Nicolai Tangen: Hi everyone, I'm Nicolola Tangan, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund and today I'm joined by Shria Ramaswami, the CEO of Snowflake. Snowflake is basically the data platform that many of the world's biggest companies run on. So when your bank approves a loan or when a hospital pulls together patient data, Snowflake is often the engine underneath. Shrida spent 15 years at Google where he built the advertising business from one and a half billion to over hundred billion dollars. Then he walked away to start his own company and two years later he became the CEO of Snowflake. Now here at MBIM we are investors in Snowflake and we are also big users of the product. We have two pabytes of data in Snowflake which is the equivalent of 2 million gigabytes and we have roughly 3 million queries into the database every day. So big welcome Shrar.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Thank you Nikolai. Happy to be here. excited for the conversation.

Nicolai Tangen: First of all, um, how would you describe Snowflake to somebody who's never heard of it in brief?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Yeah, we are we are a data platform. We are like a cloud computing platform like an AWS, but with a strong focus on data. We help you do everything from bring in data from various different systems, analyze it, get insights from it, um, and then, uh, take it to the systems where you take action. So, we are an analytic data platform.

Nicolai Tangen: Who are your clients?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Gosh. Uh half the uh global 2000 companies that are addressable uh that is non-China companies are our customers u hundreds and hundreds of uh customers in financial services uh healthcare advertising uh industries the list goes on and on and uh we are uh we operate out of more than 25 countries and have customers in way more than those.

Nicolai Tangen: when when the company was founded in uh 2012 uh to separate storage from compute was was pretty radical, right? Just tell us about it.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: The simplest way to internalize that really important concept is to think about how you and I have always bought or used computers. I tell people for the past 50 years um whenever you and I wanted computing or our company we would go buy a box and that box would have a fixed amount of storage a fixed amount of compute and a fixed amount of memory and you're generally stuck with that box for I don't know 5 years. So if you decided that you wanted more memory uh well too bad you wait. If you decided that you bought too much compute, too much CPU power, well that's too bad. You already bought the machine. And so that's at the essence of it. By the way, your phone is another box, just a littleer box.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: And so, and it was also really hard to move data from one box to another. That was an integration project. Snowflake radicalized things uh by sitting on top of cloud computing, which effectively are infinitely large databases with amazing amounts of compute that can be shared um between different customers that operate there.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: And we separated out compute and storage. So we said you can use exactly the amount of storage that you want and the compute that you want if you want to do like a deep analytic job because one of the people within uh um NBIM came up with like this brilliant idea for investing that required you to go through every piece of historical information. You can spin up a thousand computers over one weekend do the analysis shut them down and then figure out how to implement that in practice. That's the magic of Snowflake's model.

Nicolai Tangen: Most software companies charge per seat but you charge for what people actually consume. Why? Why is that better?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Because it is aligned value creation. Part of the benefit that uh we have is um we are very good at predicting demand because we have over 13,000 customers and uh so we are able to amatize spiky demand ourselves uh and offer you a more stable model that does not require you to make a commitment that you're going to use a certain amount of storage or a certain number of CPUs on an ongoing basis. And uh this in turn means that you spin up things as you need them.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Most analytic jobs tend to be bursty and as you know the dayight variations even in transactional jobs is very high. People just are not doing as many banking transactions in the night and so there are all of these well-known patterns. Uh what we are able to do with a consumption model is offer an incredibly effective price because we are able to amortize that and it also makes the company super value aligned. You pay for we recognize revenue when you and your team use Snowflake and uh we'll come to this in the world of AI that's a big deal because you only pay for what you use.

Nicolai Tangen: Absolutely. Trina, why do you now consider uh the likes of Entropic and so on your competitors?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Because they're changing software as we know it. I think what is uh very very clear uh to many of us working deeply in the software industry is that the cost economics of software are dramatically changing. And uh I would separate that out clearly from near-term concerns about costs of AI models and things like that. The reality is that software has always been a little bit of a craft for the past 50 years. Special people that are doing incredible amounts of work in order to produce software. Hard to build, hard to integrate. Um you should think of these like the best programmers are like concert pianists. There's no way to mint them. It's you spend the 10,000 hours and you have that special genius in your head and that's how you become an amazing musician.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Software engineers have been like that. But what these models represent with software is the industrialization of software at a scale that we have not seen before. And u that is the primary reason why I consider um the model companies things like the coding agents that they are creating um to be our uh biggest competition. This is the reason why we have a coding agent. They represent the front door to computing, the front door to all information more and more for everybody. Starts with software engineers, but it goes to more.

Nicolai Tangen: Absolutely. What about the likes of Amazon and Microsoft who also have competing products?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Yeah. You know, with all due respect to them um when it comes to pure data platforms, we have always been top of the charts when it comes to that. uh companies that operate at that scale should never be underestimated because they are able to bring on just incredible resources to solve problems. Uh but from what I see, I think of uh coding agents as the biggest threat to all software and uh figuring out a path for snowflake that is going to survive and thrive in this world is my number one challenge.

Nicolai Tangen: M m um continuing on on AI um in what ways are you benefiting from um from this revolution?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: I take a reductive uh approach when it comes to AI and uh a software company like Snowflake. You know, at our core, we do two things. We create and run great software. This is what my engineering team does. We sell and help customers um like you implement our software. So, a lot of our energy is focused very much on how do we make this go faster.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: On the sales side, our uh sellers now have tools that give them instant access to information. It's a sales agent that sits in their phone. Our solution engineers can do a custom demo for Nicola in 30 minutes that has data that will look like it came from your bank. Their ability to use these tools, drive outcomes for you is incredible.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: And then on the software engineering side, coding is being revolutionized. Um I just came from a meeting where we are talking about how we need to get more people into specdriven coding development. Um which is you write an English language spec for what it is that you want to produce and then you automate the entire rest of the process of writing the first version of the code and testing it and deploying it and uh and so on. And so software engineer is software engineering is nothing like what it was two years ago. How to get every engineer in your team to act like that to internalize these great possibilities is the biggest challenge that we have. But we have the superstars, people that are 50, 100 times more productive than the average software institute.

Nicolai Tangen: How do large enterprises now change uh the data states on the back of AI?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: So two things first of all AI makes the data that you have a lot more accessible. This is what products like snowflake intelligence do. It is roughly an agentic interface to your data where you can say how are my biggest investments doing? This investment seems to have gone down a little bit. Break it down for me. Um is it because of the sector? Is it some other problem? All of those questions that required analysts to perform on your behalf right now at your fingertips. And what this also means that how work should be done in the future is also going to get dramatically changed because of this fast programmable access almost to the data. M

Sridhar Ramaswamy: the second way in which a lot of our customers are benefiting is because of things like native coding agents. Uh it's not often that I go to my customer and say I can make something that you have to do every day go 10 times or 20 times faster. That's where you what we are doing with internal teams and that's the value that we take to them. So both the builders and the consumers of data within a company have massive benefits thanks to AI.

Nicolai Tangen: Now we have something called an MCP which connects us to you guys. Could you just explain in short to the listeners what an what an MCP is?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Yeah, you should roughly think of that as uh it stands for model control protocol. It is just a way for uh a language model or a coding agent to be able to talk to a data source. And um what we like our customers to do is use our products like Snowflake intelligence that natively expose the data but we're also all about being interoperable working with the things that uh you folks have. So every agent that is created in Snowflake can be called remotely from some front door that um you know that you have and that's what MCP is. It is an interoperability layer.

Nicolai Tangen: How will agents uh change the way you work?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: This is a big question and the word agents themselves itself is a little bit uh misunderstood. Uh the way you should think about agents is um it is a model and a piece of code that has access to different kinds of uh tools underneath and um it knows how to call them smartly. So for example, if you ask it a question and say write a little program for me, um it knows how to create a file, write some code into it and then call something locally to execute that piece of code. But exactly the same thing can be used if you say I want to know how my portfolio is doing. It knows how to call the portfolio tool, analyze it and give you back the result.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: And so agents are changing work at every level. Even though you tend to hear most about things like coding agents, but the general concept is very powerful. These coding agents are effectively abstraction agents. So even somebody that never wants to write a line of code is going to benefit enormously from having their basic functionality, access to all of your documents, access to the structured data that is in Snowflake. If I give you for example Snowflake Intelligence access to all of it, practically any question that you would want to ask of the data, the agent can come up with a plan and help you execute. That's why there's so much excitement about things like the work concept, cloud co-work, or snowwork because they're changing how people think about work. Everything is programmable and also everything is interconnected. If you want to send an email based on an analysis you did, you don't have to cut and paste. You can just tell your agent, please send this email to Stefan and out goes the email.

Nicolai Tangen: Absolutely. Now, uh I'll tell you one thing. We spent years cleaning up our data and it's not uh it's not a fun job. Um now when you look at data, it's messy, duplicates, gaps, decades of legacy systems stitched together. Just what kind of barrier is that to the usage of AI and to the usage of your product?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Used to be a huge barrier to getting value from data. I think it is getting simpler by the day. That's the magic of uh coding agents applied to the data problem itself. Used to be that changing a pipeline um for just adding one additional column of information in a complex data set that would easily be a week-long job for some poor programmer that had to toile through all of the details. We now have uh things like skills which you can think of as English language programs that automate that entire process from start to finish so that they can start it and they can come back in an hour and just ensure that everything has been taken care of.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: We are working on things like agent-driven migrations where you can move data from legacy systems onto snowflake in a matter of days and small number of weeks as opposed to the multiple quarters in the multiple years that it used to take and u AI can be very very powerful in the data modernization uh journey overall and it's an area that we are very heavily invested into.

Nicolai Tangen: I wish we had it five years ago, but uh hey um what about uh what about GDPR? How is that uh holding back usage i.e. the personal data protection laws?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Well, part of Snowflake's benefit is that we offer excellent governance features. It is a burden for uh companies to make sure that uh they comply. You know, I'm American and uh everyone criticizes GDPR um and it has had some unintended consequences. Uh but there are also many aspects of GDPR that were genuinely forward-looking.

Nicolai Tangen: Is GDPR good or bad for Europe?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: I think it's a very mixed bag. I think it had a lot of unintended consequences and it al it also tells you how regulation needs to be very surgical about uh what it does and people really need to think very hard. What are the unintended negative consequences?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Yeah, I I'll I'll tell you the positive things first. The fact that you as a consumer can go to a company and say you need to delete everything that you know about me >> that came as a result of GDPR. That is a huge positive. It forced every company. It forced my Google Ads team to make sure that we were actually able to track down everything that we knew about Nicola. I think that's a huge positive. On the other hand, those walls of uh prompts that you have to at this point you just give up and say yes. I think that's an unintended consequence. I think it has raised the cost of doing business for every European company and the people that ultimately benefited from GDPR were the giants who are able to spend the money, follow all the all the rules and be compliant while every new company that comes up in Europe has to struggle to follow all of these rules right out of the gate. That's what I mean by unintended consequences.

Nicolai Tangen: Unrelated question, will we have data centers in space?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Um, I'm simply not qualified to answer that. uh uh the maths look the math looks really really formidable. So

Nicolai Tangen: what will uh quantum computing uh unlock for snowflake?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: This is a great question. I think uh being things like uh first of all quantum computing computing similar to great AI models is a great security risk and making sure that your data is safe is a high priority for us. It uh promises to bring very new and different approaches about how you think about things like optimization and searching and uh we are confident about being able to use those things. I think core infrastructure will still continue to be super relevant in the world of quantum computing.

Nicolai Tangen: Can we spend a bit of time on your uh earlier years? You know, uh you're still a very young man, but when you were even younger, you after Google started up uh NEA, what did you learn uh from that failure?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: I mean there's a there is a part of me that is uh deeply idealistic and deeply romantic about the world that I would like to see. I consider that a positive >> and uh Neva was uh started out of this sincere belief that creating a better search engine was going to be a great business. Among the tough lessons that uh you learn is um consumer products especially do not get adopted without a without an experience that is dramatically better. At one level I knew that search could be better but I did not have a concrete plan for how my view of search and information could be 10 times 100 times better.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Ultimately, that's what led to its failure because we came up with a search engine that was marginally better, that had better privacy. Of course, you learned the hard way that uh privacy like exercise is a quality that we like subscribing to rather than actually practicing >> and u you know those were tough lessons but we had amazing folks in the team. We built amazing technology and it eventually ended up being the underpinnings of what AI became at Snowflake. So something great came out of it.

Nicolai Tangen: Yeah. I love the way that these type of things are learning learning experiences in the US in Europe. Uh that's not the way they are considered, you know. So uh uh so good.

Nicolai Tangen: Now then you went into Snowflake. Uh you were named uh CEO. Um the share price didn't particularly like it. Just how did you tell me about the first the first period in Snowflake?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Yeah, I think um there I became CEO at uh a pretty critical juncture for uh Snowflake when growth was actually slowing down. The day I became CEO, in fact, we guided five full percentage points below consensus for the year uh for the upcoming year. That was the u real reason for the dramatic drop. Of course, it does not help that an unknown person that has never been CEO before was taking over from the legendary Frank Slutman. These uh dealing with adversity in my mind is the true mark of uh greatness and uh we just set about going to work. I believed in the company. It helped that I had been in the company for 6 months and uh we focused back on creating great products.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: That ultimately is what makes the difference. Everybody talks about everything else but at the end of the day if you are in software life is fundamentally about are you creating products that people love >> and that singular focus on creating value is what has propelled us and uh this is how we have created products like cortex code. Um you can do a little bit of a search and you will see how much excitement and love there is about the product. This is what all software engineers live and dream for and that's what creates value for the company.

Nicolai Tangen: What do software engineers have in common?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: I would say previously in the pre-I era, software engineering combines the ability to think at a high level about how you want to solve a problem combined with almost this fanatical ability to drive the details. You need to be able to do both at the same time. It is a remarkably unforgiving discipline. You miss one comma somewhere, the compiler would not tell you, hey, that's just a comma, I'll add it for you. It's like that's an error that you had to deal with. I think AI is making things very different. I think the modern AIdriven software engineer is much more conceptual. They are actually managing a team of agents. They are exercising taste and judgment about what problems to solve and how solving these problems makes cont you know makes sense in the context of the company and the product that you're creating.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: These are the people that are quickly figuring out how to use the latest and greatest tools in order to solve a problem. That discipline is dramatically changing um by the day, by the week, and it's going to be completely different a year from now. I'll give you a specific example. My younger son is uh 24 years old. He graduated 3 four years ago as a software engineer from a really good university. And he was very proud of being a systems programmer that really knew the details designing uh streaming systems with three, four, five millisecond latencies. That was his specialty. And now he works for one of the AI labs. And uh he told me recently, "Dad, everything I learned in school and after that is completely useless to succeed in my current job. I've had to learn basically new things." That tells you how much things are changing.

Nicolai Tangen: That's incredible. That's incredible. Um at Snowflake, you have something called the weekly war room. What is that?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: Yeah, this is a concept that we put into place early on. Snowflake um you know, had specialized a lot. What I mean by that is um every function in between when a product is created to when you the customer can actually use it had evolved into its own specialized discipline. Um so you have software engineers, you have product managers, you have designers, uh you have product marketing managers, you have technical program managers. This stack keeps going up and up and up. All of this works fine when you have a perfect product and all you're trying is optimizing scale at every level of delivering that software to you. It does not work when things are changing dramatically.

Sridhar Ramaswamy: When you want to create a new product, you basically want to have a much tighter feedback loop between who is creating and who is using. We need to talk to your team every day, every week. We need to be on Slack channels because we need to figure things out. Honestly, that's what the war rooms did. They brought everybody that was responsible for a new area together into one place. I would participate in them and we would talk about how we made progress. This week is a way to short circuit communication. As you know in management um you can either organize horizontally or you can organize vertically and there are pros and cons of each of these things. This was an example of reorganizing virtually but vertically to drive outcomes. I do these even today I have a number of war rooms where we plan on Monday and in the world of AI I want to see results on Friday and that's the rapid speed at which we ourselves are evolving and changing even today

Nicolai Tangen: you call yourself an email machine

Sridhar Ramaswamy: I process email for a living

Nicolai Tangen: so do I

Sridhar Ramaswamy: but it's all about information you know I look at uh I look at management as um I like generally life I like working hard. I like uh both being in the detail but also being able to articulate the higher principles or uh help uh teams reach critical decisions. So I consume a lot of information. Um all of this is towards building context is about building intuition so that you can make the one or two or three decisions per year that are going to have a profound influence on your company. And so I think of a CEO's role as getting that breadth and depth in what is going on and helping drive like those outcomes. By the way, I don't think I'm the one that needs to be um driving the new ideas or coming up with new ideas or deciding. It is about making sure that you set up an environment in which the best ideas come up and you are the facilitator. You're the face of the team when you say yes, we should go in that direction. we should actually launch cortex code a coding agent because that is going to ensure our future um it's all about supporting the team.

Nicolai Tangen: What are the most important part of the copa culture?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: I think among the most important things that you need is I mean first of all let me start with baselines. Things like civility, things like respect for each other, things like equality of opportunity. Those are things that are a baseline in any company. Um definitely any company that I am a part of I do not accept uh like any behavior whatsoever that does not conform to these uh there's never any yelling um in you know that I will tolerate from literally anyone within uh uh within the company and I think setting that culture is uh is very important but beyond that the thing that I stress is an open culture in which things are evaluated ated on their merit, where people do not have to worry about contradicting me or contradicting anyone else, where we debate things openly, where we come together, where we also decisively reach um you know decisions that uh that dictate where we want to go and we're able to execute together as a team. Um but that open honest communication um and teamwork is something that I think is very very critical. Too many people And you see this all over in the world are afraid to say what they see.

Nicolai Tangen: You grew up in uh Tamil Nadu. How did that shape you?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: I grew up in Tamil Nadu. I was also in Bengaluru which is uh in a nearby state um until I went to college. I grew up in a lower middle-ass neighborhood. Most of the time when I was growing up, you know, there was one living room and one bedroom for a family of four. But this was a family that profoundly believed in education as a way forward, that was intellectually curious about things. Neither of my parents went to college. They only finished high school. Um, but uh they stressed education and there was nothing that they would not do to help me and my sister uh reach for a better life and uh educate ourselves. Uh so the virtues are very much that of uh being being knowledgeable being smart um is uh is important that it is helpful and that working hard can create a better future for all of us and uh these are qualities that I keep to this day. Uh and uh I'll also tell you that um you know my uh parents were also remarkably malleable. I went to a college that they did not want me to go to um because the idea of sending a young son to a college that was 300 miles away was something that they were very hesitant about but they supported me in uh in doing that or in who I choose as my life partner. I think that kind of malleability is also important. If I had to crystallize all of these back, I would say it's all about the value of education, the value of hard work and the value of being malleable to a changing world. Um, these are all things that uh I take very much to my heart and these are very much the qualities um that I talk to my children about.

Nicolai Tangen: If you were to do another degree now, what would it be? What are you curious about?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: You know when I was growing up I was really interested in things like uh cell biology and how um the body worked. Uh I think it is just um it's the kind of topic that interests me because it is infinitely complicated but also infinitely profound. Um I I think that would uh be enormously satisfying.

Nicolai Tangen: Last question. What is your advice to young people?

Sridhar Ramaswamy: It's the things that I said. Um, and I would add on one more which is I mean I'll start with as I said hard work matters. Being good at what you do matters. Having the ability to change your mind and learning and adapting and you know is is important. The third thing that I would say is being resilient to failure is really really important. It's really important that you try new things, but you have to accept that you're going to fail in many of them and that is okay. You're a lot more than any particular victory or any particular failure in what you do. Having that grounded sense of self I think is very important. So three things hard work, malleability, and resilience to failure.