国际志愿者年：志愿服务如何构筑民主基石

Steve Paikin: Hi, everybody. I'm Steve Paikin, and we are delighted to be in Sudbury, Ontario, to kick off Season 4 of TVO Today Live. We are in the Vale Cavern here at Science North. Cut directly into the Canadian Shield, maybe it's a bit of a metaphor for our subject tonight. Where most conversations about democracy focus on politics, tonight, we're going to look at what happens beneath that, in the bedrock made up of everyday actions of people in their communities. 2026, if you don't know, is the International Year of the Volunteer, and we are going to dig into how volunteerism matters to democracy, and we'll do that here tonight. We've got four guests to help us with that conversation, so let me introduce Ontario independent senator Farah Mohamed, long-time advocate for youth and women, formerly CEO of The King's Trust Canada and the Malala Fund. Megan Conway is here. She is CEO of Volunteer Canada. And I'm tempted to ask, who's your uncle?

Megan Conway: It is Sean Conway.

Steve Paikin: Sean Conway, the former MPP from Queen's Park. Sudbury's own Amanda Kingsley Malo is here, a civics educator and founder of PoliticsNOW, and Lois Tuffin, writer and the founder of Volunteer Peterborough, and a self-described serial volunteer herself.

Lois Tuffin: Can't stop.

Steve Paikin: Can I get a nice welcome for these four people who've come to be with us here this evening? (Applauding)

Steve Paikin: Senator Mohamed has put a lot of effort into something, and I want to start with you and spend a few minutes with you just trying to get a better understanding of a voluntary national service year. And here's what you wrote in The Hill Times about this. You said, "In uncertain times..." ...which I'd say we are living in right now...

Senator Farah Mohamed: We certainly are.

Steve Paikin: ...nations rediscover themselves by building." So, how do you see this voluntary national year of service as part of nation-building?

Senator Farah Mohamed: Well, I think we're in the perfect storm right now. We have young people who do not have jobs. They feel lost. They need a sense of belonging. And we have a number of different things we can do to build up this nation. We hear the prime minister talk about it all the time. We have to do something about infrastructure, about our nature. We've got to do something about-- You name it. Our ports. So, if we want to build a strong nation, who better to do it than a generation who's going to have to live with those decisions? So, in my view, you put these young people into positions where they can see themselves. They learn new skills. They build new contacts and networks. They see a place where they belong. I volunteered for a very long time. I had the benefit of volunteering because I had parents who could support my very many adventures in volunteering. And we're living in a world now, unfortunately, where many young people don't have that luxury. They're paying off lots of bills. They haven't had a job for quite some time. So, combine the two. We need to build this nation strong. We have no shortage of ideas. We have an entire generation of young people who are saying, I care about the climate. I care about the world in which I live. I want to be part of my community. I need to know. I need to figure out how. So, in my life, I thought to myself, I've always had this opportunity. How do you get this young group together? National year of service. The difference is while I believe there's a volunteer element to that, we need to pay them now.

Steve Paikin: Is this something that would sort of kick in after high school, before post-secondary? Is that the idea?

Senator Farah Mohamed: Ideally, it's 18 to 30. We're finding some people who want to take a year off. Maybe they do this during their year. You know, we need to get young people plugged back into their communities. I'm pretty sure if I was to go around this audience, you could tell me about probably a nephew or a niece or a grandkid that feels a little bit lost. When you volunteer, you get this sense of gratitude, of giving, of changing. And in relation to democracy, which I know we're going to get to, you're going to come against people that you don't necessarily agree with, but you're going to learn from them. And that tests your confidence and it builds your curiosity. And I think that's how you build a strong nation.

Steve Paikin: This idea has been around for a while.

Senator Farah Mohamed: It has.

Steve Paikin: So, why do you think it is of particular relevance right now?

Senator Farah Mohamed: Well, for a couple of reasons. One, I think we've sort of lost this trend line of young people coming together. I think we have this perfect storm, as I said, of a country that's finding its way again. There is an energy in this country about building our country strong. You've got this generation of young people who are sitting idle. They cannot find those jobs.

Steve Paikin: Who are going to do less well than their parents, according to all surveys.

Senator Farah Mohamed: Absolutely. And you know, they're living in their basements or wherever they're living. They just-- We need to do something. So, I don't think there's a better time. We've got all of the different elements. The question is, do we have the political will.

Steve Paikin: Do you-- You spend a lot of time in Ottawa, And I'm going to mention the name of a guy who also spends a lot of time in Ottawa, former Ontario premier Dalton McGuinty...

Senator Farah Mohamed: Yes.

Steve Paikin: ...who as been working on an idea like this attached to municipalities around Canada for a lot of years, and has made a lot of progress. Do you know about his efforts and what he's up to?

Senator Farah Mohamed: I do. In fact, he launched it, and I think that's fantastic. So, the year of service that I've got in mind is it does work with government. So, municipal, provincial, federal. It works with the private sector. It works with charitable entities, because we know that charities are now having massive gaps where they don't have enough volunteers. And I think Megan might get into a little bit of that. It also has an area of engagement for the Canadian Armed Forces. So, what I've said is we don't need another study. We don't need another report. We don't need more people looking at why don't people volunteer. We need to do something about it.

Steve Paikin: When I was a kid, Prime Minister Trudeau, the father, brought in something called Katimavik, which was a national program focused on youth, designed to provide opportunities for service. Mm-hmm. It-- I think technically it still exists right now, although it's a far cry from what it used to be. But is this-- Again, for people maybe of my generation, are there comparisons to be made here?

Senator Farah Mohamed: Yeah. There's always comparisons, I think, 'cause we learn from what we had before. I actually met with JF, who's the CEO of Katimavik, and explained to him what the vision was behind this, and there are many points of similarity. I think what is different is this is national. We can have an entire group of young people who are paid to do this work, and still volunteer. We are not living in a world anymore where all young people can afford to volunteer. And that's the crux of it. We're in a very different time. Katimavik was created in a very, very different time, and those times have changed. So, I'm arguing for let's have a program that reflects where we are now. Not where we think we are, but this is where we are now. And so, for me, organizations like Katimavik, Dalton's program, I think these are all amazing places where we can come together. But I would like us to see a national program, properly funded, properly supported, where you do have the private sector, the social profit sector, philanthropists, the Canadian Armed Forces. And rather than doing piecemeal things all over the country, let's come together.

Steve Paikin: Now, is this the kind of thing that requires the introduction of a bill in the Senate or the House of Commons, or how does this actually happen?

Senator Farah Mohamed: No, actually. It doesn't require that. What it requires is for the government to say we're going to take the amount of money that we can, and we're going to put it somewhere. And we do now spend about $3 billion a year on youth-related programs. My argument is those are everywhere from six weeks to three months. For a young person, that's not enough. It's not enough for them to do something for six weeks and then say, "Hey, give me a job. I've got experience." The program that I'm suggesting is the first month is all skills-building. So, we've gone to employers. In my previous job, I was the CEO of The King's Trust, where we double down on youth employment. And what we did was we said to employers, "Tell us what you're not getting out of young people." And they gave us a list, and we turned that into what we call the skills academy, where you can take it online or in person and you come away with these skills that employers want. What's collaboration look like? Teamwork. How do you do simple things, like use Word, for example, or Excel spreadsheet? Put all that into an academy. Now, you're going into an employer's place and you've got all these skills. You're further ahead. Then, you get 11 months of actually being in a role. You've got responsibility, accountability, deadlines. You've got somebody you're reporting to. That's a job. I'm not knocking six weeks. I'm just saying it's not enough. It's not enough for an employer to say, "Oh, yeah. I'll take a chance on you, Steve, 'cause you've got six weeks in data entry," right?

Steve Paikin: Hmm.

Senator Farah Mohamed: The other thing I'll just add on is, you know, the world has shifted. We told people, young people, for a long time, "Go out. get a job in coding. You'll never, ever, ever be out of work."

Steve Paikin: Mm-hmm.

Senator Farah Mohamed: Have we heard of AI? (Chuckling)

Steve Paikin: Yeah.

Senator Farah Mohamed: So, AI is having an effect on entry-level roles. So, we again have to think differently about how we're getting young people into the workforce.

Steve Paikin: You know, my job is to be a journalist. I play one on television. (Laughing) So, it's kind of my job to, you know, ask a couple of smart-aleck questions every now and then, and here comes the first one. Do you worry at all that by paying this generation to essentially take a year and upskill, whatever, that you are somehow taking away, because it's paying, from volunteerism and that kind of thing?

Senator Farah Mohamed: It is a great question. The program, if it's done correctly, has an element of volunteering. So, yes. I do worry that we're saying, you know, volunteering-- I don't want to send the message that volunteering isn't important. The fact is, some people can't afford to volunteer.

Steve Paikin: Hmm.

Senator Farah Mohamed: There are barriers that get in the way. So, again, let's deal with reality. Young people don't-- I mean, we have 12% unemployment rate amongst young people, 14% in Ontario. Those people don't have funds to go out, get to a volunteer role, maybe buy a uniform, whatever the case may be in terms of the cost of volunteering. There are so many benefits of volunteering, but there are some costs. They're not going to be volunteering. If you could get them into a place where they're active, they're engaged, they're meeting people, they're doing work, they're being paid, I think you can get them into a "let's give back." Because typically, people, Canadians, give back. It's in our DNA, and I think we've lost some of that because young people feel disconnected.

Steve Paikin: Shall we do a poll and see what people think?

Senator Farah Mohamed: Let's do it.

Steve Paikin: Sheldon, can I get a wide shot of the audience, please? How many people here, show of hands, think the senator may be on to something here? Just generally speaking. Hands up. Hands down. How many people think, mmm, nice idea, but there's probably a lot of holes in this, a lot to figure out. Maybe this isn't going to work. Hands up. A few brave souls. Okay.

Steve: I'll see you guys later. (Audience members laughing) Let's get some feedback up here. Megan, your thoughts on this idea?

Megan: Well, I believe firmly, Steve, that service builds citizenship and that we need to think about how many opportunities and how many doors we can open for young people to serve in all sorts of ways. And the conditions that are enabling service in this country are very much so eroding. And so, at Volunteer Canada, the national leadership body that advances volunteering, we believe in a blended model where we think about voluntary service, paid service, military service. But how do we teach young people the skills they need to serve at this moment, at this time in this country, where I think many of us have lost that key value that the senator has identified. So, I think we have a pivotal moment to think about how we engage a generation of young people about what it means to serve their country, to serve their communities, and to volunteer in all sorts of different ways. Whether it's paid service or voluntary service, I think it's time for a conversation and for action.

Steve: Amanda, your advice?

Amanda: You know, it's really interesting. I was just thinking about my pathway into volunteerism, and you introduced me as the founder of PoliticsNOW. That's an organization that I started when I was 29. And the reason that I'm able to do that is because of three people that are in the audience today. My parents that are sitting over here, my husband that's sitting in the back. And that's because they give me the time and the space to be able to do that. The time that I have is precious. They're taking care of my kids when I'm giving back to the community. They're taking care of all of the household responsibilities. My husband's making dinner. My mom is babysitting my kids. Like, that takes a whole village of people to bring us together, to give me the time to give back to the place that I love so much. And I think that there's a lot of value in what you're saying.

Steve: Lois, your thoughts?

Lois: So, I think that the biggest question we get from youth when they start volunteering is, "What's in it for me?" (Steve: Yes.) And that's not something that I used to get from my peers in my generation. So, I think we have to say to them, "This is what you're going to get out of it." So, I think as long as there's also the intrinsic part of volunteering incorporated into it, I can see the value in it. Because if people aren't getting paid-- We get requests all the time. "I want to volunteer, but I want to be paid." And it seems kind of contradictory. So, I think you also have to make them see the value of that time, and as long as that's a component of it, then I can see it going forward and becoming a lifelong habit.

Steve: Just a quick follow-up. If the first question a young person asks is "What's in it for me," are they not kind of missing the plot here?

Lois: I think they're looking for, "Am I going to add this to my résumé?" I don't know. They've always been taught this kind of-- This value-based system of my time has value. My skills have value. And what-- I'm just asked the question.

Steve: Senator?

Farah: I think it's completely messed up. I mean, I-- Look. I think it's terrible to think what's in it for me if the idea is that. But the generation has changed. In some ways, we've taught people to ask, "What is in it for me?" You know? There's the sense of entitlement that we hear about all the time. That's not true of all young people, but there is an element of that. What's in it for them is a-- It's a good question, and it's-- You get skills and you get networks and all that kind of stuff. It's not necessarily a monetary benefit. But again, we have to describe that to them and then they have to feel it, you know? I don't how many times my parents said to me, "Oh, it's going to be this or that." Until I actually did it, I didn't believe it. I came to this country as a refugee. The first thing my parents did was have us volunteer. We volunteered in nursing homes and in our own community. And it was that we would feel that we understood Canada. What was it, to be in St. Catharines? What did that mean? And the connection to community, my parents still do it. So, for us, what was in it for us, even though we didn't call it that, was we got to know this country faster, better. Learned to know who our neighbours were. And that was what was in it for us. But the equation, the conversation has changed, and we've got young people asking that. And that is-- I think that's a problem. We have to rephrase that. And it's okay for them to ask, but it has to be really clear and then delivered.

Steve: Well, our discussion tonight is and will be focused on all age groups, aside from the program that you've just talked about. I wonder-- And Megan, maybe you could speak to this. Kids, to pass high school, had to do some volunteering and get credits for it. And on the one hand, that's great. It introduced them to a whole range of things out there they might not have known about. But on the other hand, it did set up in their minds, potentially, a bit of a transactional nature to the whole thing. Your thoughts on that?

Megan: That is a very kind way of describing what the mandatory voluntary service looks like in high school. (Everyone laughing) Okay. I think the design of it was great, because it was meant to enable broad numbers of Ontario young people to have a service or volunteering experience. The challenge in that is that it became very transactional, and it became a barrier for many young people who had to worry about a job or caretaking or other responsibilities in terms of academics. It became something that was not intentional or meaningful. And I think we really want to think about how can we make service and volunteering really meaningful for young people, and designed in a way that meets their interests as well as what's of need in the community. One of the things that we have learnt is that there's been the biggest decline in the rates of youth volunteering post-pandemic. And so, that's a pretty big worry that we have. The number-one thing I hear from young people, Steve, is they want to volunteer and participate. They do not know how.

Steve: They don't know how, because what?

Megan: Well, I think we have lost many of the institutions in our communities that teach volunteering and service. I get calls almost weekly about service clubs in communities from coast to coast to coast that are shutting down. We no longer attend religious institutions in the same way we once did. Some of those skills may have been taught within those religious institutions, but they were also places where people came together in a group setting around a concept of hope, and we're not coming together in places and spaces around shared initiatives in the same way that we did in the '60s and '70s. And so, therefore, young people today are maybe not having as much exposure to what it is to volunteer, serve and contribute. And I think that's something we need to fix collectively.

Steve: Well, that, Lois, might go for everything, 'cause I think when I was growing up in Hamilton, there might have been five different chapters of the Rotary Club in Hamilton, and they were all pretty full. And I think today, there's one left, because they've all had to merge in order to support even the smaller number of people who are there. That's just a reality today. So, what do we do about that?

Lois: And that's a challenge. Like, there's lots of communities that don't have volunteer centres. Peterborough didn't have one from 2016 until 2023, until we started one up again. So, there's lots of pockets and it's inconsistent, and people don't know where to go. And 'cause usually, you just ask a friend or you ask a parent, but maybe a parent isn't involved, isn't volunteering. So, you need a mentor, almost, to guide you along the way.

Steve: Amanda, maybe I can ask you this. This will seem obvious for those who are aware of what's going on out there, but as we've suggested, not everybody knows what the needs are. What's needed out there?

Amanda: I think just to add on to the conversation that's having here, I wonder if we're asking ourselves the questions about why people can't volunteer. What are the barriers that are standing in the way, and what is it that we can do to help alleviate some of those barriers? I think about--

Steve: What are they?

Amanda: Well, there's so many. I mean, we've talked about time. We've talked about money. Someone who's, you know, worried about how they're going to pay their grocery bill or their electric bill does not have time to go out and volunteer, and that's a massive barrier. I think about my own entry into volunteer. We talked about-- The senator talked about the family aspect of volunteering. And that's very much the way that I started volunteering as well. It was ingrained in my family growing up. But even when I was growing up in the '90s and the early aughts, that wasn't common anymore. And so, while it's something that I'm instilling in my own children, they're in the minority in their own classrooms of that kind of instilling of family volunteerism and that giving back to your community. I think is the thing that we owe each other.

Steve: Hmm. Megan, if somebody wanted to find out what the needs are out there to see if there's a connection to their interests, how do you start?

Megan: Well, one of the things we do is we recommend to individuals just to find what it is you're passionate about. And this year is the International Year of the Volunteer, as you mentioned, and Volunteer Canada, in collaboration with volunteer centres and other organizations across the country, are hosting a year-long campaign to excite people and make them feel like they might be interested in volunteering again by tapping into passion. So, it's called Ignite Volunteerism, and we're hoping people will find your thing. So, maybe you love to run. Maybe you love cuddling bunnies. I don't know what you love doing, but there is an organization in your community that would love that passion to be connected to your-- To that organization. And so, we often encourage individuals to find a volunteer centre if you have one, because they know about those needs best of all, or to tap into what it is you're most passionate about and pick up the phone and reach out to that organization and see if that passion might align to that organization's interests. And I think we need to think about this in very simple ways. How can you help your neighbour? I often think about a handshake as the very basic form of human democracy, about a helping relationship as the crux of who we are as humans in one another, in association with one another.

Steve: I want everybody in this audience, after the show is over, to take your phones out. Go to cuddlingbunnies.ca and sign up. (Everyone laughing)

Megan: There is-- Steve, there is actually There is a need for cuddling bunnies.

Steve: I'm sure. I'm sure there is.

Megan: And so, definitely something that-- Tap into your passion. We don't encourage volunteering as a "should." No one ever likes to be "should" on. So, we want to think about how can we make it exciting and joyful and accessible and fun.

Steve: Just to clarify, you said, "No one likes to be 'should' on."

Megan: "Should" on. Yes. No one likes to be "should" on.

Farah: I did hear that "should." No one likes to be "should" on.

Steve: 'Cause that was kind of close to something else. I just wanted to confirm. You've had a long career in the voluntary sector. Do you see a through line

Farah Mohamed: ...between volunteering and civic engagement? Absolutely.

So, let's break it down. People who are civically engaged are knowledgeable about something. They have connection with someone. They believe in the betterment of society. They think that they have an obligation to the country in which they live. They actively participate. What does this sound like? It sounds like volunteering.

We have seen volunteering drop. We have seen number of people voting going down. Why? Let's ask ourselves why. There are barriers to both. Sure. But what excites people about those two things? Change. Impact. Seeing something better. Those two things connect.

Farah Mohamed: I am a big believer that if I hadn't volunteered-- So, my first volunteer, as I said, was in a nursing home, and right through our community. My parents made us read the paper. We read the Toronto Star every single day. I was that geek. I enjoyed it. I learnt the importance of issues around health care. We started volunteering in a health care environment, because we could see that there were health care challenges. We got to know more about health care. When I started--

Steve Paikin: That was Premier McGuinty's entrée as well, incidentally. When he was in university.

Farah Mohamed: Oh, I didn't know that.

Steve Paikin: When he was in university, he worked at a long-term care home, and that's how it all started.

Farah Mohamed: Yeah. So, now you start paying attention to is the government funding health care properly? Oh, that schoolyard. Should I volunteer picking up litter in that schoolyard? Are schoolyards being funded properly? Oh. What's going on with the environment?

And here we have a generation of young people who care about the environment. We have wildfires. What if we got volunteer people go out and fight wildfires? That's what they want to do. They want to be active. Hey. Is the government taking care of the climate?

So, things that you care about connect to how you see your government showing up. From a municipal level, from a provincial level, from a federal level. And it may not seem like that, and it may not be obvious, but in the back of your head, you're starting to make judgments about the city that you're living in, the community that you're living in, the country that you're living in.

And what role can you play? You can play it with your time. You can play it with your money. You can always play it with your vote. But I don't know that we actually teach that, and there are people who are in a better place than me to talk about what we're teaching in school. But that civic action, that civic duty, comes from belief in community, connection to community, and understanding your own impact.

Steve Paikin: The local member for Sudbury, who represents this city at the Ontario Legislature, is sitting right here. He's got a microphone. Sheldon, can I have a camera on Jamie West? And we are here in Science North. Does that have a particular connection for you?

Jamie West: It absolutely does. This is where I had my first volunteer job. So, my mom--

Steve Paikin: So, what did you do here?

Jamie West: I worked on the third floor. They had a computer lab. And this is in the old days, where maybe there was a computer in the library at your school. I was really into computers. I was very excited about them. And you know, the senator mentioned something similar to this. My mom wanted to see how I could get into computers, how I could figure out how to use them.

And it was a real learning experience for me, because you know, we went to Sears, had to get black pants and a white shirt. And you know, so, you learn about, like, what's required for what you're going to wear. You learn about showing up on time. You learn a little bit of customer service and talking to people and breaking out of that shell. And especially when you're 13, you don't talk to a lot of adults. Adults generally talk to you, and so, you have to show them different things. And so, you start building that leadership ability.

Steve Paikin: What do you think it did for you, volunteering here?

Jamie West: Well, one, you know, my family didn't have a lot of money, so I think the opportunity of coming here where there's a lot more sort of middle-class kids coming, I had that opportunity to see, you know, what else was going on.

But also, the-- You know, you build up that love of Science North and what Science North does for the community. And then I think my opportunity to really dig into-- You know, I was nerdy as well. I loved computers. I found them so interesting. And this is way before, like, Macs and PCs. They were very interesting, and at the "budding" edge of what was going on. And that opportunity to see science, front-end knowledge-- And you know, and I think I really benefited from those skills.

And then on top of that, when I was getting older and trying to find a part-time job, you had something on your résumé that was different than "Watched my neighbour's dog, mowed the lawn," right? You had you had things that you could actually demonstrate. And in interviews, when they said, like, you know, "Do you have issues with getting here on time?" And I know how to take the transit, and I know how to-- I know it's important, that "on time" is actually 15 minutes before you show up. And all these things that employers are looking for, especially when you're, you know, 16 years old, looking for your first job.

Steve Paikin: Well, let me ask the obvious question. Do you draw a line between the volunteerism you did here and the job you have now?

Jamie West: Well, I don't know exactly. I mean, yeah. Absolutely. But it's layers and layers and layers of doing things, right, that come on to it.

I think the thing for volunteerism that a lot of people overlook-- And maybe part of this conversation is that idea of-- You know, I said to my mom-- I tell people all the time my mom voluntold me for a lot of stuff. I was voluntold to work at the Northern Lights Festival. I was voluntold to come here. And so, I think that sometimes, when there's a passion about something, we don't often share it with somebody else. "I really love, you know, volunteering at Science North. You should come here, too. I really love being involved in my church. You should come to my church, too. I'm really involved in Northern Lights Festival Boréal. You should come volunteer, too." Because as it was said earlier, some of these people just can't find the door, or they don't-- They think that it's a select group of people who are chosen for volunteers and not that there's a lot of organizations just desperate for the volunteers to show up.

Steve Paikin: Got you. Jamie West, thanks for coming tonight...

Jamie West: Absolutely. ...and sharing your perspective on this. Much appreciated. Thank you.

Steve Paikin: I have to just let everybody know that the senator has an engagement tomorrow morning in Toronto...

Farah Mohamed: Calgary.

Steve Paikin: ...that she's got to get to, which means hopping a flight tonight, which means she can't miss her plane, which means you got to get out of here in a couple of minutes to do that. Sorry, yes. But I wonder if you could leave, just leave a final nugget of advice or wisdom for this audience on this subject.

Farah Mohamed: Well, this is a particular audience that lives in a community that I think is pretty tight-knit. I live in Toronto, and it's not as tight-knit. And so, I think there's something to be said about you find your people through volunteering. Hmm. You really do. You find your people through volunteering.

And in a world where we're living, where people don't feel connected, I think there's a special sauce in volunteering. We have to remove some of the barriers. Some of the barriers, for example, we can get around them. But not around them, but we have to address them. For example, in some cases, you have to have a police check done. So, how do we do that smartly, in a way that doesn't prevent somebody from volunteering?

The other thing I would say, and you said this very well, Jamie, is there's a cool factor to volunteering. You get to go to cool places. Today, I toured this building. If I lived here, I would have wanted to volunteer here. Hmm. Mm-hmm.

So, I think what we have to do is we have to be ambitious again about volunteering. We have to be ambitious about the doors we open for other people, and that is a big part of what I hope a program would do, whether it's the national year of volunteering or whether it's a national program where we pay young people to get back in it. I'm desperate for us to find doors for young people, because there aren't enough of them.

So, what I would say is if there's an opportunity for you, either here or elsewhere, to open up a door for a young person, sometimes people don't volunteer 'cause they haven't been asked. Ask somebody to volunteer. Bring somebody along with you. That's how I think this phenomenon starts again, because we desperately need it as a country.

And it's great for young people. It's great for middle-aged people. It's great for older citizens. It's not a one-size-fits-all. And my God, you make great friends through volunteering. So, that's my pitch for volunteering. I think it's-- You know, there used to be a slogan for people who gave blood: "It's in you to give." I feel the same way about volunteering.

Steve Paikin: You're going to get to do something now that every TV talk show host dreams of, and that is making a grand exit to applause. (Everyone laughing) Senator Farah Mohamed.

Farah Mohamed: Thank you very much, everyone.

Steve Paikin: Thank you, senator. It's great to have you here. (Applauding)

Steve Paikin: And just a reminder, everybody. We are here in Sudbury, Ontario at Science North, in what is truly-- How do I describe this? This is just a unique place in the province of Ontario. We're in the Vale Cavern at Science North, and our guests for this discussion about volunteerism, I'll reintroduce them now. Megan Conway, the CEO of Volunteer Canada. Civics educator Amanda Kingsley Malo, and Lois Tuffin, who is the founder of Volunteer Peterborough.

This whole TVO Today Live series really focuses on democracy, and I want to start to probe that connection a little bit here. Because volunteers, as we have heard, do experience a range of activities with other people. You got to learn how to get along with other people. You got to build community. Got to learn social leadership skills, you know, take actions, join with committees, and so on and so forth. Is it-- Go ahead, Amanda. You start off on this. Is it too broad to label all of that kind of democracy-making?

Amanda Kingsley Malo: Oh, I wouldn't say that at all. I think that that's broad, just as broad as it needs to be. And I think having a conversation about volunteerism is especially interesting to do here with all of you, because the backbone of northern Ontario communities is built on volunteers, and the hours that we each put in to make sure that our communities continue to thrive. That's what it means to be northern Ontarians.

It's, you know, coaching our kids' hockey teams and soccer teams, and it's being president of the PTA and fundraising for our schools, and volunteering across the street at Health Sciences North. All of those things are work that we do to give back to the place that we love. And it's one of the reasons that we're able to stay here, and we're incredibly fortunate that that's so ingrained in who we are. And so, that's democracy-building, that's community-building, and that's caring for your neighbour, which I would say at the very least of democracy is the point. People are the point of democracy.

Steve Paikin: Lois, yeah want to add to that?

Lois Tuffin: Actually, can I tell you a story about how our organization was founded?

Steve Paikin: Please.

Speaker A: 'Cause it is very closely related to what you're talking about. In 2022, there was a provincial election, and Jagmeet Singh, who was the NDP leader for the federal NDP party, came to Peterborough to support the provincial candidate, and he was accosted verbally by a group of people who said horrible things. Threatened his life. You all remember this? You see this on the news? I see lots of heads nodding. It was so embarrassing. It was so embarrassing for the people of Peterborough. I nearly died when I watched the news. Um, sorry. It really upset me. And, um, a group of us got together and said, "What? What is this?" It was not our city.

Four days later we led a city-wide food drive, and we raised 54,000 pounds of food to help people. We called it Porch Pirates for Good. We dressed up as pirates, and we stole food from people's homes. And the conversation was how can these two things happen in the same city in the same week? And we decided people were disconnected. These people who had accosted him were part of the anti-vaccine kind of group. And they felt that people weren't listening to them and they felt disconnected, and they felt that nobody cared about what they had to say. And so, we looked at all kinds of solutions, and we came up with volunteerism. And that is why we exist as we are today, and we are trying to encourage people to feel connected, to not give up on their communities, to not get angry, but to actually give their time.

Steve Paikin: How well is the organization doing four years later?

Speaker A: Well, let's see. Right now, we have about 2700 registered volunteers. We have 25,000 people that use our service a year, and we represent 194 organizations. We are completely volunteer. We don't have any staff, because my group of people believe so strongly about this. And it's-- We've had some great matches. We've had great testimonials. There's a lot of work to still do.

Steve Paikin: Okay. Here's where I have to play killjoy. Are you ready, Megan? Here we go.

Megan Conway: Go ahead. Mm-hmm.

Steve Paikin: This may be the International Year of the Volunteer, as the United Nations has designated it, but I'm going to share some numbers from Stats Can which tell a bit of a sad story here. Volunteering is down overall 8% in the past five years. The number of volunteer hours contributed by the community is down 18% over that period. What accounts for that?

Megan Conway: We think it's a pretty major problem that we all need to be paying attention to, Steve. And the trend line goes down further than five years. So, we've lost about 20% in terms of volunteer contributions over the last 10 years. Lots of reasons. I think we are-- We identified today cost of living is a barrier. We know that people-- The number-one reason we hear from folks is they don't know how. We know people have a willingness to do it. We don't have the infrastructure that enables it at scale. So, we have barriers in the system that prevent people from participating. We have cost-of-living challenges. We have time issues. We have lots of barriers that exist.

One of the things I would say is that the Government of Canada identified our organization, Volunteer Canada, as the national body that should develop a national voluntary action strategy. We're working actively on that, and are going to be releasing some of our research and the strategy itself over the next few months. We think there are solutions to solve this problem, but it is a whole-of-society response, and I think that is an important thing for us all to think about.

Steve Paikin: How much is COVID responsible for that drop in volunteerism?

Lois: Mm-hmm.

Megan Conway: I think COVID accelerated what was already happening in our communities. I think we became more disconnected from one another in COVID. I think we became more reliant on technology to receive services, rather than on connecting with one another to actually solve some of those problems. I think that's-- I don't think it's the only reason. I think it just accelerated what was already in existence in our communities.

And I think we need to find ways to communicate with one another in today's time. We've lost the ability to see the other in many situations. We're very polarized. We're lonelier. And I think volunteering offers the opportunity to reconnect people and to help us learn about those that are different than ourselves, and to build empathy with our neighbour, who might not look or feel or identify in the same way as we might.

Steve Paikin: Amanda, if we can't turn that around, if we can't start to bring that participation curve back up, what are the implications for society.

Amanda Kingsley Malo: Well, I think to an earlier point, when we were talking about the lowering numbers in volunteerism, we're also seeing that when we talk about just engaging in democracies in the ways that we traditionally think of. And so, voting and so on. All of that is directly related, right? And so, we're watching the erosion of these two things that I think that too often, we think of as separate, and they're really connected.

Because when we think about voting in polarized society, we think of it as, like, your team versus my team, or that team, them versus me, or whatever that is. Volunteering also gives you an opportunity to build those bridges, to get to know people that might have differing opinions. And we start seeing this as a disagreement of policy as opposed to a sports game. And I think that that, in conjunction together, in making that work together, can make a really big difference in how we grow democracy and build our nation.

Steve Paikin: Are you noticing this in your organization? A difficulty hanging on to volunteers?

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think what I would add to that is the social service agencies need-- They have more client demands. They need more Meals on Wheels delivered, at a time when it's harder to get Meals on Wheels delivery people. Like, it-- And it leaves this gap. And what do they do? These-- There's such a demand for service, and they need-- They can't afford to have paid people to do all of the work, so they count on volunteers, and people fall between the cracks.

I think one issue we haven't talked about yet is social anxiety. We talk about COVID. So, that took a lot of people out of volunteering. But it is-- The barrier, the hidden barrier is that people are not going to pick up a phone. Did anybody here phone anyone before they text them anymore? Like, honestly. (Chuckling) Yeah. We have phone phobia now, don't we?

Lois: We do.

Speaker A: And especially young people. They want to know exactly what the role is. They want to know how many hours. They want to know if they're going to succeed. There is such a fear of failing in our society right now. People-- Before, you used to fall down and get up, and you wouldn't end up on Facebook or whatever. You could just-- You could just get on with your day. But people want to know they're going to succeed at volunteering. And so, the bar for them to go in and actually do it is so much higher. They almost talk themselves out of it before they get there.

Steve Paikin: Megan, maybe you could help us understand that if we can't move that participation rate up, what the consequences for society will be.

Megan Conway: I think we just need to look around the world to authoritarian regimes and really take a close look at some of the patterns that are existing in other countries, and think-- One of the things that I've been told is the only two levers we have left in our democracy are voting and volunteering. So, the question of how do we support people to associate around issues that really matter to them, I think is a really key lever we need to pay attention to in terms of how we build democratic societies.

I think we all want to feel a sense of hope. Many of us are experiencing complex problems in our communities. We need to feel a sense of agency about where we can go to solve those problems, and volunteering, I think, gives us those skills.

I think about my grandparents often when I think about volunteering. I think that is a generation of people who have a strong commitment to serving Canada. I think we need to think about service in a variety of ways, including an older adult or a retired senior volunteering, probably have an older adult service initiative in Canada. I think there's lots of ways we can solve this problem. I just think we need to think about it as a whole-of-society response, so that we are able to solve the complex problems that are facing us collectively.

Steve Paikin: Now that you mention it, now that you've mentioned your grandparents, I'm thinking of mine as well. My maternal grandmother and my maternal great-grandmother both knitted stuff for the local whatever, right, and then donated it to them. I don't know anybody who does that anymore. Does that happen?

Amanda Kingsley Malo: They still do that here.

Steve Paikin: They do?

Amanda Kingsley Malo: Absolutely they still do that here.

Steve Paikin: Oh. I see people pointing away. Okay. Good. We have some knitters here who are still doing that.

Megan Conway: And I think when you think about rural-- I live in rural Renfrew County, and we are a community of people who bootstrap solutions to the problems we face. And I think that drive exists in all of us, and I think we need to channel that as a country of Canadians who want to solve problems, big and small, across the country.

Steve Paikin: Have you managed to get-- Since we're talking about the connection between volunteerism and democracy-- Through your work, Amanda, have you managed to get people who maybe initially started as volunteers and eventually ended up putting their name on a ballot?

Amanda Kingsley Malo: Oh, that happens all the time. I would say that that's one of the most common things that we actually see, when particularly women decide to run for office. And I find it really interesting, especially in small towns or mid-size cities like here, is that we can look at leadership differently because in so many ways, it's volunteers that are driving the leadership in our communities.

And it's giving them, you know, to Jamie's earlier point, the cred and that résumé-building that lets-- to show our community, like, this is who I am as a leader and look at the things that I've already led. And you know me and you know what I can do. And I can lead us in this way, in this movement in this time. And it's a really wonderful opportunity to help build the connections that you eventually use as a politician.

Steve Paikin: Let me do the follow-up with you on this. We heard earlier about how, possibly, it's easier to make this work in rural and northern communities as opposed to big cities. Big cities can be very intimidating, lonely places from time to time. Do you think the big cities of the province have something to learn from more rural and more northern locations?

Amanda Kingsley Malo: Oh, absolutely. And so, one of the things that we do at PoliticsNOW, knowing that northern Ontario is so vast-- And yeah. I mean, I can't be doing campaign schools in Thunder Bay. I just don't have the capacity or the money, unfortunately. And so, we do a lot of the work that we do online. And so, when we think about reimagining what volunteerism looks like and what connection looks like, maybe there's opportunity to look at that as well.

And so, that's how we build connections. We build bridges across this vast land that we have in northern Ontario. But those relationships are the ones that they start building with the skills that they learn through PoliticsNOW. It's also then the skills that they bring with them into office. And so, once they're elected and they're meeting at the Association of Municipalities

Amanda: of Ontario conferences, they already have that connection built, whether they, you know, are from Dryden or Sudbury or Kapuskasing or wherever it is they're from, they all met online and they did this work together. And that's also nation-building.

And I think especially when we think of the youth and we think of where they are, maybe that's one of the questions we have to ask ourselves, is does volunteering look different now? Can we meet them where they're at? Are there different ways that we can integrate the things that they're into that looks different than it was 30 years ago when I was a kid into the work that they're doing now? And that we can capitalize on the excitement that they have.

My former job was as a classroom teacher. And I have to say, whenever people talk to me about, like, the kids these days. Man. The kids these days are-- They're all right, man. Like, they're great.

(Chuckling)

And it's the passion that I would see in my Grade 8 classroom. They get really excited about the activism and things that they cared about. There's-- Like, you've met 13-year-olds, I'm sure. There's no one in the world who's ever cared about anything as deeply as a 13-year-old, right? And we can capitalize on that energy, if we look at meeting them where they are and taking that opportunity to teach them how to do this.

Steve: That's beautifully encouraging. Let me do one more round with you three here, and then, we're going to invite this audience to get involved and ask your questions as well. We have a microphone set up in the middle of the aisle there. So, if anybody has a question and you want to start lining up, now is a good time.

I wonder, just as a as a kind of wrap-up on all of this, do we need to think-- We heard the senator's idea earlier. Do we need to think even bigger right now? Some way to get-- I don't know. We've seen other countries do this. Mandatory national service for everybody, for example. Megan, what do you think?

Megan: We need lots of on-ramps into service, and so, we may need a voluntary service model, a paid service model, military service. I think we do need to think big. I think we need to think about how we mobilize large numbers of Canadian young people to participate in their communities and to co-create the Canada that they want to live in. Giving them tools. Giving them resources. Recognizing that they also need jobs and skills. I think that's really important.

And we also need an older adult service corps in this country in my opinion, because the 55-plus crowd, they are the number-one folks. They tell us they're the least likely to be asked to volunteer and participate, but when they do, they give twice as much time. And so, that, in my opinion, is a demographic that has a strong desire to give back. They just haven't been asked. So, we need to mobilize both of those age groups to achieve the kinds of service initiatives and big dreams we want to think about.

Steve: Okay. Fast follow-up. 'Cause that's the demographic that obviously has more disposable time than anybody else.

Megan: They have more time and more income. So, we need to think about how can we leverage some of their skill, wisdom and experience that they want to also contribute to young people, and think about intergenerational volunteering and engagement. I think there's a huge opportunity there to think about how we build that at scale in this country.

Steve: Cool. Lois, if we're thinking bigger, what should we be thinking?

Lois: Any community that doesn't have a volunteer centre needs to get it put in gear. And if they want to call me or they want to call Megan and find out how to do it, that's what we need. We need to give people a place to go. We literally don't have an office. We sit in the lobby of a business centre and we help people.

Steve: That's what you're doing in Peterborough.

Lois: That's what we're doing right now. You know, we're winging it. (Laughing) But you know what? When you wing it, you help people. So, if you don't have a volunteer centre, find out how to get one, 'cause you're going to change your community radically.

Steve: How many hours a week do you devote to this?

Lois: Oh, gosh. Probably 20. But I'm a volunteer. This is not-- I'm not even paid. I hope my husband's not watching. Anyway, yeah. So, I love it, and I just-- I've seen so much good come out of it. But I have a great team of people there, so--

Steve: 20 hours a week. You know, that's a great number. It doesn't take over your life, but it's clearly enough to contribute something meaningful. So, that's good.

Lois: Yeah, because I see people being converted.

Steve: Yeah, nice. Amanda, last word on this?

Amanda: I would say that I almost wonder if to think this big, we also need to think small and we think about instilling volunteerism from a young age and in all of our everyday actions, so when you're shovelling the snow for your neighbour, that's volunteering. And when you're supporting, you know, the local nursing home, that's volunteering even if you're going in for a couple of hours a week.

One of the barriers we talked about was, of course, time and I think that that's one of the things that people think, "Well, if I don't have 20 hours, maybe it's not worth doing." But I argue half an hour, an hour, five hours, whatever it is that you have would make a huge difference in an organization, it would make a huge difference even in the lives of your neighbours and I think it's really worth instilling young and so then when you have the opportunity to be able to give more to your community, it's already so ingrained with you that it feels as natural as breathing.

Steve: Think big, but also think small. Nice. Okay, we've got a nice lineup of people already waiting to get into this, so ma'am, if you would, maybe everybody say their name, where they're from and who your question is directed to.

Alice Norquay: Hi, my name is Alice Norquay. I'm from Sudbury, Science North. I used to work here. (Chuckling) Um, but my question is kind of for the panel and I wanted to jump on what Amanda was saying and I really appreciate your organization. I've done some of your, like, online stuff.

Amanda: Thank you!

Alice Norquay: Um. So, that's been great, but you were talking about young people volunteering and maybe it looks different and so something that I'm thinking about is, um, how many volunteers go into moderating Reddit message boards and go into creating podcasts and YouTube videos, you know, we all know about the YouTubers who are making too much money, but the vast, vast, vast majority are just doing it for fun and doing it for free. And it's not just, you know, people reviewing their favourite TV shows. A lot of it is about mental health issues, a lot of it is about politics. Um. So, how can we perhaps reorient and meet them where they are when they're already doing this on their own?

Steve: Let's get that question to Amanda. Go ahead.

Amanda: I think that's really interesting and it's one of the ways in which I use volunteers most often with politics now because we're trying to get the the message out and to reach as many people as we possibly can, right?

And so, I've had actually quite a few teenagers and college students, university students that have reached out to me and have been like, "Hey, can I repackage your training that you just did and make like a two-minute YouTube clip so that I can help give this to somebody in an accessible way?" And that's great because those are skills that I don't have, but they make a really big difference because that YouTube clip is seen thousands of times and is reaching women across the province who are running for office that otherwise wouldn't have found me so that I can help train them for the office that they're running for and so I think that things like that are a great idea and I would go even further than that.

Like, when you're talking about, like, the Reddit discussions. That unlocked something really deep for me because how many conversations are they having around democracy that they don't even know that that's what they're doing? That's volunteerism and we're not calling it that for the young.

Steve: But we should.

Amanda: And if we rebranded it a little bit, I think that we could probably help them see the skills that they're building. The what's in it for me? This is a huge part of what's in it for you.

Steve: I do have a question for you. Why are you wearing Darth Vader?

Amanda: Um. I'm wearing floral Darth Vader. (Laughing)

Steve: Because?

Amanda: Which, um, I think as a concept, a flowery villain is just a powerful avatar.

Steve: Okay, you're scaring the hell out of me right now. Okay.

All: (Laughing)

Amanda: It, it matches the jacket.

Steve: It looks great. No, it does. Thank you very much for the question. Okay. Yes, please, sir. Name and location.

Jeff MacIntyre: Um. Jeff MacIntyre. I'm from Sudbury. Um. I was one of the hands that went up against the idea of paying and it is that transactional thing that I find difficult, but it's transactional on both sides ever since, you know, we started having these volunteer hours.

I've sat on a lot of boards and the amount of times where I've heard, "Well, let's just get some students. They need volunteer hours." And you're not, listening to the conversation just has reinforced this for me. Jamie's story, your stories. I see a bunch of people in the room that I recognize from volunteering. My story is it's about, it is what's in it for me. But you could never pay me for the experiences that I got out of volunteering or for unique opportunities that I got as a youth that got be hooked on volunteering.

I think it's the other side of the transaction that's failed, right? It's, we're not providing those kind of unique experiences to young people and putting them in the cool rooms. Introducing them to the artists that they are volunteering to protect the stage for or, you know, the amazing people that they're working with, right? Those are the experiences that I think create lifelong volunteers.

Steve: That's a great point. Does the sector itself have to get its act together in that regard?

Megan: I think we need, I love what you're saying because I do think about my own career and about how I gain leadership skills and employment skills and doors were opened for me and I think we do need to think collectively about how we're opening doors for young people and how we're listening to what it is they're interested in doing and harnessing our capacity to meet them where they're at and I really think that there's something in what you're saying around how we open, invite, and ask young people and provide them with a platform that they want and need to be able to enforce and create change, so I love that. Yeah.

Steve: Thanks, Mr. MacIntyre. Next please.

Kathy Orlando: Hi, my name is Kathy Orlando and I'm from Sudbury. I want to express gratitude to all of you for making the connection between democracy, volunteering, and the many connections you're connecting it to.

I run a national organization that is in the civic engagement space on climate change. And our sister organization in the United States, their volunteers get to write off all their expenses and I'm wondering if you've ever thought of the tax code, if there's anything we can be doing with the tax code to help volunteers. Thank you.

Steve: Go ahead, Megan.

Megan: It's definitely something that's been identified as as an area that, we believe that Volunteer Canada needs more inquiry. I think there are other models internationally where there has been a review both at the individual level, but also at a corporate level and so we don't have a position at Volunteer Canada

Speaker: on that topic, but we do believe it requires more investigation. The one thing I would say is there are some administrative burdens that I think would really need to be studied, but I 100% think it needs a review in some way, shape or form because other jurisdictions are doing it, so.

Speaker (STEVE): Miss Orlando, can I ask you? Do you think you would have an easier time getting people on board if they were able to write off expenditures related to their volunteerism?

Miss Orlando: Yes, the type of work we do requires a little bit of travel and a lot of research and a lot of books. Books are better than the Internet, frankly, because you really get, you really get the information at your fingertips and you don't go down rabbit holes, so yeah, if we could write off our books, if we could write off some of our travel, if we could write off some of our expenses for attending conferences. Like, for example, when cap and trade was being studied in Ontario, um, to get into the Ontario Government final things, you had to pay $1,500 just to walk through the door.

STEVE: Hmm. Hmm. Well, federal budget's coming out next month. Francois-Philippe Champagne, are you listening? Anyway, there we go. Thank you for that intervention. Much appreciated. Yes, please. Next.

Achimay Hosein: Hello, my name is Achimay Hosein. I am-- I have a local business in (Unclear), it's called Lookify. At the same time, I'm involved with so many volunteer organizations, especially non-profit organizations, so recently we also bring JCI. That is Junior Chamber International. It's (Unclear) work for the youth organization from here. So, when I'm working with youth, especially, as a volunteer role, so I'd like to ask two questions, actually. First one is how we can make sure, because I am an immigrant, so how can we make sure--

STEVE: Where are you from originally?

Achimay Hosein: I'm from Bangladesh.

STEVE: From Bangladesh. Okay.

Achimay Hosein: Yes. So, I would like to know how the immigrants, newcomers, or any under represented communities have, we can make sure they are more, um, we can get them more useful in our communities, especially in Sudbury.

STEVE: Okay, hold that thought. Hold that. One question at a time. Sure. How do you, I mean, you're in the business of trying to get people to volunteer and join your organization. Do you have a special difficulty trying to get new Canadians or refugees to help out?

LOIS: Yep. We have new Canadians flooding us because they are more motivated to get integrated into society. But we also need to do, we're talking about getting them into the leadership and committees, we need to stop telling people, "Come to our event. Hand out water bottles and set up tables." You need to sit at the table and you need to be part of the conversations about how we work with the other volunteers. But yeah, when we have drop-ins, almost, like, 40% or more are new Canadians that are like, "Sign me up. Find me something. I want to put something on my resume. I need Canadian experience. I want to use my language skills." And we're like, "Let's do it!"

Speaker: The one thing I'm going to flag is I think there's a really important conversation to be had about decent volunteering and decent work. And I think newcomers are often encouraged to volunteer when they arrive in Canada as. And there are lots of positive benefits for newcomers volunteering in Canada. And I also think we need to have a really honest conversation around how do we give a newcomer their first job alongside that? Because they're looking for mentorship, they're looking for employability skills, they're looking for integration into Canadian communities and one of the themes in our research we've identified is this concept of hope labour. And so, they're giving their time and their talent in the hopes of a job and I think we need to think really critically around where is it a true welcome versus where are we potentially, um, not really thinking about how we integrate them economically into our communities also.

STEVE: Second part of your question?

Achimay Hosein: Uh, yeah so, is there, do you think is there, um, any central digital system is good for especially for volunteer things, so that whenever anyone needs or anything is posted, there is a central hub for those things so it will be easy for anyone to get that information easily? Not go by every organization part by part.

STEVE: Is there a central repository or place, I guess you're it, hey?

Speaker: Volunteer, yeah, so we do definitely. If you're looking for a volunteer opportunity or a local volunteer centre, check out volunteer.ca. We have, uh, there are 200 volunteer centres across the country. They're small, they're large, they're mighty, they're like Lois. They're doing the work of connecting individuals with the causes in their community that need it and you can check that out and you can also, um, go into a volunteer centre in your community and ask where there's help needed.

STEVE: Maybe I could do a follow-up with you on this. I gather the town of Innisfil, which is about three hours south of here, is trying something new in this year's municipal election, which is the 26th of October. Voters can fill out what they call service ballots to connect them to opportunities in the community. You know about this?

Speaker: I, I have heard a little bit about this and I believe it's something that's been inspired by MASS LBP and also supported by the Metcalf Foundation and I understand it is a service ballot where when you vote, you're also registering where you're interested in volunteering within your local community and I think it is a pretty innovative idea that the municipality is helping to enable a deeper understanding around where people have a skill or an interest and then they're helping to play that role of matching them into opportunities in that municipality. I think it's definitely something that is, uh, an innovative solution.

STEVE: Certainly, that direct connection between volunteerism and democracy right there.

Speaker: 100% and the other direction, just to be honest is, it's a municipal election right now in the province of Ontario. Everybody who's got a sign out there is dependent on volunteers who are helping them knock those signs into the ground, knock on doors, ask for resources to run that campaign, so I just, volunteering is very present in the electoral cycle.

STEVE: Gotcha. Yes, sir? Please.

Charles Tussell: Hi, my name is Charles Tussell from Sudbury, an ODSP recipient. My question could go to anyone who would like to answer this. Or more of a statement, I should say. 2012 was the year I got more involved in the community and because of cuts and austerity to ODSP recipients at the time under the Liberal Government, one of the cuts was the $100 work-related benefit and bus pass coverage for volunteering. Um. That was gone and the point of having it was to encourage us to volunteer and get more involved in community and then that would be like a nice resume to have work later on in the future. What's your take on this kind of cut if it should like come back because he cut a lot of stuff in 2012 because of having too much of a deficit. It was overwhelming for him to figure out sort of speak. So, I want to hear your feedback on what's your take if it should, like, come back this work-related benefit, $100 a month, and monthly bus pass fully covered for volunteering.

STEVE: Let me just make sure I've got the details right here, Charles. You said it happened in 2012?

Charles Tussell: Yeah.

STEVE: So, this was a provincial program?

Charles Tussell: Yes, for ODSP recipients. We used to get rewarded for volunteering so many hours a week. I forget what was the number. Maybe 20 a week. I can't be entirely sure, but--

STEVE: Okay.

Charles Tussell: Nonetheless, it was like giving us an incentive for volunteering. You know what I mean? It was like encouraging.

STEVE: Right. Right. Yes, the Provincial Liberals were in power in 2012. Anybody got a view on this they want to share?

LOIS: I didn't even know about.

Speaker: Uh. I didn't know about it either. I would say, Charles, I mean, the fact that there was a benefit that was enabling volunteering, I think especially for folks who are on ODSP is probably something that had some positive benefits, but I am not familiar with the tax benefit or the ODSP benefit rather, yeah.

STEVE: ODSP. The Disability Support Program. Yeah, okay. Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Charles. We hadn't heard about that before. Yes, sir.

Mark Evans: Hi, my name is Mark Evans and I'm with the Lions Club. And we have five dens in Sudbury and we generate between 100 and $150,000 of income towards charities within the city. And we have numerous things like, um, for example, uh, some dens provide meals for, um, they'll go into from the food bank and provide sandwiches and soup for people, they'll have dinners for seniors, Christmas stuff, and we'll do stuff like road cleanup and we have a community garden. We provided, my den provided probably 300 meals, vegetables for the Blue Door Cafe and uh--

STEVE: And you're all volunteers?

Mark Evans: And it's also a club for we do stuff. But the issue we have now is we struggle for membership like everybody else. I mean, we have stuff like the telethon, which is a lot of fun and I participate in that. And but, the issue is that this money. People, I mean, we talk about young people, but I think anybody who's going to retire or soon to retire, I want you, because you probably don't have enough to do. I didn't become a Lion until I was 70.

STEVE: 70?

Mark Evans: 70. So, I walked in, I said, "Look at all these guys with white hair," so I fit right in, but I mean, it's a very, um, in many ways, inviting organization, but the issue is how do we get the information out there and get more people say 50, 55, whatever? I mean, it's nice to have young people, but I mean, as I know, young people don't like hanging out with old people.

STEVE: (Laughing) Well, anybody who wants to hang out with the Lions, Mark Evans is your guy to see after the fact. You're on television right now. We have a sign-up paper. A bunch of people will see you on this as well. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

Mark Evans: Thank you.

Audience Member: Okay. Can I say something to that?

STEVE: Please!

Audience Member: I think that that goes back to the point of earlier when we were talking about meeting people where they're at and so, how is it that you advertise these service organizations that you need to expose people and where are people that are 50 to 55 right now? They're on Facebook. Right? So, you need someone that's going to be able to create ads for you. You need someone who's going to be able to create graphics for you and maybe at 70, that's not your thing and that's completely fair, but I'm pretty skilled with Canva now. Like, I can do that for you, right? And so, it's about like that intergenerational opportunity to work together even if it's just for that. If you find someone who can help you get the word out to then go after the audience that is going to help you then continue those groups, because, I mean, the Lions Group is so instrumental and the work that happens in this community. It's a pillar and how does that continue? Because I think often about the ways in which we prop up our community through volunteerism and it's organizations like the Lions Club that do that for us and so they need to stay.

Speaker: And two things I would just add. 100% to that and organizations like Lois could help organizations like the Lions Club around volunteer engagement tools and resources and knowledge and know-how. So, I would encourage the Lions Club to connect to the local, um, the local volunteer centre if there is one because they could help you with your volunteer engagement

Audience: strategies and maybe help you find the 55 age group. That was my one thing.

My second thing is I actually think young people are yearning to hang out with old people. I actually think old people are yearning for the connection with young people, and there is something really magical that happens when that actually comes together, so, um, if there's any way you can think of intergenerational engagement or intergenerational practices and we love to help you to figure out how to do that because we've got some tools and resources also, but we've lost grandparents, we've lost the connectivity with grandparents in our community. We have to figure out how to bring those connections back because there is a lot of magic that happens in a grandparent relationship.

STEVE: I think you're 110% right on that one. When I see, for example, World War II veterans go to schools and interact with the kids, that connection is magic. It really is. It's totally magic. Yep.

Yes, please. You're next.

Chris: Hello, my name is Chris and I'm from here in Sudbury, Ontario. So, living as a person with a disability, I've been volunteering in accessibility-related organizations from a very young age. Pretty much my whole life. Uh. And I've been doing that for quite a while and I'm extremely fortunate though to find my way into paid work in accessibility advocacy. My last two jobs have both been in that field.

I know the Senator touched on this briefly when she was here, but I would like to hear the rest of the panel's thoughts on paid work in a cause that you truly believe in that benefits the community versus volunteering for that same cause.

Amanda: You know, I can actually speak from that from personal experience and so, um, when I started PoliticsNOW as a classroom teacher, I was teaching Grade 8 at the time and it was an idea that had come to me that from volunteer work that I had done on federal campaigns that I was like, "Oh, I have these skills. I want to continue to use them. How can I give them away to benefit of the most amount of people possible?" And that was where that idea was born.

And I bootstrapped it. I didn't know my way around Canva in 2018 when I started this, but I learned. I didn't know how to design a website, but I learned. I didn't know how to design a program, but I learned. And through that experience and the tolerance that I gained from failing publicly a lot, it really built something in me that then in 2023, when I was ready to leave the classroom, I ended up being able to get my dream job and it's those skills in conjunction with the work skills that I'd gotten from the classroom that really gives me the opportunity to give back to my community both at work, but then continue this work as well with their support and that's just, like, that's magic, right? Like, that's the dream that I get to work at a place that I very much love and that they encourage me to give back my time because that's instilled in the company itself.

And I think that you're really on to something and I think that when we think about volunteering, it's about developing the skills, it's about building out your networks because I think about like, you know, when I was bootstrapping this, there were women across the country that were doing very similar things in their communities. We built that network and now they're directors of organizations and CEOs of organizations and they call me in the work that I'm doing and we're supporting each other professionally now, which is also really cool. But that's built over the connection of ten years and it takes time and I would not have gotten the many blessings in my life in 2026 if I had not gotten that one idea where I was like, "You know what? This doesn't exist and I'm just gonna do it. I'll just figure it out."

STEVE: Thanks, Chris. Appreciate that question. Okay, who's next?

Theresa Nyabeze: Good evening. Hello, hello. Um. My name is Theresa Nyabeze and I am here representing the Afro-Heritage Association of Sudbury. I'm the president. But also I'm a Sudburian. A very, very proud Sudburian.

Um. My comment to you folks. I just want to commend you for acknowledging that, you know, volunteerism does take, it's a costly thing to do and there's a lot of money invested by people who volunteer. Be it your fuel. You name it and whatnot, so thank you for taking that lid off of volunteering because it's a privileged thing to be able to do in many cases.

What I wanted to ask you is what are your thoughts on proper compensation of volunteers. Now, I'm not talking about a transactional relationship where you volunteer, you get money, but especially looking at you, Amanda, I think of people with little kids who want to give, but maybe babysitting is an issue or somebody who has to take a bus. So, what I would like, I think maybe what I would like to propose to people is as we think about volunteerism, what are your thoughts about just logical and proper compensation of volunteers so that you are not tone-deaf to the fact that somebody had to take a bus or maybe somebody didn't eat a meal and I'm really excited that you're here from Volunteer Canada because I think that lens of not seeing that compensation as transactional but logical and coming and just getting out of the place of privilege of saying, "Well, you know, if you want to volunteer, you should do it 100% for free," but recognizing that people have real bills and real challenges in real life.

STEVE: That's a great point, Theresa. Thanks, okay. Um. Let me start with you. Do you provide a meal when people come to volunteer or that kind of thing?

Panelist: I know, especially when I was on the Poverty Reduction Network, we always had food because people who are living in poverty often hadn't eaten and struggled to get through a meeting because they hadn't been fed and there were some compensations, but I think that a lot of groups that are feeling the crunch financially are saying, "Oh, my gosh! We need volunteers and where are we going to find the money for this?"

And it becomes a question of equity. Do you offer it to some people and do you screen them? Do they need an income supplement of some kind and I think people really struggle with how to balance that.

Volunteer Canada Representative: What I would love to see is the end of a charge for police checks because, yeah.

STEVE: So, when there's a police check of a volunteer, the volunteer, him or herself, has to pay for that?

Volunteer Canada Representative: It used to be free, but then police started to outsource it to a third party who charges a fee and you can't, it's very hard to get around it.

STEVE: How much is it? Do you know?

Volunteer Canada Representative: It was $35 I think in Ontario.

STEVE: 35 bucks. Okay.

Volunteer Canada Representative: And it depends on where you live and it's the number one thing we believe could modernize and make it easier for Canadians to volunteer and participate is to streamline the police record check system.

STEVE: But, okay, streamline means what?

Volunteer Canada Representative: Uh. There are lots of great examples around the world. One of which we studied through a Deloitte study is the Blue Card System in Australia where there is a back and central administrative capacity so that instead of if I volunteer today for my hockey association and I volunteer tomorrow at my local school, I need two criminal record checks.

Um. So, how do we streamline that in a way that the criminal record check follows the individual and the individual having to follow and trace the, we need to safeguard everyone involved in a volunteering experience. I think that's really critical, so we need to ensure that we're thinking about safety around volunteering and we can do that in ways that are simple and effective to the context of the individuals, but there are some very simple ways we would recommend to the Federal Government to streamline the criminal record check system.

STEVE: Gotcha.

Amanda: Can I just add something to one of your first points, Theresa? I think that what's really important that we have to think about is when we volunteer and we get to know our neighbours, we're also bringing different perspectives to the table, right?

And so, that might not be something that someone who doesn't have young children thinks about, but it's something that I think about because I have to access childcare and so that's something that I offer and I've built into the programming. But I might not think about other checks of accessibility because that might not be something through the lens that I'm evaluating and that's why it's so important that we do come together and that's one of the things that we get out of it.

But it's also instrumental in the way that we're building our programs is that we're looking at the different perspectives that exist around the table, we're taking those into account and we're ensuring that that is part of what it is that we're being able to give back to people.

THERESA: Yes, amazing. Thank you.

(Chuckling)

Thank you.

STEVE: Thanks for that, Theresa. Okay, you get the last question tonight.

Louise Bay: Oh, my name is Louise Bay. Bonsoir et hello. Um, my first involvement actually was at thirteen years old in high school in the library with Amnesty International. I got to visit the world sitting at a table writing letters and seeing how and who's in jail and why. As in a woman writing a poem.

Um. I continued volunteering. The Women's Centre, the Rape Crisis Centre, the university radio station here, Aboriginal Voices Radio, La Cooperative radiophonique de Toronto, um, for years and years. Um. Canada World Youth, so I got to work in Quebec and Africa in agriculture for $1 a day.

Sudbury had 21% unemployment at the end of my high school. The interest rates were 25% and jeans were $50 at Eaton's. So, when I hear now everything's expensive, some things are and some things are now. This was $2 Closet Share. $1. Women's Centre shoes, $1.

STEVE: Louise, can I just ask you? When you did that Amnesty International letter writing thing, was that a high school program?

Louise Bay: No, it was, it was, yeah, Amnesty sorry. It was my high school librarian that was amazing.

STEVE: And that librarian turned you onto the notion that you could help in that way?

Louise Bay: And I continued on. I got a certificate from a university (Unclear) I've never seen in the peace movement. With ploughshares. I forgot about that one. Um. But I did Canada World Youth with $1 a day. I know earlier, um, it led to a 27, I got an appointment to advise a Minister of Community Social Services, uh, Tony Silipo and Marion Boyd and Bob Rae. Um. I think it was a $9 billion budget. I forget the exact math.

Um, but when it mentioned about what Katimavik has done, what I want to say is, um, children, most youth or older people--this might not be a pickle, maybe it is--are in a city now. Most people either can't afford to travel or if they can, they go to places to visit with tourists. I think getting people out to, I know Katimavik was tricultural; Francophone community, Anglophone community, and Indigenous community. Um. I think getting youth out of cities, out of their basements and off the computer is super essential.

I still have muscles and I'm really old now. I know how to carry water on my head working in Africa, I've made bricks and the tricultural connection of Katimavik was exquisite because they talk about them and them and so many people I remember somebody in Toronto telling me, "I like how you speak French. Not like the other ones."

Okay, yep. So, I think Katimavik having that, the trilogy, I don't if that's sounding, but if the Francophone community, Anglophone community, and Indigenous community, and usually, it was in smaller,

LOUISE: So it gets people in the communities getting to know who they are. Not about them. And getting them off the screen. I'm sorry, we need to be active and it's really good to do webpages. You can't tell, but I've been wearing contacts and glasses since I was four and people, and I can't see it.

STEVE: Louise, you know what, Louise? You are going to be terrific once you learn how to come out of your shell a little bit.

ALL: (Laughing)

LOUISE: Oh! Just a minute.

AMANDA: Oh, what's happening? I can do that, too.

STEVE: Uh-oh! Here we go. (Laughing)

LOUISE: (Speaks French) Building sense.

STEVE: Parfait. Thank you for--

LOUISE: But I think Katimavik is bringing youth and even maybe having, um, a post-retirement Katimavik. Because if you can't afford to gravel, graduate, I mean, if they can't afford school, maybe Katimavik can pay your first-year tuition. Like, because then it would, and you would come to university of college or whatever training with all that knowledge and um--

STEVE: Louise, you are a superstar and I'm giving you the last word tonight, okay. Thank you very much for coming to the microphone and sharing your views.

LOUISE: I love public broadcasting. TVO, CBC.

STEVE: All right, thank you very much. That's great.

ALL: (Clapping)

STEVE: Okay, let me give 20 seconds to each of you. Leave us with a thought tonight going forward. Megan.

MEGAN: I think that the future for volunteering needs to be reimagined by all of us. I think we have it in us to think bold like the Senator said and we need to think about a whole-of-society response to uplifting volunteering at the highest levels of our society which means if it's important to us it needs to be embedded in the Canadian values and we need to think about how we're investing in it and how we're structuring it across our communities.

STEVE: Amanda.

AMANDA: I think that this while it sometimes can be, feeling like a very scary, isolating time, it also means that it's a time to be bold and to take action and to try something new and I would say to anyone that volunteering has given me the greatest blessings and the best friends and has made my life much richer and so anybody who's looking for any of that in their life, I think that this would be a great opportunity to do something really cool.

STEVE: Lois.

LOIS: If you volunteer, thank you. If you volunteer, pull people into it. Let's make it contagious. Tell people why it's great and keep us going and help build the movement. That's what we're trying to do.

STEVE: Excellent. That's our time tonight, everybody. And I want to do a few thank you's just before we go. First and foremost, to this audience. We know you have a lot of different options for spending your time and we are really delighted that you chose to spend some of it with us tonight here at Science North, so thank you very much. Particularly those of you who stepped up to the microphone and asked us questions.

STEVE: To the team here at Science North, big ups. We just absolutely love this cavern that we have been situated in tonight. It's inspiring. It's just wonderful. To our TVO crew, technical director Mark Ford. Director Sheldon Osmond. Series producer Hilary Clark. Thank you to the three of you and your team as well.

STEVE: As always to our founding sponsor, the Wilson Foundation and its late benefactor, Red Wilson. Red, whom I've known for 40 years, just passed away, oh, I don't know, about a year ago and how much did ya'll pay to come in here tonight? Zero. Yeah. Thanks, Red Wilson for that. Red Wilson thought it was important to have these conversations and that money not be a barrier to having them and as a result, these conversations and our audience participation has always been free. So, thanks to him so much.

ALL: (Clapping)

STEVE: And also ups to Eric Jackman, the Jackman Foundation also contributes additional funding to this and we're grateful to him as well. For more from this series, you can go to this website. TVO.org/TVOTodayLive or our YouTube channel. That's YouTube.com/@tvotoday.

STEVE: And finally, I know this audience wants to join me in thanking not just the Senator, but these three marvellous guests for joining us here this evening at Science North. Thank you three very much.

ALL: (Audience clapping)

STEVE: I'm Steve Paikin. Thanks and good night from Sudbury, Ontario.