打破既定时间线：我退掉婚约、离开教会与走出耻感

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Anna Martin: >> Love now and >> fall in love. I love >> love stronger than anything. >> For the love of love, >> and I love you more than anything. >> Just love. >> From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love and today I'm talking to the comedian Taylor Tomlinson. For most of her life, Taylor had this [music] idea of a timeline. And I know lots of people have something like this. It's like get a serious job by your mid20s, get married by 30, have kids by 35, get a house with a picket fence and a twocar garage. [music] Whatever your version of the good life is, a timeline is a way to make sure you're on track. And when she was 25, Taylor [music] was. Her comedy career was taking off. She was engaged to this great guy, ready to start married life with him. And as far as career goes, Taylor has stayed right on schedule. She's recorded a bunch of comedy specials, hosted a late night show on network TV, and she just wrote a memoir. But the other parts of her life did not go the way she expected, especially the marriage part. Today, I talked to Taylor Tomlinson about what happens when your timeline gets all kinds of messed up and how to go for what you want next while accepting where you are now.

Anna Martin: Taylor Tomlinson, welcome to Modern Love.

Taylor Tomlinson: Thank you so much for having me.

Anna Martin: Thank you for being here. Taylor, we have at least one thing in common, which is that uh you and I both grew up in religious families and now we talk about sex like all the time for our job. What a path.

Taylor Tomlinson: I know, right? We really like Are you impressed with us? I am impressed. I'm like if they could see us now and then it's sort of like they are seeing us now. [laughter]

Anna Martin: You're like no it's actually everything we're doing is very public.

Taylor Tomlinson: 100%.

Anna Martin: I was so in your book in your memoir you talk about starting off your stand-up journey in the church standup comedy circuit which I did not know they didn't have that in my church.

Taylor Tomlinson: No. No. It's it's not something that many churches have. I mean, and a lot of times it was we were coming in to do like a a church comedy night that was meant as like outreach or to like an event to get people in the door. Like some churches would have carnivals. And of course, there are lots of church comedians who that tour churches like theaters.

Anna Martin: Ah, I was wondering if you were competing with the worship band. Aren't they always so cute? The drummers especially

Taylor Tomlinson: so connected to the Lord.

Anna Martin: I know. What a turn on. [laughter] when they're strumming and they get real quiet

Taylor Tomlinson: 100% they say yeah everyone close your eyes

Anna Martin: okay Taylor in your new memoir which is called actually never mind you write about this very intense moment in your life it's the moment when you told the man you were engaged to that you were not going through with the wedding and I want to go back to that time first of all tell me tell me what you can about this guy how did you how did you fall in love

Taylor Tomlinson: oh gosh what a big question um he was somebody who worked in was not a comedian but worked in this world and felt like a perfect fit because it was within the comedy world but not another comedian and it was very from what I remember it's it's funny to say that I remember it moving slowly because we were engaged after a year which is insanely fast but the beginning felt very slow to me and it was the first time that I had dated somebody that made me feel very calm. And I was coming off of another breakup, uh, which was pretty much my entire 20s was me going pretty quickly from relationship to relationship. I was very much a serial monogamous. But yeah, I just remember it was like very slow, very calm, very like stable and yeah, steady. And I at this point, you know, I met him when I was 24 and at this point in my life, I'm 32 now, and I don't even know how I could feel so sure about somebody that quickly now. Like, I don't know that I even have that ability anymore. It It feels like something that was the result of being so young, I guess.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Um, did you have a vision for the kind of future you wanted with this person? And if so, what did that what did that look like?

Taylor Tomlinson: Yes. I think consciously and unconsciously, I mean, I grew up so religious and everybody in my family had been married a long time and got married very young. Everyone had gotten married in college, right out of college. And so for me at 24, 25, I was late. [laughter] you know,

Anna Martin: they're like, "Taylor, time is up."

Taylor Tomlinson: For Yeah. for a deeply Christian family, everyone's like, "Okay, when are we going to get to it?" So, to me, maybe that's why it didn't feel so fast to me because I felt like, well, I'm I'm 25. This is I'm I'm a full adult, you know? So I I think that I had a vision in my head from a very young age of being married, having kids, and even as I sort of lost touch with my faith and and stopped being religious, I still wanted that. I still very much wanted that picture in my head of marriage and family. And in a way, I was holding on to that because I wasn't a Christian anymore. And I think I needed to show my family on some level like, hey, I know I'm not a Christian anymore. I know I'm not a clean comedian anymore. I've

Anna Martin: clean meaning you're you're describe clean. What does that mean? Yeah.

Taylor Tomlinson: Yeah. So, uh, to perform in churches and to do a lot of corporates and to be on certain television programs, like to work clean means you don't swear, you don't talk about sex, you don't even really talk about anything that dark or controversial or edgy. And I think I felt that I had come up short in a lot of areas and that I just wasn't the type of person that maybe certain members of my family would be proud of. And I think at the time I I did very much want to marry this guy, but also alongside that and I didn't realize until later, I think I felt like, okay, if I can at least be married,

Anna Martin: maybe my family won't be as offended by me talking about sex on stage and swearing. So interesting.

Taylor Tomlinson: Yes. Because I was like, well, at least I'll be a married woman and I'll be moral and correct in that way. You know,

Anna Martin: it's like a tether to an old part of your life. This marriage would be this married life. It would like give you some bridge maybe between those two selves. It makes a lot of sense. What was the engagement like? How did that go down?

Taylor Tomlinson: The engagement was honestly my dream proposal. I think a close

Anna Martin: Had you dreamed about your proposal?

Taylor Tomlinson: Oh yeah, I definitely had. Yes. And I think cuz we had talked about it. I mean i like a big letters of our names and it was so beautiful and just a place that I

Anna Martin: wow

Taylor Tomlinson: and he proposed in front of my family. I come from a big family with lots of kids.

Anna Martin: Yeah. You're the oldest.

Taylor Tomlinson: I'm the oldest. Yeah. of three. And so he proposed to me and as soon as I said yes, all of my family like jumped out from where they were hiding.

Anna Martin: I mean, it's a movie. It was really lovely. It was so beautiful.

Taylor Tomlinson: You can say I was proposed to my grandparents orchard.

Anna Martin: I mean, that's just And what kind of orchard? I have to ask.

Taylor Tomlinson: It's a walnut orchard.

Anna Martin: Oh my god. [laughter]

Taylor Tomlinson: I know. I know. And I really What's so funny is I knew he was going to propose. I didn't know what day. And I should have because I remember we were getting ready in the morning and I remember him saying, "Do you want to take a shower?" Or like, "Do you want to wash your hair?"

Anna Martin: Just a slight suggestion. Yeah.

Taylor Tomlinson: Just a slight suggestion. And I still, it didn't even occur to me. And I was like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, I probably should wash my hair." But

Anna Martin: I don't know. If a boyfriend said that to me, I'd be like, "That is none of your business. I have a strict schedule."

Taylor Tomlinson: It's so funny. I mean, he was such a such a gentle man. Uh, that can pull off a suggestion like that cuz I didn't think anything of it other than, "Yeah, I suppose I should." [laughter] Um, if you're saying something, not knowing, of course, like, oh, there's going to be photos. But yeah, I mean, in every photo, I was just weeping. They are not cute photos of me.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Did you have any, I don't know, doubt or hesitation when you said yes or was it immediate for you?

Taylor Tomlinson: No, I had no doubt or hesitation. M I mean even the next day I remember like waking up the next day and like going into the orchard before everyone woke up to journal and just I still have that journal entry where I just wrote like I'm so sure about this and I'm so excited for my future with this person and I truly felt so sure. I think the only doubt I felt over the course of our short engagement was I am really young and there are parts of me that are not going to be explored if I do this. But at the time I felt that that trade-off was worth it to be with this person. You know, I quietly knew that I was not straight and was making peace with that in my head. And in some ways, I think that was another reason I was hoping to get married to a man because it would be acceptable to my more conservative family members. And I thought maybe my queer feelings would just be some private secret I had with myself for the rest of my life.

Anna Martin: Was queerness something that you wrote down in the journal at that point like I will not be able to explore this or was that not even named to yourself at that time? Does that make sense?

Taylor Tomlinson: I had written about it not on that specific day. That specific day I remember all it and I only remember because I reread it recently that I was just so sure and I was so happy and I felt so settled and I felt like wow my life is going in the direction that I think it's supposed to. And I apologize to everyone listening to this podcast who is in that place right now and is thinking oh I'm so sure.

Anna Martin: Yeah. because I don't want to place any seeds of doubt in your mind. Some people are sure and they're right. But it is also very scary and part of why it gets so much harder to fall in love as you get older, I think, because you have had so many moments where you thought you were so sure.

Taylor Tomlinson: Absolutely. And it and it didn't turn out the way you thought it would or it didn't last. And so it it becomes harder and harder to take that leap and trust those feelings of certainty. And I I remember even I I mentioned it to him at one point after we were engaged. And one of the things that I so appreciated about him was that I remember I had said that I'd been attracted to women and he said, "Well, is that something you feel like you need to explore?"

Taylor Tomlinson: And not in a salacious way that sometimes like straight guys say when they go, "Well, well, do you need [laughter] to do you need to have a threesome to figure it out? Cuz I'll I'll do that, babe. I'll fall [laughter] on that sword. It wasn't like that. It was just a genuine question of like, is that something you feel you need to explore? And I and I remember I was like, "No, no, no. We're engaged. I don't need to I just I just kind of in that moment, I think I was like, I just want this person to know everything about me." And it's one of the memories I have of him that I go, you know, that's like a good guy.

Anna Martin: H Yeah. I mean, I know that it's around this time of your engagement that you start to revisit your mom's journals. I should say your mom died of cancer when you were eight. She was 34. Uh, and you're reading her journals and especially reading about when she was engaged to your dad. And I really want to understand what that was like for you. Like, what were you reading? How were you processing it?

Taylor Tomlinson: Well, it's so interesting because she and my dad got engaged when they were still in college.

Anna Martin: Younger than you. Yeah.

Taylor Tomlinson: Younger than me. Yes. And I think she had me at 25. And there's there's so many entries in her college journal about their relationship and about the arguments they were having and the experiences they were having. And there's one entry in particular where she's talking about her feelings about getting married and talking about how sometimes the idea of being married for the rest of her life really scares her. And it was interesting to read because she was going to a Christian school. marriage was a huge goal for her and she's not here for me to ask and I wish she was and other people can only speculate so much about how she felt but I do think she had doubts about getting married about marrying my dad and was also at the same time very excited and probably had moments where she was very certain

Anna Martin: and you tend to write more about moments of doubt out in your diary that you don't think your children will ever read.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Did reading about her doubts, what did that do to your own? I mean, at this point, were you reading this before the engagement or you reading it after?

Taylor Tomlinson: I read them before. I read them years before when I was dating somebody in college that I thought, "Oh, I'm going to marry this person." You know, that was kind of the first time. And that was very much like, I'm 19 years old. I'm in college. I'm Christian. this is what you do, you know. And I remember reading her journal at that point was even more impactful because I felt that it it it was still within the realm of possibility that I had a timeline similar to hers. M and so to be engaged at 25 and getting married at 26 or 27 as opposed to you know 23 24 to me felt like wow look at my maturity. [laughter] I really I really gave it a couple years. I really I didn't marry the guy in college that I met I didn't marry the first person I felt this way about. I've given it time and I've dated a lot of people and and so I think that was part of why I felt so sure is

Taylor Tomlinson: I had already gone through that moment of reading her college journal. So I I felt that when that person and I broke up in college, that was a huge moment for me where I went, okay, well, I was having similar doubts and now I get to go experience more than my mom did.

Anna Martin: Well, speak more on that. That's I mean there's a lot there. So when it came to your let's say your marriage, for example, you got engaged at 25. Were you sort of like okay we are on track for this sort of looming I don't know this age of 34 it's like I'm accomplishing these things before this age that is sort of terrifying to me is that how it felt

Taylor Tomlinson: yeah from everything that I have heard and read and been told in therapy it's a very common fear when you have a parent die young that you have this belief that you too are going to die at that age so I grew up feeling that way I couldn't imagine my life past 34 and only recently have I really been able to because I'm 32 now. And it is it does it does affect everything you do and every decision you make and every goal you have because you think you're racing against this clock, you know?

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Taylor Tomlinson: Like I didn't want to have kids until I turned 34. I cuz that fear was so ingrained in me that I thought, well, if you make it past 34

Anna Martin: Wow. Because you were worried.

Taylor Tomlinson: Yes.

Anna Martin: Oh my gosh. That they would they would not have you.

Taylor Tomlinson: Exactly. So, I it was I was very aware of it, but I did want to be married and I wanted to accomplish all of these things career-wise

Anna Martin: from that peak, right? You make this decision to end the engagement. And I'm so I really want to understand like what happened for you to bring you from that certainty to calling it off? You know what happened? What what changed for you?

Taylor Tomlinson: I think the biggest thing that I didn't realize until later is I was at the beginning of what was going to be a yearslong mental health episode, essentially. And I didn't know yet that I had bipolar disorder and that had started to get seismic.

Anna Martin: seismic.

Taylor Tomlinson: Oh my gosh. It's Yes. So the reason I take so much responsibility for the end of that relationship is because I could not regulate myself. And I didn't know what was a problem with him versus what was a problem with me. And any relationship, people fight, you know, and have arguments over which we have for dinner. Yeah.

Taylor Tomlinson: Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, the way it sort of ended without getting into detail was like we had this fight that I then blew up into this huge like catastrophic thing. No, I mean, it was not a clean break at all. I mean, it was a few months of couples therapy and going back and forth and like it was it was rough. And we tried everything, but I just I was really did not handle it well and did not know how much help I needed. And I'm so grateful. I'm trying to think of the right way to say it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think sometimes people are put in your life or people come into your life because it's important for you to go, "Oh, I have a problem." And finally find a medication that worked for me and and a diagnosis that made sense to me. And ultimately, I think it was the best thing that ever happened to either of us was to not go through with that.

Anna Martin: How long after that did you actually start dating women or claiming this identity?

Taylor Tomlinson: I think it was still a couple years. It was probably around I was like 28, I think. cuz my my feeling as someone who uh identifies as bisexual is like I felt very scared to claim any sort of queer label without enough queer experiences under my belt. And I think a lot of bi people feel that way. And I not to keep going back to growing up in the church, but it is just the foundation of everything about me.

Anna Martin: Yeah. I had to get over the guilt around having sex at all.

Taylor Tomlinson: Yeah.

Anna Martin: So there was [laughter] there was all this layers here. Yeah.

Taylor Tomlinson: Yeah. There I felt horrible about having sex with men for so long. And then to get to a place where I was like, okay, it's morally acceptable for me to do that with men. And then to be like, "Well, what about women?" Then it was like, "Oh, but that's like the bad kind."

Anna Martin: Yeah. Do you remember a conversation you had with one of your siblings where it really did click for you? Like I I can explore this?

Taylor Tomlinson: I think it was a lot of little conversations. I think they had to say the same thing to me over and over for me to go, okay, I'm going to I'm going to start going on dates with women. But even after I was like going on dates with women, I know. I know. It was so It was so weird. And it it's this like strange imposttor syndrome that I had that I think a lot of people did. And it was I I had so much fear around dating women for so many reasons, but I was I was scared that it would unleash a fresh wave of uh like sexual guilt because my younger years, like when I was first having sex, I mean, it was like, you know, sometimes you just feel horrible. like it'll just hit you sideways in the middle of uh having sex with somebody that you're like a dirty disgusting disappointment because you're not married or whatever. And so I was just scared of experiencing that again from a different angle. And then when I started dating women and I was sleeping with women, I actually didn't find that. I found that I was very comfortable and very much myself and I was just so like it sounds silly but I was just like grateful to be there [laughter] you know where I was just like this woman like in this bed or whatever you are.

Anna Martin: I wonder if you can give me you know as much as you want to share a moment with a woman that you were dating where you also felt that kind of clarity like oh this is this is right. Is there a moment that comes to mind?

Taylor Tomlinson: I remember I dated a woman who had grown up similarly religious and I've dated men and women who grew up with that background and there's always a shortorthhand with people who grew up super religious cuz they just understand and it is so fun to be like laying in bed naked with somebody going, "God, can you imagine?" Like, can you imagine if we had [laughter] stayed in that place of like shame and terror and like how great this is and how we would have never experienced this if we had done everything by the book. The book being the Bible,

Anna Martin: of course.

Taylor Tomlinson: It's just like it's really really lovely. It makes you excited to be alive.

Anna Martin: [music] We'll be right back. [music]

Anna Martin: [music] I'm thinking about 34 as the age that had always been in your mind as this milestone year and I'm curious now that you are you know identifying as queer and you're dating it sounds like men and women although you tell me men and women

Taylor Tomlinson: men and women but yeah I mean mainly women the last couple of years but yes yeah

Anna Martin: and single it sounds I unpartnered right now. Yeah. I just I'm curious how now you think about You're 32, closer to 34. How do you think about that age now?

Taylor Tomlinson: How do I think about that age now? I think it depends. If you catch me when I'm sick, I'm like, it's all [laughter] this is the end. And then when I'm feeling healthy, I'm like, I feel good about it. And I feel excited to get older and become more myself and experience life as this person I've become. I mean, I try to live in that space because it is easy to slip into, especially like around the holidays when like all of your siblings have [laughter] their partners.

Anna Martin: All your siblings have partners.

Taylor Tomlinson: All my siblings have partners.

Anna Martin: Well, yeah. Same.

Taylor Tomlinson: How many siblings do you have?

Anna Martin: I have two younger sisters.

Taylor Tomlinson: You have two younger siblings and they're in relation. And are you single?

Anna Martin: I am.

Taylor Tomlinson: I mean, I'm curious if you feel this way. I It is tough when your younger siblings are ahead of you romantically and you're like, I'm out here trying. [laughter] I am out here trying.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious how you because we're joking about it, but it actually is a very real thing. Um Yeah. I wonder I wonder how you when you're feeling this way, what do you tell yourself? I'm asking for a friend myself.

Taylor Tomlinson: I know. [laughter] When I when I feel this way, what do I tell myself? I think I just tell myself that it's just nice to be in their lives. I mean, I feel like if all I can manage is being the cool aunt to their kids and the cool sister-in-law to their partners, like that would be okay. Like that would be fine and that would be a beautiful life. So, I think that's what I try to tell myself because I do want to truly be okay with the idea that I might not find somebody that I want to spend the rest of my life with and that would be fine. But it is something I really do want. And then other times I think I should be out there attacking that goal like I have with my career goals. So I don't know. I I I definitely go between the two.

Anna Martin: We talked about how it was tough for you to imagine life beyond 34, right? So, I'm curious now. Do you see the future beyond that age? And what do you hope for it if you envision it?

Taylor Tomlinson: I do. I think I do. And I'm scared to even say that because I there's some superstitious part of my brain that goes, "And the minute you say that on the record, you're going to get that diagnosis." Like, it's so

Anna Martin: Thank you. Knock on wood. I'm knocking.

Taylor Tomlinson: Uh I I do see a future now. And I think what I hope to see in the future is yes, I would like to find a partner and maybe have a family, TBD, but as far as my personal and professional life goes right now, I mean, I just want to stay busy and productive and grateful and make art that I feel good about and keep connecting with people because that's my only reason for doing anything. It's the reason I write every joke. It's the reason I wrote this book. It's the reason I put out specials. I just want to say things and have other people go, "Oh, I've gone through that or I felt that way." I just know that anytime I am going through something horrible, especially something like grief, which just never ends. It just lives with you forever. The moments that I have been at my lowest and I have managed to make a joke or laugh at someone else's joke, it feels like it feels like a gulp of air while you're drowning. I mean, it feels like you manage to like pop above the surface just long enough to be like, [gasps] okay, before you get maybe pulled under again. But it it just I think laughing feels like hope, which is maybe so cheesy to say, but it is kind of how I feel.

Anna Martin: Taylor Tomlinson, thank you so much for talking to me today.

Taylor Tomlinson: Thank you so much for having me. I love this [music] podcast. This was awesome.

Anna Martin: [music] The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alisa Gutierrez, [music] Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reva [music] Goldberg. It was edited by Davis Land and Lin Levy. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Our production team also included Pat Gunther, [music] Luke Mander, Feliz Leon, and Chris Our show was recorded by Mattie Mossiello, Nick Pitman, [music] Kyle Grandillo, and Samantha Winter. Special thanks to Brooke Mentors, and [music] to the whole team at Levity Live in LA. Original music in this episode by Alicia Beup, [music] Cory Shrepple, Marian Lozano, Diane Wong, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme [music] music. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. [music] If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. [music] Thanks for listening.