There's The Secret Lives of Mormon wives, Love Island, The Real Housewives of practically every city you've ever heard of. More than 30 years after the reality TV genre really got going, it's stronger than ever. So, what is it about reality TV that keeps us coming back for more?

I talked to Kathy James, co-president of Proper Television, executive producer and showrunner of Master Chef Canada, among other shows, and Sarah Cresell, associate editor at The Thai, about finding escape in reality TV when reality itself is hard to handle.

>> Kathy, Sarah, welcome to the program. How are you guys doing?

>> Great. Thank you so much for having us.

>> Thank you.

>> There are two types of entertainment watching that's on the rise. reality TV and then we have nostalgia TV and films. I want to start with reality first. Kathy, what do you think people are looking for when they are watching perhaps binging in my case reality TV?

>> Um, well, I don't know actually that reality TV is on the rise. I think that it is a a like a 25 year old genre now and that it's had it it I think that I don't even think of it necessarily as popular. I think of it as entrenched in the entertainment world and in our culture, but there's certainly certain shows that are doing extremely well and are in the zeitgeist. And I understand that you're a fan of one of those.

>> I am selling sunset. [laughter] Guilty. Also watching.

>> Okay, good.

>> Also guilty.

>> So, what are we looking for when we're we're watching these shows?

>> I think that everybody's looking for something different. Um, I think the way that I might watch it as a producer of of um unscripted television (Unscripted television: Television programming that is not scripted, though it may be heavily produced or edited.) might be a little differently different than the way that that you two watch it. Um, so I'd like to turn it back to you two. Like I cuz as the producer it's really interesting for me to hear what you like about it.

>> Okay. Well Sarah you had written an article about your selling sunset habit and you wrote more than anything it's outsiz opulence drowns out the many moments when I'm uncomfortably confronted with the real life wealth disparities all around me. I'm hoping you could take us through sort of your selling sunset journey because it was sort of a a love maybe a love love relationship but sort of turns into a lovehate relationship. So for people who aren't familiar with Selling Sunset, what is the show and then walk us through your journey.

>> Yeah, so Selling Sunset is kind of a softly scripted uh docu Soap series. Um it follows real estate agents who dress up in glamorous outfits, increasingly glamorous as the seasons go on.

>> Tuesday is the Metball for that. Yes, let's be very clear. Yes, [laughter] absolutely. And and that's part of the fun, right? Um and yeah, they kind of just they sell houses once in a while, but I think, you know, you can't go five minutes without uh Cricelle and Emma sitting on the edge of a multi-million dollar mansion and talking about what happened at Girls Giving, which are the moments that I'm waiting for. Um and yeah, my journey with with Selling Sunset, it truly was a journey. I remember texting friends being like, I have started the selling sunset journey because its popularity really exploded um during the pandemic because it first released in 2019. Um and yeah, I I was kind of in one of two states while watching Selling Sunset. I was either, you know, entrenched into the drama and into the psychoanalyses and into the funny awkward moments or, you know, I was going through it and looking to absolutely turn my brain off. Um, I think the moment that the fantasy sort of shattered a little bit for me was earlier this year in January, a new spin-off came out, which was Selling the City, which takes place in New York City. And I don't know, I kind of recognized, you know, the the exposed pipe and the and the pylons and the concrete jungle of New York City in in my own city of Toronto. And I I started to just feel like I was coming down to earth a little bit again. and and yeah, the fantasy wasn't wasn't so much working anymore. And I kind of remembered, you know, all the the issues of of housing unaffordability and the homelessness crisis and, you know, people's inability to pay rent and buy groceries. So, these people aren't that far off from us. They're they're they're around us.

>> Some [laughter] people will talk about uh unscripted TV reality shows as a form of escapism and they may make some associations that it is you know perhaps a bit lazy uh some guilty pleasure watching uh but these days there's also this term of rot day.

>> Okay, so the rot day is basically when you are absolutely allowing yourself to be horizontal as long as you need to be. Binge as many episodes guilt-free as you need to. Um, you know, have your favorite hot chocolate or tea or whatever it is you want. Um, and just and and kind of rest and lean into um a level of rest that is considered radical these days. Um, you know, I think this is Gen Z's way. This trend is a reflection of our greater collective rejection against hustle culture and productivity culture. Um especially in a time when we're dealing with symptoms of you know latestage capitalism and and being exhausted from meaningless jobs and and being increasingly isolated in our individual lifestyles of you know working from home and perfecting our gym routine and watching our little prestige television show and then going to bed and doing it over and over again. And I think it's kind of a reflection of um our our lack of community and our lack of uh of touch with purpose and fulfillment in in our generation. That's not for everybody. Rot days are beautiful and and healthy and and necessary. Um but yeah, I think it's a reflection of of a greater problem sometimes.

Kevin, I want your take on this as as someone who as you mentioned who makes this television, not selling Senset, but you know, if we're mentioning shows, The Great Canadian Bake Show, Master Chef Canada, we've got Listing Large, which is a real estate show.

>> Listening to uh what Sarah has to say, does that is that something that is in your brain thinking about when you're producing some of these shows?

>> Um, well, I I definitely I I definitely want to create an enjoyable experience. I think that, you know, all entertainment, whether it's reading or movies, is a form of escape. You know, in the 19th century, people were scolded for reading too much. And now, you know, it's interesting to think of a rot where really you're just immersing yourself in more rot because the cycle of reality TV and digital culture and inquisitiveness and aspiration is all cycled throughout the culture. You're not escaping it when you immerse yourself in selling sunset. You're actually embracing it.

>> Um I think that you know the interesting thing about reality television and reality is a terrible you know way to to talk about any any form of entertainment even documentary. Nothing is real once you edit it and and you know contract it into an hour or a twohour package.

>> But I think that um what what's interesting about unscripted television is that it is actually can be highly authentic within a very constructed package. And when it works, even with something as contrived as selling sunset where, as you mentioned, you know, women are dressed, you know, to go to, you know, like for like a, you know, a black tie party when they're going to show a house at like, you know, 3:00 in the afternoon. I mean, it's absurd. the that show is is shot and lit and and the and the participants even though they are real people behaving and acting as themselves in their own lives it is all fully produced in a way that most unscripted television isn't because frankly we don't have the budget for that right

>> but what I would say is that you know reality TV works or unscripted television works even on selling sunset because despite all the contrivance it gets at something that people are connecting to.

I'm hoping you can pull the curtain for us a little bit in terms of considering casting for shows that you work on.

>> What makes a good character?

>> It really depends on on what you're going for. Yeah, for Well, at for the Great Canadian Baking Show, you know, I think that for some culinary shows, um, because the objective of that particular show is that this is going to change your life. We want to see people sort of battle it out. We want to see, you know, some some conflict which might actually mimic an authentic uh environment on the on the line at a at a high-end kitchen. We we may we may cast for a mix of personality and cooking skill for something like The Great Canadian Baking Show. Obviously, we look for people who Canadians are going to love. We look at at how we represent the country as a whole geographically, demographically, but you really really need to be a great baker. I mean, if for that particular show, that audience wants to see people who are

>> artists and we we spend a great deal of time um you know talking to them, testing them and and interviewing them to get a sense of their skill level. um for something like Listing Large, which was a group of real estate agents based in uh um I think the northern part of uh Toronto, we it it was anchored by a onag again off-again couple that ended up coming together and getting married and having two kids at the end of the show. I mean, thank God for that because that real life thing that was happening really drove the story of the show. But, you know, it was against the background of of beautiful Toronto real estate. But the, you know, the would not have have had the chance to have their lives um, you know, on camera if they weren't also extraordinarily good-looking and very charismatic,

>> right? That all plays in. I want to pick up on sort of the competition aspect of it. We see this even in dating shows. Uh, we can name a bunch of them. Um but the there is what is it about sort of upping the ante that has created or or does it create a higher viewership uh when there is a something at stake?

>> That's a good question. Yeah, I think you know there's there's two kinds of stakes in in my view in my experience either consuming these kinds of stories or even trying to write them sometimes. I think there's the external stakes, which is, you know, are they gonna, in the case of selling sunset, are they going to sell this this million-dollar mansion, is my client who wants to sell his house for $75 million going to um be mad at me if I don't sell his house for an exorbitant amount of money? Um, and then there's the internal stakes, you know, there's the characters that we come to know and love. I think um Cricelle has become such a fan favorite on that show and she kind of has a perfect um narrative to contribute in a space where you know we see a lot of wealth, a lot of opulence. um she kind of has this experience with homelessness and it kind of aligns with um a lot of viewers values around you know the American dream and and getting out of um a tough situation and that it is possible um to aspire to to to be like and look like the people who are on our screens and it is fantasy but it kind of does get to you on that subconscious level. So yeah, I think I think upping the stakes like that um both externally and emotionally is what makes us connect to it so much as Kathy said

>> with that connection there is also a community uh that is built on social media perhaps for example but how might and I'll bring back the rot but you know how might that be costing is there a cost to it in in sort of real life community when we are watching shows like this

>> I think so I I thought a lot about this with my own journey with selling uh selling sunset and and its spin-off shows. You know, I I got really into it and and like I mentioned earlier, there was a time when I I gave myself a rot, but it wasn't it wasn't a great rot day. It was one of those days where I think I binge watched too one too many episodes. Um, and I started to kind of question, you know, if I wasn't constantly chasing the comfort of reality television, um, I might be facing the uncomfortable and discomfort of, um, my actual reality. Um, and if I was present with that more, if I wasn't so avoidant with it, and if we didn't have um, the urge to constantly run to this, you know, no shortage of entertainment that we have these days, what would we be doing instead? And I started to question, you know, who might I be or what sort of um what what ways would I get to know myself more and what ways would I maybe get to know my own values more and even pour those values into action, whether that's community organizing or or just showing up for my next door neighbor or or thinking more clearly about what I want to spend my my very little extra time doing. Um, yeah.

>> Very quickly, I uh before I get to my last question too, what do you see in terms of the community that's built behind some of these shows? Some of these shows resonate with a lot of people. We talked just before we rolled about uh you know, the great Canadian Boff just all the connection there. But what are you seeing from the community uh that you've sort of cultivated with these shows?

I you know I think the fans really cultivate it themselves and it we don't have a lot of control over that and it's a really interesting thing to see and you know it's interesting on on something like selling sunset I think the stakes supposedly as you say are about selling homes I don't know that a lot of homes get sold

>> I don't think so [laughter]

>> I think the real stakes among among those women and why it is authentic and it or this is the authent authenti authenticity I think that the audience relates to is it is a blood match for social media popularity

>> and so many of the things that play out on that show are really connected to what is going on behind the scenes in their social media.

>> All right, we have less than a minute. One question for both of you. I want to turn our attention to nostalgia. Um from TV to vinyl records and analog technology, we are seeing this being documented. talk about Gen Z's for as a millennial it's a nice little pulse check to see what you know what the kids are up to and into these days and we know that we're you know what's trending uh but in tough times it seems like everyone wants to go back to what they think as a simpler time a simpler past and I am just curious what is your go-to nostalgia or escape binge perhaps and why

>> I've I've got to say Gilmore Girls um I am that person who went to journalism school and is still obsessed with that show. I mean, I watched Gilmore Girls, you know, Saturday mornings or Sunday mornings on, I think it was the W channel with my mom and when uh the episode got a little too inappropriate for my age and for my strict parents, my mom would change the channel if my dad was in the room. Um, but you know, that show is just quintessential comfort. It it takes place uh you know, throughout the beautiful seasons in this small town. Um, and I watch it every single fall and it just reminds me of, you know, watching this show with hilarious banter and iconic flawed characters. Um, every every weekend with my mom and my sister and yeah, it just hits every time. I don't know what to say. Every single fall, it never misses.

All right, [laughter] Kathy, as someone who works in TV, I don't know, maybe I'm assuming that it's it's something, you know, that you're watching, but perhaps something else that uh that brings back uh some nostalgia, but also takes you back to simpler times.

>> You know, the way that nostalgia is playing out for me lately is in the kinds of shows that we are developing. And um one of the shows that I'm I'm developing right now is a dating show that takes people back in time to uh a university campus in which they're immersed in basically a time capsule and and and I think that it really and and you know it's interesting because it involves people like Gen Xers going back to an 80s college campus but when I talk to younger people they love the idea idea because the idea of dating and and and having community and meeting people in an in an analog world is really plays into this nostalgia for a simpler time.

>> All right, we are going to leave it there. We will keep our eyes out for [laughter] that show. Fingers crossed. All right, Kathy, Sarah, thank you so much. Really appreciate your insights.

>> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. It was a pleasure.