Nicolai Tangen: Hi everybody. I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund and today I have a real pleasure sitting down with Aliko Dangote. Aliko is the founder and the CEO of the Dangote Group, Africa's largest industrial conglomerate. Nearly 50 years ago he started with a small trading firm in Nigeria and today his empire stretches across the continent. He has built what many said was impossible, a large-scale African industry from scratch. Warm welcome.

Aliko Dangote: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure having you. Great to be here.

Nicolai Tangen: How did it all start?

Aliko Dangote: Well, I started as a trading company in 1978.

Nicolai Tangen: And what kind of things did you trade?

Aliko Dangote: Cement at that time. I started first with cement. I was getting four or five trucks and trading them there in Lagos. And then later on I got into fish, into rice, into sugar and uh you know we started we continue to expand. My first import of sugar was actually in 1980. You know and uh everything was under import license. So I got a license.

Nicolai Tangen: I mean your family had been into trading for several generations right?

Aliko Dangote: Several generations. My great-grand... you know from the maternal side, my mom's grandfather they call him Alhassan Dantata he was actually even trading you know Nigeria, Ghana you know and uh he died in 1955 before I was born but he was the richest West African at that time during his time and of course my own late grandfather Sanusi Dantata he was actually the richest Nigerian too at some point.

Nicolai Tangen: And you grew up with your grandfather?

Aliko Dangote: I grew up with my grandfather because my father died uh when I was just about 8 years old. So, uh but I actually I never ever grew with my father. I've never stayed with my father you know because when I was born I was the first grandson and you know in our tradition first grandchild will now go and stay with the grandparents. So my late sister happened to be the first grandchild. So they took her away and then the next was me a boy. So they also took me away. So both me and my sister we grew up with my own grandparents.

Nicolai Tangen: What's the key to trading?

Aliko Dangote: Well, the key first of all is actually discipline. You have to be very very disciplined. You have to know what to trade in. It's not that you be jack of all trades. No, you must choose what do you really want to do for your life and then you pick up and concentrate on that and then uh pleasure and business they don't mix at all and that is the kind of discipline that I got. My grandfather used to start working from 6:00 in the morning and he walked till uh you know late had a very simple life. uh some days he drive himself. That is how simple that uh you know uh he was very disciplined honest person. I actually took a lot of things from him.

Nicolai Tangen: What did you take from him?

Aliko Dangote: Uh first of all to be very honest to make sure that you are fair to everybody to be also generous. He was very generous. to tell you how generous he was. He gave out all his assets and money before he passed. And then uh also in terms of business, he has always been very very very very fair.

Nicolai Tangen: When you say that business and pleasure don't mix, does it mean that you don't like what you do?

Aliko Dangote: I love what I do. So when you look at the business for example today, right? Uh why is it that I people see that I work so hard? Do you know why? Because my business is actually my hobby. I take my business as a hobby. Because if I take it as a job, I won't work this hard.

Nicolai Tangen: How hard do you work?

Aliko Dangote: I work, let me give you an example. I go to bed maybe sometimes 11, 12, but I wake up around 5 in the morning. I go to the gym. By 7:30, 8 I'm done. And then I go to my office and I work as hard as any staff.

Nicolai Tangen: And you are close to 70 now.

Aliko Dangote: I'm close to 70. Yes, I'm 69. I turned 69 just uh a month ago. Actually, about 3 weeks ago, I turned to 69. But I think that discipline is good because I don't want to let me tell you something, you know, Nicolai. For example, uh when I decided to go into industry, you know what I did? I sold all my properties in the US. I had two houses in the US, big mansions and I had a house in UK and I wanted to really sit in Nigeria and concentrate. Why? You know sometimes when you own a house, a holiday home anywhere you have to create that time to go and use that property. So now my life is very simple. Wherever I go, I use hotels, I pay. When I leave, nobody will call me and say I have a burst pipe or something is wrong. So uh I'm committed to what I do and I just don't do things off. I always create a vision. It's just like now we created a vision 2030 so that I know I have a target to meet. I just don't do business on a normal this. No, no, no. All my businesses they are targeted.

Nicolai Tangen: How do you decide which businesses to be in because you could have chosen everything and then you've had a few things and you focus in on fewer things.

Aliko Dangote: Well, I first of all look at what do we need as people? What is it that we supposed to be producing and we're importing? So we do what you call a uh uh you know backward integration which means what we are importing now we produce it. You produce what we need and we are now producing things that when you wake up as a human being every morning you must use part of what we produce.

Nicolai Tangen: But you have also tried you tried flour and you tried textile and you exited that.

Aliko Dangote: I exited that. Yes. because of the foreign exchange challenges that is why we left the flour you know meal but today we are very very good in terms of uh exports if you look at it now part of what we are announcing is that when we when you invest in any of our business going forward in the cement for example in the refinery in the prochemical in the fertilizer in the port we guarantee to pay you dividend in dollars because we are very well into exports. 80% of our revenue will be in dollars. So that is why we are now saying that look yes you can have a choice if you want for locals we can pay you in naira if you don't want naira we want to derisk because most foreign investors sometimes when they invest in a company what actually matters to them is that when they get their dividend is difficult to also get money to buy and remit your money but we we have addressed that issue we are saying that look invest.

Nicolai Tangen: And you generally reinvest the money back into the business.

Aliko Dangote: Oh, all our business because if you look at Dangote Industries right from inception to date, we have never ever paid any dividend. If we are going to get dividend, we only get it from companies that we listed. But companies that are wholly owned by Dangote Industries, which they are not listed, we never ever take a dime out of the company.

Nicolai Tangen: But Aliko when you look at the group now um what would you say are the let's say three most important decisions you have made that has made this a success?

Aliko Dangote: Actually major decision is to now go into cement in trying to save a lot of African countries because they are struggling cement was selling for $250 a ton in countries like Zambia in Congo Brazzaville in Nigeria you have to pay and wait for 3 months So we realized that look people who are in cement they are not really serious about making cement available. So we now came in and we have now invested heavily. And you are in 14 countries in cement. We're in 14 countries.

Aliko Dangote: Now again when you look at uh you know oil in Africa we have a lot of countries that they produce oil but they don't refine. So they export the crude oil and now they import the products and importation cost a lot of money. It actually goes deep into our own reserves. So when I look at Nigeria for example today I say okay fine but we've been having fuel queues for 52 years. Sometimes people used to stay at during Christmas you might have to go and queue for two days trying to buy fuel for a country that produces oil and we have tried government refineries they all destroyed they are not really doing well so we said okay fine let me take this bold decision.

Nicolai Tangen: So then you decide I'll make a refinery. And let's make the biggest, the biggest ever in the world.

Aliko Dangote: The biggest ever in the world, 50% more than the biggest. $20 billion of investment. So we started with that. We launched the project in 2013. We have had issues of the land for 5 years. One land three and a half years, the other land one and a half years that we have not been able to get even access to it. All these were being blocked by what you call the mafia in oil business to make sure that we don't come and address these issues. But we were not deterred at all were actually focused. We knew what we are doing. And Nicolai when we started right the exchange rate of Naira was 156. We even got up to 1,900. But we still went ahead.

Aliko Dangote: We had to build our port because there was no port in the country that could take those heavy equipment. One piece was 3,000 tons. We have another which is the regenerator. Then we have another piece which is the crude distillation unit. That one is 2,700 tons. So we have almost about 30 of these equipment. And we built the refinery importing most of these preheaters and in modular forms.

Nicolai Tangen: So you have to build a harbor, you had to build roads, we have to do water.

Aliko Dangote: Roads, we have to do water. Water is 440 million L of water you know which is treated water. So our water department alone is more than uh let me say in size is more than 30 hectares.

Nicolai Tangen: How many people worked on this?

Aliko Dangote: 67,000 people worked on the building of the refinery. And it took us... This is the size of the town where I grew up. Well, you know, but I mean that is how we had to actually now because we are building something and luckily let me tell you what people don't know. Luckily for us, we didn't know what we were building because if he knew I was faced with the plan and the drawings all at once, right? I wouldn't have built this refinery. I would have actually chickened out.

Nicolai Tangen: Really?

Aliko Dangote: Yes. Because I mean, you know, when we started, you know, it's like you've started swimming across the ocean. When you get middle of the ocean, you realize that the tide was bad. When you go forward, it's bad. when you go backwards is so you have to work forward and that is what what we did we had to just keep working and working and believing that we will deliver.

Nicolai Tangen: Where did you get the money from?

Aliko Dangote: We got a lot of uh support you know first of all we were actually meant to fund most of this from our internally generated funds but because of the devaluation so we had to now uh rely on African Finance Corporation, Zenith Bank, Access Bank, UBA and couple of some of the local bank but of course we also have a very good relationship with Standard Bank of South Africa and at the beginning Standard Chartered Bank of UK. We were very very very very lucky and what happened when we finish the refinery things now have turned out to be much more than our own expectations.

Nicolai Tangen: What are you seeing on the back of the crisis in the Middle East in terms of that business?

Aliko Dangote: Well the effect on our businesses is actually more of beneficiary then actually downside because if you look at uh urea where we are producers which is the fertilizer today fertilizer is in the very high demand not only in the high demand in February before the middle eastern uh crisis was selling it for about $400. Today we are selling a ton of uh you know fertilizer for $850 and we are actually oversold in plastics polypropylene uh it has moved from $900 in UK today is about $3,000 okay and for us if not because of the polypropylene were producing today all the plastic industry in Nigeria which they are very huge they are almost like number two or Number three in terms of employment they would have shut down because there's nowhere you can even get it. Our aviation were over sold to end of uh you know till middle of July uh you know and we're producing 20 million liters a day.

Nicolai Tangen: Where do you source your crude now?

Aliko Dangote: We source about 56% from Nigeria some from other Angola. We buy quite from Angola, we buy from uh Libya, we buy from US. At a point we are doing almost about 7 to eight cargos of WTI from uh you know US. But we're getting more of Nigeria's crude now. So you know we have to buy now 21 cargos every month. That's how big we are. And you know we're more than doubling the refinery. you know in the next 30 months will be at 1.4 million which is huge.

Nicolai Tangen: What are the forces which have been trying to work against you in this project? Just you you mentioned the kind of you know the kind of mafia.

Aliko Dangote: Well the the the people who are actually benefiting because Nigeria was given almost about $10 billion every year as subsidy. So there are shippers who are making tons of money. There are traders who are making tons of money buying the crude and sending us uh you know product. They use it. They said that uh you know is uh it's a trade which they give you crude and then you supply them with products. There are also the local people because it was subsidized. So a lot of people very few people are getting allocation. So they are making tons of billions of naira. So these are the people that are not agreeing for us to settle down because they believe that no we're coming here to displace them which is I mean that's of of course that's what we have done now.

Nicolai Tangen: Absolutely. And now you're going to replace more people because you are planning to do a project in Tanzania.

Aliko Dangote: Tanzania uh there are couple of countries that they say okay look with what has happening in the Middle East we don't want to rely on the supply anymore from there we need our own refinery so Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya and some of the other countries like uh you know I mean Rwanda and co when we build the refinery the same size 650 will be able to serve up to Ethiopia.

Nicolai Tangen: So, how what's the total what's the total spend on this?

Aliko Dangote: We have now the group as a groupwide we have 45 billion dollars to spend. But I know we're also doing LNG in Nigeria. We're doing a gas infrastructure... and that's why we are coming off with selling part of the business getting more investors into the business... our target is to get to $100 billion by 2030 and uh with a market valuation of maybe more than $250 billion because as we speak today last year our EBITDA was $3 billion but the target by 2030 is to be 10 times that amount to be at over 30 billion of EBITDA.

Nicolai Tangen: What's the difference between thinking big and thinking too big?

Aliko Dangote: What is the difference between thinking big? Because if you think big, you grow big. When you think small, you don't grow at all. So you have to first of all know that the business you are going in is a business that you know in and out. It's like myself and any of the staff 10 of the top most staff when you wake them late at night they will tell you the process of each and every part of our business... We have delivered a refinery that has never ever been built with petrochemicals and we managed 67,000 workers at site. We built during the most difficult times which is COVID we built in a very difficult environment which is Nigeria and we are able to deliver.

Nicolai Tangen: So now you have 18 businesses in 17 countries. What are the big what are the biggest risks you think?

Aliko Dangote: Well, the biggest risk for us is actually if there are civil war which is not um I mean is not in the offing at all. The other biggest risk is uh you know government inconsistencies in policies... The other one was to do with infrastructure. But what we are doing also to tell you the infrastructure we are working with government. You know what we are doing today? We have roads which they are more than $3 billion which we are building. So the issue is that because our taxes our companies are doing well. So the taxes are high... We are now building the infrastructure to be able to absorb the kind of businesses that we are doing and not only for us for the other investors in Nigeria.

Nicolai Tangen: But what are the challenges when you are you are the biggest employer in the country? Uh you are the biggest taxpayer and you are dependent on the government. What are the what are the challenges operating in that environment?

Aliko Dangote: Well, we are not dependent really on the government. No, because if you look at it is like anywhere in the world today people who are operating in America for example tomorrow morning if Mr. Trump wakes up from the wrong side of the bed, he can bring a regulation that can either help them or try to slow them down... depending on the private sector where now you give very good investment policies... government in some of these like our cement business I keep telling people that government is making more money than us because of the various taxes that we pay. But we're happy because we're also growing. So we're okay with that.

Nicolai Tangen: what is it what is it uh that foreign investors don't understand with when it comes to doing business in Africa?

Aliko Dangote: there's one thing that really that is baffling them that okay fine if we well what you are saying is good how come we Africans are not investing in our own economies because the mistakes that we've been making in the past is that we are looking for foreign investors but foreign investors are only attracted by domestic investors so and that's what we are doing today Nicolai... I can just mention a few like ADNOC were in a very big discussion with them and we want to have a very serious partnership in fertilizer in the oil business...

Nicolai Tangen: And who is who is helping Africa with business now? Could you just reflect a bit on China versus the US versus Europe?

Aliko Dangote: Honestly, Nicolai, you want me to be very open and Yeah. So, it's China. China really have dominated business in Africa. Because of the absence of the others... they are dominating the uh landscape and obviously you know Africans uh you know even our own governments they don't joke with China because China they put their balance sheet on the table... The Chinese are saying that no no no no just give me 20%. The rest I will give you 5 years uh you know uh financing. Which one are you going to take? If you are in my shoes obviously you take the Chinese one because the Chinese one it means that I can do more.

Nicolai Tangen: Do you think it's possible to increase efficiency in Africa without increasing inequality? And climate?

Aliko Dangote: Well, the inequality issue we have to address... well the climate you know when you look at uh we are not the biggest polluters in those whole thing we're less than 6%... today our cement plant... you can sit down there and eat. The uh process that we have is more stringent... we're stopping almost maybe 500 ships from going in there to pick up crew to go and refine to now bring back the uh you know products. Today... almost all our trucks maybe 90% today of our trucks are all CNG. We're not using diesel... we are doing them simultaneously trying to provide for our needs at the same time working on the climate.

Nicolai Tangen: Aliko, let's move on to leadership. When I talk to people about you, uh, one word that comes up again and again is patience.

Aliko Dangote: Yes. The key to patience, first of all, you have to have, we have very good, uh, uh, people that we are leading in the organization... my leadership style is to make sure that for example when I'm hiring people I always hire people who are more intelligent than me.

Nicolai Tangen: Are you more patient now than when you were younger?

Aliko Dangote: Uh to tell you the truth, let me be very honest with you. I'm more aggressive now. Because I've seen a lot of opportunities that I've never ever knew that they exist... Africa controls about 60% of the world's critical minerals. We have young energetic population. We have uh uh the most arable land in the world. 60% of the arable land of the world is there... Nigeria can be one of the biggest suppliers of LG in the world.

Nicolai Tangen: What do you think is driving you now? I mean you're already the wealthiest guy in Africa.

Aliko Dangote: what is driving me is legacy actually it's not about being you know riches... I have given now one-third of my wealth to the foundation. If anything happens to me now, one/3 will automatically go to my you know uh you know foundation. But what is driving me the most is that we have a lot of needs in Africa... My legacy will be that I'm one of the one that actually pioneered you know the industrialization of Africa. That's my focus to make sure that Africa produce what we consume.

Nicolai Tangen: How do you how do you use your foundation to try to improve the continent?

Aliko Dangote: Well, the foundation's uh work, you know, the foundation about uh 2014 uh I did an endowment of $1.25 billion... based on what uh Mr. Bill Gates told me, he said that you know, we are one of the best partners they have... we've been able to eradicate uh polio and we're working on uh quite a lot of things...

Nicolai Tangen: How do you relax?

Aliko Dangote: How do I relax? Um, I try to sometimes take my grandkids if they around, take them to the beach. I love going to the beach. We just go there and play.

Nicolai Tangen: And talking of player, you're a big Arsenal fan. You nearly bought the team, right?

Aliko Dangote: I almost. Yes. you had to make a choice. when I was really very very focused on buying Arsenal then I was also facing the challenge of making sure the refinery gets to its own completion... should I put my $2 billion in Arsenal and now allow the business to suffer or should I now complete the business then I can continue to remain a very big supporter of Arsenal... Today they are worth billions and it's not really worth my while at all.

Nicolai Tangen: What is your advice to young African people?

Aliko Dangote: My own advice to young African people is to work hard and also have the belief that the future is greater than the current situation that we're in. That Africa is a promise sin land and they should stay at home and make sure that we collectively build our continent rather than just flying out somewhere else.

Nicolai Tangen: It's been amazing. Thank you so much.