当我开始着手写这本书时，我就知道自己想写的并不仅仅是一场灾难的故事。最初吸引我投入其中的，是这样一件事不仅发生在两个人身上，更发生在一场婚姻之中的想法，以及从内部去感受它究竟会是怎样的一种滋味。
英文原文
When I was setting out on writing the book, I knew it wasn't just the story of the catastrophe that I wanted to write. What had pulled me into it initially was the idea of this happening to a marriage as much as to two individuals and what that would feel like from the inside.我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹（Gilbert Cruz），这里是《纽约时报》的书评播客。今天我想重温一期我们档案库里的节目。它讲述的是一本极具海滩风情的书。书中充斥着大量的水。这是一出情感关系戏剧，同时也是一个惊心动魄的生还故事。《海上婚姻：一段关于爱、执念与海难的真实故事》（Marriage at Sea: A True Story of Love, Obsession, and Shipwreck）登上了《纽约时报书评》2025年度十佳图书榜单，它也是我去年最喜爱的个人心水之作之一。它讲述了20世纪70年代一对英国夫妇令人难以置信的故事[音乐]，他们试图驾船环游世界。他们想前往新西兰，并且差一点就要成功了，但在辽阔的太平洋中央，他们的小船被一头鲸鱼撞翻，他们被迫在海上求生了相当一段[音乐]时间。《海上婚姻》的平装本几周前刚刚面世，我认为它是一本绝佳的夏日读物。[音乐] 以下是我去年与作者索菲·埃尔姆赫斯特（Sophie Elmhirst）的对话。
英文原文
I'm Gilbert Cruz and this is the book review from the New York Times. Today I would like to bring back an episode from our archives. It's about a book that has real beach vibes. There's a lot of water. It's a relationship drama and it's also a daring story of survival. Marriage at Sea, a true story of love, obsession, and shipwreck, made it onto the book reviews top 10 books of 2025, and it was one of my personal favorites last year as well. It tells the unbelievable story of a British couple in the 1970s [music] who try to sail around the world. They're trying to reach New Zealand and they almost make it, but their boat gets capsized by a whale in the middle of the vast Pacific Ocean and they're forced to survive there for quite [music] a while. The paperback edition of Marriage at Sea just came out a few weeks ago, and I think it's a perfect summer read. [music] Here's my conversation from last year with the author, Sophie Elmerst.你好，索菲。
英文原文
Hello, Sophie.嗨。很高兴来到这里。
英文原文
>> Hi. Great to be here.希望你喜欢这次对话。你在不把整个故事全盘托出的情况下，会如何向人们描述这本书？除非你想把整个故事剧透出来。跟我们讲讲吧。
英文原文
>> I hope you enjoy it. How do you describe this book to people without giving away the entire story? Unless you want to give away the entire story. Tell us about it.海难与婚姻
当然。我想从某种层面上来说，这显然是一个关于灾难的故事，对吧？讲述的是这对扬帆起航的夫妇。正如你所说，他们试图驾驶自己的小船移民去新西兰，航行到半个地球远的地方时，他们被一头鲸鱼撞击了。至于如何不把整件事全盘托出，我认为他们生还了这个事实并不需要成为什么秘密，对吧？因为这在很大程度上同样是关于他们一生的故事。而对于他们所经历的一切的余波，我的兴趣丝毫不亚于对他们承受这段经历本身的兴趣。我想我通常不会透露的，是他们究竟是如何获救的。总要试着保留一点悬念。
英文原文
>> Sure. I guess it's obviously on one level a story of a catastrophe, right? It's this couple who set sail. They were trying to immigrate in their tiny boat and go to New Zealand as you said, and there they are halfway around the world and they're hit by a whale. And in terms of how not to give away the the whole thing, I don't think there needs to be a secret about the fact they survived, right? Because it's a story of their whole lives as much as anything. And I was just as interested in the sort of aftermath of what they went through as I was in in the endurance of it in itself. And I guess what I tend not to do is give away how exactly they're rescued. Try and hold something back.好吧，我们在这里就不剧透那个了。你最初是在什么时候听说这个故事的？
英文原文
>> Okay, we won't do that here. When did you first hear about this story?那个，那是挺久以前了。当时我在为一篇文章做调研——我是一名记者——内容是关于试图逃离的人群，尤其是逃离陆地的人。在那种时候你懂的，我发现自己在网上到处搜寻，进了一个专门收录遇难弃船者故事和海难故事的网站。上面有很多独自流落荒岛并经历各种奇遇的狂野男子的照片和故事。而在所有这些当中，有一张小小的黑白照片，上面是一男一女。她吸引了我的目光，因为她在这样的人群中非常罕见。我也能看出他们身上有某种东西显得出奇地熟悉。我不知道这是否只是我后见之明的投射，但一旦我发现他们是20世纪70年代的英国人，并且一旦我开始更深入地了解他们这些人物，他们身上就呈现出某种极具辨识度的文化特质，让我感到熟悉，同时也有各种立刻引人入胜却又极度陌生之处，比如你一开始究竟为什么会想去做这样的事情。
英文原文
>> So, it was a while ago. I was researching a piece, I'm a journalist, about people trying to escape, especially escape the land. And I found myself trolling around, as you do in these moments, online and on a website devoted to castaway stories and shipwreck stories. And there were lots of photographs and tales of lone wild men who had pitched up on desert islands and had various escapades. And in among all of these was a tiny little black and white picture of a man and a woman. and she caught my eye because she was rare in this crowd. And I could tell also that there was something about them that seemed oddly familiar. And I don't know whether that's just me projecting in hindsight, but once I discovered they were English in the 1970s and just once I started learning more about them as characters, there was just something very identifiable about them as something culturally quite specific that felt familiar to me and all sorts of things that were just immediately fascinating and deeply unfamiliar such as why you want to do something like this in the first place.现在，这是一个极其引人注目的故事内核，故事的核心，但正如你所说，你是一名在职记者，想必你时时刻刻都会遇到各种故事。为什么偏偏选了这一个作为你第一本书的主题？
英文原文
Now, this is the compelling nugget of a story, the nucleus of a story, but as you say, you're a working journalist who you come across stories all the time presumably. Why was this the one to focus your first book on?你懂的，我找寻了一段时间，而且正如你所说的，我总是在写这样那样的故事，并且不可避免地，我能看出这个故事很不寻常。我不敢相信自己以前竟然没听说过它。不敢相信它竟然被遗忘了。它在戏剧性上是如此极端。他们在太平洋上漂流的时间跨度之长，他们不得不诉诸的种种行为——斩首海龟、生吃鱼肉和眼球，所有这些素材简直就像金矿，对吧？这些材料极其丰富。但我我想我从一开始就知道这还不够。那不会是、也不可能是故事的全部，或者至少对一本书来说，仅仅拥有极端性和戏剧性是远远不够的。
英文原文
>> I'd been hunting, as you do for a while, and as you said, I'm always writing stories of one kind or another, and like inevitably, I could tell the story was special. I couldn't believe I hadn't heard of it before. Couldn't believe it had been forgotten. It's so extreme in its drama. The sheer length of time they're drifting in the Pacific, the behaviors they have to resort to, the beheading of turtles and eating of raw fish and eyeballs and all of this stuff is just it's gold, right? It's the material is incredibly rich. But I I think I just knew from the start it wasn't that wasn't enough. That wasn't going to be the whole story or couldn't be the whole story or at least it wouldn't be enough for a book just to have the extremity, just to have the drama.因此它非常依赖于从他们自己的文字、自己的著作中找到这批丰富的素材，此外还有他们的日记、照片，以及比他们活得更久的人，因为遗憾的是，在我开始调研时他们已经不在人世了，但还有朋友、家人以及所有这些我能够交谈的人，他们真的能让这两个人跃然纸上。因为我想我从一开始就知道，如果这需要成为、或者我想让它成为一个关于经历这种遭遇时的内心历程的故事，同时也是对经历这种遭遇的一段婚姻进行相当深入的审视，那么我就需要真正深入他们的内心。而用新闻报道的行话来说，这就需要一种无法仅凭表面事件获得的深入接触。我想它需要更深的一层。
英文原文
And so it really relied on finding this rich body of material from their own writing, their own books, but also their diaries, photographs, people who survived them because sadly they weren't alive anymore when I started my research, but friends and family and all these people I could talk to who could really bring them to life because I guess I knew from the beginning that if it needed to be or if I wanted it to be a story of I suppose the sort of interior process of going through something like this, but also the an quite a sort of intimate exam examination of a marriage going through something like this. Then I needed to really get under their skin and that would require I don't know to put it in journalistic terms a level of access that that wouldn't be there just on the surface events. It needed another layer I guess to it.莫里斯与玛丽莲
你提到了关于他们在大海上漂泊数月所涉及的一些细节。但整件事始于这两个走到一起的人，显然，“异性相吸”是句陈词滥调，但莫里斯（Maurice）和玛丽莲（Marilyn）在许多方面确实截然相反。他们是怎么走到一起的，他们又是怎样的人？
英文原文
>> You refer to some of the details involved in them being on the open seas for months and months. But it it starts with these two people coming together and obviously opposites attracted as a cliche, but Maurice and Marilyn were opposites in many ways. How did they come together and what were they like?是的，挺有意思的。你现在去和她同父异母（或同母异父）的妹妹交谈，她至今仍在纳闷他们当年是怎么走到一块的[笑声]，而且在某些方面依然对他们看上彼此什么——或者具体说是她看上了他什么感到困惑不解，这我能理解。[笑声]
英文原文
>> Yeah, it's funny. You talk to her half sister now and she still wonders at how they came together [laughter] and is still mystified in in some ways by what they saw in each other or specifically what she saw in him, which I can understand. [laughter]是啊，他看起来是一个非常特别的人。而她看起来就是个极其乐观、正常的普通人。倒不是说莫里斯不正常，但他童年时期的境遇或许将他变成了一个有点孤僻、非常内向、不太想和人过多接触的人。
英文原文
>> Yeah, he's the one that seems like a very particular person. She just seems like a wonderfully optimistic, normal person. And not that Maurice wasn't, but the circumstances of his childhood perhaps turned him into someone who was a bit of a loner, very inwardlooking, didn't want to be around people very much.没错。他就是，是的。他在社交上非常笨拙，极度缺乏自信。正如你所说，这源于一个缺少关爱的童年以及艰难的成长环境。要知道，他小时候身体不好，而且我想他在孩提时代就很孤独，这种特质真的会伴随人的一生。到他遇见她时，他已经二十八九岁了，并且已经建立了这种相当孤僻、规律的生活方式。他独自生活，做好自己的工作，有着自己的爱好，都是些富有冒险精神的爱好，航海、徒步等等。但她要年轻得多，才二十出头，还和父母住在一起。当他们相遇时，那是在60年代初。在性别和恋爱关系规范方面，我们谈论的是一个截然不同的时代。
英文原文
>> That's right. He was Yeah. He was very socially awkward and very lacking in self-confidence. And as you say, that came from a slightly affectionless childhood and and a tough upbringing. You know, he was unwell as a child and lonely, I think, as a child, which is something that can really last through life. And by the time he met her, he was in his late 20s and had established this quite solitary routine existence. He lived alone, did his job, and had his hobbies, which were these adventurous hobbies, sailing and hiking and the rest of it. But she was much younger in her early 20s and still living at home with her parents. And when they met, this is the early 60s. We're talking such a different time in terms of gender and relationship norms.大家原本指望她直到结婚才会离家，即使到了那时，也很可能会过着相当受庇护且闭塞的生活，大概会放弃工作、生儿育女并过上家庭生活。但在这种意义上，我想象或者说我体会到了一种感觉：他确实为她提供了一些相当重要的东西，那就是不去过那种生活的机会，以及一种不同形式的人生。基本上，他不想要小孩，他不信教，他也根本不在意那个时代的社会甚至道德期望。我认为那是极其令人感到解放的。我认为透过他，他就像通往这种另类生活的一扇门。而显然对他来说，她则是通往活着本身的一扇门。带来了一些更具快乐、更富有生气的东西，那些所有他梦想去做、但要是任由他一个人单打独斗就绝不会真正去做的事情，有了她，突然之间都变得可能了。
英文原文
And she wasn't expected to leave home until she was married. and even then would likely have quite a sheltered and contained existence, would probably give up work and have children and live a domestic life. But so in that sense, I I imagined or I think identified a sense that he did offer her something quite significant which was an opportunity not to live that life and and a different form of existence. Basically, he didn't want to have kids. He wasn't religious. He didn't pay any heed to the social or even moral expectations of the time. And I think that was incredibly liberating. I think through him, she he was like a portal to this alternative life. And obviously for him, she was a portal to just a life. Something which was a little more joyful and a little more spirited and all the things that he dreamed of doing but never would actually have done left to his own devices suddenly became possible with her.在他们成长和生活的那些地方，60年代和70年代的英国是怎样的？
英文原文
>> What was England like in in the 60s and 70s in the places where they grew up and they lived?是的。是的，我是说，瞧，我当时还没出生，所以这是基于调研和访谈得来的，但我想触动我的、以及实际上我和我母亲反复聊过的事情，是关于六……我们对60年代有着这样的观念，而现实中它是一件非常不同的事情，对吧？我们把那个时代想象为一个开放与解放的时期，而实际上那全都是后见之明，我认为社会的那些全面开放花费了漫长得多的时间，而在他们自己的认知中
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean look I wasn't alive at the time so this is based on research and conversation but I guess what struck me and something that I have had repeated conversations with my mother about actually is how six we have this idea of the 60s and in reality it was a very different thing right it that we imagine at this time of opening and liberation whereas actually that's all in hindsight and I think it all those openings up of society took much longer and in in their own perceptions我想莫里斯觉得他们当时住的德比——英格兰正中部的一个小镇——是个相当令人窒息的地方，一个相当狭隘的地方。他觉得那里的眼界让他感到十分压抑狭小，他极度渴望离开那个世界，离开陆地。他基本上开始把人类文明的局限与单纯生活在陆地上联系在了一起。
英文原文
I suppose Morris found where they were living in Derby which is a town right in the middle of England, a fairly sort of steltifying place, a place which was quite narrow-minded. He felt quite small in its horizons and he wanted desperately to leave that world and to leave the land. He started to associate the limits of human civilization basically with just being on land.所以就有了这对伴侣，莫里斯是一个有点与众不同的人。他不想要孩子，也不一定喜欢和人打交道，但他渴望体验世界。他会开飞机，喜欢爬山或长途徒步。他只是想逃离英格兰中部这种令人窒息的氛围。他遇到了这位优秀的年轻女士，她同样不想去迎合强加在自己身上的种种期望，于是他们走到了一起。你在第 3 章开头写了这样一段话，你说：“爱情在奏效时，会让人觉得像是一个令人恐惧的侥幸。两个人必须做出选择并被对方选中。”而最不可能的是，这些选择必须大致在同一时间发生。他们能找到彼此简直是个奇迹。但随后他们最终做出了一个大多数人不会做的决定，那就是抛下原本的生活前往海洋。正如你所写的，玛丽莲最早在 1966 年底提出了这个想法，但他们直到多年后才真正启程。他们是如何做出这个决定的？在做出决定和他们登上那艘船之间，又发生了什么？
英文原文
>> So you have this couple, you have Maurice, a man who is a bit different. He doesn't want to have kids, doesn't necessarily like being around people, but he is interested in experiencing the world. He knows how to fly planes. He likes climbing mountains or going for long walks. He just wants to escape this staltifying atmosphere of central England. He meets this wonderful younger woman who also doesn't want to experience the expectations that have been set upon her and they come together. And you write this at the beginning of chapter 3 here and you say, "Love when it works can feel like such a terrifying fluke. Two people have to choose and be chosen." And most unlikely of all, these choices must happen at roughly the same time. It's miraculous that these two found each other. But then they eventually made a decision that most people wouldn't make, which is the decision to leave their lives behind for the ocean. As you write, Marilyn Fris brought the idea up in in late 1966. They didn't end up departing until many years later. How did they come to this decision? And what happened in between that decision and the time that they got on that boat?他们是如何做出决定的，我想很大程度上可以归结在玛丽莲身上，因为她是那种……我想面对做某件事的可能性时，她会确保将其变为现实的人。我觉得莫里斯可能会一直谈论这件事，但不一定会去付诸实现。但她的骨子里极其务实，她就那样一步一步地推进行动，让这件事成真。他们卖掉了房子，卖掉了所有的财产，搬到了英格兰南海岸，在那里他们可以开始造船。这耗费了非常非常长的时间。但我认为从某种角度来看，这也关乎他们对冒险的不同态度。正如你所说的，他确实热爱冒险，渴望亲近自然，生活在人口较少的地方。他们想去新西兰的原因就是为了更多地身处荒野之中。但我认为他那种逃离的渴望，在某种程度上也许不可避免地源于一个比她更为消极的心态。这在很大程度上既关乎逃离，对吧，也关乎他要走向何方。对。
英文原文
How they came to the decision I think is we can put largely at Marilyn's door in the sense that she was someone who I suppose faced with the kind of possibility of doing something would make sure she turned that into a reality. I think Morris would have gone on talking about it forever but not necessarily ever made it happen. But she was deeply pragmatic to her core and she just started enacting the step-by-step process by which this this thing would happen. and they sold their house. They sold all their belongings. They moved south to the south coast of England where they could start building the boat. This took a really really long time. But I think it's also about like their different attitudes in a way to to the adventure and like you said, he did have this love of adventure and a desire to be closer to nature and to be in a less populated place. The reason they wanted to go to New Zealand was to be more in wilderness. But I think it was also his desire to escape I think came from a slightly more maybe inevitably negative place than hers. It was as much about the escape right as it was what he was going towards. Right.我觉得那种想要逃离的冲动对我来说非常耐人寻味。我甚至在想，这种冲动是否在某种程度上阻碍了他。这既是对已有生活的一种抗拒，也是极度渴望让某件事情发生。
英文原文
>> And I think that's that was very interesting to me that impulse to get away. And I wonder whether that stalled him in a way. It was as much a rejection of what he had as it was a kind of wanting desperately to make something happen.你还写道：“离开英格兰，永不回头。对莫里斯来说，这完全是为了重新开始，摆脱英格兰所包含的一切——他的过去、他的家庭，以及他自己。换个地方我们就能成为不同的人，这是一种难以抗拒的想法。”
英文原文
>> You also wrote to leave England and never come back. For Maurice, it was revoly to start again, to shed everything that England contained, his past, his family, himself. It is an irresistible thought that we might be someone different somewhere else.我想在某种程度上这一点相当明显，对他周围的人来说也是如此：他极力想摆脱的，莫过于他自己。当然，在这些境况下你会意识到，无论你走到哪里，这恰恰是你唯一无法摆脱的事情。但我认为玛丽莲的能量源于一个更积极的心态，因此也更容易实现。她想去，她想拥有这种体验，而且觉得没有什么能阻挡她。她没有……她不把障碍看作阻碍，那些不过是通往你想做的事情途中需要迈过去的槛而已。所以我觉得对于让这件事情变成现实，她是相当关键的。
英文原文
>> I think it was quite obvious in a way and to people around him as well that there was a desire to shake off himself as much as anything else. And of course, what you realize in these situations is that's the one thing you can't do wherever you go. But I think Marilyn's energy came from a more positive place and therefore made it more fulfillable. She wanted to go. She wanted to have this experience and didn't see why anything should stop her. That she didn't she was she didn't see obstacles as obstacles. They were just things to pass through on your way to what you wanted to do. So I think she was pretty crucial to the to making this thing a reality.是的。我想莫里斯发现了也许我们许多人在某个时刻都会发现的事情，那就是你根本无法逃避自己。无论你去哪里，你都会带上自己，即便是在太平洋中央的一艘筏子上。
英文原文
>> Yeah. I guess Maurice discovered something that maybe many of us discover at some point, which is you just cannot escape yourself. You bring yourself with you wherever you go, even if it's on a raft in the middle of the Pacific.是的，或许尤其是那种时候。
英文原文
>> Yeah, probably especially.出海与遭遇意外
于是，他们在 1972 年 6 月离开英格兰前往新西兰，相当长一段时间里一切进展顺利。给我们讲讲在 1973 年 3 月一头鲸鱼撞上他们的船之前，都发生了些什么吧。
英文原文
>> So, they depart England in June 1972 and they head towards New Zealand and everything's going well for quite a while. Tell us what happened up until the point in March 1973 when a whale slammed into their boat.他们启航了，一切都出奇地顺利。他们走了一条经典路线。他们做了大量的准备和调研，在筹备上极其周密细致。他们把自己的船造了又改、反反复复修整了很多次，并规划了这条遵循全球经典环球航行路线的航程。他们一路向南穿过欧洲，前往马德拉、加那利群岛，然后横渡大西洋。所以他们毫无困难地横跨了一片大洋。那些日子天气万里无云，他们看着海豚在船边嬉戏，最后抵达了加勒比海群岛。这真的宛如一场梦幻，他们描述玛丽莲在一见到陆地时就浑身赤裸地冲上甲板，周围全是渔民，他们在庆祝，在一座又一座岛屿间度过了一段美妙的时光。在那里他们遇到了各种各样在做同样事情的水手，而莫里斯似乎以这种相当不同寻常的方式走出了内心的封闭，享受着他们参与的这一系列互动和社交活动。最终他们穿过了巴拿马运河，就在那时，他们进入了准备横渡太平洋的阶段。我认为在那之前，他们觉得自己几乎是所向披靡的。我觉得如果你航行了那么久，横渡了一片大洋，而且已经直面过相当残酷的风暴，任何事情似乎都有可能做到。所以我想他们启程横渡太平洋时，满怀信心，对自己的能力充满了底气。
英文原文
>> They set off and everything went extraordinarily smoothly. They did a classic route. They'd done huge amounts of preparation and research. They were meticulous in their preparations. They had built and rebuilt their boat many times over and they plotted this route following a classic circumnavigation route of the globe. So they went down through Europe over to Madiraa, the Canary Islands and then across the Atlantic. So they crossed an ocean without any problem at all. They had these sort of cloudless days and saw dolphins playing near the boat and arrived at the Caribbean islands. it just in a kind of fantasy really and Marilyn they describe sort of Marilyn coming up rushing up on on deck at the first side of land completely naked and there's all these sort of fishermen around and they're celebrating and they have an amazing time going from island to island where they meet all sorts of other sailors who are doing the same thing and Morris seems to come out of his shell in this rather extraordinary way and enjoys all these interactions and social events that they end up taking part in and eventually pass through the Panama Canal and then that's when they're at the point of preparing for the their Pacific crossing. And I think up to that point they felt almost invincible. I think if you've if you've sailed for that long, you've crossed an ocean, you've already come up against quite brutal storms. I think anything seems possible. So I I think they embarked on the Pacific crossing full of confidence and a sense of their own prowess really.他们决定不带无线电发射机。这么做明智吗，或者说常见吗？
英文原文
>> They decided not to have a radio transmitter. Was that wise or common?在我看来，显然不明智，而且我认为也不常见。显而易见，他们没有现在的任何技术、GPS 或其他设备。我认为这最深刻地揭示了莫里斯的心态以及他对这次旅行的诉求。这真的是一种纯粹主义者的方式。他学会了通过星辰导航，也拥有一些基础的导航工具和仪器，但他希望尽可能少借助现代科技。他不仅想向别人证明，更想向自己证明，仅凭自己的智慧和技能完成这样的事情是可行的。但他同时也想彻底切断与人类社会的联系，这就是他巨大的野心和强烈的渴望：真正脱离与陆地及陆地上人类的接触。以一种……我不知道，一种令人惊奇却又相当忧郁的方式呈现出来。我认为这非常符合他的性格。
英文原文
>> In my view, clearly not wise. And I don't think common. Obviously, they didn't have any of the technology or GPS or anything that you would have now. I think it speaks most revealingly to Morris's state of mind and his what he wanted from the trip. It was really a kind of purists method. He could had learned to navigate by the stars and he had some basic navigational tools and instruments, but he wanted as little technology as possible. He wanted to prove to himself as much as anyone else that it was feasible to do something like this based on your own wits and your own skill. But he also wanted to be severed right from human society. This was the great ambition and the great desire to be truly out of touch with the land and with its human beings. And in a kind of I don't know strangely impressive and yet also quite sort of melancholic way. I think that was just very much in keeping with his character.我们马上回来。[音乐]
英文原文
We'll be [music] right back.于是莫里斯和玛丽莲踏上了他们航程中的太平洋赛段。这一段进行得并不顺利。
英文原文
So Maurice and Marilyn embark on the Pacific leg of their journey. This leg does not go as well.他们航行了三天。他们的目标是加拉帕戈斯群岛，原本预计航程只有大约 10 天。同样，他们把一切都规划得井井有条，对自己要做的事情了如指掌。在深夜里，他们整晚每 3 小时轮换一次值班。我想是在半夜玛丽莲值班时，她看到了……这是在太平洋上罕见的景象，一艘把灯光照在大海上的船。她感到很震撼，琢磨着那是什么，但也没有多想。他们继续前行。到了早晨，他们都在楼下，都在船舱里。接着他们感觉到了……基本上就是碰撞的感觉。一旦冲上甲板，他们看到这头比他们的船还要长的巨大抹香鲸，他们意识到了发生了什么，并且被这一幕呆住了片刻。他们自己也极其生动地描述过这个场景，就是看着一头显然受了伤的鲸鱼把血流进大海里的景象。当他们事后回想时，怀疑在夜里看到的那艘船是不是一艘捕鲸船。他们试图把前因后果拼凑起来，但这已经无关紧要了。发生的事情是，鲸鱼从他们的船体侧面撕掉了一大块，海水正在涌入。不到一个小时的时间里，他们必须做出弃船的决定，充气……
英文原文
>> They're 3 days in. So they're aiming for the Galapagus, and it's only supposed to be about a 10-day journey. Again, they have it all mapped out. They know exactly what they're doing. And in the middle of the night, they swap over the watch every 3 hours through the night. And in the middle of the night, I think when Marilyn's on watch, she sees a it's a rare sight in the Pacific, but a a ship with light shining on the ocean. And she's struck, wonders what it is, doesn't think anything more of it. On they go. And in the morning, they are both downstairs. They're both down in the cabin. And they're they feel the sensation of collision basically. And once they rush up on deck and they see this huge sperm whale longer than their boat, they realize what's happened and they're transfixed by this site for a while. And they describe this themselves very eloquently, just this sight of a whale bleeding into the ocean who's obviously been injured. And when they look back on it, they wonder if the ship they'd seen in the night was a whailing ship. They tried to piece it together, but doesn't matter. What's happened is that the whale has torn a chunk out of the side of their boat and the water's coming in. And within an hour they have to make the decision to get off the boat, inflate……他们的救生筏，尽可能多地搬出物资，然后眼看着、接着眼看着他们的船相当迅速地沉入水中。
英文原文
their life rafts, get as much off as they can, and watch and they then watch their boat sink quite quickly into the water.玛丽莲不会游泳，对于我这样一个同样不会游泳的人来说，这似乎格外令人恐惧。你清楚她为什么一直——尽管在建造这艘船并居住在英国海岸的那些年里，他们有充裕的时间为这次航行做准备，她却自始至终都没有去学吗？
英文原文
>> Marilyn could not swim, which as someone who also cannot swim, seems doubly terrifying. Do you have any idea why she just even though they had years to prepare for this trip as they were building the boat and living on the English coast, she just never learned?是的，莫里斯曾试着教过她。他们确实做过努力，但我觉得她只是……她非常有自己的主见，如果她不想做某件事，她心中的界限就像她决定要做某件事时一样明确。而且我认为，她只是没有真正看到其中的紧迫性或必要性。如果真的出了差错，反正注定要出事，那就随它去，该发生的总会发生。她对待人生带有一种相当宿命的观念，正如他们后来在木筏上漂流时所充分体现的那样。而且我想，她大概觉得莫里斯会救她，或者他们总归能活下来，不然就是死路一条。我想在她心里可能也有一部分觉得，那样的事根本不可能真的发生，不过她当然是个乐观主义者。但事实确实是，她从来没学过。
英文原文
Yeah, Morris tried to teach her. There were efforts made, but I think she was just she really knew her own mind and if she wasn't going to do something that was as clear to her as if she was going to do something and she just I don't think saw the urgency or necessity really. If something went wrong, something was going to go wrong anyway and so be it that what would happen would happen. She had quite a fateful approach to life as would become very apparent once they would drift on the raft. And I think she thought Morris would rescue her or somehow they would survive or they wouldn't. And I imagine there was also part of her thinking that was something like that would never actually happen, but she was an optimist her course. But yeah, she never learned.太平洋中心的极度孤绝
据你所知，身处太平洋中心究竟是一种怎样的体验？当你从地图或地球仪上看去，那片大洋显得无边无际。
英文原文
>> What as best as you can tell is it like out there in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. An ocean when you look at it on a map or globe just seems endless.噢，我完全不知道。而这也正是一名非虚构作家必须承认或声明需要依靠调查与想象力的地方，因为我采访过许多有过航海经历的水手。我自己从没航行过，我需要同他人交谈，去获得身处大洋中心的那种感官体验——在那里你望不见陆地，而且深知自己距离陆地极其遥远。能和人们聊起这些感觉很不可思议，因为我认为身处那样的偏远之地确实是一种非常独特的体验。而且我认为在我们的星球上，要达到那种程度的与世隔绝是非常困难的。这让我深受触动。这显然正是莫里斯所极度渴望的，某种程度上也成了他的目标，就像他们早前横渡大西洋时，他最大的庆祝由头之一就是终于看不到陆地的踪影了。当然，当他们后来被困在其中时，曾经值得庆贺的事情就变成了一种折磨。他们动弹不得。没有任何……他们毫无能动性。放眼望去一无所有，而那片虚无本身就是一种恐惧的来源。
英文原文
>> Oh, I have no idea. And this is where as a non-fiction writer, I have to admit or state the powers of research and imagination because I spoke to a lot of sailors who had done trips. I'd never been sailing and I needed to talk to people to get that sensory experience of what it is to be in the middle of an ocean where you can't see land and where you know you're an incredibly long way from land. And it's amazing talking to people about that because it is a very particular thing I think just being that remote. And I think it's very hard to achieve on our planet of that degree of isolation. And I found it very moving. It was obviously something that that Morris craved and in a way that had become his object in a way like when they've crossed the Atlantic earlier that was one of his the greatest causes of celebration was to finally be out of sight of land. And then of course when they're stranded in it it what was a cause of celebration becomes a kind of form of torture. They can't move. There's no they have no agency. there is nothing to see and that nothingness is its own source of terror.我绝不想提前剧透这本书中间部分的任何细节，也就是他们在太平洋上漂流数月的那些真实遭遇。我确实非常鼓励听众去读一读这本书，这是一段极其震撼的旅程。但我很想知道，作为一名资深记者，以及一位致力于构建扣人心弦的非虚构叙事的人，你是否能挑出几个真正令你印象深刻的细节？
英文原文
>> I definitely don't want to ruin any of the details in the middle of this book about what their experience was like out there for many months in the Pacific. I really do urge listeners to read this book which is quite a journey. But I was wondering if you could just pick out a few that as as a longtime journalist, as someone who's trying to craft a a gripping non-fiction account really stood out to you.首先显然是那些基本的生理生存事实。同样地，他们自己在书里和日记中都对此做了非常详尽的记述。他们在应对生存挑战时有一种实事求是的态度：摸索如何用安全别针钓鱼；与那些聚集在他们救生筏周围的海龟进行力量博弈，并开始将它们当作食物。我认为书中真实描摹了那种具体的细节，比如玛丽莲不得不习惯吞食生鱼，那种你本能会感受到的反胃，而到了最后，这种状态又如何转变成一种近乎无所畏惧的狂热态度——他们会直接拍下落在木筏上的鸟，杀死并吃掉；或者她几乎徒手抓鲨鱼并把它们拖上救生筏。他们所经历的是一场惊人的生理之旅。我认为我发现更令人……在存在主义层面上更觉可怖的，是他们不得不经历的心理过程。我觉得这也体现在他们更具反思性的一些记叙中，尤其是莫里斯在事后呈现的状态。我认为他们很难在当下立即消化那一切究竟意味着什么，但他很早就陷入了绝望，他开始密谋如何用他们从船上带下来的瓦斯罐自杀；而与此同时，玛丽莲则在努力维持他的求生意志，对他们的生还希望抱有极其乐观的态度，莫里斯甚至觉得她疯了。但正是他们之间展开的这种非凡的较量——智识上的，实际上更是心态上的较量——关乎他们将如何熬过这段经历。还有她所采取的某些策略，无论是用纸片制作扑克牌，还是强迫他重读他们带上救生筏的那两本书，抑或是构想出他们未来要举办的各种天马行空、充满幻想的晚宴，并写下所有这些菜单。所以我想，为了努力让他们坚持下去，她想出了所有这些极具想象力的策略。我觉得其中一些举动几乎是最动人的，我想这恰恰展现了他们为了维持生存所必须触及的深层力量与付出的艰辛努力。
英文原文
>> There's the obvious like basic physical facts of survival. And again, they describe this themselves very well, both in their books and in the diaries. There's a matterof factness to the survival challenges they had figuring out how to catch fish with a safety pin. the muscular wrestles they would have to have with these turtles that would flock around their boat and they started to eat as well. I think describe the real the real specificity in Maryland having to get used to swallowing raw fish. the revulsion you would instinctively feel and then by the end how that translates into this kind of almost gung-ho attitude towards it where they're just swiping birds that land on the raft and killing them and eating them or she's like practically grabbing sharks with her bare hands and hauling them into the boat. It's it's a phenomenal physical journey they go on. I think what was I found almost I don't know more more horrifying on an existential level was the psychological process that they had to go through and I think that comes through in some of their more reflective well particularly with Morris almost after the event that I think it's quite hard for them to immediately process what that was but he hits despair very early he's plotting how to kill himself with a gas canister that they've managed to get off the boat and she meanwhile is trying to keep him afloat is wildly optimistic about their chances of survi survival and he thinks she's crazy, but it's this kind of extraordinary almost battle they have of wits and of attitude really in terms of how they're going to get through this experience. And it was some of those strategies that he had, whether it's like making playing cards out of bits of paper or forcing him to reread these two books that they've managed to have on board or coming up with these mad fantastical dinner parties that they're gonna have and writing out all these menus. So, she has all these incredibly imaginative tactics, I suppose, to try and to try and keep them going. And I found some of those almost the most moving and I suppose indicative of just of the depths they had to reach and to graft through in order to keep going.生存心理与目标感
关于生存需要付出什么，你觉得自己学到了什么？你谈到了心理因素的重要性，它与船上备有物资的多寡同样重要。你在书中写道，让人活下去的与其说是坚忍的壮举，不如说是没有放弃投降，我认为这再次印证了同处在这艘小艇、这个救生筏上的这两种不同的人格。
英文原文
>> What do you think you learned about what it takes to survive? You talk about the importance of psychology as much as the importance of how many supplies you have on board. And you write in your book, it is not so much the feats of endurance that keep people alive as the absence of surrender, which I think speaks to again these two different personalities that you have inhabiting this dingy in this life raft.在写这本书时，我阅读了相当多关于生存心理学的内容。从各种案例研究、轶事或对人们如何在相当长期的艰难处境中生存下来的心理分析中，真正触动我的是“目标感”和“有事可做”至关重要这一理念——如果你只是被困在那里无所事事，绝望很快就会蔓延开来。我认为玛丽莲有一种非凡的天赋，能够以一种非常本能的方式理解这一点。她知道他们必须保持忙碌，她知道自己必须让莫里斯有事可做，必须让他的大脑运转起来。因为处于停滞中的头脑，会开始自我消耗并自我拖垮。我们都知道这一点，对吧？我认为你并不非要被困在茫茫大洋中心才懂这个道理。而这也是这个故事吸引我的一部分原因：尽管它如此极端，但它所揭示出的两人对这场危机的两种截然不同的反应，却具有极大的普遍性。因为我认为，我们每个人从人生的某些阶段中，都能体会到那种空虚无物的时刻，或者失去目标感与方向感的状态，而那种状态远比直接面对艰难险阻、却受驱使去克服它要糟糕得多。我认为他们正是面对困境时这两种截然不同的反应的典型代表。正如我所说，她展现出了一种激发行动、创造目标的本能能力，而这对他能否生存下来至关重要。
英文原文
I I read quite a lot about the psychology of survival when I was doing this book and something that really struck me from various case studies or anecdotes or psychological analyses of how people have survived in quite long-term challenging circumstances are like about this idea of purpose and of occupation being really important that if you're just stranded and doing nothing despair can very quickly set in. And I think Marilyn had this extraordinary facility for understanding this in a very instinctive way. She knew they had to keep busy. She knew she had to keep Morris doing something. She had to keep his mind occupied. That it's a mind in repose. That is one that starts consuming itself and dragging itself down. We all know that, right? I don't think you have to be stranded in the middle of an ocean. And there was part partly that was also appealed to me about the story is that while it's so extreme, there is something very universal about what it exposes in their their two different very wildly different reactions to this this crisis. Because I think we all know from periods of our life those moments of of nothingness or where you lose a sense of purpose or a sense of direction and how that is much worse than just facing something difficult but being driven to overcome it. And I think they typified these two wildly different responses to what they were facing. And she demonstrated this as I say this instinctive capacity to generate activity and generate purpose which was so crucial to to his survival.独处与婚姻的考验
索菲，你独自一人的最长时间是多久？
英文原文
>> Sophie, what's the longest you've ever been alone?噢，好问题。
英文原文
Oh, good question.我曾经独自在一间小屋里待过一周写作。我当时……完全是一个人。不，我经常一个人待着。但我并不……是啊，我的意思是这算很短暂了，不是吗？对于……来说算是微不足道了。
英文原文
I spent a week alone once writing in a hut. I was I completely alone. No, but I was alone a lot. But I don't Yeah, I mean it's pretty minimal, isn't it? It's pretty small for a不，[笑声] 我想大多数人所经历的，都绝不可能接近这两个人所承受的那种程度的孤独。但我一直很好奇，尤其是在我们这个被科技浸透的世界里，人们是如何看待孤独的。人们是否能够……
英文原文
>> No, [laughter] I I don't think most people have anything approaching the the level of solitude that these two people have. But I am always curious as to particularly in our technology soaked world, you know, what how people find solitude. Can people坐下来，长时间与自己的思想共处？
英文原文
>> sit and exist with their own thoughts for an extended period of time?对。但同时，人们是否能坐下来，与自己的伴侣共处？
英文原文
>> Yeah. But also, can people sit and exist with their partner?是的，我接下来正打算问你这个，也就是你的书名叫作《海上婚姻》。它关乎身在海上，但也关乎婚姻生活。
英文原文
>> Yes, I was going to I was going to ask you about that next, which is your book is called a marriage at sea. It's about being at sea, but it's also about being married.你觉得你从这个故事中对婚姻有了怎样的认识？有什么是可以从中推演总结的吗？我知道这是一段在重压之下的婚姻，一段处于极端境况下的婚姻。
英文原文
>> What do you think you learned about marriage from this story? Is there anything that one can extrapolate from it? I know this is a marriage under duress, a marriage in extreme circumstances.我向来对宣称自己学到了什么心存顾虑，因为我不确定 [笑声] 自己是否真的学到过，或者至少我的想法一直在变。但我确实觉得他们极其抓人眼球，而且怎么说呢，谈不上是鼓舞人心——这个词不太确切——但在某些方面很有启发性，特别是当然，对于玛丽莲而言，就……
英文原文
>> I'm always wary of saying I'd learned things because I'm not sure [laughter] I ever have or at least I changed my mind. But I did find them incredibly compelling and I don't know, not inspiring. That isn't quite the right word, but instructive in some ways in terms of especially Marilyn, of course, in terms of,正如我所说，是她不得不在自己内心寻找到的东西，以及她意识到自己必须为他寻找到的东西。我想，这就是那种协作。也就是那种意识到我们能够在多大程度上彼此影响、为彼此营造情绪的领悟——你们并不是作为两个人生活在各自孤立的气泡里，那种程度的联结与相互依赖是持续存在的，而且你不必非得漂流在海洋上才能意识到这一点。我觉得这也是一种理解：菲利斯·罗斯（Phyllis Rose）在她那本关于维多利亚时代已婚夫妇的精彩著作中谈到了那种权力，基本上每段婚姻都存在某种权力动态。我认为这绝对是真的。这就是政治开始的地方，或者说是小写的“p”意义上的政治开始的地方之一，就在婚姻内部。那种谁来引领、谁来跟随，谁在提振、谁需要被提振的想法，所有这些不断变化的动态，以及当情况不好时，你们能如何彼此帮助，就像彼此惩罚一样。但我认为这确实引发了许多思考。
英文原文
as I say, what she had to find within herself and what she recognized she had to find for him. And I suppose it's that sort of collaboration. And it's that realization of of the degree to which we can influence and create moods for each other that that you don't just live as two in your isolated bubbles that that sort of degree of connection and inter reliance is constant and you don't have to just be a drift on an ocean to realize that and I think it was also understanding that Phyllis Rose in her amazing book about Victorian married couples talks about the kind of power that every marriage has a sort of power dynamic basically And that I think it's absolutely true. It's where politics begins or one of the places politics begins in the small P way is within a marriage. And that idea of who leads and who follows and who raises and who needs to be raised all those endless shifting dynamics and how you can help each other as much as punish each other I guess when it's not good. But I think that just gave a lot of food for thought.你说你从来没航海过。你从来没航海过。你和大海之间是什么关系？
英文原文
>> You say you had never been sailing. You have never been sailing. What is your relationship to the sea?我喜欢在海里游泳，我喜欢在海里游泳，但你知道，是那种陆地就在附近的海域。它就在那里。我知道我能回到陆地上。我知道我在英国长大，所以你知道，在这个国家海岸线从来都不会太远，而且我姐姐住在海边，所以无论一年中的什么时候、无论在什么样的天气条件下，我都发现自己身处英国的海滩上，我想这意味着你对它的力量怀有一种相当健康的敬畏。写这本书丝毫没有让我产生任何急切地想要去航海的冲动。不过，[笑声]
英文原文
>> I like to swim in it and I like to swim in it, but you know where the land is close. It's there. I know I can get back to it. I know I grew up in England, so you know the it's the coast is never that far away in this country and my sister lives near the sea and so I I find myself on English beaches at all times of year and in all kinds of conditions and I think that means you have a pretty healthy respect for it its power. I I writing this book has not made me in any urgent way want to go sailing. However, [laughter]听起来你至少学到了一件事，
英文原文
>> it sounds like you learned one thing at least,对吧？是的，这一点很明确。
英文原文
>> right? Yeah, that's clear.调研与非虚构写作
我很想听你聊聊你是如何为这本书做调研的，因为正如你所说、正如你在书中所写的那样，莫里斯和玛丽莲写过他们自己的叙述。他们写了好几本书。你依靠了哪些资料来源？然后，你是如何在利用这些一手资料的同时，努力營造一种内心世界感，让我们能够与处于这些极端环境中的人物产生联结的？
英文原文
>> I'd love to hear about how you researched this book cuz as you said and as you write in your book, Maurice and Marilyn wrote their own account. They wrote several books. What sources did you did you rely on? And then how did you balance using those primary sources while also trying to achieve a sense of interiority that allows us to like connect with the people under these extreme circumstances?那些绝对是最主要的一手资料。我从他们的书、他们的文字以及多年来接受的电台、电视和报刊采访中汲取了大量素材。有海量直接来自他们讲述和撰写的内容可供汲取，这太不可思议了。但我也知道这在某种程度上是有限的，虽然它能提供一些内心世界感和思维过程，而且就她的日记而言，能提供关于他们所经历事情的非常即时的想法和反应——那确实是她在救生筏上亲历时一笔一画、逐日记录和描绘下来的，能拥有这些是一件令人难以置信的事——但随后你也完全依赖于他们对自己的一面之词了。我认为我真正想做的也是尝试跳出他们的视角，从外部去理解他们的婚姻，以他们自己可能未曾描述过的方式去理解他们的性格特征。这很大程度上取决于我交谈过的那些人：他们的朋友、亲戚、曾与他们一起航海的人。有几位老朋友，尤其是科林·福斯卡（Colin Foskar），他是那两对已婚夫妇中最后一位健在的成员，他们在启程进行这次航行之前就是朋友，之后又陪伴他们进行了继这次航行之后的第二次大航海。因此他曾和他们两人在一艘船上共度过数月之久。所以他是一位极其慷慨的受访者，能够真正从一个身处船上那极其狭窄、充满挑战且残酷无休的空间，并且必须做这类航行中所有必做之事的人的视角，告诉我那究竟是怎样的体验。我认为也是同他的交谈，真正让我对莫里斯以及他身上的一些复杂性和特质有了那种、我想可以说是截然不同的视角，尤其是到了他晚年的时候。对我来说，讲述故事的这一面、将目光投向老年时期，去看看那些在生命早期有过这段非凡经历的人生最终变成了什么样，是非常重要的。这本书本可以有一种只以他们获救作为结尾的版本，但那绝不是我想讲的故事。是的，我确实非常依赖朋友、邻居以及他们光顾过的咖啡馆的工作人员，各种各样不同的人，来填补其中的许多空白。
英文原文
>> Those were absolutely the primary sources. I drew a lot from their books and their writing and interviews they gave radio, TV, press interviews over the years. There was a huge amount of just them directly talking and writing to draw which was incredible. But it was also I knew limited to a certain extent in that while it could give some of that interiority and sense of thought process and in the case of her diary very immediate thought and reaction about what they were going through it was literally day by day written and drawn while she was there on the raft which was an incredible thing to be able to have but you're also then only reliant on their account of themselves. And I think what I also really wanted to do was to try and step outside them and understand their marriage from the outside to understand their characters in ways that they might not have described themselves. And that that was hugely to do with the people I spoke to, friends of theirs relations, people who'd sailed with them. There were a couple of old friends, Colin Foskar in particular, who was the last living member of these two married couples who were friends from before they set off on this journey and then accompanied them on the the second big voyage they did after after this one. And so he'd spent months on a boat with both of them. So he was just an incredibly generous interviewee and could really tell me what that was like from the perspective of of someone in in that very confined and challenging and relentless space of a boat and having to do all the things that you have to do on a voyage like that. And I think that it was talking to him also that really gave me that I suppose such a that different perspective on Morris and some of his complexities and particularities especially later in life. And that was really important for me to tell that that side of the story to cast forward into old age and to see what these lives that had this extraordinary episode early on in their life what those lives became. I there's a version of the book that could have just ended with their rescue, but that that was never the one I wanted to tell. And yeah, I really depended on on friends and neighbors and people who worked in cafes where they went, all sorts of different people to fill in a lot of those gaps.索菲，针对这样一本非虚构类书籍，你经常会看到这样一句话——“引人入胜，读起来像一部小说”，这是极好的宣传语，但作为一个记者对另一个记者说话，我很好奇你是如何努力达到这种效果的，同时又明白非虚构写作必须作为它自身而独立存在，它本身就很优秀，不一定需要被比作小说才显得引人入胜。
英文原文
>> Sophie, you often see this phrase with a a non-fiction book like this, it's so gripping it reads like a novel, which is great marketing, but as a journalist speaking to a journalist. I'm curious about how you try to achieve that effect while also understanding that non-fiction has to exist as its own thing and it's good in its own right and it doesn't necessarily need to be compared to a novel in order to be gripping.非虚构小说或叙事性非虚构的整个理念，你知道，这并不是什么新鲜事。我觉得在美国，你们一直都在这么做，而且已经做了几十年，非常出名。我认为我内心深处在非常自觉地尝试效仿多年来对我意义重大的那些作品，从不知道该说是杜鲁门·卡波特（Truman Capote）还是琼·狄迪恩（Joan Didion），或是各种在描写真实事件的同时实现了那种叙事推进力的优秀作家。这个故事吸引我、让我觉得它可以写成一本书的地方，就像我之前说的，是其中的亲密感部分和人物性格部分，那种置身于他人内心之中的感觉，以及几乎实时地真正去理解他们的动机和他们为什么做出那些行为的感觉。这些都是我认为在小说中更常发现的东西。所以我想，不可避免地，我最终借鉴了一些小说的手法，并且我认为，为了做到这一点，在一定程度上拓展了非虚构写作的某些边界。
英文原文
>> The whole idea of the non-fiction novel or narrative non-fiction, you know, this is nothing new. I feel like in America you guys do it and have been doing it for many decades and very famously. And I think part of me was very consciously trying to emulate some of the books that have meant a lot to me over the years from I don't know Truman Capot to Joan Ddian or all sorts of amazing writers who have achieved that kind of narrative propulsion while writing about real events. What caught me about the story and made me think it was a book was like I said before the intimacy part of it and the character part of it that sense of being inside people's minds and of really trying to understand almost in real time their motivations and why they do what they do. Those are all things that I suppose you find more often in novels. And so I guess inevitably I I ended up borrowing some of the novelistic devices and stretching I suppose some of the limits of non-fiction in order to do that.索菲，想必你——这在我读这本书时也发生了——想必你想过，在类似的情况下，你或者你和你所爱的人是否能够幸存下来。你能吗？
英文原文
>> Sophie, surely you and this happened to me while I was reading the book. You have thought about whether or not you or you and a loved one would be able to survive under similar circumstances. Would you?噢，见鬼，不能。我丈夫和我早在很久以前就进行过这场对话，他非常直截了当地说，到了第二天他就会带着一种敬礼的姿态直接滑下船舷。而我当时觉得自己或许比他能多撑几天，或者怀有某种想要坚持下去的倔强愿望。但你知道，这又是，就像我被这个故事和这些人吸引的原因之一，是因为我立刻就对莫里斯产生了比对玛丽莲强烈得多的共鸣。我希望自己能像玛丽莲一样，我希望自己能拥有她那种坚韧、乐观和务实，但在所有这些方面我都欠缺，反而全由焦虑和自我怀疑给占满了。在那样的一种场景下，我对自己不抱太大希望。我不知道。我倾向于认为我们大家也许都会为自己身上某些未曾察觉的求生特质感到惊讶。某种韧性会被激发出来，也许几周之内我们大家都会在那儿徒手勒死海鸟了。现在你去参加聚会或晚宴时，是不是也会发生这种情况？人们围坐在一桌然后问：“好吧，你认为你能在海上的救生筏上活多久？”
英文原文
>> Oh heck no. My husband and I had this conversation very early on and he was very blunt and said he would just slide over the edge on day two with a little kind of salute. And I figured that I might have a couple more days than me or some sort of stubborn desire to carry on. But you know part again like one of the reasons I was drawn to this story and these people was because immediately I identified much more strongly with Morris than I did with Marilyn. I wished I was a Marilyn and I wish I had her sort of fortitude and optimism and pragmatism, but I lack in all those departments and make up for them in anxiety and self-doubt. I don't hold that much hope for myself in such a scenario. I don't know. I like to think we can all maybe we would all surprise ourselves with some of those, you know, survival qualities we didn't know we had. Some sort of resilience would kick in and maybe we'd all be strangling seabirds within a couple of weeks. Is this a thing that happens now when you go to parties or when you go to dinners? People go around the table and say, "Okay, how long do you think you would survive on a raft at sea?"是的。你知道经常发生且让我非常享受的一件事是，在朗诵会或类似场合，人们会走上前来跟我讲述在他们自己的婚姻或伴侣关系中会发生什么。“天哪。就像他——我没法信任他。他会是个灾难”，或者诸如此类的，他们就是——是的。我能听到关于谁在他们的婚姻中扮演什么角色的相当私密的倾诉。这似乎确实成了一个棱镜，人们可以通过它相当迅速地剖析各自在婚姻中的角色、技能或能力的欠缺，这确实让人大开眼界，这是肯定的。
英文原文
>> Yeah. You know what happens a lot which I am really enjoying is that people come up to me at a reading or something and just tell me what would happen in their own marriage or their own partnership. Oh my god. Like he I couldn't trust him. He'd be a disaster or and they just Yeah. I get there's quite an intimate download on who performs what role in their marriage. It does seem to be a prison through which people can quite quickly analyze the their respective roles and skills or lack of them in their marriage which it's been enlightening that's for sure.我一定要开始去问我的朋友们：在这只救生筏上你会是谁？你认为你能活多久？[音乐] 索菲，你挺过了这次采访。非常感谢你和我们畅谈你的新书《海上婚姻》（A Marriage at Sea）。真是一部极佳的读物。非常高兴你能加入我们。
英文原文
>> I'm definitely going to start asking my friends, who would you be on this raft? How long do you think you can survive? [music] Sophie, you've survived this interview. Thank you very much for speaking to us about your new book, A Marriage at Sea. It's such a great read. I'm so happy you joined us here.非常感谢你们邀请我。
《海上婚姻：关于爱、执念与海难的真实故事》（A Marriage at Sea: A True Story of Love, Obsession, and Shipwreck）是
英文原文
>> Thanks so much for having me. A marriage at Sea: A True Story of Love, Obsession, and Shipwreck, is现在已推出平装本。《纽约时报书评》（The Book Review）节目由萨拉·戴蒙德（Sarah Diamond）、艾米·珀尔（Amy Pearl）[音乐]以及帕特里夏·苏巴兰（Patricia Subaran）制作。特雷西·芒福德（Tracy Mumford）担任编辑，佩德罗·罗萨多（Pedro Rosado）混音。原创音乐来自丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）与艾丽西亚·鲍普（Alicia Baup）。特别感谢达利亚·哈达德（Dalia Hadad）。
英文原文
now available in paperback. The book review is produced by Sarah Diamond, Amy Pearl, [music] and Patricia Subaran. It's edited by Tracy Mumford and mixed by Pedro Rosado. Original music by Dan Powell and Alicia Baup. Special thanks to Dalia Hadad.我们非常想听听您对节目的看法，请发送电子邮件至 bookreview@nytimes.com。我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹（Gilbert Cruz）。[音乐]感谢您的收听。[音乐]