Hi everyone and welcome to In Good Company. I'm Nicolola Tangan, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund.

And today we have a very special guest, Christelle Edaman, the chief executive of Orange Group.

Now Orange is one of the largest telco companies in Europe and in the world actually with 2190 million customers.

And Crystal is an uh engineer by training, transformative leader, and an avid mountain tracker.

So we're going to learn about a lot of things. Castell, big welcome.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Why is the telecom sector interesting?

Actually, what's interesting is that we are in everybody's life in actually in good moments and and we don't realize it, but we rely on connectivity all the day.

I mean, as companies, are humans, we're always connected.

We look at our phones and so the technology is surrounding us and that's what we do.

So, we are here in the life of the citizens, the people, our families.

And then of course where it's actually more impacting is of course we are here in times in good times the Olympics in Paris for for instance with a great experience where everyone was connected and everyone could see but it's also the case when things go wrong and that's ex I mean you've seen a number of blackouts in countries or when there's extreme events and that's when actually connectivity is more important than ever because you want to reach out to your family.

You want to you want to connect.

So I think the the that's why the telecom sector is so fascinating because we are here people don't realize that there's a lot of technology behind it's simple you turn on your mobile phone and you see the connectivity actually you're not happy when it's not connected actually

people don't realize that there's a lot of technology behind it's simple you turn on your mobile phone and you see the connectivity actually you're not happy when it's not connected actually

absolutely what are the what are the what are the most important trends in this sector just now

well I think this industry went I mean has gone through many cycles of I mean transformation and so of course there's been first the the big mobile adoption I and then the web and the mobile phones and the smartphones and the big data and the streaming of video on our networks which has really changed the profile of the traffic on our networks.

Of course, the big trend these days is the fast adoption of AI.

And the big question is what impact will that have on our networks and what type of traffic what will change?

Will we need uh low latency type of use cases when everyone has glasses?

So, so we're thinking about the the we're very humble because the the the size of the

So, so we're thinking about the the we're very humble because the the the size of the

latency is the speed it takes for

latency because you think of I mean video streaming was really I mean downloading video and there's been a lot of things on our network which actually people don't see but I mean content delivery networks and all that with AI there's going to be a lot of use cases where some use cases will be a lot about security some will be AI at the edge on your mobile phone when you need realtime translation for instance

Some of it will I mean requires actually a lot of compute power in the cloud because you can't distribute it.

So so there's a lot of potential scenarios and we're looking at it.

We've actually created at the GSMA an observatory of AI traffic because what is for sure is that today AI keeps on increasing the the volume of traffic.

You see it with social networks and and I think what's probably the biggest trend is that we are trusted partner for our customers.

It's today the the art of the possible because of AI, the increase of fraud, the fake news, all this debate around am I talking to someone who's a real person when I get a phone call and and and so there's also

It's today the the art of the possible because of AI, the increase of fraud, the fake news, all this debate around am I talking to someone who's a real person when I get a phone call and and and so there's also

you are you are talking to a real person here today.

I am talking to a real person of course.

What are the main challenge? What are the main challenges?

Well, the main challenges in the telecom industry is of course that the value in telecom industry has been huge value creation when mobile adoption was spread out.

Now demography in western world is uh flat if not declining and so there's there's a big question about value creation because we keep it's a capital intensive uh industry and so how do we continue to invest in our networks while creating value in mature markets.

So the big question of course especially in Europe there's going to be more consolidation because especially in Europe the industry is very fragmented and it's a business of scale and

So the big question of course especially in Europe there's going to be more consolidation because especially in Europe the industry is very fragmented and it's a business of scale and

and you you've been vocal about the uh the need for consolidation so the situation now uh each country three players so or roughly 27 countries three players that's a lot of players in America three players in a much bigger country correct and what are the implications of of this

and you you've been vocal about the uh the need for consolidation so the situation now uh each country three players so or roughly 27 countries three players that's a lot of players in America three players in a much bigger country correct and what are the implications of of this

so the implications is that it's a business of scale so if you have 150 50 million customers on a mobile network.

It's not the same or even 500 million as or even 1 billion as China Mobile has in China. It's not the same as if you have 20 million customer as we have as a large operator in most of our countries and even lower in most countries who have less than 5 million.

So, so the cost of running the network per customer is actually more expensive in Europe than it is in other countries.

So that's why we have to consolidate and and

give us give us a feel for the the the difference. So okay I'm a China mobile 1 billion

correct

I'm some kind of da operator in Europe let's say I've got 10 million what's the difference in terms of cost of operation here?

So the difference is ability to invest in your network because for the same number of customer you put on your network.

So of course the the size the geography impacts but in a given city the cost I mean it's procurement because you buy millions of I mean mobile sites when you're China mobile we buy thousands of mobile sites.

So there's just it's not the same order of magnitude and then and then of course so that's the the speed the roll out of 5G for instance is moving much faster in the US or in China than it is in Europe.

the ability to reach the I would say to develop I mean fiber in Europe we have the same debates and that's because the markets are fragmented actually we're not benefiting from these 450 million market size that Europe is and that's not because that's because we just have 27 member states with 27 different markets

the ability to reach the I would say to develop I mean fiber in Europe we have the same debates and that's because the markets are fragmented actually we're not benefiting from these 450 million market size that Europe is and that's not because that's because we just have 27 member states with 27 different markets

and as a as a customer how do I see it

well as a customer you see it because I mean

but do I have do I pay more than

so as a customer actually you pay you don't pay more.

The the consumers in Europe see the benefit if you live in a big city today in Europe and and we have price points especially in this country where today in France I mean France has the cheapest mobile data packages actually in Europe and and probably even cheaper much cheaper than than in US.

So that's very good for consumers.

The challenge is long-term the ability to invest in network and and of course resilience of network is a big is a big question because of extreme events.

I was mentioning it the ability to continue to invest in so so consumer on on a day-to-day basis you may not notice it but for political leaders and we've seen that you see telecom operators selling their networks their fixed network or their mobile networks and then it's a kind of sell and lease back model because of the pressure on their cash flow and the level of depth.

So that's actually for from a consumer standpoint dayto-day you don't see it unless you travel

So that's actually for from a consumer standpoint dayto-day you don't see it unless you travel

which which is also the why they have regulated in this way right.

So the European uh competition regulator has thought that you know we need big competition in every country right you need three players and so therefore you get the prices down but you have no European champion

you need three players and so therefore you get the prices down but you have no European champion

ex exactly and that's what I mean

but you think this will happen

the Mario Draggy report was I think it's going to be very difficult to combine to one single telecom market in Europe for various reasons in this environment you take I mean security I mean depth I mean depth country depth where I mean and spectrum for instance is a big topic

But this is something that the member states will will hardly I mean transfer to the European Union.

That being said, I think as a telecom operator, our job is to be this platform because we operate in many countries in Europe and we can have this platform that helps I would say unify the customer experience and we benefit from the scale actually of being across multiple countries but it's it takes time and for the time being we are so focused on competing in every single market with with frankly deflationary prices many other sectors including utility sector you take energy water, food, everything.

The prices have increased in the past years. That's not the case in telecom.

The prices have increased in the past years. That's not the case in telecom.

So you are, you mentioned platform. You are in a way providing a platform.

You are putting in billions and billions in uh in investments and then hey, social media companies come makes lots of money, much more than you.

Correct.

So do you think this is fair?

Well, I mean

it's a kind of a leading question.

I mean, you know, business is not always fair. So it's

how did you end up in this situation that you are spending so much money and making so little money compared to the these other guys?

Well, I think part of it is because I mean that's the concept of I mean in innovating on top of networks and and we are trying to create this platform that would pre I mean allow us to gain scale but part of it is because we're highly regulated and this regulation is not just about the price and the antitrust.

I'm talking about the regulation.

Even the price of the infrastructure we sell is regulated and there's a whack.

I mean for I mean the whack is in the regulation.

It's not the whack that I that our investors expect and and that we as a company have.

It's something that's there's a parallel world of regulation

It's something that's there's a parallel world of regulation

the cost of capital right

cost of capital that in the in the regulation for infrastructure.

So, so I think the way the regulation today is in our sector is really based on this will to open the telecom market to a lot more competition and and we need to update that.

Now the the OTT player as we call them whether it's a plat video platform, social networks I mean the issue is that somehow they monetize data of customers because there's no free lunch if you have free of charge service there must have a monetization model.

The issue that we see today is that of course their monetization model relies on more traffic on our network because the more traffic they generate the more data they get the more I mean publicity they can make of course for us more traffic on our networks means more investment so so I think that's where we have a challenge and we are trying to fix it and to discuss with them because whether you have

The issue that we see today is that of course their monetization model relies on more traffic on our network because the more traffic they generate the more data they get the more I mean publicity they can make of course for us more traffic on our networks means more investment so so I think that's where we have a challenge and we are trying to fix it and to discuss with them because whether you have

are you going to make uh good returns on your next big investments

well we're trying to reduce investments as a consequence And that's what the telecom industry is going through.

So we are trying to reduce investment and to limit.

Of course, we don't want to to decrease the quality of experience for our customers.

That's a challenge.

Who should bear the cost of an increased quality of video on your mobile phone when it's to serve only some of the social on or video platforms and uh when actually we're just doing our job which is to provide the same quality to everyone.

So there's a lot of debate and and we're trying to innovate in that front.

But so we we are now at 5G.

What is 6G going to look like?

What is 6G going to look like?

Well, I don't think we're going to see 6G.

Actually, I think we're going to see 5.5, 5.6.

So, we're going to move.

Okay.

What is 5.5?

Actually, now 6G upgrade.

That's not We got used to 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G.

We got used to it and and I think now we're in the world of software.

Software is not about big bang hardware renewal, etc.

So, it's going to be progressive upgrade of our existing 5G network that will be software.

So that's why it's going to be a release software and it's going to I don't think I mean of course some people are working on 6G but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Of course, some people are working on 6G but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

So security what how is it security going to change?

Well security I mean we were talking about AI.

I mean I think there's a lot of I mean questions around AI adoption and ethics around AI and and and private data and and for company as well not just for consumers and and I think the question about increase of fraud and and fake news and and and attacks cyber attacks of course we're investing a lot on cyber security to protect our networks to protect our customers and we see I mean the speed at which the the the the threats are increasing is just accelerated as fast as AI is accelerating and that's going to be I mean a request more and more we see that from from our customers and and that's true for for consumers because people are not picking up the phone anymore because they are not sure whether it's fraud or whether it's actually a real number.

I mean I think there's a lot of I mean questions around AI adoption and ethics around AI and and and private data and and for company as well not just for consumers and and I think the question about increase of fraud and and fake news and and and attacks cyber attacks of course we're investing a lot on cyber security to protect our networks to protect our customers and we see I mean the speed at which the the the the threats are increasing is just accelerated as fast as AI is accelerating and that's going to be I mean a request more and more we see that from from our customers and and that's true for for consumers because people are not picking up the phone anymore because they are not sure whether it's fraud or whether it's actually a real number.

How often do you look at your telephone?

How often do you look at your telephone?

Way too often actually.

Even though I tell I tell my kids not to uh I can I mean in meetings it's uh I don't know some depend if I get bored in a meeting then I know if I'm looking too much my phone I know I should move to something else.

Even though I tell I tell my kids not to uh I can I mean in meetings it's uh I don't know some depend if I get bored in a meeting then I know if I'm looking too much my phone I know I should move to something else.

Do you have do you have digital detox periods?

Actually given I have kids that are still young. They are my detox because when I go back home in the evening they want me to read them a story and they don't care whether I've had a good day or a bad day.

I still have to work.

So that's my detox.

So that's my detox.

That's good.

Um just coming back to the uh the security and so on. Um how should we think about supply chains?

So for instance, um Chinese uh providers of infrastructure.

Well, I think supply chain are really interconnected these days and and and we've seen that during COVID and and we see that today the technology and of course we follow the rules when in some countries where I mean we are we are instructed not to use some vendors and that's especially true for 5G for instance uh Chinese vendors for 5G in in Europe.

That being said, when we see the speed of innovation in China, uh we we work as well with Chinese vendors of course more in Africa than than than in Europe.

U what's difficult is that of course I mean Chinese vendors or European vendors when it when there's scarcity and we've seen that with all the supply chain disruption.

I mean whether it's a chipset, whether it's energy actually which is a big big important item for for the continuity of our activity.

uh of course uh all the equipment the the devices of we don't like to have one source one vendor so we tend to have this policy where we of course want to rely and and diversify our sources but in some areas it's very difficult and and mobile network is an example where there's I mean China vendor or two European vendors but

uh of course uh all the equipment the the devices of we don't like to have one source one vendor so we tend to have this policy where we of course want to rely and and diversify our sources but in some areas it's very difficult and and mobile network is an example where there's I mean China vendor or two European vendors but

if you if you just look at the technology how does the Chinese uh technology compare with European and American

well I mean

is it better or worse or I've worked 15 years at Alcatel Lucen.

So I've seen the Chinese vendors growing.

It's actually cheaper.

I mean the the more advanced more more efficient from an energy standpoint.

So it's actually very good technology.

I don't think European vendors are far behind but they actually not benefiting from the size and the investment that Chinese operators make in China.

And so Chinese technology when it comes to mobile network are very good.

And so Chinese technology when it comes to mobile network are very good.

How safe is my communication?

depends what's your routine.

Make sure you upload make sure you update your OS on your phone whenever there's one new because most of the I mean there's a lot of training we have to do and that's true for lead company leaders that's true for individuals but there's a reason why you get a node for whether you are on on the Apple environment or Android environment but there's a lot of investment from tech companies on on security I mean on protecting consumers and so make sure that you update it whenever there's a new OS coming on your phone because most of the time is to to fix a security issue.

Make sure you upload make sure you update your OS on your phone whenever there's one new because most of the I mean there's a lot of training we have to do and that's true for lead company leaders that's true for individuals but there's a reason why you get a node for whether you are on on the Apple environment or Android environment but there's a lot of investment from tech companies on on security I mean on protecting consumers and so make sure that you update it whenever there's a new OS coming on your phone because most of the time is to to fix a security issue.

What do you put in the expression digital sovereignity?

Well, digital sovereignty is is complex because the reality is that it should not be understood as let's close the border.

And if we think about Europe, digital sovereignty for Europe, Europe relies a lot on technology that comes, we were discussing China, but of course US technology, chipsets coming from Asia as well, devices, I mean mobile devices coming from Asia as well.

So I think digital sovereignty the the way we call it is restrategic autonomy we've defined it at orange on four C one being the control be understand your supply chain understand try to avoid having I mean single vendor type of environment choice I think choice is both having many options but it's also reversibility and there's a there's a lot of question behind I mean can you move backward in case you want to change not easy with many technology if we think about cloud than all the AI or AI tools.

So I think digital sovereignty the the way we call it is restrategic autonomy we've defined it at orange on four C one being the control be understand your supply chain understand try to avoid having I mean single vendor type of environment choice I think choice is both having many options but it's also reversibility and there's a there's a lot of question behind I mean can you move backward in case you want to change not easy with many technology if we think about cloud than all the AI or AI tools.

So I think digital sovereignty the the way we call it is restrategic autonomy we've defined it at orange on four C one being the control be understand your supply chain understand try to avoid having I mean single vendor type of environment choice I think choice is both having many options but it's also reversibility and there's a there's a lot of question behind I mean can you move backward in case you want to change not easy with many technology if we think about cloud than all the AI or AI tools.

So, uh, choice, control, competence because I think many very often and that's true in Europe, but that's also true when I talk to to country heads in Africa for instance, having the competence and the skills and the knowhow to be able to understand just to understand what's your where what are your weaknesses and how should you use the technology that's also part of strategic autonomy, the skill set.

And then of course uh the the the fourth one is uh is really the scale.

So it's um uh making sure that you get uh you you benefit from the scale and that's where Europe is is somehow uh at at at a difficult situation because of the fragmented environment in Europe.

Do you have uh a responsibility to uh try to close the digital divide i.e. that uh poor people have less access to um to to your services than um than more wealthy people like across across the world.

Is that is that part of your responsibility you think or or are you only about making profits?

Is that is that part of your responsibility you think or or are you only about making profits?

No, that's very important for us and we operate in countries in Africa where actually when when we bring connectivity to some people, we bring energy together.

So we we we enable people to grow and to study and then to have a job and then to connect to the world and so so that's really deep in our conviction and that's why we are we are really I mean in in Africa especially that's true in in Europe as well but to some extent the level of connectivity in Europe is much ahead of course what we see in other parts of the world.

So that's that's always been very deep in our in our values to make sure that we we we reduce the gap.

So that's that's always been very deep in our in our values to make sure that we we we reduce the gap.

Crystal, let's move on to artificial intelligence.

What part of AI are you the most excited about?

Well, I think what's the most exciting with AI is the speed of innovation.

And what is really exciting is that AI will enable also to accelerate innovation in in other sciences.

and and so connecting I mean some science verticals to I mean you think of healthcare drug discovery you think I mean science in in physics uh being able to to use AI to have twins for cells I mean the the exponential and the more we think of it the more we have ideas of things that could accelerate so to some extent it can be also a bit scary because we feel that we we may lose control but really it's exciting ing to to to see how AI may may allow us to address issues that really we thought were not possible.

I mean to have I mean new new drugs I mean to be a to address we think of course of resources being able to create new materials thanks to to physics.

So so that's of course outside the I mean the telecom industry but that's really if we think about the possible that's just fascinating.

So so that's of course outside the I mean the telecom industry but that's really if we think about the possible that's just fascinating.

When did you get this wakeup moment?

Well, I think I keep having it.

Every time I talk to companies who innovate with AI, I'm still as amazed as I was two years ago. First time I saw how fast I mean OpenAI tragy was adopted and every time I see a new field and I'm still amazed at how it seem it's it even seems that it keeps accelerating.

Every time I talk to companies who innovate with AI, I'm still as amazed as I was two years ago. First time I saw how fast I mean OpenAI tragy was adopted and every time I see a new field and I'm still amazed at how it seem it's it even seems that it keeps accelerating.

Do you think people generally have realized what's going on?

I think on one side there's been there's been a lot of debates and there are a lot of debates especially in Europe we've been debating regulation.

We had the AI summit in Paris hosted by by France and India and there was a lot of debate.

So so people talk about I think I mean you talk to young people they use AI all the time.

So so they're already into it but they don't use it with the I mean it's just to to to manage knowledge somehow.

I think the more we think of it, I don't think most people realize on one side, especially in Europe, I mean, we need to be humble.

We need to learn.

We need to adopt AI because I think what would be, I mean, an issue for Europe would be to stay behind and to wait and see until it's actually too late because time is really accelerating.

So and and speed is not something where we tend to be good at in Europe because of I mean the political environment the regulation etc.

And so I think it's our role as company leaders to work with of course our suppliers as well to make sure that we really adopt AI as fast as possible.

There's a lot of question on ethics and which we have to address but

There's a lot of question on ethics and which we have to address but

how is it changing u orange the way you work?

Well, the way we work, we've developed, I mean, we've provided tools to employees.

We have 70,000 employees who use it every day.

So, that's more daytoday management, testing it.

And then, of course, we're developing I mean, now there's this agent AI, agentic AI, which job we're trying to I mean, we're testing it.

I think what's very interesting is that AI will be a technology very decentralized.

So you need to define of course some very strong fundamentals platforms and protecting the company but then you need to put the technology in the hands of of managers because that's where the transformation happens and and it's not something that we can decide in a in a in a headquarter or in a in a meeting room and then decide that we're going to we're going to spread.

So I think there's a lot of thing very interesting with AI and and we see it whether it's in finance, in HR, in sales, in customer support of course big big time for customer support.

Uh now it takes time as well to roll out at scale because it's I mean it addresses things that we all know I mean quality of data and then making sure you cut the silos that you may have in your technical depth etc.

So there's a lot of things that we were working on already before that just keep on being visible with with AI adoption.

So there's a lot of things that we were working on already before that just keep on being visible with with AI adoption.

M I believe that earlier this year you demonstrated the world's first uh real-time conversation using generative AI um enhanced by 5G. So what is that?

Well, we have this demo at Mobile World Congress where actually if you want to have real time translation and what's interesting with AI is that voice will be a I mean in many actually will be a new interface.

It's going to some of it will be back to voice in the way we interact with our mobile phone because if you don't I mean it's going to simplify the interface with machine and so voice will be a new human machine interface uh not new on the mobile phone of course but it's going to be new in many other devices and so it's very exciting because our industry comes from this voice interaction we've moved to data now everything is IP etc but voice will be important the latency that we require to have this type of conversation between humans is a very low latency.

You you feel it immediately if it's not the latency that's required for voice and that's actually that puts that puts challenge on our networks if you really want to have that experience with an AI translator for instance or with a an AI agent and and getting this voice experience.

Now if the agent is on your mobile phone latency can be managed.

I mean assuming you have the right compute power in your mobile phone.

So, so there's a lot of technology challenges behind but but this experience of voice in in the tech world is really different from this best effort environment which we've built with data and IP and video so far.

So, so there's a lot of technology challenges behind but but this experience of voice in in the tech world is really different from this best effort environment which we've built with data and IP and video so far.

So if we now now if you speak French and I speak Norwegian um what would that conversation look like if we had uh live translation?

What kind of late what kind of delays would there be?

Well, that should be the objective to have a natural conversation.

Yeah.

With people using their natural language.

And when will we have that?

Uh well, that's I mean today the technology is not at the right uh level.

uh or today the technology starts from voice translates with text translate to so you have voice text text voice to for that to happen you need voice really a voice uh type of uh of direct interface to get the low latency uh so there's I mean you have some experience but to get it at scale on our networks it's going to it's going to take uh it's going to take a few years but it's not decades it's really

uh or today the technology starts from voice translates with text translate to so you have voice text text voice to for that to happen you need voice really a voice uh type of uh of direct interface to get the low latency uh so there's I mean you have some experience but to get it at scale on our networks it's going to it's going to take uh it's going to take a few years but it's not decades it's really

uh or today the technology starts from voice translates with text translate to so you have voice text text voice to for that to happen you need voice really a voice uh type of uh of direct interface to get the low latency uh so there's I mean you have some experience but to get it at scale on our networks it's going to it's going to take uh it's going to take a few years but it's not decades it's really

it'd be cool

I think for Europe Europe if you think of it I mean the US or the China market they benefit from one language one of the issue in Europe issue strength let's put it that way the diversity of languages and culture if AI could help reduce the barriers and uh between people that would be cool now I don't think we should stop studying languages because it's also studying cultures and understanding each other

I think for Europe Europe if you think of it I mean the US or the China market they benefit from one language one of the issue in Europe issue strength let's put it that way the diversity of languages and culture if AI could help reduce the barriers and uh between people that would be cool now I don't think we should stop studying languages because it's also studying cultures and understanding each other

I think for Europe Europe if you think of it I mean the US or the China market they benefit from one language one of the issue in Europe issue strength let's put it that way the diversity of languages and culture if AI could help reduce the barriers and uh between people that would be cool now I don't think we should stop studying languages because it's also studying cultures and understanding each other

yeah well you are in a way multicultural right

married to a German and uh raising children with a lot of languages so you know all about

Um, moving on now.

Um, what kind of things should a comp a telecom company do?

I mean, you're into money.

where where what's core? What's not core?

Well, that's a that's a good question because we've tried to diversify.

I think all telecom operators have tried to diversify sometime unsuccessfully.

For us, I mean, we we tried to create a bank and and we decided to to move away from it.

The real question is what do your customers expect you to to to provide to them.

A lot of people I mean come to a lot of companies come to us and they see the power of having the customer base.

We have the network that so as a distributor of technology we actually do a lot of things and and and that doesn't mean you need to do it yourself which was the case in in terms of creating the bank.

So you can be a distributor.

Of course, cyber security is something that is an adjacency which we've developed and makes a lot of sense because we want to be a trusted partner and I think the more we progress the more AI is rolled out this notion of trust in our relationship with customers with I mean governments is going to be very important with companies as well.

So we want to really put trust at the heart of everything we do which is which means that you can actually add a lot of adjacencies behind this concept of of trust because I mean we we do I mean infrastructure for instance for us infrastructure is of course something that we use for for for our networks but but think of it we have submarine cables we have vessels to repair submarine cables and and we consider that this is part of of our business line around valuing infrastructure which which we think many telos have moved away because they had to we think that's a fundamental value that's that's in the company to to be in this infrastructure layer when it comes to services I was saying cyber security but we are we are reselling or or or innovating with many type of services in so we home security also we do that uh in France in Spain uh we are reselling energy in some countries sometimes successfully sometime unsuccessfully but in any case insurance is something we do as well.

So we want to really put trust at the heart of everything we do which is which means that you can actually add a lot of adjacencies behind this concept of of trust because I mean we we do I mean infrastructure for instance for us infrastructure is of course something that we use for for for our networks but but think of it we have submarine cables we have vessels to repair submarine cables and and we consider that this is part of of our business line around valuing infrastructure which which we think many telos have moved away because they had to we think that's a fundamental value that's that's in the company to to be in this infrastructure layer when it comes to services I was saying cyber security but we are we are reselling or or or innovating with many type of services in so we home security also we do that uh in France in Spain uh we are reselling energy in some countries sometimes successfully sometime unsuccessfully but in any case insurance is something we do as well.

In any case, the diversification of services remains something that has not been and I think even the telos who have been the most advanced it it limits to 10% of our total uh total turnover.

So now in the B2B space for instance cloud AI cyber security for sure are big diversification that we've made and that we will continue to invest on compared to the traditional connectivity.

Of course,

Of course,

you have a technical background and spent time at uh Boston Consulting Group, Alcatalusent uh and Schneider.

How do you think that background uh is forming how you think about strategy?

Well, I think that I mean I I don't I don't go deep in understanding the technology, but being able to to ask question to engineers to really and I like to to understand some of the technical challenge we have and and and so being able to to dive I mean we could talk about quantum for instance.

I mean I stud I studied quantum physics when I was at school.

I find it fascinating some of the things that are behind this disruption technology disruption with with quantum.

So being able to to to understand some of those challenges and I think we live in a world where technology is everywhere and disruption has come as much from great customer experience as from deep technology I mean the disruption.

uh so I think my engineering background is really trying to understand in a more systemic approach the impact of technology never I mean technology sometime we we technology can be seen as a as a we are technology pushers instead of being a solution or or problem fixers and and I think that's the challenge of of engineers that sometime we we we love to build very complex solution to a problem that may not exist so so that's where my engineer background is also So very balanced by my very pragmatic

uh so I think my engineering background is really trying to understand in a more systemic approach the impact of technology never I mean technology sometime we we technology can be seen as a as a we are technology pushers instead of being a solution or or problem fixers and and I think that's the challenge of of engineers that sometime we we we love to build very complex solution to a problem that may not exist so so that's where my engineer background is also So very balanced by my very pragmatic

leadership style which is okay this is way too complex explain to me very simply what's the problem we're trying to fix.

So and I think you need to to both when you run a big company but being able to go deep and really spending time with engineers and is also fascinating especially in a in a company that invests so much in technology.

So and I think you need to to both when you run a big company but being able to go deep and really spending time with engineers and is also fascinating especially in a in a company that invests so much in technology.

Tell me a bit more about your leadership style.

Well, I'm um I'm someone pretty direct, so I I I I don't like to waste time in meetings when people try to not say things or when we don't put the real issues on the table.

Uh but I'm a very energetic person and I think uh I've had that I've learned that from one of CEOs I work for in in the past who was saying, you know, in companies you have energy givers and energy takers.

I'm definitely an energy giver and I think to run a company of the size of orange and to make sure that people get excited by indeed I mean hiking mountains addressing challenging winning together I think this positive mindset of I mean providing energy to everyone to accomplish big challenges I think is fantastic to move

well you know CEO stands for chief energy officer

chief energy officer

yeah where does your energy come from what what is energy

well for me you know I wake up every morning and I'm like happy actually the more challenges we face

it's not that the more excited because frankly speaking managing crisis is not something that's exciting but but somehow

I get excited by challenges and the bigger the challenges the more excited I am and it's it comes from I think I've had I mean part of it is I was lucky and I was born under the the right star I guess but but part of it is because I've seen the power of winning with teams and I've seen that when I was an account manager and winning a deal where everyone thinks you're going to lose a deal and then suddenly you see this pride and the the the the spirit of and so this winning mindset is extremely powerful to to climb mountains and I think

I get excited by challenges and the bigger the challenges the more excited I am and it's it comes from I think I've had I mean part of it is I was lucky and I was born under the the right star I guess but but part of it is because I've seen the power of winning with teams and I've seen that when I was an account manager and winning a deal where everyone thinks you're going to lose a deal and then suddenly you see this pride and the the the the spirit of and so this winning mindset is extremely powerful to to climb mountains and I think

who do you trying to show who do you want to prove

nobody myself

no parents or

no of course I mean I think my parents are very proud of where I am today and so I don't think they I don't think they really they still struggle to understand what is it like your gender you know they my My mother was a professor in university so she understands what it is but going from meetings to meetings not really understanding what I do in meetings is something a bit weird but of course no I want to be I mean I'm more excited by the impact I can have on the the people I work with and and and that's why this winning spirit and you know showing to people that sometime people feel that things are impossible and then they realize that actually with hard work teamwork things are possible.

no of course I mean I think my parents are very proud of where I am today and so I don't think they I don't think they really they still struggle to understand what is it like your gender you know they my My mother was a professor in university so she understands what it is but going from meetings to meetings not really understanding what I do in meetings is something a bit weird but of course no I want to be I mean I'm more excited by the impact I can have on the the people I work with and and and that's why this winning spirit and you know showing to people that sometime people feel that things are impossible and then they realize that actually with hard work teamwork things are possible.

Did you do competitive sport?

Not at all.

No.

I was dancing, I'm running, and I'm swimming.

So, I'm not I I'm But I have this very competitive mindset where I like to win.

And where does it come from?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Maybe because I was the elder sister and I have two twin sisters who push me, you know, I had to to fight at home.

So maybe that's where.

How has your leadership style changed with with age and experience?

I think I'm still genuine.

I mean some of it of course experience is that I go faster to to to addressing issues you know when when you're when I was a younger leader I would sometime you know say look I mean politics there are things you can say things you cannot say etc and now I've learned that I mean time is really the scarce resource in my job and so making sure that every time I see a small issue I address it with can be even people relationship in in my team or with with people I work with.

And so I'd rather pick up the phone and say, "Look, is there an issue here?"

And sometime you realize there's a big issue that people are trying to hide and so you can address it.

Uh so I think being uh being probably more direct and and addressing things uh more openly is even more present now than it was when I was a young leader trying to figure out what are the things you can say, you cannot say.

Uh so I think being uh being probably more direct and and addressing things uh more openly is even more present now than it was when I was a young leader trying to figure out what are the things you can say, you cannot say.

Are people generally direct in Orange with a feedback?

I think they were not.

And actually we had our leadership meeting where we gather a lot of I mean all our leaders in the company and I've been very explicit with them that I want people to come to me with don't tell me what you think I want to hear and when I say something I expect you to say I disagree because we need to have debates.

And actually we had our leadership meeting where we gather a lot of I mean all our leaders in the company and I've been very explicit with them that I want people to come to me with don't tell me what you think I want to hear and when I say something I expect you to say I disagree because we need to have debates.

How long time does it take to get that type of attitude into a company?

Oh years.

I mean culture is something that we're working on but it takes years to change a company culture.

And and and by the way, it starts from the top.

Oh, totally.

What part of the orange culture are you try are you still trying to change?

Well, I think you know, we've we've defined our company values and there there are there's one that's very important which is boldness.

And I think as a company we we're very good at managing risk and but this boldness and and which means willing to test, willing to learn from failures, accepting failures and speaking about failures.

We tend to have a culture where we talk a lot about the things that work well

but we don't talk about the things that do not work and and and that's my direct style but also making sure companies grow only you learn more from actually failures and mistakes than from things that work well because sometime you're just lucky and things go well but actually you can learn a lot more from failures.

but we don't talk about the things that do not work and and and that's my direct style but also making sure companies grow only you learn more from actually failures and mistakes than from things that work well because sometime you're just lucky and things go well but actually you can learn a lot more from failures.

Do you have a system in terms of how you prioritize your time?

Well, I'm not sure I'm I'm a master at that.

I'm still working on it because time is really the challenge.

But yeah, I have a I have a system.

I try to all the Fridays in my agenda are free up from meetings until the week starts and then I can add the but Friday is the day when I like to think do things that can be so can be urgent things or can be thinking and and and planning and and stepping back and and meeting with people that may not be directly in the in the agenda.

I try to all the Fridays in my agenda are free up from meetings until the week starts and then I can add the but Friday is the day when I like to think do things that can be so can be urgent things or can be thinking and and and planning and and stepping back and and meeting with people that may not be directly in the in the agenda.

And are you in the office every day?

I I mean I travel because I like to go in the field but otherwise yeah I'm in the office I don't work from home

in terms of this direct feedback and so on you have a uh the state has a stake in you right

the French government owns 23% yeah

do you think that impacts your corporate culture are you a bit of a stateowned type of thing

I mean of course historically we still have civil servants at orange

and so part of the culture in France or in some other countries where we were incumbent is coming from this administration mindset

now a lot of people came in the company long after but definitely in the company culture there's part of it which is I mean coming from the administration world

and how do you change that part of it

well that's all the things we're doing which is there are good things that come with this so we we're trying to keep what what is good because I mean what is good what is good

well that's all the things we're doing which is there are good things that come with this so we we're trying to keep what what is good because I mean what is good what is good

well the good thing is that this deep I mean willingness to serve customers and and and you know people when there's a storm and the network is down people don't count their hours they just go in the field And we had this this big uh big storm in Mayot where the network was completely crashed and we had people who lost their house still the employ the I mean our colleagues were coming to work repairing the network even though they had lost their house.

well the good thing is that this deep I mean willingness to serve customers and and and you know people when there's a storm and the network is down people don't count their hours they just go in the field And we had this this big uh big storm in Mayot where the network was completely crashed and we had people who lost their house still the employ the I mean our colleagues were coming to work repairing the network even though they had lost their house.

So that's really deep in our in our in our and that may come from this civil servant culture even though it were not coming from the administration in every country.

So that's very powerful.

Of course, some of the things which are maybe more I mean you take I mean leadership development, talent talent uh development.

I don't think administrations are are they tend to manage people more equally and I think that's some of the things we're we're we're addressing.

I don't think administrations are are they tend to manage people more equally and I think that's some of the things we're we're we're addressing.

What's the best carrier advice you ever got?

Uh actually I've had a lot and I did not follow all of them because I tend to No.

And and I've worked with a lot of great

CEOs. What's the ones you haven't followed which you are glad you didn't follow?

Uh you know I've had a lot of advice actually I had one advice which was don't join the orange board of directors because I had proposal to join two boards.

I would not be the sea of orange today if I had not jo.

So I did not follow that advice which was

So I did not follow that advice which was

But you were on the board for five years before.

I was on the board for five years and uh and and and I and my instinct was I should join this orange board because I've been in the telecom industry for 15 years.

So I'm going to bring value as as a board uh as a director on the board.

But I mean that's one one example.

But but I think sometime I've had advice on uh don't take that job too risky.

And actually I'm like, well maybe if it's risky that means okay I can fail but I'm going to learn and if I succeed then I'll be more visible because guess what nobody would expect me to to succeed.

So

and where do you get that risk appetite from?

I think and that's something I tell I mean when people ask me advice in for young people I don't like to get bored.

So every time there's new technology crisis, not that much, but I mean new challenge to to overcome or new project to win, I like this idea that we're going to learn together and do great things together.

And I've had that I mean again this is this this winning mindset which is it's much better to win big things than just to win small things.

And I don't like to get bored.

So when I feel I'm not learning, which I'm not bored these days.

We learn, we learn every day is bringing new things.

But but in my

and if you were to turn this around and actually uh make this internet advice for young people, which we all always do at the end of this podcast, what would you tell them?

Uh it's really if you go to work and you feel you're getting bored, I mean have the courage to to to move on and move out of your comfort zone.

And of course being bored sometime is good because that means you're you also you have some time.

But but if you get bored and you just go to work thinking well I just go to work.

I mean when people are young I mean they have their entire life to to to accomplish.

Life life is always too short actually.

So don't get bored.

I mean knock on the doors of other people or talk to your managers.

In my case when I was getting bored in my jobs I've always I went to my manager and say well I think I'm not learning anymore.

What can I do more?

which doesn't mean changing job but at least making sure you you you ask for it.

Well, Crystal, uh life is short. Uh time is uh scarcity and we are really happy that you spent some time with us.

We've learned so much.

Big thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for the time.

Thank you.