Anna Martin: From the New York Times. I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. And today I'm talking to Stephanie Gunning. Stephanie is the kind of person who gets things done. If taxes need to be paid, she's paying them. If her kid needs a new backpack, she's buying, too. And when her husband got depressed, she was like, "Okay, no problem. We'll handle this, too." Even when it got really bad. And there was a day when it did get really bad. It was their nightmare scenario. But Stephanie, being Stephanie, [music] got through that day and went to work the next morning like nothing happened. I wanted to talk to Stephanie about the moment when she finally reached her own breaking point and what it's like for two people to love each other through the worst of it. Stephanie Gunning, welcome to Modern Love.

Stephanie Gunning: Well, thank you so much. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Anna Martin: Of course. Stephanie, I would love to hear your meat cute story with your husband, Jonathan.

Stephanie Gunning: Absolutely. It It really is. Um it's the kind of thing where if you read it, you'd think, you know, I don't believe this story. Like rewrite like [laughter] too cute.

Anna Martin: Yeah, too cute.

Stephanie Gunning: It's way too cute. No one's going to buy this. But um it is in fact a true New York story. So I uh I got married very young. I got married at 24. H that [snorts] marriage ended when I was 29 and it was the kind of dissolution of a marriage where you really just take stock of everything and I started taking all kinds of not risks. I mean I I don't want to make it sound like I was you know out there jumping out of planes or anything. I mean, it wasn't like that, but but I thought maybe I'm I I felt like I didn't really know myself or I thought maybe I'm someone who I don't know camps or

Anna Martin: a time of reinvention. We turn to the outdoors sometimes and we're looking for guidance.

Stephanie Gunning: So, I bought a bicycle, never rode that bicycle.

Anna Martin: Not one time. I [laughter]

Stephanie Gunning: It hung in my house.

Anna Martin: I have done that.

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah. I thought it looked so cute on my wall. I was like, "Look at me. I'm a Brooklyn girl with a bicycle." So, as part of the maybe I'm someone who camps, I had a a bunch of friends who are still some of my dearest friends and um they did camp. They were people who camp and they said, "We will take you camping." And I said, "Yay." They said, "You need a pair of water shoes for walking around on the Tinker Toy River." And then um you you need a um sleeping bag. And we were [laughter]

Anna Martin: the way you say that as if it's a foreign con. Sleeping bag. a bag for sleep.

Stephanie Gunning: And they said, "Everything else we will provide for you." Oh, and boots. I needed hiking boots.

Anna Martin: Okay. Crucial.

Stephanie Gunning: Crucial to this story. So, I went to EMS where every man is cute. Every one of them was like more adorable than the next. And they're all outdoorsy and rugged and, you know, like delicious and wearing a flannel. And I was like, "Oh, yay. The '90s." Um, so I said, "Hi, I'm I need to buy these three things. water shoes, hiking boots, sleeping bag. And the man said, "Oh, if you need boots, let me call Jonathan. He's the boot fitting expert." And I said, "Cool." So they called Jonathan. And from the back of EMS comes, a young Gary Senise, I don't know how else to describe it, in golden light. And I heard the pixies singing, "Here comes your man." I'm not even joking.

Anna Martin: And I was like, "Oh dear." Can you sing it? What'd you hear in your ear?

Stephanie Gunning: It was like Na, here comes your man. And I thought, it was not even playing on the soundtrack. I just was in [laughter] my brain. And I thought, oh my goodness, he was with the kaleidoscope, green and hazel eyes. He was a cyclist and a hiker. Just an out slim.

Anna Martin: He's expert at fitting boots.

Stephanie Gunning: And he will take care of you in the outdoors. M

Stephanie Gunning: And the thing also about Jonathan and this is the thing that drew me to him like a magnet is the the calmness that he emanates. I don't know how else to describe it. It like being near a tree. I don't know how else to describe it.

Anna Martin: Oh, I love that. Being near a tree.

Stephanie Gunning: And I thought, "Oh, oh yes. I'm going to buy everything in this store from this man." And so he fit me for boots. And he's like, "Okay, great." He said, "So, um, is there anything else that you need?" And I was like, "Boy, do I."

Anna Martin: It is not an exaggeration to tell you. I spent about $1,000 on camping equipment.

Stephanie Gunning: No, I did. I couldn't I couldn't stop. So, I got my my boots. I got my water shoes. I got I don't know, three pairs, four pairs of Smartwool socks.

Stephanie Gunning: I got my sleeping bag. And then I said to him, you know, he said, "Are are do you know, are you I said, I think I need a tent."

Anna Martin: Why did I need a tent? You didn't need one.

Stephanie Gunning: And so he shows me a tent and I said, "Um, oh [snorts] yeah, that looks good." I said, "Could you show me how to put it together?" And he was I mean he was such a love and he was like, "Sure." So he puts the tent together

Stephanie Gunning: and I I mean really I I still think I you know like I've kept it pretty tight, but like did I have game in the late '9s coming out of that divorce?

Anna Martin: I mean with Yeah, I was that girl.

Stephanie Gunning: So, I climb in the tent that he puts together and I stick my little head out and I'm like, "You're going to think this sounds crazy, but could you come in here with me?"

Anna Martin: Oh my god.

Stephanie Gunning: He's like, "Huh?" I was like, "I just want to see how it feels with two people." So, I uh I was in the tent. He climbed in the tent and there he was. And I thought, I mean, I got nothing to lose at this point. And so, I said, "This is going to sound nuts, but you seem like someone who it would be really fun to go camping with. Are you free this weekend?"

Anna Martin: I really am saying I'm rocking with you. I'm rolling with you for real.

Stephanie Gunning: We're going for it.

Anna Martin: I went

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah,

Anna Martin: I went there.

Anna Martin: And what did he say?

Stephanie Gunning: No.

Anna Martin: Okay. [laughter]

Stephanie Gunning: Well, so he he he got all flustered and and he was like, "Um, I have a girlfriend." Oh, shoot. And I was like, "Okay, all right then."

Anna Martin: Yeah, fair play.

Stephanie Gunning: So, it is. And then I was like, "Shit, I'm going to have to buy this tent anyway, though, because otherwise he's going to know

Anna Martin: totally

Stephanie Gunning: that I

Anna Martin: You're like, "What's the return policy on this stuff?" Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: Right. So, he packs up all my stuff, my thousand worth of equipment, and I as I'm I pay and I give him my business card, and [snorts] um and he was like, "Oh, um I said, you know, things change. Just things change." So, that was in the summer of 2000. Fast forward to 911.

Anna Martin: Okay,

Stephanie Gunning: so now we're talking a, you know, more than a year later,

Stephanie Gunning: and 911 happened. I happened to have a um a landline phone and word got out in the neighborhood that I had a landline and strangers were just showing up at my house with baked goods and pizzas and their guitars and saying, you know, my name's Mike. I hear you have a landline. Would it be okay if I came in and called my parents? I brought this pizza.

Anna Martin: Because the cell towers were down, correct?

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah, exactly. Cell phones weren't working.

Stephanie Gunning: So, I um called into my voicemail at work. I was working at MTV at the time.

Stephanie Gunning: And lo and behold, there's a message from him

Stephanie Gunning: and the voicemail essentially said, uh, "I don't know if you're going to remember me. I sold you a Boots in the summer of 2000. We've emailed a couple of times. Um, I I I have your business card. I know that you work uh below 14th Street. Can you please just get in touch with me and let me know that you're okay? Um, I carry your business card with me. I think about you every day."

Anna Martin: What?

Stephanie Gunning: "I broke up with my girlfriend."

Anna Martin: Oh my god.

Stephanie Gunning: "But I didn't qu want to call you right after I broke up with her cuz I thought that would be weird. So then I wanted to wait a little bit, but then I got scared." [laughter]

Stephanie Gunning: Um,

Anna Martin: he's laying it all out on the line.

Stephanie Gunning: "So could you call me back? By the way, this is Jonathan." [laughter]

Anna Martin: I am completely endeared by that.

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: You know, he was the cute boot guy. Cute boot.

Anna Martin: Cute boot. cute boot, [gasps]

Stephanie Gunning: you know, and now to get this voicemail that he has been thinking about you since he met you, carrying your business card around.

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Anna Martin: I mean, how did that make you feel?

Stephanie Gunning: You know, one of the themes of my own life is never being chosen.

Stephanie Gunning: And I can't tell you if it's true or not, but it's how I felt. I understand that

Stephanie Gunning: I had an awful biological father. My mom kicked him out when I was six, thank God.

Stephanie Gunning: Um, but he showed up every now and then in my life and never for good. And when he did show up, I always had to audition, you know, like I was never I was never the thing he wanted me to be as a daughter. So I just always felt like not chosen, you

Anna Martin: not chosen,

Stephanie Gunning: you know, like I was always auditioning and never quite measuring up, never quite fitting in. And when that voicemail came through, I thought, is this beautiful man choosing me?

Anna Martin: Really?

Anna Martin: Me? So, you call him back?

Stephanie Gunning: I called him back.

Stephanie Gunning: I was like, you bet I remember you.

Stephanie Gunning: "Get on that bicycle and come to Brooklyn." [snorts]

Stephanie Gunning: And I still wasn't sure if we were dating or if he just wanted to be friends. Like, I I I was so

Anna Martin: He's carrying your damn business card around.

Stephanie Gunning: But but I had it in my mind that because of what he looked like and because of the family he came from, he comes from this lovely Connecticut family. I grew up in the Bronx. And I remember saying like, I really think he might be out of my league. And my mother said to me, what does that mean? And I said, I just think he dates the kind of women who can wear a bandana as a shirt. [laughter]

Stephanie Gunning: You know what I mean? Those women,

Anna Martin: of course, you know what she can like.

Anna Martin: That is not at all where I thought that was going. Totally. I get that.

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah. Like she's at the campsite and she takes a bandana and she ties it and it's a shirt.

Anna Martin: I know what you're saying.

Stephanie Gunning: Yes.

Anna Martin: Because it's not really about the bandana. What did you mean? The kind of girl who what? He probably dated the kind of girl who

Stephanie Gunning: slim,

Stephanie Gunning: grew up in the suburbs,

Stephanie Gunning: grew up with wealth, grew up with an intact family. you know, didn't always have to feel like she was auditioning to be chosen, but who who could choose. She herself could choose. I I like what you said. Who would who could choose?

Anna Martin: Yes.

Stephanie Gunning: It was the kind of person who could choose.

Anna Martin: So, you're going on these dates with Jonathan, but you're not sure if he's romantically interested in you.

Stephanie Gunning: Correct.

Anna Martin: And when did that become clear?

Stephanie Gunning: So, I want to say it was our third date. M

Stephanie Gunning: so he took me on a a a private tour of Grant's tomb

Stephanie Gunning: and Yeah. And I kept thinking like, is he ever going to kiss me? Like we're here. It's a romantic tomb.

Anna Martin: We're in the tomb.

Stephanie Gunning: Hello.

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah. So then after the tomb, he took me to his favorite bar and he got up. He went to the restroom. He came back. He sat down. He said, "I need your help with something." And I said, "Oh, okay." He was like, "Look, here's the thing. This is our third date. You're going to have to kiss me. I have been trying all day and I don't have the guts for this. You're gonna have to do it, but we got to do it this date because you're gonna friend zone me otherwise. He's like, I I know the rules. Three dates or I'm in the zone. Please just do it. And I was like, uh, okay."

Anna Martin: He was having the same thoughts about you.

Stephanie Gunning: Correct.

Anna Martin: I mean, g give me a break.

Stephanie Gunning: I know. Here's what I will say. You know, these first couple dates, you're getting to know each other, but you're still putting your best foot forward, as it were.

Anna Martin: Oh, yes. both of you. It sounds like

Stephanie Gunning: absolutely

Anna Martin: and at some point the more real picture of who Jonathan is Yeah. becomes very clear and and not to say that in any kind of foreoding way but just a more complete picture. This happened on your fourth date. Tell me that story.

Stephanie Gunning: So now we're supposed to go on his fourth date and he was going to take me to his favorite Chinese restaurant

Stephanie Gunning: and he called me and he said, "Listen, I I think maybe we should postpone."

Stephanie Gunning: And I said, "Oh, oh, okay. What what's up?" And he said, "You know, I'm having a really rough night

Stephanie Gunning: or a really rough day." And I said, "What do you mean?" And he said, "It's just it's uh" He said, "You know, I told you I Yeah, I uh I have depression and and I and anxiety." He's like, "I'm just I'm having a hard day." [snorts]

Stephanie Gunning: And I said to him, "Listen, here's the thing. If you and I are going to do this, you're going to have to show me. So, I'm coming. You told me there were soup dumplings. I'm coming and you're going to show me." He said, "Or we can cancel."

Anna Martin: So, show you what? what it was when he said, "I'm I'm depressed. I'm anxious. I'm having a hard day." I said, "I show me. Show me what you mean." I said, "Or we can just not see each other again because I'm already so far along. You got to let me in. Show it to me."

Anna Martin: You're so far along in that. And what does that mean? That you're so You're in love with him.

Stephanie Gunning: I just was I couldn't imagine not being I mean he was I talked to him every he called me every morning at work to say hello. I called him every night to say good night.

Stephanie Gunning: I mean it it just and and we were hadn't slept together yet even

Stephanie Gunning: and but he just we fell in with each other. So he said

Stephanie Gunning: okay. [laughter]

Anna Martin: Really?

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah. He's like I'll see you there. And so we met at the restaurant and we sat down and I said, "Okay, tell me and he told me, you know, he told me that he had uh suffered with depression and anxiety his whole life." Do you remember even I mean, and I know it's a a while ago, but like do you remember a specific thing he told you about his depression or what can you recall?

Stephanie Gunning: You know what he said to me was it's and I I I I

Stephanie Gunning: I do want to give a trigger warning here for for suicide because um because suicide is something that is uh I don't want to say it's large in our life but it's present I think in a way that it maybe isn't for other people.

Stephanie Gunning: He said, "You know, sometimes it just gets very dark and and I feel afraid to leave my house and I worry that no one needs me, no one loves me, no one cares about me, and you know that I I'm not contributing, you know, and and I you know, I I said, "Do you ever have you ever have you ever thought about suicide?"

Anna Martin: That's a very um very direct question for you to ask. So, we talked about suicide and

Anna Martin: what did he say when you asked him that question?

Stephanie Gunning: He said that he had contemplated getting a gun and shooting himself,

Stephanie Gunning: "but it seemed like quite a hassle." [laughter]

Stephanie Gunning: So, we we talked and talked and talked about our families, about our darkest secrets, about the things we're ashamed of. We both cried. We the they brought us extra tea. I mean it it it was it was the kind of conversation you have with someone after years or your therapist. I mean but we just went for broke.

Anna Martin: I mean it it it does strike me that this conversation this early in a budding relationship might scare someone.

Stephanie Gunning: Oh yes.

Anna Martin: when you left the Chinese restaurant from that fourth date, were you thinking differently about your future with Jonathan? You know, when we were done eating and everything, so he said to me at the end of dinner, you know, finally they were like, "We are closing. You must leave." And we were like, "Okay, we'll leave." [snorts]

Stephanie Gunning: He said to me, "So, what do you think?"

Anna Martin: Huh? Wow. What a seemingly innocuous question that contains so much. What do you think? What did you take that to mean?

Stephanie Gunning: I took it as are we gonna see each other again or is this it? Like what do you think? Yeah.

Anna Martin: And I was like, you said you live near her, right?

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah, girl.

Stephanie Gunning: And he said, as a matter of fact, I do. This way, please. [laughter]

Stephanie Gunning: And up we went to his little studio and it was magical. It was all just easy. You know, I'm just thinking about this, you know, half an hour before you were smooching in his studio, you were opening up about the darkest corners of yourselves that you hadn't shown, it sounds like, to many people, if anyone else. That's right.

Stephanie Gunning: So, it's easy in some ways and it's incredibly difficult in other ways. But it's a very brilliant observation because all of it was so easy. We forgot it was also hard.

Anna Martin: Huh.

Stephanie Gunning: I really thought and I mean this sounds so naive.

Stephanie Gunning: I really thought that we would love each other enough that we would never have problems again. Was there ever a moment where you stopped and thought like we should maybe make a plan for for how we might deal with this if it come No.

Anna Martin: No.

Stephanie Gunning: Nope.

Stephanie Gunning: My thought was not should I marry someone who is very clearly living with a major depressive disorder

Stephanie Gunning: who has medication and therapy. And look, it had not all been smooth sailing. He had had he's always had rough days. He's always had anxiety. He always struggled in certain ways.

Stephanie Gunning: But I loved him so much.

Stephanie Gunning: And I just didn't care. It never crossed my mind. I just figured our love will find a way

Anna Martin: and I will find a way. Our love will find a way

Stephanie Gunning: and I will find a way.

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Anna Martin: We'll be [music] right back. [music] [music] You get married.

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. And then you start this married life together.

Anna Martin: You know, early on in your relationship, Jonathan had on that fourth date. Yeah. Jonathan had shared, you know, about the ways he'd struggled in the past that the depths that he'd reached.

Anna Martin: When you were living together in this in this new married life, did you see that side of him?

Stephanie Gunning: Mhm. [snorts]

Anna Martin: Yeah. What did it look like like specifically? Um,

Stephanie Gunning: it looked like sleeping in.

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Stephanie Gunning: It looked like um quiet.

Stephanie Gunning: It looked like difficulty socializing with others, being with friends, going places, doing things.

Stephanie Gunning: And then the other times things were great.

Anna Martin: In the times when it was tough, would you what was your approach? Would you talk to him? Would you give him space? How did you handle it?

Stephanie Gunning: I compensated.

Stephanie Gunning: I comp I I I don't want to say I made excuses for him,

Stephanie Gunning: but I I think I did.

Anna Martin: Yeah. [laughter] Well, tell me.

Stephanie Gunning: I don't want to say it, but as I'm thinking I'm like, but I did.

Anna Martin: As in like that your friends would be like, "Where's Jonathan?" And you'd be like, "He's just working.

Stephanie Gunning: He's working." Or, "Oh, he's something." Like I I often would describe him as shy. I would say, "Oh, Jonathan is shy." Huh? That's why he's so quiet. John is not shy.

Anna Martin: John is gregarious.

Anna Martin: And you said that because you wanted to protect him or

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. Cuz I wanted to protect him because he is my precious love and because the world is hard for him sometimes and because it's no one's business. So yeah, I I wanted to protect him. And then when he was down, I don't even know if that's what language would you use? How would you talk about it to each other when you were well he was lower?

Stephanie Gunning: So I would get angry a lot you know I don't want to paint myself as any kind of saint.

Stephanie Gunning: I did get angry and we would fight sometimes.

Anna Martin: What were you angry about?

Stephanie Gunning: I felt he would disappear. So the way I talk about it and have talked about it is I talk about the dock.

Stephanie Gunning: So I have a lot of pictures of Jonathan facing away from me looking out over vistas. I don't know how this started, but like he was he just would sort of strike a pose and like look out on the Grand Canyon or look out over a bridge and I I found it so endearing like his body language was like look at that. So I I would have all these pictures of him facing away from me looking out at something and some [snorts] of them are docks and I would say to him the depression is like the dock

Stephanie Gunning: and how far you are away on the dock is how bad things are in terms of the depression. Mhm.

Stephanie Gunning: And so sometimes he would just be like 2 feet out on the dock and I'd be like, "Hey, come back. Turn around. Come back here." And then he sometimes he'd be really far and I couldn't even touch him and I'd have to yell and be like, "Jonathan, turn around. Come back. You're too far." Other times he would disappear and I could just sort of make out him his his his outline in the mist and I' I'd get scared and I would say I would I would call for him like, "Come back. Come back to me." And when he would get far away, I would get angry

Stephanie Gunning: because it's I would feel abandoned, which of course, you know, I I think I've told you enough now already like that for me is, you know, don't leave me. [laughter] Whatever you do, stay sick. I don't care. I don't care how sick you are. Stay [snorts] with me. You can't You can't leave me. Sorry. No, I'm I mean it's I am feeling extremely moved by this image. Come back to me. Come back to me.

Stephanie Gunning: You know, early in the relationship, very early, I um I had just we were just newly married and I got pregnant the oldfashioned way, by which I mean by accident.

Stephanie Gunning: And um I found out I was pregnant while I was at work. I was in a bathroom stall at Nickelodeon. I [laughter] and the first person I told was the guy at the deli because I needed a decap.

Anna Martin: It's a real New York [snorts] story.

Stephanie Gunning: It's such a New York, you know, shout out to Abraham at the Starlight Deli who was the first person who knew I was pregnant.

Stephanie Gunning: Um, but I went home that night and I I very tearfully said to him, "I have something to tell you." [snorts]

Stephanie Gunning: And I I was a vegetarian when he met me because I had been through a bout of food poisoning. So, I was off meat. And then when I was pregnant but didn't know it, I started eating bacon twice a day. And I was like, I'm cheating on John with bacon. And I went home after I had taken my pregnancy tests, like three of them in the stall at Nickelodeon. I was like, this can't be happening. I went home and I very tearfully said to him, I have something to tell you. And [snorts] he said, "What?" And I said, "I'm pregnant and I've been eating bacon." [laughter]

Stephanie Gunning: And he said, "You've been eating bacon?" And I said, "Yes, and I'm pregnant."

Stephanie Gunning: So, we went to sleep that night. We woke up the next morning

Stephanie Gunning: and I got up. I went to the bathroom and I started crying and I thought, "I cannot do this. I this I this I can't do this. I cannot have a baby." And I woke him up from a sound sleep and said, "Listen to me."

Stephanie Gunning: "I don't know who the hell I think I am. I don't I don't know who [clears throat] I thought I was that I could have this life. I don't know who I've been playing at. Girls like me don't get lives like this. So, here's what I need. I want a divorce and I want an abortion."

Anna Martin: Wow.

Stephanie Gunning: And I I I can't like this is over now. I cannot live through this because I will have this baby and it'll turn you into a father and fathers leave and I can't do it. I can't do it, Jonathan. So, I want an abortion and I want a divorce. And he sat with me and he said, and this is [snorts] anything else you need to know about Jonathan, you will now learn.

Stephanie Gunning: Jonathan said to me, "Look, if you want an abortion, I will take you for an abortion today. If you want a divorce, I will give you a divorce. But here's the thing." [snorts] He's like, "You know that thing in Winnie the Pooh where where the character says, if you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be 100 minus one day so I never have to be without you." And he said, "Stephanie, here's the thing. I will sit on the stoop if that's what it requires. But if you live to be a hundred, I'm gonna live to be 100 plus one day so that you never have to be without me cuz I am the man who's never going to leave you."

Stephanie Gunning: And I said, "Okay, we'll have a baby." Yeah, that was it. I said, "Okay, I'll have let's have the baby." And this is how your daughter was born. That's how Emmy came.

Stephanie Gunning: That's how Emmy came. Yeah.

Anna Martin: Once Emmy was born, how did you talk about, you know, Jonathan dad's depression with her?

Stephanie Gunning: Mhm. Often.

Anna Martin: Really?

Stephanie Gunning: Yes.

Anna Martin: From from what age?

Stephanie Gunning: Always.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Stephanie Gunning: So, I grew up with secrets.

Stephanie Gunning: Because of this, and I it it it sort of doesn't matter what the secrets were. The point is there were many like jump scares.

Anna Martin: Yeah. in my own growing up like what you know. [laughter]

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: What do [snorts] you mean grandpa isn't your father? So it was really important for us that there be no secrets in our household. Privacy.

Anna Martin: Absolutely. Everyone is entitled to their privacy. No question about that. But not secrets. No jump scares.

Anna Martin: So how would you talk about depression with a really young kid?

Stephanie Gunning: We called it the big blue.

Anna Martin: The big blue. Yeah.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Stephanie Gunning: We called it the big blue. We drew pictures of it and we talked about how sometimes dad, you know, dad dad has a kind of sadness called the big blue and sometimes the big blue is little and it just kind of floats around with him and he can be like, "Quit it big blue. Get out of here. Scram you." [snorts] Other times the big blue wraps itself around dad. Other times the big blue is so big that you can almost not see dad. But dad is always there. Dad, you can always find dad. You can always see dad. But sometimes the big blue is a little bigger than dad and we have to give him lots of love and lots of understanding during those times. Um yeah, and he was her primary caretaker and you know we raised her together obviously but I worked full-time and he stayed home with her and took care of her and and took her to the doctor and he was the school parent and you [snorts] did all this while depressed because you can live a life depressed. You know, that's the other thing like people talk about depression as as um oh that's when I was depressed almost like it was a a a c um you know an individuated time or

Anna Martin: a chapter in your life that you can enter and then leave.

Stephanie Gunning: It's not you know you were just a person who lives with depression the same way you live with any chronic illness.

Stephanie Gunning: You know it it doesn't have to be a time in your life that is secret and it doesn't have to be something to be ashamed of.

Anna Martin: Where was your mental health at this time? So the toilet is really the answer. Um and you know I mean that's that sounds facitious.

Stephanie Gunning: I never actually stopped to think about my mental health. Everything rested on me.

Stephanie Gunning: A lot of things got done. You know everybody's life was very easy because I was a pretzel turning myself in and out. Everybody had health insurance because I worked to stay employed and big jobs, you know, cuz because I was our sole bread winner and I wanted us to have a certain kind of life because it mattered to me. [snorts] I like a nice blanket

Anna Martin: and you wanted your family to be comfortable and and have those blankets as well.

Stephanie Gunning: Of course,

Anna Martin: you were you were handling it. Correct. I mean, he was he was at home with Emmy.

Anna Martin: Certainly. So, you were you had your parts, but you were really you were the one who was keeping the plate spinning.

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. I mean, you know, I joke about if there was a form to fill out. [laughter]

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Anna Martin: They both come.

Anna Martin: You're going to be filling out the form.

Stephanie Gunning: Literally, I have been in meetings like in London and someone will send me a note. What is my password? It's like I

Anna Martin: Oh my god. No. I mean,

Stephanie Gunning: but I know it's the thing. It's like, hold on, I have it. Like, I do have your That's the thing. I have your password and I do know how to log into the max and I also um yes I did file the taxes and I did pay the insurance premium and yes the mortgage is on autopay but but when you live your life that way there's so little softness you know the the margins are so thin because I always felt

Stephanie Gunning: and I don't know that I could have articulated this before very recently if I made a misstep. The whole thing fell down.

Anna Martin: That is a lot of pressure, Stephanie.

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. And when I say the whole thing falls down, I I mean the schools Emmy goes to,

Stephanie Gunning: the way we live our life, the way we spend our money. You know, I want to take us back for a moment. You know, I said to you as a younger woman, I was constantly like auditioning for my own life. Love me. I'm worthy. I'm someone like choose me.

Stephanie Gunning: That never really stopped. You know, there was still this nature of I will be the most competent employee. I will be the most loving wife. I will be the most excellent mother. Look at all the look at the summer camps. Look at the private college. Look at the the dog goes to daycare. The look at our look at our home in the bougiest Brooklyn neighborhood that ever bougie. Look at us going to Cape Cod for two week. like

Stephanie Gunning: it mattered because it mattered to me that they feel my love in these tangible, provable ways.

Anna Martin: It sounds like family life, life at home was relatively stable for quite a while.

Stephanie Gunning: Mhm.

Anna Martin: Tell me when that changed.

Stephanie Gunning: So, in 2023, Jonathan called me at work to say, "Yeah, I'm not feeling so well. I I think I might be having a heart attack. I'm going to go to the hospital." And um he had multiple pulmonary embisms. He was discharged from the hospital. He came home. He was on blood thinners, followup with um you know, with doctors and we were supposed to just go on with our life. And he just it was an existential crisis for him. He recovered physically, but emotionally he just got darker and darker and more and more frightened and more and more sad. He did um an intensive outpatient program. He did ketamine therapy. He did um EMDR. I mean, he just was so traumatized by the the existential fear of this.

Stephanie Gunning: And I I mean, I I don't pretend to know exactly what happened, whether it was a chemical reaction or but he he just kept slipping farther and farther away. And it, you know, we talked about the dock. It was the first time I couldn't see him.

Anna Martin: Stay with us. [music] [music]

Anna Martin: You've described that he's he's getting farther and farther away from you, and I wonder if you can bring me into the morning where you almost lost him. He had been doing therapy online

Stephanie Gunning: and I heard him shrieking during his therapy session, crying and shrieking.

Stephanie Gunning: I am not proud of this, but I recall I was sitting at my desk. I was working from home and I was like, "Oh god, what now?"

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: You cuz I was angry.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: But I was also really scared.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: You know, and I felt defeated cuz we had done everything and I thought, "Oh my god, like what is there left to do?" And I remember thinking like,

Stephanie Gunning: is he going to come back? I mean, it was terrifying. And he said,

Stephanie Gunning: "I have to go. Or I'm going to hurt myself. I have to go. I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to hurt Emmy. I have to go. I can't. I have to go."

Anna Martin: Had you heard him say anything before?

Stephanie Gunning: Never. Never. Ever. Ever.

Anna Martin: Were you scared?

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. Yes.

Stephanie Gunning: And it was, you know, come for me. All right, maybe we go down together, you and me. It wouldn't be the worst thing. You come for my daughter.

Stephanie Gunning: If there's a choice to be made, my friend, I choose her.

Anna Martin: But this is impossible.

Stephanie Gunning: Impossible.

Anna Martin: Because this is your husband, correct?

Anna Martin: Who you love.

Stephanie Gunning: Yes.

Stephanie Gunning: The thought that he the the love and tenderness and kindness and devotion he has shown to both of us. The exquisite care he has taken with both of us. I watched him raise her.

Stephanie Gunning: The fact that this man, this gentle, loving man, would say, "I'm scared I'm going to hurt myself. I'm scared I'm going to hurt you. I'm scared I'm going to hurt her."

Anna Martin: I was scared to death. Did you talk to Emmy about what was happening?

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. I went into Emy's room and I said, "Here's what's going on."

Anna Martin: Okay.

Stephanie Gunning: Um, dad, and you know, when she was 12, I remember saying to her like, "Dad's dad's having a real rough big blue." And she's like, "Mom, I know it's depression." Like,

Anna Martin: so

Anna Martin: it's like not Santa Claus.

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah. It's like, I get it. You know, so I went and I said, "Listen, dad's having a really rough time." And she said, "Oh, I heard."

Stephanie Gunning: And um I said, "I'm going to take dad to the hospital. Walk the dog. I'll be back as soon as I can."

Stephanie Gunning: And Emmy said to me, "Mommy, are you okay?"

Stephanie Gunning: And I said, "Oh, yeah. I'm fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine. Don't worry. Everything I'll be back. I'll be back later. I love you. I'll see you later." [snorts]

Stephanie Gunning: So, off we go in our lift to NYU Hospital.

Stephanie Gunning: We walk in the doors and let me tell you, you walk up to the front desk and they say, "Why are you here?" And you say, "I'm afraid I'm going to kill myself and my family." Boy, oh boy. You do not have to sit in triage.

Anna Martin: Noted.

Stephanie Gunning: Noted. Yeah. So, the social worker comes flying in and we are taken into a room. He is He doesn't even look like himself. Like I

Stephanie Gunning: the physical changes that came over him as a result of this depressive episode um were really astounding. He, you know, I talked to you about his kaleidoscope eyes,

Anna Martin: flat brown,

Stephanie Gunning: his posture change. He's like 6 feet 61 6'2 around there. Um, he was all hollowed in, short, small.

Stephanie Gunning: He he he seemed like a a a shadow of himself. I don't know how else to describe it. So, everyone was wonderful. They sat him down and, you know, they they have to do the entry and and they ask you the horrible questions. Have you ever thought about hurting yourself? Yes. Have you ever thought about hurting others? Yes. Who have you thought about hurting? My wife. My daughter. What are you thinking? I'll get a gun. Oh my god. Um I'll shoot them and I'll shoot myself.

Anna Martin: And And you're in the room with me?

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. I was in the room.

Anna Martin: That is so intense.

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: And I was holding him.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Stephanie Gunning: I was holding him and he was like, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry." And I said, "No, no, no, no. It's all right. This is the place to say it. This is the place to say it."

Anna Martin: So this was basically the worst case scenario.

Stephanie Gunning: Yes.

Anna Martin: Every worst Well, I guess not the worst case in the sense that he did something to himself, but him having these thoughts. Yes. Is the extreme end of anything you've seen from him?

Stephanie Gunning: It was one step from the worst. The worst is that he hurt himself, Emmy and me.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: Well, the real nightmare is he hurt himself and Emmy and left me alone.

Stephanie Gunning: That that is Endgame. Um we were two steps from endgame and I am so grateful to him for reaching out from the the dark and saying, "Help me. Help me. I I c I cannot pretend anymore that I'm getting better. I am not getting better. Help me."

Anna Martin: Were you worried about

Anna Martin: if he as Jonathan would ever come back to himself?

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. Oh, yes. I I I I and I remember thinking things like, I don't I don't think I ever want to date again. I don't think I ever want

Anna Martin: So, you're going into the like you you divorce type or you break up type thing.

Stephanie Gunning: long-term planning. I mean, every possible scenario. But the thing is that can be very useful when you're producing an event, for example, or writing a campaign or doing message testing. You know, all the things I do in my work, it can be very useful to think what happens if the truck with the costumes breaks down on the highway. Mhm. [snorts]

Stephanie Gunning: It is not so useful for your brain to run every possible scenario when what you need to do that night is comfort your daughter and take care of your dog and set up the coffee. And how about let work know that your entire life just fell apart and maybe you won't be there tomorrow.

Anna Martin: Did you not let them know that?

Stephanie Gunning: I went to work the next day.

Anna Martin: Oh my gosh.

Stephanie Gunning: Mhm. Because I'm okay is my brand, right? competency, holding it together, keeping it together.

Anna Martin: How long did Jonathan stay in the hospital?

Stephanie Gunning: Two weeks.

Anna Martin: Two weeks. Yeah.

Anna Martin: And when he came home Mhm.

Anna Martin: what was the situ You planned for all these different situations. What was the actual reality of the situation?

Stephanie Gunning: So, while he was in the hospital, um you know, they rehydrated and all of his medicine, but the most important thing they did for him was he went through 13 rounds of ECT.

Anna Martin: Mhm. And that's that is

Stephanie Gunning: electroconvulsive therapy. And ECT has a terrible reputation

Stephanie Gunning: as being torture, the last resort. So, you know, people think of ECT as a nightmare. It it actually was um exactly what he needed. And Emerson referred to it as um Oh, they unplugged dad and plugged him back in.

Anna Martin: Wow. It was that effective. Yes,

Anna Martin: that's amazing.

Stephanie Gunning: Pretty much. Yes. I mean, and you know, there there are side effects. There's there's some memory loss. Um, but nothing if you put it on the scale, the benefits are so um so much more significant than any memory lapses or he doesn't really remember the treatment. He doesn't really remember being in the hospital.

Stephanie Gunning: He remembers me coming to visit. Um, I went and uh had dinner with him a couple of times and you would order from this menu and then meals would come on this cart and he had ordered ice cream for dessert and he offered to share his ice cream with me. I remember thinking he wants to share his psychiatric wart ice cream with me [laughter] like who was sweeter than this man and I said no no you eat your whole ice cream that's for you.

Anna Martin: In some way he's back.

Stephanie Gunning: Yes. uh he started to come back in the hospital and he continued with ECT on an outpatient basis after he came home. So he came home after two weeks in the hospital.

Anna Martin: Where were you though?

Stephanie Gunning: Right. So [laughter] So my reckoning finally arrived.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: In early September. Um I really thought I had pulled it off. M I really

Anna Martin: And by the way, can I just say you had in so many ways?

Stephanie Gunning: In many ways, I had.

Anna Martin: You really had. But let's just say, so I'm giving you much credit. You thought you pulled it off.

Stephanie Gunning: I really had thought I pulled it off.

Anna Martin: You didn't even take a single day off work.

Stephanie Gunning: I think I took a few days off from work. [laughter] I do. I took a little time off from work. Um I definitely took time off to go bring Emmy back to school.

Stephanie Gunning: So now it's early September and Jonathan's home and Emy's at school. And so, you know, I'm at work and I I really felt like I did it. You know, I hel I held it all together

Stephanie Gunning: and I received some feedback from people I respect at work that would indicate the contrary.

Stephanie Gunning: And and you know, without without getting too deep into the details, it it really rattled me.

Anna Martin: Sure.

Stephanie Gunning: Because if I wasn't the one who held it all together, number one, who would? And number two, who was I? I and I and I received the feedback with graciousness because feedback is a gift I believe. I sat with it for 24 hours

Stephanie Gunning: and then 24 hours after I had this conversation with these people who I really respected and whose opinion I cared about, I started crying and I couldn't stop.

Stephanie Gunning: I was in the shower and I had I I I never really understood when people talk about like, oh, I had a flashback or oh, I got triggered. You know, we use these words now and it's like I I never really knew what it meant. I mean, I would never doubt anybody's experience, but I also was like I wonder I had lived it. I was like, what's that like? I was in the shower and I got a visceral picture of Jonathan

Stephanie Gunning: on the ward in soft pants and a soft shirt and socks and I started weeping.

Stephanie Gunning: And then I felt like I couldn't stand up anymore. And so I got down on my hands and knees in the shower

Stephanie Gunning: crying

Stephanie Gunning: and I thought to myself, "Oh dear, I I think maybe I'm not okay now." And I screamed for him. And Jonathan came. He's like, "What's happening? What's happening?" And I said to him, "You went to the psych ward." [snorts] It's like it it just hit me.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: And he said, "But I'm here now. I'm here now." I said, "But you went to the psych ward." Like, it it all it was almost as if I wasn't actually living it when I lived it.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: And it all showed up in that moment. So, he helped me out of the shower and he wrapped me in a towel and I was I mean, the physicality of it like I never really understood the physicality of of this kind of a mental health crisis either. I was freezing cold, shaking, nauseous,

Stephanie Gunning: um couldn't get warm.

Stephanie Gunning: Thankfully, you know, I have a doctor who I really trust and um I sent him a note and said, "I I think I might not be all right." And he got back to me immediately. Um he called in a prescription. You know, we we knew how to get to. I was like, should we call the like we both had

Anna Martin: there is a really interesting role reversal here of course with Jonathan comforting you and

Anna Martin: and how did that feel to be on that

Stephanie Gunning: horrifying because this idea of like trusting someone else to take care of me? What do you mean you're going to take care of me? I take care of me and you and you and the dog and everyone at work and the assignment and the clients and the project. Oh, the board at the building also need I will do that. What? Someone in the neighborhood need Yes. And also, yes, I sent in the taxes. [laughter]

Anna Martin: Yeah,

Anna Martin: I did it.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: So, this notion of like it's and it's a control thing, right? Like if I give myself over to you,

Stephanie Gunning: will you do a good job of taking care of me?

Stephanie Gunning: So, that was number one, you know, this fear of like I can I trust and also like are you are you okay? Are you okay?

Anna Martin: Yeah. Are you okay to handle mine not okay?

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah. I was like, do we need like an adjoining room in at NYU? Like what what are we up to at this point?

Anna Martin: Like a couple suite.

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah. Do you have a couple's rate here?

Anna Martin: So funny.

Stephanie Gunning: At NYU Psychiatric. [laughter]

Anna Martin: That's funny. [snorts]

Stephanie Gunning: So I um you know, I spoke with my doctor and he said to me, you must tell them at work you are taking some time.

Anna Martin: Yes.

Stephanie Gunning: And I said, oh no, that no just give me more medicine. And I he said, "No, no, you [snorts] must speak with them." And I said, "No, no, I'm fine." And he said, "No, you you are not. You need to take FMLA, which is Family Medical Leave Act, um, you know, extended protected leave." And I said to this man, while crying, because I still was crying, I just didn't feel so so horribly activated. I said, "No, no, that's for sick people."

Stephanie Gunning: "And he said, "Stephanie, you are sick people." Yeah. I said, "No, no, I'm not sick people." He said, "Yeah, you are." And I I ended up taking 10 weeks. That's I mean, it it does strike me that, you know, we we've spoken about how much your competency, your work defines you.

Anna Martin: So, taking time off is a big deal for you.

Stephanie Gunning: It was the scariest thing I've ever done. M and admitting that you are not okay

Stephanie Gunning: and admitting that you need help and accepting care.

Anna Martin: How did Jonathan step up?

Stephanie Gunning: Well, here's the thing. Beautifully.

Stephanie Gunning: Beautifully.

Stephanie Gunning: Jonathan stepped in with love, with support, and all I wanted to do was sleep and walk the dog.

Stephanie Gunning: I did pretty intensive. somatic trauma reprocessing therapy twice a week, which was exhausting to the point where

Stephanie Gunning: um I would have to lie under a weighted blanket afterwards. Um I went to physical therapy cuz my my body was all screwed up from years of holding myself in real tension. So, you know, I I was really I was on medical leave. It was not a vacation. And Jonathan tended to me

Stephanie Gunning: and I thought it it it's true you came back.

Stephanie Gunning: you you know it's this is the thing that this is the the miracle at the heart of all of it

Stephanie Gunning: that someone kept their promise and and even when I fell apart you know I I it suddenly all of it you know the whole story from that that auditioning to be the girl who wears a bandana as a shirt 20 years ago in the EMS I still can't wear a bandana as a shirt I cannot wear a bandana as one half of a bra at this [laughter] point like not Not only could I be, and this was really me at my worst. I was not good.

Stephanie Gunning: I was not okay. [snorts] I didn't look good. I didn't feel good. He had to remind me to eat. He had to remind me to drink. I mean, the only thing I could reliably do was shower.

Stephanie Gunning: Um, and then I would sleep and he would let me sleep. And

Stephanie Gunning: in that time, you know, in that those 10 weeks when Emerson was at school and it was just the two of us at home, we got well together.

Stephanie Gunning: I don't know how else to say it. We tended to each other. We We took the dog for walks and we took care of each other and we looked out for each other and I let him help me and I let him take care of me. I've never let anyone do that in my whole life. And then it was Thanksgiving

Stephanie Gunning: and we hosted. Wow.

Anna Martin: Yeah,

Anna Martin: you did.

Stephanie Gunning: We did. And well, it's the cheesiest question in the world, but can I ask? You're looking around this Thanksgiving table at Jonathan, at Emmy after getting well with the love of your life.

Anna Martin: What are you thankful for?

Stephanie Gunning: Well, that's the thing. I am thankful to have broken.

Stephanie Gunning: I am thankful to have broken. I am thankful that I could open my teeny tiny Brooklyn apartment to the people who I love so much where literally we were rearranging chairs so that people could go to the bathroom. I mean, it was hilarious.

Stephanie Gunning: And we put on a feast and here we all were. There was no, you know, I I had made such a point my whole life of like Emerson will live in truth.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning: But she wasn't because I was pretending to be okay when I wasn't and Jonathan was pretending to be better than he was.

Stephanie Gunning: And now we live in absolute truth. It was welcome into our home. We have somehow too many and not enough chairs and only one bathroom. The dog is not feeling well and the oven is not big enough to make a whole turkey. So, I only made the breast. But you are welcome here in our real lives with us where there is nothing but love.

Stephanie Gunning: It is not perfect. We are not a Norman Rockwell family. We will never be a Norman Rockwell family. Everyone is on some kind of anti-depressant or anti

Stephanie Gunning: There's Prozac in the line.

Stephanie Gunning: Do you need ADHD medicine? We have that. Do you need anxiety medicine? We have that. Does someone need an anti-depressant? We've got that, too.

Anna Martin: God.

Stephanie Gunning: But having fallen apart, both of us, we there is now I I no longer worry he will someday disappear because I know for a fact without fail, this man will always come home to me. He's not going to leave me. He always comes back.

Anna Martin: I want to return to this image I I love so much, which is this image of the dock.

Stephanie Gunning: Yeah.

Anna Martin: And I wonder after all this, is that still the image for you? Is there a different one? Has the dock changed in any way?

Stephanie Gunning: No, it's still a dock.

Stephanie Gunning: But I feel him beside me now in a way I have never felt him beside me.

Stephanie Gunning: And the dock is there. I mean, it's in it's there and I don't know that. Look, I might get on it one day. I mean, you know, now that I I I have taken a a walk down the dock myself and I did not like it and [snorts] I was really happy to come back. But, you know, once you walk down the dock, the dock doesn't disappear. The dock is always there.

Stephanie Gunning: Um, but for now, today, we're on the ground together. We're not on the dock. We're living we're living our lives. Um, we are on the other side of it. And there's something so liberating about when the worst thing happens

Stephanie Gunning: and you get up and make the coffee, you take the dog for a walk, the worst thing happens and still life goes on and if you are lucky, the ones you love come back.

Anna Martin: Stephanie, thank you so much for this conversation.

Stephanie Gunning: Thank you for having me. I really I'm so honored to to have been invited.

Anna Martin: [music] If you're having thoughts of suicide, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1 800-273 [music] TALK. That's 1800-273-8255 in the US or go to speakingofsuicide.com/resources for a list of additional resources.

Anna Martin: [music] If you want to read Stephanie's modern love essay that inspired our conversation, [music] look for the link in our show notes.

Anna Martin: The Modern Love [music] team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poant, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This [music] episode was produced by Alisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poant.

Anna Martin: Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Alicia Beetup, Rowan Neimisto, Marian Lozano, Pat [music] McCusker, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in [music] our show notes.

Anna Martin: I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.