽管我们不希望政府停摆，但当我们为了医疗保健让政府停摆一个月时，民众知道我们站在他们这一边，对吧？
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**>>**: >> He may veto it. And if he vetos it, it will show the divisions. You know, as much as we didn't want a shutdown, when we shut down the government for a month over healthcare, people knew we were on their side,>>: 对，我们曾就那次停摆采访过你。没错。
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**>>**: >> right? We talked to you about that shutdown. That's right.>>: 是的。这里也是同样的情况。
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**>>**: >> We did. Same thing here.降低生活成本的五大领域与跨党派前景
>>: 好的。但从政治角度看，这听起来可能是一个有胜算的论点；但如果你想降低成本，如果你想恢复《平价医疗法案》的补贴，如果你想让生活变得更能负担，你就必须以总统愿意签署的方式立法。
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**>>**: >> Okay. But that sounds like potentially a winning argument politically, but if you want lower costs, if you want affordable care act subsidies to be restored, if you want life to be more affordable, you're going to have to legislate in a way that the president would sign.>>: 我不信任这家伙。我认为他不会签署。但如果他签了，那太好了。我不认为他会。
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**>>**: >> I don't trust this guy. I don't think he will. But if he does, great. I don't think he will.>>: 如果他不签，你如何降低成本？
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**>>**: >> If he doesn't, how do you lower costs?>>: 就拿《平价医疗法案》来说——
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**>>**: >> Take the Affordable Care Act,>>: 补贴问题。
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**>>**: >> the subsidies.>>: 我认为我们会争取到过去投反对票的共和党人，他们看到了这对他们的州和选举前景造成了多么恶劣的影响。有15到20名共和党人是特朗普的追随者。不管他做什么，他们都跟着做。还有两三个人有勇气抵制他。蒂利斯丢了工作，科宁因为特朗普丢了工作。但他们中的大多数人其实很讨厌他，只是不敢反对他。不过这次选举应该是一记警钟。如果你不反抗他们，你就会——
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**>>**: >> I think we're going to get Republicans who voted no in the past and saw how badly it affected their states and their electoral prospects. There are 15 or 20 Republicans who are Trump acolytes. Anything he does, they do it. And then there are two or three who had the courage to resist him. Tillis who lost his job, Cornin who lost his job because of Trump, but most of them really dislike him but have been afraid to buck him. But this election should be the handwriting on the wall. You don't buck them. You're>>: 应该是一记警钟。但是你听到这些议员表示他们愿意跨越党派界限，在降低住房成本等立法上与你合作吗？
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**>>**: >> should be. But are you hearing these lawmakers say that they will cross party lines and work with you on legislation to lower costs on housing?>>: 我们走着瞧。他们从来不会给出绝对明确的表态，但是的，在某些问题上我已经看到了初步迹象，但并非在每一个问题上。
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**>>**: >> We will see. They're never so definitive, but yes, I am getting initial signs that way on certain issues, not on every issue.>>: 无论总统签不签署，无论共和党人是否加入你们，你最希望看到哪项法案获得通过？［嗤笑］关于成本的。
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**>>**: >> What piece of legislation do you want to see get passed? No matter what the president does or doesn't do with it, no matter whether Republicans join you to get to on [snorts] costs.>>: 噢，关于成本。
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**>>**: >> Oh, on cost.>>: 好吧。先谈谈你的愿望，然后我们再——
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**>>**: >> Well, good. Start with your wish, but then let's get>>: 我最大的愿望是推翻“公民联合案”（Citizens United）判决，消除政治中骇人听闻的金钱数额。如果我们能让共和党人和特朗普……你知道，这是——
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**>>**: >> My one wish is that we undo Citizens United and the horrible amount of money in politics. And if we could get Republicans and Trump, you know, this is>>: 推翻最高法院的裁决，或者——
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**>>**: >> overrides the Supreme Court decision or or>>: 它并不推翻它。有办法在符合最高法院裁决的前提下遏制它。这与成本息息相关。这些事情之间的交织程度比人们想象的要紧密得多。
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**>>**: >> it doesn't override it. There are ways to curb it in line with the Supreme Court decision. And it relates to costs. The things are intertwined more than you know people might think.>>: 对普通美国人来说，消除政治中的金钱与降低他们的生活成本之间的联系是个有些抽象的论点。当涉及通过立法降低成本时，拥有庞大席位的你们希望具体通过什么法案？
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**>>**: >> That's a somewhat abstract argument for the average American getting rid of money in politics, lowering their costs. What when it comes to lowering costs legislatively do you want to see ratat that you guys with a huge house>>: 我们列出了想要解决的五个领域：医疗保健、电费、日用品食品杂货以及关税——与关税及你的实际支出相关、育儿和住房。这五个方面就是这些补贴。每个领域下都有四到五个具体要点，都是我们在各个领域为降低成本将采取的举措。
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**>>**: >> we laid out five areas that we want to go after? They were health care, electric costs, groceries and tariffs related to the tariffs and how much you pay, child care and housing. Those five are these subsidies. There are four or five points under each, but things we would do to lower the cost on each of them.>>: 你们打算通过立法取消总统的关税吗？
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**>>**: >> Are you going to try to legislatively get rid of the president's tariffs?>>: 是的，而且我们可以做到。
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**>>**: >> Yes, and we we can.>>: 你认为你们可以？
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**>>**: >> You think you can?>>: 尽管他可以否决，但答案是肯定的。我认为在这件事上我们会得到很多共和党人的支持。
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**>>**: >> Well, he can veto it, but yes. And I think we'll get good Republican support for that.油价、战争拨款与否决权博弈
>>: 你如何应对汽油价格？嗯。
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**>>**: >> How do you deal with gas prices? Mhm.>>: 头号议题。
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**>>**: >> The number one issue.>>: 结束那场该死的战争。
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**>>**: >> End the [ __ ] war.>>: 你如何结束这场战争？
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**>>**: >> How do you end the war?>>: 运用财政权。
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**>>**: >> Well, power of the purse.>>: 剥夺国防部进行战争所需的资金，对吧？
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**>>**: >> You deprive the Department of Defense of the money required to conduct the war,>>: 开国先父将财政权赋予国会，就是为了阻止总统打公众不想要的战争。我想这在《联邦党人文集》的某个地方写过。
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**>>**: >> right? The founding fathers gave the power of the purse to the Congress to stop the president from wars that the public didn't want. I think that was in the Federalist Papers somewhere or other.>>: 国会一直在继续为战争提供资金。
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**>>**: >> Congress has continued to fund the war.>>: 我们过去需要五张共和党选票。我们曾拿到过三张，然后是四张。我们现在会拿到更多。
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**>>**: >> We needed five Republican votes. We got three, then four. We'll get more now.>>: 你们会拿到的。你认为你可以通过这种方式结束这场战争？
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**>>**: >> You will. And you think you can bring this war to an end that way?>>: 我们希望如此。
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**>>**: >> Well, we hope so.>>: 好吧。我们讨论了医疗保健，讨论了汽油。你们会在住房问题上采取行动吗？
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**>>**: >> Okay. So, we covered we covered healthcare. We covered gas. Are you going to do anything on housing?>>: 会的。我们将采取更多行动，一方面让建房变得更容易，同时我们意识到必须找到建造更便宜住房的新方法，建得更快、更容易。我们在这方面有一些提案。
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**>>**: >> Yes. We're going to do more in terms of both making it easier to build housing and we realize you got to figure out new ways for cheaper housing to build it quicker and easier. And we have some proposals on that.>>: 嗯。参议员舒默，你们会尝试所有这些事情，但如果特朗普阻挠它们，如果他拒绝它们，如果他否决它们，如果共和党人不给你们推翻否决所需的选票，你们将承担责任。我相信这是你用过的词。
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**>>**: >> Mhm. You're going to try all these things, Senator Schumer, but if Trump scuttles them, if he rejects them, if he vetos them, if Republicans don't give you the votes to override them, you're going to be held responsible. I believe the words you use.>>: 底线是，今年当我们全力奋战时，人们看在眼里。你看，当你面对一个专横傲慢的总统时——开国先父、《联邦党人文集》，你知道，当他们担忧出现君王时，这家伙就像个国王。第一种制约方式是国会阻止他们。但在共和党人掌权时，他们没有阻止。第二种方式是选民，选民做到了。如果特朗普阻挠一切，而我们保持明确、团结和坚持不懈——我们不会只试一次就回家。
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**>>**: >> The bottom line is that this year when we fought hard, people saw it. Look, when you have an overweening president, the founding fathers, the federalist papers, you know, when they were worried about a king, this guy's like a king. The first way was the Congress to stop them. With the Republicans in charge, they didn't. The second way was the voters and the voters did. And if Trump blocks everything and we are clear and united and relentless, we don't just do it once and go home.>>: 那么选民会看到你们在战斗。
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**>>**: >> Then voters will see you fighting.>>: 没错。到了2028年，我们将赢得全面执政（拿下白宫和国会两院），我们就能做很多事。我更希望现在就办成，但我们会继续坚持下去。而且我相信这会让共和党人受到更沉重的打击。如果他们继续这么做，相比于2028年将发生的事情，2026年选举之夜对他们来说都算是一个好夜晚了。
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**>>**: >> Correct. And 2028, we get the trifecta and we can do a lot. I'd much prefer to get it done now, but we will keep at it. And I believe it will hurt the Republicans even worse. If they keep doing those things, make the night of 2026 elections look like a good night to them compared to what will happen in 2028.>>: 如果他们继续与你们死磕到底，以在你看来不受欢迎的方式对抗，那么他们失去白宫的规模将比这次失去两院还要惨重。
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**>>**: >> If they keep fighting you tooth and nail, right in ways that are unpopular in your mind, they will lose the White House on a scale even more meaningful than they lost these.>>: 我不想称其为双赢，因为我希望能办成实事，民众现在处于极大的痛苦中。
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**>>**: >> I don't want to call it a win-win because I'd like to do things that people are in such anguish.>>: 但横竖你们都赢。
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**>>**: >> You win either way.>>: 但你也可以这么说。
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**>>**: >> But you could put it that way.>>: 呵，我之前没这么想过。不过我认为很多选民不会这么看。
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**>>**: >> Huh? I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't think a lot of voters will see it that way, though.>>: 好吧，他们现在可能不会，但他们可能会——我们会提出这些论据。
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**>>**: >> Well, they may not now, but they may we'll make those arguments.执政愿景、阻挠议事规则与衡量标准
>>: 你在多大程度上感受到了这种重担？让我为你描述一下这种重担：特朗普以“美国优先”总统的形象参选，在两次选举中，许多美国人相信他是“美国优先”的总统。周二晚上，支持他的联盟开始瓦解。
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**>>**: >> How much do you feel this burden? And and let me just frame the burden for you. Trump ran as the America first president, and in two elections, a lot of Americans believed he was the America first president. On Tuesday night, the coalition behind him began to collapse.>>: 是的。
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**>>**: >> Yes.>>: 许多选民心中的问题是：民主党人的出现仅仅是为了放缓并试图阻止总统，还是为了现在就真正取代那种支离破碎的愿景？
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**>>**: >> And the question for so many voters is, are Democrats here to simply slow and try to stop the president or to genuinely replace that broken vision now?>>: 是的。我认为人们开始相信这一点了。我认为这次选举表明人们愿意在我们身上押注。但我也想说，如果我们拿不出成果，那我们可能会失去一切。但这并不是因为缺乏前进方向。我们已经说得很清楚了。对我的关键在于把事情办成。这并不容易。但我是一个立法者，一个不断战斗、战斗、战斗的人。这是我骨子里的布鲁克林性格。我们必须把事情办成。
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**>>**: >> Yes. And I think people are beginning to believe in it. And I think the election showed that people are willing to take a gander on us for that. But I would also say if we don't produce then we could lose it all. But it's not the lack of where we want to go. We've made that clear. The key for me is getting it done. And it's not easy. But I'm a legislator and I'm somebody who fights fights fights. That's the Brooklyn in me. And we got to get it done.>>: 有件事我希望之前在采访詹姆斯·塔拉里科时问过你。他还是候选人，尚未胜选。
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**>>**: >> There's something I wish I'd asked you earlier when I interviewed James Telerico. Still candidate, not yet winner.>>: 这是如此优秀候选人的一个例子，他将帮助我们保住得克萨斯州的民主党席位。
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**>>**: >> There's an example of such a great candidate who's going to help us keep Texas Democratic.>>: 我想他希望废除立法层面的“阻挠议事”（Filibuster）。
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**>>**: >> I think he would like the legislative filibuster to go away.>>: 嗯。
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**>>**: >> Mhm.>>: 因为在他以及许多民主党人看来，阻挠议事阻碍了多数派实现其意志的能力，哪怕你们拿到了56席。如果取消阻挠议事，你就不需要60票了。显而易见的风险是对方上台后也会利用这一点通过《拯救美国法案》，在选举方面做一些你们不希望看到的事情。你对这个问题有过深入思考吗？你的党团中将有几位新当选议员希望废除阻挠议事。
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**>>**: >> Because in his mind, and many Democrats mind, the filibuster prevents the ability of even a majority of say you get 56 from being able to get its will accomplished. If you get rid of the filibuster, you don't need 60 votes. The obvious risk is that the other side gets that and passes the Save America Act, does things you don't want around elections. Have you given deep thought to this question? Several of the incoming freshmen in your caucus will want the filibuster.>>: 有些人想要废除，有些人不想要。但我要说的是：我们的重点必须放在降低生活成本上，我们将寻找最佳、最快的途径。
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**>>**: >> Some want it, some don't want it. But I would say this, our focus has to be on reducing costs and we'll see the best and quickest way to go.>>: “最佳和最快的途径”。如果那意味着——
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**>>**: >> The best and quickest way. If if that means>>: 嗯——
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**>>**: >> um>>: 终结阻挠议事，你对此持开放态度吗？嗯。
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**>>**: >> ending the filibuster, are you even open to it? Mhm.>>: 我要说的是，我正在通过能否成功解决成本问题，以及混乱和腐败问题的视角来看待一切。
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**>>**: >> What I would say is I'm looking at everything through the prism of succeeding on our cost issue as well as chaos and corruption.>>: 嗯。最后让我再问一个问题。你认为在接下来的一年、一年半里，我们应该用什么指标来评价你？当谈到你和这个新民主党多数派要取得的成就时，你将用什么指标来评价自己？
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**>>**: >> Mhm. Let me just ask a final question here. What metrics do you think we should judge you by in the next year, in next year and a half? What metrics will you be judging yourself by when it comes to accomplishing what you and this new Democrat?>>: 首要的是，在成本、混乱和腐败方面取得切实的成果。第二，保持我们的参议院民主党党团——这里有如此多的人才——确保这些才能得到彰显，同时也保持我们的团结。
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**>>**: >> First and foremost, getting some real accomplishments on caused chaos and corruption. Second, keeping our caucus, our Democratic Senate caucus, which has so much talent, making sure those talents are uh highlighted, but also keeping us unified.>>: 不过我没有听到具体指标。我猜当问到你将如何衡量自己时，你脑海里一定有具体的数字。是一个具体的成本数字吗？是一个油价数字吗？我这么问并不是为了显得聪明。
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**>>**: >> I didn't hear specifics, though. And I I imagine you have them in your head when I asked you how you will measure yourself. Is it is there a cost? Is there a gas price? Is there I'm not trying to do this to be clever.>>: 不，我知道你不是，但这是一个目前无法确切回答的问题。我们在接下来的几个月里就会知道。你必须知道，是否会有战争？是否没有战争？你知道吗？所以，听着，
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**>>**: >> No, I know you're not, but it's a question that you can't really answer at the moment. We'll know over the next few months. And you got to know is there a war? Is there not a war? What are you know? So, look,>>: 你全力奋斗，办成实事。你知道，人民将是最终的裁判，而不是我或你。我们想向人民证明我们让他们的生活变好了，并且真切地改善生活。考虑到我们在选举之夜取得的成功——这是两年辛勤工作的结果，因为我的北极星始终是夺回参议院，我所做的一切都是通过这个视角审视的，它奏效了。但现在有了一个新的视角：交付成果。
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**>>**: >> you fight hard, you get things done, and you know, the people are going to be the ultimate judge, not me or not you. And we want to show the people that we have made their lives better and actually make it better. And I am given the success we had on election night because of two years of hard work because my northstar was always winning back the Senate. Everything I did is seen through that prison. It worked. But now there's a new prison produce.结语与新闻简报
>>: 参议员，一如既往地感谢你。我应该向听众指出，不知何故，我们刚来时没有生起、熄灭的这团火——我不认为这具有任何象征隐喻——但它现在在我们身旁熊熊燃烧，散发出大量的热量和声音。
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**>>**: >> Well, Senator, as always, thank you. And I should just point out for the listener that somehow mysteriously this fire that was not started that went out when we got here I I don't believe it to be any kind of metaphor but it is roaring now next to us producing a lot of heat and a lot of sound.>>: 这是一个隐喻——
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**>>**: >> It is a metaphor>>: 象征——
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**>>**: >> for>>: 代表我们的成功。［笑声］
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**>>**: >> take for our success. [laughter]>>: 参议员，我总是很感谢你的时间和坦诚。没想到会有脏话，但事实就是这样。［音乐］
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**>>**: >> Uh well Senator I always appreciate your time and your cander. Did not expect the profanity but it is what it is. [music]>>: 你知道，我来自布鲁克林。我以前总是不得不忍着，我想说那些词但不能说。世界变得更好了。现在如果你想说，你就可以说，而且不会像以前那样冒犯到别人。
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**>>**: >> You know, I I'm from Brooklyn. I always used to have to I wanted to say those words, but I couldn't. And the world's changed for a better. It's, you know, if you want to say them, you can, and it doesn't offend people the way it used to.>>: 是啊。也许是宾夕法尼亚大道1600号的一点习气影响到了国会大厦。
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**>>**: >> Yeah. It's a little bit maybe 16 Pennsylvania rubbing off on the capital.>>: 希望没有。希望那里的东西不要太多沾染过来。
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**>>**: >> Hope not. Hope not much rubs off out of there.>>: 再次感谢你。
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**>>**: >> Thank you again.>>: 保重。
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**>>**: >> Take care.>>: ［音乐］周四晚上，《泰晤士报》报道，对阿拉斯加州参议院竞选未清点选票的分析显示，民主党候选人玛丽·佩尔托拉有望赢得该场选举。与此同时，密西西比州的最新计票显示，该州民主党参议员候选人斯科特·科隆领先1800票。如果两位民主党人都被宣布获胜，舒默及其政党将在美国参议院拥有56个席位的多数。我们马上回来。
英文原文
**>>**: >> [music] On Thursday night, the Times reported that an analysis of outstanding ballots in the Alaska Senate race showed that the Democratic candidate, Mary Pelah, is on track to win that election. Meanwhile, the latest count in Mississippi showed the Democratic candidate for Senate there, Scott Colom, with a lead of 1,800 votes. If both Democrats are declared winners, it would give Schumer and his party a 56 seat majority in the US Senate. We'll be right back.>>: 以下是今天您需要了解的其他内容。［音乐］随着周二选举的计票工作继续进行，民主党在众议院的多数席位飙升超过250席，［音乐］创下近二十年来的最大多数。周四宣布的最新民主党胜利之一来自深红的蒙大拿州，［音乐］萨姆·福斯塔格通过主打亲工会的竞选主张赢得了这个长期由共和党人占据的席位，并获得了参议员伯尼·桑德斯的支持。
英文原文
**>>**: >> Here's what else you need [music] to know today. As vote counting from Tuesday's election continued, the Democratic House majority surged past 250 seats. [music] Its biggest majority in nearly two decades. One of the latest Democratic victories declared on Thursday was in bright red, Montana, [music] where Sam Forstag won a seat long held by Republicans by running on a pro- labor message that earned him an endorsement from Senator Bernie Sanders.>>: 此外，［音乐］周四美国股市遭遇了近两年来表现最糟糕的一天，原因是对国会中民主党胜利的担忧引发了对人工智能新监管的恐惧，同时投资者对大型科技公司不断攀升的债务水平感到担忧。股市抛售［音乐］抹去了包括英伟达、［音乐］Meta和亚马逊在内的该国部分最大科技公司数万亿美元的市值。
英文原文
**>>**: >> And [music] the US stock market suffered its worst day in nearly 2 years on Thursday as Democratic victories in Congress raised fears about new regulations on artificial intelligence and as investors bulked at the growing debt levels at big tech companies. The stock market [music] selloff erased trillions of dollars of value from some of the country's biggest tech companies including Nvidia, [music] Meta, and Amazon.>>: 今天的节目由奥亚·切尔韦德、克里斯·本德列夫、埃里克·克鲁普克和阿菲姆·夏皮罗制作。由雷切尔·奎斯特编辑，佩奇·考厄特和莉兹·奥阿隆协助。包含丹·鲍威尔、玛丽安·洛扎诺和艾丽西亚·比图卜创作的音乐，录音工程由克里斯·伍德完成。我们的主题音乐由 Wonderly 提供。［音乐］《The Daily》就到这里。我是迈克尔·巴巴罗。周日见。