引言:最高法院的“影子法案”
Michael: 来自**《纽约时报》,我是Michael Baro**。这是《The Daily》。在过去十年中,最高法院一直依赖一种仓促而秘密的制度,对从移民到总统权力等一切事务做出重大裁决。现在,一项《时报》调查首次揭示了该制度开始的确切时刻。今天,Jodie Caner和Adam Liptac将带我们了解重塑最高法院的五天。今天是4月20日,星期一。Jody,Adam,终于在《The Daily》的一集中聚首。感谢二位的到来。
Original English
Michael: From the New York Times, I'm Michael Baro. This is The Daily. For the past decade, the Supreme Court has relied on a rushed and secretive system to make major rulings on everything from immigration to presidential power. Now, for the first time, a Times investigation brings to light the precise moment when that system began. Today, Jodie Caner and Adam Liptac take us inside the five days that remade the Supreme Court. It's Monday, April 20th. Jody, Adam, together at last in one episode of The Daily. Thank you for being here.
Jody: 很高兴能和您在一起。
Original English
Jody: Great to be with you.
Adam: 很高兴来到这里,Michael。所以你们两位联手进行了一项调查,这项调查似乎始于一个真正的好奇心,那就是最高法院影子法案的起源是什么。那么,请告诉我们为什么你们都被吸引去回答这个问题。
Original English
Adam: It's good to be here, Michael. So you two joined forces for an investigation that seems to begin with a genuine curiosity which is what are the origins of the Supreme Court's shadow docket. So tell us why you were both drawn to answering that question.
“影子法案”的运作方式
Jody: 这是一个非常常识性的问题,Michael,因为如果我们审视法院的裁决,他们正在影子法案上进行大量工作。这些是非常重要的裁决,它们绕过了法院许多经过时间考验的程序。所以我们在这里要问的是,让我们回到最初,法院是如何开始这样做的?这从何而来?Adam,我知道我们在这个节目中已经谈论过很多关于影子法案的话题,但请提醒我们它是什么,更重要的是,就像Jody刚才说的,它是如何绕过最高法院经过时间考验的程序的。
Original English
Jody: It's a pretty common sense question, Michael, because if we look at the court's rulings, they are doing an enormous amount of work on the shadow docket. These are really important rulings that bypass a lot of the time tested steps of the court. So part of what we're asking here is let's go back to the beginning. How did the court start doing this? Where does this come from? Adam, I know we've talked on the show about the shadow docket quite a bit, but just remind us what it is and more importantly how, as Jod just said, it bypasses the timetested steps of the Supreme Court.
Adam: 那么,理解这一点的一个好方法是将其与法院处理案件的常规方式进行对比。律师们称之为法院的实质性案件审理清单。这正是我们习惯的方式。法官们会花很多时间考虑他们要审理哪些案件,他们会收到简报。如果他们决定审理一个案件,他们会收到另一轮简报和支持性简报。然后他们会听取辩论,然后坐在一起讨论和投票。然后他们会交换意见稿,五份、十份、十五份意见稿、同意意见和反对意见。在所有这些程序经过大约一年时间之后,他们会发布一个有理由的裁决,可能是100页长,附有许多同意意见和反对意见。这是经过深思熟虑的产物。当然,这些裁决是约束全国的法律,为下级法院提供指导,告诉诉讼当事人他们必须如何行事。这就是我们熟悉的最高法院。
Original English
Adam: So, a good way to think about this is to contrast it with the usual way the court handles cases. Uh, lawyers call this the court's merits docket. And this is what we're kind of used to. The justices spend a lot of time considering which cases they're going to hear and they get briefs on that. And if they decide to hear a case, they get another round of briefs and supporting briefs. And then they hear arguments and then they sit together and discuss and vote. And then they exchange drafts, five, 10, 15 drafts of opinions and concurrences and dissents. And after all this process winds itself out for like a year, they issue a reasoned decision could be a 100 pages long with lots of concurrences and dissents. And it's the product of great care and deliberation.
Adam: 影子法案则绕过了所有这些。它在非常短的时间内,基于薄弱的简报,没有辩论,没有现场讨论。它导致了推理极少或根本没有推理的裁决。在过去十年中,这确实成为了法院业务的一个主要部分,包括在过去一年左右的一些裁决中,这些裁决赋予了特朗普总统巨大的自由裁量权和权力。
Original English
Adam: The shadow docket shortc circuits all of that. It happens in a very brief period of time on thin briefs, no arguments, no in-person deliberations. It gives rise to rulings with scant or no reasoning at all. And over the past 10 years, this has really become a major part of the court's business, including in some decisions over the past year or so that have awarded President Trump enormous leeway and power.
Michael: 最高法院越来越多地转向了这种影子法案。
Original English
Michael: Increasingly, the court has turned to this shadow docket.
Michael: 这是最高法院使用影子法案的指数级增长,比我们以前见过的任何情况都要多。今年到目前为止,他们已经使用了20次,而今年甚至还没有结束。
Original English
Michael: This is an exponential increase in the Supreme Court's use of the shadow docket, more than anything we have ever seen before. They've used it 20 times so far this year and the year's not even over yet.
Michael: 对影子法案感到疯狂。
Original English
Michael: Insane at the shadow docket.
Michael: 批评者担心的是他们说...
Original English
Michael: And what critics have worried about is they've said
Michael: 制造一份厚厚的诉状的竞赛正在改变所有这些案件的速度和节奏。
Original English
Michael: the race to create a fat plea is changing the speed and rhythm of all of these cases.
Michael: 为什么最高法院没有以其通常谨慎而深思熟虑的节奏运作?
Original English
Michael: Why is the Supreme Court not moving at its usual careful deliberate pace?
Adam: 从抽象概念上讲,最高法院处理紧急情况是没有问题的。我们在过去五六年里看到的问题是法官们干预的方式。
Original English
Adam: There's no problem in the abstract with the idea that the Supreme Court gets emergencies. The problem we've seen in the last five or six years is the way the justices are intervening.
Adam: 而且你还会从法官那里得到这种粗略的、两三句话的推理。
Original English
Adam: And also you get this kind of back of the envelope reasoning from the justices two three sentences.
Adam: 这些裁决不是有理由的裁决。它们没有告诉我们为什么。我的意思是,五段话并不能告诉我们为什么。
Original English
Adam: Those decisions are not reason decisions. They don't tell us why. I mean five paragraphs doesn't tell us why.
Michael: 为什么最高法院对如此重大的裁决不提供任何理由?
Original English
Michael: Why is the Supreme Court not providing any reasoning for such major decisions?
Jody: 但紧急审理清单或影子法案是危险的。你匆忙上诉法院,没有充分的简报,没有充分的辩论。因此,批评者一直担心裁决的质量。是否有可能在如此缩短的程序中发布一个真正可靠的裁决,以及与公众缺乏沟通,对吗?因为这些迅速达成、几乎没有解释的裁决,从影子法案中出现,提出了一个非常重要的问题。这个国家最高法院是否匆忙裁决是基于,因为我们真的不知道,直觉、个人喜好、党派本能,所有这些都是一个缓慢、深思熟虑、审慎的制度旨在避免的。我们不知道。
Original English
Jody: But the emergency docket or shadow docket is a dangerous thing. You run to the court. You don't have full briefing. You don't have full argument. So critics have been concerned both about the quality of the rulings. Is it possible to issue a really solid ruling in such a shortened process and also the lack of communication with the public, right? Because these rapidly reached, barely explained rulings that emerged from the shadow docket raise a really important question. is the country's highest court rushing to rule based on because we don't really know gut instinct, personal peak, partisan instinct, all the things that a slow, deliberate, judicious system is meant to avoid. We don't know.
“影子法案”的争议与临时性
Adam: 嗯,影子法案,即紧急审理清单的辩护者会说几件事。其一,这类命令有悠久的历史,这是真的。法院在需要非常快速行动时,经常会介入,比如在死刑案件中,当有人即将被处决,或者在选举争议中,你需要知道周二的答案是什么。而且,偶尔在像堕胎这样谨慎的领域,法院也发布过紧急命令,但它并未将紧急审理清单用于解决重大的国家政策倡议。我想说的第二点,或者说这些命令的辩护者会说,它们是临时的。它们并非旨在最终解决案件。它们只是在案件通过下级法院,回到最高法院期间,维持现状。
Original English
Adam: Well, defenders of the shadow docket, the emergency docket will say a couple of things. One is that these kinds of orders have a long history, and that's true. The court has often interceded when it needs to move very fast, like in a death penalty case when someone's about to be put to death or an election dispute where you need to know by Tuesday what the answer is. And also occasionally in discreet areas like abortion, the court has issued emergency orders, but it's not used the emergency docket to address major national policy initiatives. The second thing I'd say or the defenders of these orders would say is that they're temporary. They're not meant to conclusively resolve the case. They're just holding the status quo while the case moves through the lower courts, comes back to the Supreme Court.
Adam: 所以它们名义上是临时的,但实际上,它们常常不仅具有后果性,而且是决定性的。
Original English
Adam: So they're nominally temporary, but as a practical matter, very often they're not only consequential, but conclusive
Adam: 最终解决问题,因为如果法院说你可以驱逐某人,或者你可以驱逐数十万人,或者你可以扣留援助资金,或者你可以解雇数千人……
Original English
Adam: finally resolving the matter because if the court says you can deport someone or you can deport hundreds of thousands of people or you can withhold aid money or you can fire thousands of people,
Michael: 你说的是特朗普时代的影子法案案件。
Original English
Michael: you're talking about shadow docket cases of the Trump era.
Adam: 是的,这些不是假设。这些是实际案例。这些都非常难以撤销。你可以说它是临时的,但如果他们想象它回到法院,并且想象法院说,你知道吗,实际上特朗普政府错了,那么撤销这些裁决是非常困难的。
Original English
Adam: Yeah, these are not hypotheticals. These are actual cases. Those are very hard to undo. You can say it's temporary, but if they imagine it goes back to the court and imagine the court says, you know what, actually the Trump administration was wrong, it's very hard to undo those rulings.
Michael: 所以即使它们本质上是临时的,它们在实践中也极其有意义。
Original English
Michael: So even if they are temporary in nature, they are extremely meaningful in practice.
Jody: 是的。所以问题是,在这些案件中,最高法院内部究竟发生了什么?Adam和我想看看我们能否找到答案,而我们做到了。
Original English
Jody: Yes. And so the question is what is actually happening inside the Supreme Court with these cases? and Adam and I wanted to see if we could find out and we did.
Michael: 那么,那句诱人的话到底意味着什么?你们做到了。嗯,《纽约时报》已经获得了并公布了大法官之间的16页机密通信,这意味着他们私下的往来揭示了影子法案的起源。通过这些文件,我们可以窃听大法官们在他们放弃经过时间考验的司法程序规范,并陷入一种新的运作方式的确切时刻。
Original English
Michael: And what is that very tantalizing sentence actually mean? You did. Well, The New York Times has obtained and has published 16 pages of confidential correspondence among the justices, meaning their private back and forth that reveal the origins of the shadow docket. Through these papers, we can eavesdrop on the justices at the exact moment that they are abandoning time-tested norms of judicial procedure and backing themselves into a new way of doing business.
Michael: 这种新方式就是影子法案。
Original English
Michael: That new way being the shadow docket.
Jody: 完全正确。
Original English
Jody: Exactly.
清洁能源计划案:分歧的开端
Michael: 那么,Adam,请告诉我们Jody刚才提到的这些文件的背景。
Original English
Michael: So, Adam, give us the context for these documents that Jody just mentioned.
Adam: 那么,这些文件涉及2016年奥巴马总统的清洁能源计划案。您可能还记得,清洁能源计划是奥巴马在其第二个任期末期为应对气候变化所做的尝试。
Original English
Adam: So, these documents concern a case in 2016 arising from President Obama's clean power plan. The clean power plan, you may recall, was Obama's attempt late in his second term to do something about climate change.
Adam: 他未能让立法通过国会。他指示美国环境保护署(EPA)发布规定,这些规定将从根本上将美国电力系统从煤炭转向更清洁的能源。这当然让工业界和红州感到疯狂,他们对此提出质疑,这并不奇怪。他们去了哥伦比亚特区巡回法院,并提出了两件事。其一,他们的大要求是请宣布这个清洁能源计划非法,未经国会授权。但第二,他们要求在此期间暂停它。不要让它生效。在诉讼进行期间,你暂时冻结它。而哥伦比亚特区巡回法院表示,关于第一点,我们将迅速安排辩论,我们将准备好给你一个关于该计划是否合法的答案。但关于第二点,我们不会暂停它。我们将让该计划开始实施。然后,挑战者,即各州和商业团体,做了一些不寻常的事情。他们去了最高法院,说在任何下级法院考虑清洁能源计划的合法性之前,他们对最高法院说,请暂停它。请冻结它,直到此诉讼通过哥伦比亚特区巡回法院并返回最高法院。在此期间,清洁能源计划不应发生。
Original English
Adam: He'd failed to get legislation through Congress. He instructed the EPA to issue regulations and these regulations would fundamentally shift the American power system away from coal and toward cleaner sources of energy. This of course drove industry crazy and red states crazy and they challenged it and that's not surprising. And they go to the DC circuit and they ask for two things. One, their big ask is to please hold this clean power plan unlawful, unauthorized by Congress. But second, they ask in the meantime, please halt it. Don't let it go into place. You freeze it for the time being while the litigation goes forward. And the DC Circuit says, on the first point, we'll set it down for a quick argument and we'll get ourselves in position to give you an answer on whether the program is illegal or not. On the second thing though, we're not going to pause it. We're going to let the program start. And then the challengers, the states and business groups do something unusual. They go to the Supreme Court and say, before any lower court has considered the lawfulness of the Clean Power Plan, they say to the Supreme Court, please halt this. Please freeze this for as long as it takes for this litigation to go through the DC circuit back up to the Supreme Court. In the meantime, the clean power plan should not be happening.
Jody: 案中所有人都知道,这是一个前所未有的请求。Jody,这个前所未有的请求,来自那些不希望奥巴马政府的清洁能源计划继续存在的人,它提交到了最高法院。如果我没记错的话,当时最高法院的力量是相当均衡的。
Original English
Jody: And everybody involved in the case knew that this was an unprecedented request. And Jody, this unprecedented request by those who do not want the Clean Power Plan from the Obama administration to survive arrives at a Supreme Court, if memory serves, that's pretty evenly split at the moment.
Adam: 正确。这是一个5比4的法院,倾向于由共和党任命的法官,但那个时代的人说,那时的最高法院真的不同。它充满了辩论。Anthony Kennedy大法官是共和党任命的,但他也是摇摆票,那个时代有人称他为“一个可被说服的人”。你永远不知道他会如何裁决。就在此之前,他对同性婚姻投了赞成票。
Original English
Adam: Correct. It's a five4 court that leans towards Republicanapp appointed justices, but people from that era say the Supreme Court was really different back then. It was alive with debate. Justice Anthony Kennedy was a Republican appointee, but he was also the swing vote and somebody from that era called him a quote persuadable person. You never knew exactly which way he would come out. And just before this, he had said yes to gay marriage,
Adam: 对吗?即使他是共和党任命的,他最终却成为该案件中出人意料的决定性一票。总而言之,这是一个不可预测的最高法院,很多事情都有可能发生。
Original English
Adam: right? Even though he was a Republican appointee, he ends up being the somewhat surprising decisive vote in that case. All to say this is a unpredictable Supreme Court where a lot of things are possible.
Jody: 完全正确。
Original English
Jody: Exactly.
首席大法官罗伯茨的备忘录与不满
Michael: 那么,这个非常势均力敌的法院,Adam,对这个紧急请求作何反应?
Original English
Michael: So how does this very evenly split court react Adam to this emergency request?
Adam: 嗯,它送到了首席大法官John Roberts的办公室。他是监督哥伦比亚特区巡回法院的法官。所以这些事情首先会送到他那里。在通常情况下,案件所涉律师预计会发生的是他会简单地驳回它,驳回申请,或者可能将其提交给他的同事,然后他们会集体驳回它。
Original English
Adam: Well, it arrives in the chambers of Chief Justice John Roberts. He's the justice who oversees the DC circuit. So these things go to him in the first instance. And in the ordinary course, what the lawyers involved in the case expected would happen was that he would simply deny it, deny the application or or maybe send it to his colleagues and they would collectively deny it.
Michael: 嗯。
Original English
Michael: Mhm.
Adam: 但他所做的却是,他开始写一份备忘录,告诉其他法官他们应该非常认真地对待此事。
Original English
Adam: But what he does instead is he starts writing a memo telling the other justices that they should take this very seriously. H
Michael: 这引发了一场为期5天的冲刺,在此期间,法官们将修改最高法院几个世纪以来的惯例。我们稍后回来。那么,Adam和Jody,我们现在进入了这个故事的阶段,法官们正在这五天内交换你们挖掘出来的备忘录。Adam,让我们从首席大法官John Roberts的开场白开始。请告诉我们他的第一份备忘录。
Original English
Michael: and that sets off a 5-day sprint in which the justices are going to revise centuries of Supreme Court practice. We'll be right back. So, Adam and Jody, we're now in the phase of this story where the justices are exchanging these memos that you have unearthed over these five days. And Adam, let's start with this opening salvo from the Chief Justice, John Roberts. Tell us about his first memo.
Adam: 那么,这是一份三页单倍行距的备忘录,抬头写着“首席大法官办公室”。他向同事解释了他认为奥巴马计划需要被阻止的原因。他说这将给各州和煤炭工业带来巨大的负担。
Original English
Adam: So, this is a three-page single spaced memo on letterhead that says the chambers of the chief justice. And he explains to his colleagues why he thinks the Obama plan needs to be halted. He says it's going to impose enormous burdens on states and on the coal industry.
Adam: 他说没有时间可以浪费,因为他们必须立即开始遵守清洁能源计划的要求。他说总统赖以授权此举的法律,即1970年清洁空气法案,并未明确赋予他这项权力。法院喜欢说,除非总统明确拥有某项权力,否则它就违反了重大问题原则,是无效的。
Original English
Adam: He says there's no time to waste because they're going to have to start complying with the requirements of the Clean Power Plan right away. He says that the law the president relies on to authorize this move, the Clean Air Act of 1970, does not clearly give him that power. And the court likes to say that unless a president clearly has the power, it runs a foul of the major questions doctrine and is no good.
Michael: 嗯。
Original English
Michael: Mhm.
Adam: 他说**美国环境保护署(EPA)**不久前曾戏弄过我们,我们不会再让他们得逞。
Original English
Adam: And he says the EPA has kind of tricked us not long ago and we're not going to let him do that to us again.
Michael: 如何戏弄?他说了什么?
Original English
Michael: Tricked how? What does he say?
Adam: 就在这一切发生前的几个月,法院在一个涉及汞排放的案件中判决**美国环境保护署(EPA)**败诉。那个案件审理了三年,三年半。
Original English
Adam: Just a few months before all of this, the court had ruled against the EPA in a case involving mercury emissions. That case had been litigated over three years, three and a half years,
Michael: 正常的最高法院程序。
Original English
Michael: the normal Supreme Court process
Adam: 在正常的最高法院程序中,没有人给予挑战者暂缓执行。所以他们开始遵守规定,同时诉讼继续进行。最高法院判决美国环境保护署(EPA)败诉,第二天,美国环境保护署(EPA)官员发表了一篇博客文章,大意是说,这个最高法院的裁决非常好,但与此同时,该规定实际上已经生效,你们的裁决意义不大,这似乎让首席大法官非常恼火。他在备忘录末尾总结道:“在那个汞排放案件中没有暂缓执行,使得该机构有效地实施了一个我们认定为违法的重大计划。”
Original English
Adam: in the normal Supreme Court process and nobody had granted the challengers a stay. So they were starting to comply with the regulation as the litigation goes forward. The Supreme Court rules against the EPA and the next day the EPA official puts up a blog post and essentially says very nicely ruled against this Supreme Court, but in the meantime the rule has essentially gone into effect and your ruling doesn't mean very much and that seems to drive the Chief Justice crazy. He concludes at the end of the memo, "The absence of a stay in that Mercury case allowed the agency to effectively implement an important program we held to be contrary to law."
Adam: 你会感觉到他很生气,很恼火,他不会让这种事再次发生。Roberts在备忘录中告诉他的法官同事们,他不喜欢奥巴马政府在气候变化监管方面的做法。他认为他们很狡猾,而传统的缓慢法律程序让他们在这些法规方面显得有点狡猾。
Original English
Adam: And you have the sense that he's peeved, he's irked, and he's not going to let it happen again. M Roberts is telling his fellow justices in this memo, I don't like what I am seeing from the Obama administration when it comes to its efforts to regulate climate change. I think they're being sneaky and the traditional slow legal process is letting them be kind of sneaky when it comes to these regulations.
大法官们对速度与合法性的辩论
Jody: 是的。首席大法官可能认为回顾过去,他们本应暂停汞排放计划,因为它的推进速度相当快。但当你考虑到清洁能源计划时,法院是否需要快速行动就不那么明确了。大法官在一份备忘录中也表达了这一点,他在同一天回应Roberts的备忘录中写道。
Original English
Jody: Yes. And the chief justice may be right that in retrospect they should have paused the mercury plan which was pretty fastm moving but when you think about the clean power plan it's less clear that the court needs to act fast and justice says as much in a memo he writes responding to Roberts that same day
Jody: 他列出了清洁能源计划的时间线,该计划在六年内不要求行业做任何事情,直到2030年才要求完全合规。
Original English
Jody: he lays out the chronology of the clean power plan which doesn't require industry to do anything for 6 years and doesn't require total compliance until 2030,
Michael: 对吗?现在是2016年,所以还有相当长一段时间。
Original English
Michael: right? It's 2016, so that's quite some time,
Jody: 对吗?所以,他持与Roberts完全不同的态度。他认为有充足的时间以常规方式处理此事。他不知道为什么法院要做他所说的相当不寻常的事情。他说,在上诉法院审理其合法性期间,法院发布机构命令的暂缓执行是不寻常的。
Original English
Jody: right? So, he's taking a completely different attitude than Roberts. He's thinking there's plenty of time to do this in the usual course. And he doesn't know why the court should be doing what he says is quite unusual. He says it's unusual for the court to issue a state of agency's order during the time that the court of appeals is considering its lawfulness.
Michael: 对。正如你之前提到的,哥伦比亚特区巡回法院正在审理此事。
Original English
Michael: Right. As you mentioned earlier, the DC court, the circuit court is looking at this,
Jody: 对吗?所以,他说让它顺其自然。他不明白为什么要急。他会发布一个基本上说“哥伦比亚特区巡回法院,继续你们的工作。其他人,如果你们遇到问题,再回到我们这里”的命令。
Original English
Jody: right? So, he's saying let it play out. He doesn't understand what the rush is. And he would issue an order that basically says DC circuit, get on with your business. Everybody else, if you run into problems, come back to us.
Adam: 有趣的是首席大法官的反应。他第二天就回信了,他的语气有点变了。他似乎越来越恼火。他非常坚持法院需要继续阻止这项计划。我想特别读一下他的一段话。他说:“我承认这项暂缓请求的立场并不典型,但所寻求的审查被描述为迄今为止对电力部门施加的最昂贵的监管。”那么,我们来翻译一下。
Original English
Adam: What's so interesting is the chief justice's reaction. He writes right back the next day and his tone changes a little bit. He he seems to be getting more irritated. He's very insistent that the court needs to go ahead and block this. And I want to read you one quote of his in particular. He says, "I recognize that the posture of this stay request is not typical, but review is sought of what has been described as the most expensive regulation ever imposed on the power sector." So, let's translate that.
Adam: 他在第一句话中只是驳回了同事的程序性担忧。Brier大法官说:“嘿,这真的很不寻常。这有点不合规。”而首席大法官基本上说:“我知道,我知道,我知道,但这不重要,因为这项监管对各州和煤炭工业来说太昂贵了,我们必须做点什么。”因此,这份备忘录中贯穿的急躁感确实是由首席大法官现在就准备做出裁决这一事实所激发的。
Original English
Adam: He in that first phrase is just dismissing his colleagues procedural concern. Justice Brier is saying, "Hey, this is really unusual. Like, there's something irregular about this." And the Chief Justice is saying essentially, "I know, I know, I know, but it doesn't matter because this regulation is so expensive for states and the coal industry that we have to do something." So, the sense of impatience that runs through this memo is really animated by the fact that the chief justice, he's ready to rule now.
Adam: 他认为法院将批准审查。他认为法院将推翻清洁能源计划。他不懂为什么你需要让程序走完,因为他知道今天的答案是什么。他甚至写道,他相信如果法院最终在未来的某个日期真正审理此案,该法律将“极不可能存活”。换句话说,首席大法官在没有经过最高法院审查案件、审议案件的任何正常程序的情况下,就已经下定了决心,并且这个法院将判决这项法规败诉。
Original English
Adam: He thinks the court is going to grant review. He thinks the court is going to strike down this clean power plan. And he doesn't understand why you need to let the process run out cuz he knows what the answer is today. He even writes that he believes if the court were to ultimately at some future date hear the case on the merits for real, the law would be uh quote highly unlikely to survive. H in other words, the chief justice is saying without going through any of the normal process of how the Supreme Court reviews a case, deliberates, he's made up his mind and this court is going to find against this regulation.
Jody: 是的。这份备忘录还透露出,他又提到了美国环境保护署(EPA)。这份备忘录清楚地表明,他确实正在与奥巴马政府进行权力斗争。他觉得这个机构试图排挤法院,他不想让这种事再次发生。
Original English
Jody: Yes. And what's also revealing about this memo is that he mentions the EPA again. This memo makes it clear that he is truly in a power struggle with the Obama administration. He feels this agency has tried to sideline the court and he does not want it to happen again.
Adam: 是的。他直言不讳地说:“我坚信,旨在彻底改变国家经济的重要法规,应在提交之前由本法院进行检验,而不是成为既成事实。”你知道,在公众面前,我们习惯看到首席大法官表现出非常公正、威严的姿态。在这里,他像一台推土机一样行事。他对同事们说:“我们应该做一些前所未有的事情,而且应该快速完成。”
Original English
Adam: Yeah. And he says that in so many words. He says, "I am of the mind that a rule designed to transform a substantial swath of the nation's economy should be tested by this court before it is presented as a fatal comple. You know, in public, we're used to seeing the Chief Justice strike a very evenhanded, magisterial tone. Here, he's acting as a bulldozer. He's saying to his colleagues, "We should do something we have never done before, and we should do it fast."
Michael: 嗯。
Original English
Michael: Mhm.
大法官们的担忧:前所未有的威胁
Adam: 随后,同样是民主党任命的Elena Kagan大法官发出了警报。她提交了一份备忘录,反对首席大法官的立场,这份备忘录甚至更加直接。她说:“这些申请中寻求的救济的独特性质让我非常犹豫。”她用“前所未有”来形容首席大法官想做的事情。她还说:“我们在这个案件上需要更多时间。这很复杂。”她写道:“从实质内容上看,这是一个涉及复杂法规和监管制度的困难案件。”所以,换句话说,她说:“这很奇怪。我们确定要这样做吗?”
Original English
Adam: And then Justice Elena Kagan, also a Democratic appointee, sounds an alarm. She files a memo opposing the chief's stance. that is even more direct. She says, "The unique nature of the relief sought in these applications gives me real pause." She uses the word unprecedented to describe what the chief wants to do. And she also says, "We need more time on this case. This is complicated." She writes, "On the merits, this is a difficult case involving a complex statutory and regulatory regime." So, in other words, she's saying, "This is weird. Are we sure we want to do this?"
Michael: 这一切的严重性,根据这些备忘录,开始在所有相关人员心中显现。
Original English
Michael: The gravity of this all is, based on these memos, starting to dawn on everybody involved.
Jody: 对。Michael,请记住,这一切发生得有多快。我们现在只进行了三天关于这个具有巨大影响力的案件的讨论。下一个发言的是共和党任命的Samuel Alito大法官。他说,如果法院不采取行动,将损害其自身的合法性,这是一个相当大的说法。他说:“未能阻止这项规定,将使我们提供有意义的司法审查的能力,以及我们的机构合法性,归于无效。”所以,他们不仅意识到法院内部存在真正的冲突,他们不仅意识到他们正在走向不同的方向,他们也正在将这件事,或者至少Alito大法官正在将其描绘成对法院本身的一种几乎是存在性威胁。
Original English
Jody: Right. And remember, Michael, how fast this is moving. We are now only 3 days into this discussion of this hugely consequential case. And the next person to speak up is Justice Samuel Alo, a Republican appointee. And he says that if the court fails to act, it'll do damage to its own legitimacy, which is, you know, quite a big thing to say. He says, "A failure to stay this rule threatens to render our ability to provide meaningful judicial review and by extension our institutional legitimacy a nullity. So, not only is it dawning on them that there's a real clash in the court, not only is it dawning on them that they're moving in a different direction, they're also portraying this thing, or at least Justice Alto is, as an an almost existential threat to the court itself.
Adam: 所以,你可以看到Alito大法官在那里呼应了首席大法官的受辱感。首席大法官觉得自己被奥巴马政府,被美国环境保护署(EPA)玩弄了,而Alito大法官说:“看,奥巴马政府正试图排挤我们,让我们变得无关紧要。”
Original English
Adam: So, you can see there that Justice Alo is echoing the Chief Justice's sense of insult. The chief justice feels played by the Obama administration, the EPA, and Justice Alo is saying, "Look, the Obama administration is trying to sideline us to render us irrelevant."
Michael: Adam,我惊讶于首席大法官和Alito大法官所描述的因素似乎与法律无关,对吗?它们与宪法无关。他们似乎更专注于他们对奥巴马政府的不满,他们对最高法院地位的担忧,以及合法性问题,而这些因素我认为在法律上并不是驱动决策的因素。
Original English
Michael: Adam, I'm struck by the fact that both the Chief Justice and Justice Alo are describing factors that are not really about the law, right? They're not about the Constitution. They seem to be rather focused on their grievances with the Obama administration, their fears about the place of the Supreme Court, questions of legitimacy, and those are not factors that I think of as legally speaking animating a decision.
Adam: 但这就是这些文件如此非凡之处。它们打开了一扇窗,让我们看到法官们如何相互交流,他们如何坦诚地表达自己的真实意图。因此,它们与他们通常的裁决类型大相径庭,那些裁决就像一副面具。
Original English
Adam: But that's what's so extraordinary about these papers. They open a window on how the justices talk to each other, how frank they are really about their actual agendas. And so they're they're quite different in kind from their ordinary decisions which are a kind of mask
Adam: 那些裁决将法院描绘成只局限于事实、相关法律材料,并暗示它们会产生不可避免的法律结果。然而,法官也是人,他们生活在世上,他们会考虑很多事情。他们不在公开场合说,但事实证明,他们在私下里会说。
Original English
Adam: that portray the court as confining itself to the facts, the relevant legal materials and suggesting that they produce an inevitable legal result. Whereas the justices are human beings and they live in the world and they take account of a lot of stuff. They don't say it in public, but it turns out they say it in private.
Michael: 好的。接下来发生了什么?
Original English
Michael: Okay. And what happens next?
最终裁决与“影子法案”的深远影响
Adam: 那么,正如预期的那样,整个事情最终落到了摇摆票Anthony Kennedy大法官身上。在2月9日,辩论的第五天,他发出了一份非常简短的通知。它没说太多。只有三句话。他说他投票支持首席大法官,就这样。事情结束了。最高法院以五比四的票数裁决,几小时内,最高法院发布了命令。与我们刚才告诉你的所有这些私下辩论相比,它只有一段话。它是法律的套话。没有解释。
Original English
Adam: So the whole thing, as predicted, comes down to Justice Anthony Kennedy, the swing vote, and on February 9th, the fifth day of the debate, he sends a a very short note. It doesn't say much at all. It's three sentences. He says he's voting with the chief and that's it. It's over. The Supreme Court rules five to four and within hours the Supreme Court issues its order. In contrast to all this private debate that we've just told you about, it's just one paragraph. It's legal boilerplate. There is no explanation.
Adam: 法院所说的只是,他们正在阻止奥巴马总统标志性的环保倡议。
Original English
Adam: All the court says is that they are blocking President Obama's signature environmental initiative.
Michael: 所以这真的是一个给你们两位的开放性问题。既然你们已经能够撬开这个以前紧锁的影子法案诞生之盒,既然你们已经进入了这个新时代的第一个真实案例,你们最终从所见所闻中得出了什么结论?影子法案的批评者一直担心,法院在这种时间压力下,在没有充分简报、辩论和审议的情况下,无法做出最佳裁决。
Original English
Michael: So this is really a question to both of you. Now that you have been able to pry open this previously locked box of the birth of the shadow docket, now that you've gotten inside the first real case of this new era, what do you ultimately conclude from what you've seen? The critics of the shadow docket have always feared that the court can't do its best work under this kind of time pressure without good briefing and arguments and deliberation.
Michael: 而这些备忘录证实了这一批评。
Original English
Michael: And these memos vindicate that criticism.
Adam: 嗯,这不是法院在做A+工作。这是法院在抛出想法,似乎受到对某些保守派看来是激进主义的总统的不满的驱使,彼此之间争吵不休,总的来说,没有做我们认为国家最高法院应有的工作。所以人们认为影子法案有问题,因为法院在信息不足的情况下行动过快。
Original English
Adam: Uh this this is not the court doing A+ work. This is the court throwing ideas around, seeming to be motivated by, you know, grievances against a a president that some of the conservatives view as activist getting snippy with each other and just in general not doing the kind of work we associate with the nation's highest court. So people think the shadow docket is problematic because the court is moving too fast on not enough information
Adam: 这些备忘录支持了这一批评。
Original English
Adam: and these memos support that criticism.
Jody: 接着Adam的思路,他们不仅在裁决一个非常重要的案件。他们裁决的是一种全新的运作方式。他们正在无视经过时间考验的程序,这些程序长期以来一直支撑着法院的正直,而他们似乎没有考虑其影响。
Original English
Jody: And to continue Adam's thought, they're not only deciding a very important case. What they're deciding on is a whole new way of doing business. They are disregarding time-tested procedures that have kept courts upright for a very long time and they don't seem to be considering the implications.
Jody: Kagan大法官确实将法院正在做的事情称为“前所未有”,但没有人更进一步提出问题,即如果我们这样做,它会走向何方?嗯。
Original English
Jody: It's true that Justice Kagan calls what the court is doing unprecedented, but nobody goes further and asks the question, well, if we do this, where is it going to lead? Mhm.
Jody: 而它所导致的结果正是我们在特朗普政府执政的第一年多以来所看到的,法院被紧急申请淹没,似乎一半的时间都在处理这些申请。
Original English
Jody: And where it leads is what we've seen over the first year plus of the Trump administration where the court is delued by emergency applications and is spending seemingly half its time on them
Jody: 而且通常在非常短的时间内就特朗普政府的重大问题做出裁决,例如移民、机构权力、政府开支以及变性军人等。与奥巴马政府时期法院关闭一项重大总统倡议的经历形成对比的是,如今在影子法案中,法院绝大多数情况下允许特朗普总统的倡议继续推进。
Original English
Jody: and is often in very short periods of time ruling for the Trump administration on major questions like immigration. like agency power, like government spending, like transgender troops. And in contrast to the Obama experience where the court shut down a major presidential initiative, these days on the shadow docket, the court is mostly and indeed overwhelmingly allowing President Trump's initiatives to go forward.
Michael: 那么,我们是否应该将影子法案视为助长了法官最党派化的本能?政治学家会告诉你,在影子法案上的党派投票比实质性案件审理清单上的更多。
Original English
Michael: So, should we consider the shadow docket as encouraging the justice's most partisan instinct? Political scientists will tell you that there's more partisan voting on the shadow docket than on the merits docket.
Michael: 你更有可能看到共和党任命的法官投票支持共和党总统,反对民主党总统,而不是在法院的常规案件,即实质性案件审理清单上。造成这种情况以及人们在快速行动时可能依赖其党派冲动的一个例子是,在拜登执政期间,法院在三项不同的紧急申请中投票反对拜登,这些申请后来最终返回法院,而法院在有机会做完整的事情,即实际进行审议和讨论时,在这三项实质性案件中投票支持拜登。
Original English
Michael: that you're much more likely to see Republican appointees voting in favor of a Republican president and against a Democratic president than on the court's usual docket than on its merits docket. And one example of why this is so and why people when they're acting fast might rely on their partisan impulses is in the Biden years the court voted against Biden on three different emergency applications which then eventually returned to the court and the court when it had a chance to do the full thing to actually give it consideration and deliberation voted for Biden in those three merits cases.
Michael: 简而言之,法院考虑案件的时间越多,其党派冲动就越被抑制。
Original English
Michael: So in short, the more time the court has to consider cases, the more its partisan impulses are dampened.
Adam: 审议也能产生对法院的信任,这是第二部分。
Original English
Adam: Deliberation also produces trust in the court and that's the second part.
Michael: 你知道...
Original English
Michael: You know,
Michael: 公众信任。
Original English
Michael: public trust,
Adam: 对吗?民选机构获得合法性是因为选举,对吗?我们选择我们的领导人,但我们不选择我们的最高法院法官。而且他们会长期掌权。
Original English
Adam: correct? The elected branches get legitimacy because of elections, right? We choose our leaders, but we don't choose our Supreme Court justices. And they stay in power for a very long time,
Adam: 他们的一生。
Original English
Adam: their entire life.
Adam: 因此,对法官来说,撰写意见书的行为就是说:“这就是你为什么应该信任我的原因。即使你不同意这个结果,我也会向你展示我的工作。我将向你展示我如何得出我的答案。”所以,当最高法院改变其运作方式,并大大减少这种做法时,机构的合法性确实面临风险。
Original English
Adam: And so the act of writing an opinion for a judge is the act of saying, "Here's why you should trust me. Even if you disagree with this outcome, I'm going to show you my work. I'm going to show you how I got to my answer." And so when the Supreme Court changes its way of operating and does that so much less, there is truly a risk to the legitimacy of the institution.
Adam: 回想一下,最高法院的公众支持率,公众对法院的信任度正在创历史新低。
Original English
Adam: And recall that the Supreme Court's public approval ratings, the public's trust in the court is testing all-time lows,
Michael: 并且它越来越依赖影子法案来做出重大决定,只会让这个问题变得更糟。
Original English
Michael: and it's increasing reliance on the shadow docket to make major decisions is only going to make that problem worse.
Michael: 好的,Adam和Jody,非常感谢你们。
Original English
Michael: Well, Adam and Jody, thank you very much.
Adam: 谢谢你,Michael。
Original English
Adam: Thank you, Michael.
Jody: 谢谢,Michael。
Original English
Jody: Thanks, Michael.
Michael: 我们马上回来。
Original English
Michael: We'll be right back.
今日新闻简报
Michael: 还有一些你需要知道的消息。周日,特朗普总统和伊朗甚至无法就本周是否会举行新一轮和平谈判达成一致。特朗普声称,美国高级官员将于今晚返回巴基斯坦进行谈判。但几小时后,伊朗表示尚未同意这些谈判。这一来回往复概括了一个令人眩晕的周末进展。在以色列表示已与真主党达成停火协议后,伊朗表示将重新开放霍尔木兹海峡,但随后声称是为了报复美国一周前对霍尔木兹海峡的海军封锁,从而加强了对该水道的控制。同时,周日晚间,一艘美国海军驱逐舰袭击了一艘据称违反了该封锁的伊朗货船。
Original English
Michael: Here's what else you need to know today. On Sunday, President Trump and Iran could not even agree on whether a new round of peace talks would occur this week. Trump claimed that high-level US officials would return to Pakistan for negotiations starting this evening. But a few hours later, Iran said it had not agreed to those talks. The back and forth encapsulated a weekend of dizzying developments. After Israel said it had reached a ceasefire with Hezbollah, Iran said that it would reopen the straight of Hormuz, but it then tightened its grip over the waterway in retaliation, it said, for a weak old US naval blockade. Meanwhile, on Sunday night, a US Navy destroyer attacked an Iranian cargo ship that had allegedly defied that blockade.
Michael: 嗯,这是一个悲惨的局面,也许是我们有史以来最悲惨的局面。
Original English
Michael: And um this is a tragic situation, maybe the worst tragic situation we've ever had.
Michael: 路易斯安那州的一名枪手杀害了八名儿童,当地警方称这是一起家庭暴力案件。这些儿童的年龄从1岁到14岁不等,在多个地点被枪杀。枪手在追捕过程中被警方击毙。
Original English
Michael: A gunman in Louisiana killed eight children in what police there are calling a case of domestic violence. The children ranged in age from 1 to 14 and were shot in multiple locations. The gunman was fatally shot by police during a chase.
Michael: 今天的节目由Rob Zipco、Mary Wilson、Austa Churvedy和Michael Simon Johnson制作。由Devin Taylor编辑。包含Diane Wong、Marian Lozano和Alicia Bitu的音乐。我们的主题音乐由Wonderly创作。本集由Chris Wood制作。
Original English
Michael: Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipco, Mary Wilson, Austa Churvedy, and Michael Simon Johnson. It was edited by Devin Taylor. Contains music by Diane Wong, Marian Lozano, and Alicia Bitu. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Chris Wood.
Michael: 《The Daily》节目到此结束。我是Michael Baro。明天见。
Original English
Michael: That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Baro. See you tomorrow.