Alexandra Mattvichuk is chairwoman of the Center for Civil Liberties, the same group that won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022.

Since the Russian invasion, she's been raising awareness of war crimes and other human rights abuses.

I sat down with her to talk about democracy, diplomacy, and the role Donald Trump is playing in peace talks.

>> Alexandra, thank you so much for taking the time. How are you today?

I'm fine. Thank you for invitation.

>> Recently, we have seen a flurry of diplomatic efforts to bring a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia. Yet, you recently wrote a piece titled, "Transactional diplomacy cannot bring peace to Ukraine. What do you mean by transactional diplomacy?"

I mean that when you based your political decision only on geopolitical interests even if you benefit in the short term we will all await for catastrophe in the long term and that's why we must base our decision not only on geopolitical interest but on human rights and freedom

and that's why we must base our decision not only on geopolitical interest but on human rights and freedom

>> in terms of the the negotiations that are happening right now. What do you think is missing from those? If it's not transactional diplomacy, what should they be focusing on?

>> Look what's going on. Recent months, we heard a lot about natural minerals, Russia's territorial claims, geopolitical interests, even about Zilinski suit, but we didn't hear about people, and it's not okay.

We still have no idea what will be with more than 20,000 Ukrainian children separated with their families and illegally deported to Russia.

What will be with thousands and thousands illegally detained civilians, men and women as well as prisoners of the war subjected to horrible torture and sexual abuse daily.

And what will be with people in Russian occupation in general?

We speak about millions millions of people who live in gray zone. They have no tools how to defend their rights, their freedom, their property, their life, their children and their beloved ones.

So we must return human dimension into negotiation process because without human dimension we will never find a path to sustainable peace.

>> Were you surprised that USRussia talks were unable uh to secure a deal uh with Ukraine?

>> No surprise because Putin doesn't want peace. Putin started large scale war not just to occupy more part of Ukrainian land.

It's not the war for Abdf K Bahmut. Majority of Russians can't find the tiny Ukrainian cities in the map.

Putin started large scale war because he want to occupy and destroy the whole Ukraine and move further. He see Ukraine as a bridge to Europe.

His logic is historical. He dreams about his legacy. He want to forcibly restore Russian Empire.

So in order to make Putin stop, it's not enough to roll in a red carpet. We must demonstrate strength to make Putin understand that it's impossible for him to achieve his goal.

>> You were part of a group that started an initiative called called Tribunal for Putin. What is the objective and how is this different uh from sort of the other work that the center for civil liberties has done?

We were the first human rights organization who sent mobile groups to work on documentation of war crimes in Crimea and eastern regions in Ukraine in 2014.

But when large scale war started, we faced with enormous amount of crimes. So we built national network of local documentators and covered the whole country including the occupied territories.

And now in our database of Tribunal for Putin initiative, we have more than 91,000 episodes of war crimes, which is a huge amount, but still just the tip of the iceberg.

And all these atrocities are possible only because Putin and his surrounding decided to break the peace and to start this bloody war.

So they must to be accountable and that's why we advocating to create a special tribunal on aggression.

>> You speak of accountability but there are institutions already the international court of justice. You have the European Union as well. Why do you feel we need this tribunal?

>> Because we have accountability gap. There is no international court which can prosecute Putin for the crime of aggression.

But it's not just important for Ukrainians. If you want to prevent wars in the future, we have to punish the states and their leaders who start such wars in present.

It sounds like a common sense, but even international criminal court in the H has no jurisdiction to prosecute for the crime of aggression in situation of Russian war of aggression against Ukraine.

So we must to fill this gap and to create such special tribunal to to to show that if you will start the war in the future you will be punished.

>> Do you feel that these institutions have let Ukrainians down? I know you speak of the gaps there but uh these institutions that I had mentioned

>> it's a general problem.

I don't know how historians in future will call this historical period but the world order which is based on UN charter and international law is collapsing before our eyes.

This system was created after the second world war to prevent wars and mass violence. But now we're just stolen and reproducing ritualistic movements for the obvious reason.

Even my smartphone has an expiration date. This system has never been reformed. Now it's totally paralyzed with a we power of Russia in security council.

>> I'd like to ask you about something you wrote in a recent essay and and you write current generations inherited democracy from their grandparents. They began to take it for granted. They've become consumers of democracy. Their understanding of freedom is the opportunity to choose between different cheeses in the supermarket. We are living very different realities as Canadians compared to Ukrainians right now. Help us understand what is the downside of taking democracy for granted.

The direct impact uh is that current generations in well-developed democracies. They first start to put into questions the universal declaration of human rights and second they start to exchange their freedoms for populist claim for economic benefits and first and foremost for their own comfort.

They forget that you can't attain your freedom and human rights once and forever. We make our own choice every day.

>> Despite everything that your country has gone through, what gives Ukrainians like you hope?

>> I think we must define the hope properly because hope it's not a confidence that everything will be fine.

Hope it's a deep understanding that all our efforts have a huge meaning.

And I know from my own experience being a human rights lawyer in situation when the law doesn't work that when you can't rely on the international system of peace and security you can still rely on people and ordinary people can do extraordinary things.

>> Alexandra we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much and wishing you all the best.

>> Thank you very much.