Nicolai Tangen: Hi everybody. I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund. And today I'm really thrilled. I'm here with uh Evan Spiegel, the co-founder and CEO of Snap, the company behind the very popular Snapchat. Now it's used by nearly a billion people every day. Uh he was 22 years old, turned down a $3 billion offer from Mark Zuckerberg, and has continued to build a company, which by the way, in Norway of all places was one of your first really, really big markets. So fantastic to have you here.

Evan Spiegel: Thanks so much, Nicolai. It's great to be on the on the show and yeah, we now reach more than 3 million Norwegians. So very proud to uh serve the Norwegian people.

Nicolai Tangen: Now, it started as an idea that uh most people were almost like totally ridiculous, a photo that disappears just after you look at it. So where the heck did that idea come from?

Evan Spiegel: Well, Bobby and I had grown up with social media. And on social media, everything was saved forever. It was public. It was like a big competition to see how many friends you had or likes you could get on your photos. And so it meant that people were only posting pretty and perfect moments, not you know the full set of uh full set of emotions or full set of experiences they have that you know are really important to to relationships. So uh I think the most important thing Snapchat did was created a new way of communicating with visual messaging. That was really the foundation of the service. Now today it's diversified across a map that lets you see what your friends are up to or augmented reality lenses. of course content with stories and spotlight, but the core of the service is really visual messaging between friends and family.

Nicolai Tangen: So, so where do you go? You're like 22 years old, no money, no app, no nothing. I mean, how do you how do you start?

Evan Spiegel: Well, I was in school at the time and Bobby and I actually lived across the hall from each other and so we started working on some projects together. One of which was called Future Freshman, which was a service designed to help people get into college. That was a total uh failure. only my mom signed up for our service despite both of our siblings applying for college at the time. So, we got some strong customer feedback in the early days. We ended up uh shutting down future freshmen, trying a few other things, and ultimately uh creating Peekaboo uh you know, as Snapchat was called at the time, which I presented to uh my class in in uh junior year.

Nicolai Tangen: When did you understand that that you were on to something big?

Evan Spiegel: Oh gosh. I mean, it probably wasn't until about a year after we launched the service, uh, when there were enough folks using it and continuing to use it, um, you know, in a way that we thought maybe we could build a business. But I think the most important thing for us is that we loved using it together with our friends. And so that really gave us the conviction to stick with it, continue evolving Snapchat, uh, because we were having so much fun using Snapchat to message with our friends.

Nicolai Tangen: Now, in the beginning, people kind of thought it was a bit secretive, right? um stuff is disappearing. There is no record of anything. So, how did you think about the kind of reputation side of it?

Evan Spiegel: You're right. Back then, people didn't really think about or prioritize privacy the way they do now. I mean, if you remember at the time, everyone was talking about the world being open and connected and everyone was going to share everything permanently. And I think I don't think people had yet realized the downside uh you know, of saving everything forever or allowing companies to access and store such large amounts of data. And so it was unusual for Snapchat uh I guess now 15 years ago to say privacy is really important to us. Uh and you know we think that privacy is actually the foundation of self-expression right unless you feel like you can express yourself uh with your your friends and family without fear of that being recorded and p you know broadcast publicly it's very hard uh to feel comfortable uh expressing yourself. So I think uh we were we were early to explain the connection between privacy and self-exression which I think now uh is obviously very well understood and and widely accepted.

Nicolai Tangen: You had a a a pretty healthy uh offer to sell the company early on. Now in Europe we typically take the money and run. You know you thought differently. How come?

Evan Spiegel: Well we really loved what we were doing. We saw a huge long-term opportunity. I mean now the service reaches nearly a billion people around the world. Back then it was still very small and so we believed that you know we had a vision that was unique and different than traditional social media that was much more focused on close friends and family on messaging and self-exression and so we decided to pursue our own uh vision and you know I think the thing that that you know really uh really helped us make the decision was just how much we love what we do.

Nicolai Tangen: Now, you've been um at the forefront of of a lot of innovations, right? Disappearing messages, stories, augmented reality filters, and so on. How do you how do you build a company that comes up with these kind of ideas?

Evan Spiegel: Well, I think what's so important is to continue to create a culture where great ideas can come from anywhere, where people put good ideas in, you know, before hierarchy. One of the challenges with companies as they grow is they become much larger organizations. people become more fixated on promotions or making more money rather than taking risks. And so one of the things that we've done is kept a very very small design team. It's about nine people. It's a totally flat structure. So there's no fancy titles or anything like that. And the entire idea is to iterate really quickly, to try new things. You know, we look at hundreds of ideas on a weekly basis. Um and every now and then we we have a good idea. But I think, you know, the most important thing is to create a a culture that rewards creativity and risk-taking rather than, you know, a culture that rewards uh promotion, for example.

Nicolai Tangen: What's the craziest idea you looked at lately?

Evan Spiegel: Oh my goodness. The craziest idea I've looked at lately, uh we had all sorts of wild ideas for April Fool's jokes on on Snapchat. Most of most of which actually all of which I think uh we discarded except for we we briefly renamed Spotlight Reels R E A Ls uh because we're so focused on the authenticity of of videos made on Snapchat.

Nicolai Tangen: So when you sit around the table, how does it work? Do you have a screen? You put things on a screen? You have a whiteboard? Just what do you do?

Evan Spiegel: Yeah, we've got a screen. Sometimes we draw stuff. Sometimes we use a whiteboard. Most of the time, you know, we're just debating stuff and laughing. I mean, I think one of the things that's so important is creating a culture where everyone can speak up and share their point of view. Uh, and part of the things that, you know, part of what makes that, you know, enjoyable is is to make sure that it's fun, right? I think fundamentally, unless you can have fun with design, it's very hard to be creative. Uh, so I think the levity of those design meetings is something that I always really enjoy and something that brings out the best in people and creates a space where everyone can share their perspective.

Nicolai Tangen: How did you guys come up with stories?

Evan Spiegel: Well, that was actually uh a you know an outgrowth of people asking for a send to all button. And so in the early days of Snapchat, people said, "Oh gosh, it's such a pain to go select each one of my friends when I want to send them a snap. I'd rather just have a send to all button so I can blast snaps to everyone who's my friend on Snapchat." And we were really concerned that that would end up with people spamming each other all day long uh rather than intentionally communicating. But we did understand that people wanted to share Snaps with all of their friends. So, we asked them a lot about how they were using social media at the time. And they complained that the feed was in reverse chronological order. They complained about likes and and comments and feeling the pressure when they were posting. Uh, and they, you know, of course were frustrated that their feed ultimately or their profile when they went back and looked at it felt like it didn't reflect who they were currently because it had all these old images and and photos of them. And so for us, we took a lot of those learnings and what we heard and and and we created a product that disappears after 24 hours. You can start fresh the next day that doesn't have public likes and comments that's in chronological order so people can follow you through your day instead of, you know, experiencing your day in reverse. And uh and we release stories and the early uptake was minimal. I mean, people uh were just discovering the feature and and there wasn't a lot of growth early on, but as people figured it out and and started using stories to to share with their friends, it became a very large uh a large success for us.

Nicolai Tangen: Now, um people just copy what you do, right? So, Instagram copied stories, Tik Tok took the short-term kind of short form video, WhatsApp disappearing messages. Um, I mean, is it depressing that people take your ideas or do you think it's kind of flattering or how do you look at it?

Evan Spiegel: Well, it's it's a heck of a lot better than uh coming up with ideas that nobody wants to take, right? So I think uh certainly prefer it to the alternative but it it means we have to to be really thoughtful about how we build our business for the long term how we continue uh to to build a mode and make Snapchat very resilient right and and it's what's helped us think a lot about our future-looking investments like in augmented reality where we have you know I think the largest augmented reality platform uh today advanced developer tools and really this ecosystem we've developed because we found that you know as you as you build an ecosystem that's much harder to copy than an app feature for example.

Nicolai Tangen: Now, um, the biggest bet now for you seems to be the augmented reality glasses. And I believe you're on, uh, you are on generation 5. Do you think the world is ready for this now?

Evan Spiegel: I think the world is so ready. I think that technology has been trying to catch up to where the world is. I I think folks are exhausted by what their computers and their phones demand of them. I mean, people are spending seven or eight hours a day hunched over a screen. they feel like it distracts them from the real world, takes them away from their friends and family, but yet this technology is so useful and so powerful, right? Uh that we don't want to just put our laptops away. We need to fundamentally change what a computer is. And that's really what specs do. They take computing and they actually integrated in the world around you. They make it something you can share together with your friends. So you and your friends can can participate in the same in the same computing experience in the same place at the same time. That's really really uh powerful and and it represents a whole new direction for computing that I think the world has wanted for a long time but the technology hasn't been ready.

Nicolai Tangen: Some pretty big players have tried already and they failed. So why should you why should you succeed here?

Evan Spiegel: Well, I I do think we have unique customer insight that we've been able to translate into very innovative uh products in the past. And I I think staying close to our customers, what they really want and building products that really delight them is is core to to who we are. uh and I think that's been combined with the ability to really invest consistently over the long term. I think a lot of companies that have tried and experimented in this place, you know, in this space have, you know, turned uh turned their initiatives on and off uh abruptly, which is really damaging for long-term research and development. Uh they've sort of chased different market opportunities, you know, pivoting back and forth between consumer and enterprise. Uh, and so these pivots and these sort of starts and stops are really, really harmful to long-term research and development. And I think that's where we're very different because now I think for what more than 12 years, we've invested very consistently and very deliberately against this vision. starting with, you know, just normal camera glasses, adding a second camera, adding a display, building out our own uh proprietary operating system and the developer ecosystem, and now launching uh a bit later this year full-fledged consumer grade specs that fit all of that capability into a normal pair of glasses. So, I I think it's really that focus and long-term consistency that's that's going to differentiate us in this space.

Nicolai Tangen: How far into the future do you think you can see? So uh I mean what I mean is that I I have a question where do you see snap in 10 years time and then I thought you know 10 years time I mean my that's like that's like a hundred years for this guy. So but I mean do you can you see like well two to three or just what are you what is your time frame when you when you plan and when you look at your visions?

Nicolai Tangen: Moving on to culture, what are the non-negotiable part of your corpora culture?

Evan Spiegel: We've got three values, very simple, kind, smart, and creative. All non-negotiable. Uh, and the most important thing I think actually is the relationship between kindness and creativity. And what we really learned over the years is that unless you have a culture where people feel supported, feel like they can bring their full selves to work and experiment with crazy ideas, it's very, very hard to develop a a consistently creative culture. So the relationship between kindness and creativity is is very important to us.

Nicolai Tangen: Uh hierarchy.

Evan Spiegel: Um well I think you know hierarchy is a function of a larger organization. And one of the things that's exciting I think about the way that AI is changing the workplace is that I would expect there to be less and less hierarchy, much larger spans of control. Most of the you know management process I think will be largely automated by AI and it will free up leaders to spend more time leading. But hierarchy does end up being a function of of larger companies. I think the question is you know how fast does bad news travel within that hierarchy? Are people lifted up for highlighting things that aren't working that are broken so that you know the organization can fix it quickly or are people more focused on you know managing up and more more self-interested in their own promotion um and appearing you know like they're making progress rather than delivering real results for the business and I think Snap's culture especially at at our sort of startup scale uh you know is is very high impact culture and very much focused on you know finding the best ideas wherever they may be rather than trying to enforce uh some you know hierarchy.

Nicolai Tangen: Why will AI reduce hierarchy in an organization?

Evan Spiegel: I think ultimately AI creates a huge amount of leverage for managers to take on a lot of the managerial work that they used to have to do in the past. So for example in the past as a manager you had to spend a lot of time staying very close to what your team members were doing provide you know working to provide very actionable feedback gathering all of that feedback from their peers. today, you know, I can use our systems at Snap to see everything they're actually doing without them having to, you know, report anything. I can just understand based on the work product they've actually contributed, whether or not they're meeting their goals. I can easily gather uh peer feedback, right, from their interactions with their peers and and feedback uh from their peers and ultimately turn that into very very actionable feedback without having to do much managerial work uh to get that outcome. So I think if you look at a lot of the you know things like career planning, career conversations, feedback, a lot of the the day-to-day work uh required of management, most of that I think is going to be automated in the not too distant future and that's going to free up managers to lead.

Nicolai Tangen: What do you think is going to happen to the number of reports that a manager have?

Evan Spiegel: Uh I think it could very meaningfully increase. Uh um and I think you know that's certainly a a benefit that um you know rather than maybe a more traditional 7 to 10 directs or something like that you could even see that number double uh you know over time as more of that managerial work is automated.

Nicolai Tangen: You also uh say that uh the firm that as a firm you need to work faster and and leaner. What are the type of things that you have changed to achieve that?

Evan Spiegel: Well I think the thing making the most profound impact is AI. Uh, you know, we're a software company and so the entire way that software is written now has changed profoundly. It's mostly written by agents. I would be stunned if humans are writing any code at all by next year. Um, you know, whether it's bug fixes or testing, I mean, all of these processes now that required a huge amount of human engineering work are are being automated very quickly. And so for a company like ours that's predominantly in the business of software, uh, that's hugely impactful. It'll let us move way faster to serve our customers. It'll help us resolve issues much more quickly. And that's a really inspiring change that's happening right now in software.

Nicolai Tangen: What what are the most interesting ways you're using AI now which you didn't let's say three four months ago?

Evan Spiegel: Um well I think the most profound shift is really in in software development. I think that's where the capability has increased so dramatically even you know as I reflect on on the end of last year to today you know the notion of you know of really evolving right from AI being a tool that engineers use to now uh you know really agentic development and developers overseeing agents who are completing this work that that change has happened in basically six months um and and that's a a really a really big deal for us and you know it also means that as a smaller company sometimes we haven't had the capacity or the resources to invest invest in new tooling. So, for example, we have all these amazing creators on Snapchat. They're constantly creating, you know, content about brands or, you know, uh new new snaps uh that companies might want to le, you know, use to promote their uh promote their services. But historically, we didn't have a tool that made it easy to find those creators and collaborate with those creators. And we were having a hard time resourcing and funding that work. And now, you know, in just a matter of weeks, we've created an awesome tool. It's already out in the market. We're getting great feedback uh from our partners and advertisers. And so for a company like us that's resource constrained, AI is letting us accelerate uh in such meaningful ways that just weren't possible before.

Nicolai Tangen: Even um just some um uh personal things at the end there. What do you what do you do when you don't work?

Evan Spiegel: Well, we've got four boys uh at home, 15, an 8-year-old, a six-year-old, and a 2-year-old. So, that uh consumes virtually all my free time. We were just at Legoland for our 8-year-old's birthday. That was pretty fun. Uh, but yeah, that's I I that's that's what I enjoy doing.

Nicolai Tangen: What What is your screen time policy for your boys?

Evan Spiegel: It really depends on their ages. So, the 15-year-old uh you know, he I don't think he's allowed to use it after what uh I think the latest rule is 10 p.m. So, we like him to put his uh his you know, his devices away at at 10 p.m., but otherwise, it's so important for him to stay in touch with friends and get work done and all that kind of thing. Uh now that he's in high school, for the little ones, we we really minimize screen time. Obviously, they can watch a movie every now and then. Uh, and then for the 2-year-old, it's it's virtually never. Uh, you know, except for when he's getting his haircut because he has a hard time sitting still. Uh, for that.

Nicolai Tangen: Sounds good. Uh, we got lots of, uh, young listeners, as you can imagine, and in particular for this episode. What is your advice to young people?

Evan Spiegel: You know, I I think what's so important, especially when you're younger, is to to take risk by trying lots of new things. You know, I think there's sort of this narrative that, you know, fi find your passion, right? Or whatever you're passionate about, chase after it. It's hard to know what that is unless you try a bunch of different things. And so, I would really encourage uh folks to to try different things, to see what really resonates, if they're not enjoying something, to stop doing it and and find something else. Uh because there's there's never sort of a a lower risk time to experiment with finding your interest than when you're young. Um and when the switching costs are very low. So that would that would really be my uh my advice to young people.

Nicolai Tangen: Fantastic. Very good. It's been great uh talking to you. All the best of luck and uh you know keep up the good work.

Evan Spiegel: Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Thank you.