彭博科技特辑：荧幕时间大会现场报道

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news. Bloomberg Tech is live from coast to coast with Caroline Hyde in New York and Ed Lllo in San Francisco. Welcome to a special edition of Bloomberg Tech live from Bloomberg Screen Time in Los Angeles. 彭博音频工作室，播客、广播、新闻。彭博科技正在进行全美直播，卡罗琳·海德在纽约，埃德·里洛在旧金山。欢迎收看彭博科技特辑，在洛杉矶的彭博荧幕时间大会（Bloomberg Screen Time：彭博社举办的媒体与娱乐行业大会）现场为您直播。

Coming up this hour, we're going to bring you conversations with some of the biggest names in the entertainment industry. We'll be speaking with top celebrities, Ed, with entrepreneurs with leaders across this very much changing media landscape. 本小时，我们将为您带来与娱乐行业一些大人物的对话。我们将与顶级名人、埃德，以及在这个瞬息万变的媒体格局中的企业家和领导者进行交流。

吉米·坎摩尔谈保守派人士查理·柯克争议事件

And we first go to the talk of the town here at Screen Time. Of course, it was Jimmy Kimmel. The late night show host sat down with Bloomberg's Luca Shaw and explained how he thinks his comments about the conservative activist Charlie Kirk were mischaracterized by the political right. Take a listen.

在荧幕时间大会上，我们首先关注城中热议话题，那当然是吉米·坎摩尔。这位深夜秀主持人与彭博社的卢卡·肖坐下来，解释了他认为自己对保守派活动家查理·柯克的评论是如何被政治右翼错误描述的。请听。

Jimmy Kimmel: I didn't think there was a big problem. I just saw it as distortion on the part of some of the right-wing media networks and I was aimed to correct it. 吉米·坎摩尔：我当时不觉得这是个大问题。我只是把它看作是某些右翼媒体网络的歪曲，我的目的是纠正它。

Jimmy Kimmel: I have problems all the time and it's kind of funny because sometimes you think, "Oh, this is not a problem," and then it turns into a big problem, and then sometimes it goes the other way where you think, "Uh oh, this is going to be a problem," and nobody really notices. 吉米·坎摩尔：我总是遇到问题，这有点好笑，因为有时候你会觉得“哦，这没什么大不了的”，然后它就变成了大问题；而有时候情况正好相反，你觉得“糟了，这会是个麻烦”，结果却没人真正注意到。

Interviewer: So, at what point did you realize this was a problem? 采访者：那么，你是在什么时候意识到这是个问题的？

Jimmy Kimmel: I think when they pulled the show off the air. Like, well, that's unusual. 吉米·坎摩尔：我想是他们把节目停播的时候。嗯，那很不寻常。

Interviewer: Yeah. And what were the conversations with Dana and Bob that led to that? 采访者：是啊。那么，你和达娜以及鲍勃的谈话是怎样的，导致了停播？

Jimmy Kimmel: I hate to disappoint you, but they were really good conversations. They are, I mean, these are people that I've known for a long time and who I like very much and who, you know, who wanted—we all wanted this to work out best. And I will tell you, I mean, first of all, I ruined Dana's weekend. It was just non-stop phone calls all weekend. But I don't think what I don't think the result, which I think turned out to be very positive, would have been as positive if I hadn't talked to Dana as much as I did, because it helped me think everything through and it helped me just kind of understand where everyone was coming from. I can sometimes be reactionary. I can sometimes be aggressive, and I can sometimes be unpleasant. And I think that it, it helped me just really having those days to think about it was helpful. 吉米·坎摩尔：我不想让你失望，但那些对话真的很好。他们是，我的意思是，这些是我认识很久的人，我非常喜欢他们，而且他们，你知道，我们都希望事情能得到最好的解决。我告诉你，首先，我毁了达娜的周末。整个周末电话不停。但我认为，如果不像我那样和达娜进行那么多交谈，结果——我认为结果是非常积极的——就不会那么积极了，因为它帮助我把所有事情都想清楚了，也帮助我理解了每个人的立场。我有时会反应过激，有时会咄咄逼人，有时会让人不快。我认为那些思考的时间真的很有帮助。

Interviewer: Okay, I have a dumb question about this as someone who was kind of reporting on it in real time, trying to figure out what's happening. So the show goes off the air, you have all these conversations, and when you made or when you all made a decision to put the show back on the air as my understanding at the time was, it still wasn't exactly clear what you were going to say. They still hadn't resolved the issues with the affiliates. So what are the, what do you resolve in those conversations to know you're going back if you haven't figured out a lot of the things that come out of it? 采访者：好的，我有一个关于这件事的笨问题，因为我当时实时报道这件事，试图弄清发生了什么。所以节目停播了，你们进行了所有这些对话，而当你们做出决定让节目复播时，据我当时的理解，你到底要说什么仍然不完全清楚。他们也还没解决与联播台（affiliates: 指与主电视台签订协议，播放其节目的地方电视台）的问题。那么，在那些对话中，你们解决了哪些问题，才能确定复播，即使很多后续的事情还没有搞清楚？

Jimmy Kimmel: I think just the spirit of what I'm going to say rather than specifically what I was going to say. And I think that's something that we all agreed on. And I think that ultimately I wanted to kind of cover every base if I could. And sometimes you can do that, and sometimes you can't do that. And it was something really that had to come from inside me. It had to be truthful, and I had to lay it all out there and just be honest about what I was feeling and what I'd experienced. And I think I did. And I think that it probably went about as well as it could go. I knew that it wasn't going to be perfect and there were always going to be people that didn't like it and didn't accept it. But the important thing to me was that I was able to explain what I was saying, what I was trying to say, because you felt like your initial comments had been mischaracterized. I didn't feel like it was, it was intentionally and I think maliciously mischaracterized. Yes. 吉米·坎摩尔：我想只是我将要说什么的精神，而不是具体的措辞。我认为这是我们都同意的。而且我认为，最终我希望尽可能地涵盖所有方面。有时候你能做到，有时候你不能。这确实是必须发自内心的事情。它必须是真实的，我必须把所有事情都说出来，诚实地表达我的感受和我所经历的。我认为我做到了。而且我认为事情进展得可能算是顺利。我知道它不会是完美的，总会有人不喜欢和不接受。但对我来说，重要的是我能够解释我当时说了什么，我想要表达什么，因为你觉得你最初的评论被错误描述了。我不是觉得它被错误描述了，而是我觉得它被蓄意且恶意地错误描述了。是的。

晚间电视节目的挑战与迪士尼的角色

Lucas Shaw: There was Jimmy Kimmel there with Bloomberg Screen Time host Lucas Shaw who joins us now this morning. The story around Jimmy Kimmel is one of the most read on the Bloomberg Terminal (Bloomberg L.P.提供的计算机软件系统，提供实时金融市场数据、交易执行及分析工具) and the website and it's being shared across the industry. I think that's not that surprising, right, Lucas? The headline is really straightforward. He thought that the show was done and in the course of what we just heard, he explained everything that happened in the days that followed being taken off air, confirming quite a lot of your reporting. I just invite you to take it from there and the main takeaways from you from the conversation. 卢卡斯·肖：刚才接受采访的是吉米·坎摩尔，与他对话的是彭博荧幕时间大会的主持人卢卡斯·肖，他今天早上也和我们在一起。关于吉米·坎摩尔的故事是彭博终端机和网站上阅读量最大的新闻之一，并在整个行业中被分享。我认为这并不令人惊讶，对吧，卢卡斯？这个头条新闻非常直白。他认为节目已经结束了，而在我们刚刚听到的谈话中，他解释了停播后几天发生的一切，证实了你很多报道的内容。我现在请你接着谈谈，以及你从这次对话中获得的主要启示。

Lucas Shaw: Well, I guess I was a little surprised in retrospect, not shocked, by how effusive his praise was for Disney, just because in the moment my sense from people around him was that he was pretty pissed off at them. Right? They had taken him off the air. You heard him say, "I didn't think I did anything that wrong." My comments got sort of weaponized by right-wing media. And yet he had nothing but positive things to say about CEO Bob Iger, about entertainment co-chair Dana Walden. He sort of somewhat endorsed Dana Walden to succeed Bob Iger, which, you know, I don't know that he or Dana were expecting to happen last night. But he, this, this turned from what could have been a really sad, ugly episode in his career to something that has made him something of a hero. And so, I, you know, this was, I guess, a little bit of a victory lap for him. 卢卡斯·肖：嗯，回想起来，我有点惊讶，但并不震惊，他当时对迪士尼的赞扬是如此的溢于言表，只是因为在当时，我从他身边的人那里感觉他非常生他们的气。对吧？他们把他停播了。你听到他说，“我不觉得我做了什么错事。”我的评论被右翼媒体武器化了。然而，他对首席执行官鲍勃·艾格、对娱乐联席主席达娜·沃尔登却只有赞美之词。他某种程度上还支持达娜·沃尔登接替鲍勃·艾格，你知道，我不知道他或达娜昨晚是否预料到会发生。但这件事情，从他职业生涯中可能非常悲伤、丑陋的一章，变成了一件让他成为某种英雄的事情。所以，我认为，这对他来说，有点像是一场胜利巡礼。

Interviewer: A victory lap which then you get to the nitty-gritty of numbers, because that's what Bloomberg does. And you're trying to present to him that ultimately, yes, he had record bump in terms of numbers, but the numbers haven't been great for late night television, full stop. How did he navigate what he thinks is the revenue, positive or negatives right now for him? 采访者：这是一场胜利巡礼，然后你谈到了数字的细节，因为这就是彭博社的风格。你试图向他表明，尽管他的收视率确实创下了新高，但深夜电视节目的整体收视率并不理想，句号。他是如何看待自己目前收入的正面或负面影响的？

Lucas Shaw: Well, twofold. One, he was like, look, there was a lot of reporting about how much his peer Steven Colbert's show was losing. He thinks that that's wrong. He knows how much money these shows cost to make. He knows generally how much they bring in. I think he said last night it costs about $120 million to do one of these shows. But he also said, "Look, if they were, if they were losing money, they'd go off the air. Steven Colbert's show is going off the air. We don't know the future of Kimmel's show. His contract is up next year." I think most people assume that he'll be around for a little bit longer. They don't want to, at a minimum, they're not going to fire him in the same way that CBS did Colbert. But obviously the big challenge for late night is that there's just so much more consumption happening online and you can't monetize it in the same way. 卢卡斯·肖：嗯，原因有两方面。第一，他说：“看，有很多报道说他的同行史蒂芬·科尔伯特的节目损失了多少钱。”他认为这是错的。他知道制作这些节目要花多少钱。他大致知道它们能带来多少收入。我认为他昨晚说，制作一个这样的节目大约需要1.2亿美元。但他也说：“看，如果它们亏钱，它们就会停播。史蒂芬·科尔伯特的节目正在停播。我们不知道坎摩尔节目的未来。他的合同明年到期。”我想大多数人认为他会再待一段时间。他们至少不想，也不会像哥伦比亚广播公司（CBS）解雇科尔伯特那样解雇他。但显然，深夜节目的巨大挑战在于，现在网上有更多的内容消费，而且你无法以同样的方式将其货币化。

Interviewer: I found that so interesting, like his insight into how the industry works, budgets, talent costs, losses or not losses. Lucas, that's kind of the point of the rest of the day. We have many very high-profile speakers across entertainment and media generally, but just for you, what is your next big focus after last night? 采访者：我觉得这太有趣了，他对于行业运作方式、预算、人才成本、盈亏的洞察。卢卡斯，这也就是今天剩下时间的主要议题。我们有很多非常知名的娱乐和媒体界演讲者，但对你来说，昨晚之后你接下来最大的关注点是什么？

Lucas Shaw: My first interview is David Ellison, who I think is, other than Kimmel, probably the biggest interview of the conference, just because he hasn't done a big interview since taking over Paramount SkyDance. He seems to be in the news every other day. He bought Barry Weiss's The Free Press. He may or may not be trying to buy Warner Brothers Discovery. We'll talk about both those things with him. 卢卡斯·肖：我的第一个采访对象是大卫·埃里森，我认为除了坎摩尔之外，他可能是本次大会最重要的受访者，就因为他自从接管派拉蒙影业（Paramount SkyDance）以来就没做过大型采访。他似乎每隔一天就上新闻。他收购了巴里·韦斯（Barry Weiss）的《自由新闻报》（The Free Press）。他可能正在或可能没有尝试收购华纳兄弟探索公司（Warner Brothers Discovery）。我们将和他谈论这两件事。

Interviewer: And you've got Warner Brothers Discovery at the table as well. Well, that's going to be fascinating considering the conversation you have with Greg Peters, the co of Netflix, about how ultimately he's not after M&A (Mergers and Acquisitions: 公司兼并与收购) WBD. That's going to be a fascinating conversation. 采访者：你还请到了华纳兄弟探索公司的代表。考虑到你将与奈飞（Netflix）的联席首席执行官格雷格·彼得斯（Greg Peters）进行的对话，探讨他最终为何不追求兼并与收购华纳兄弟探索公司，这肯定会是一场引人入胜的对话。

Lucas Shaw: Yeah, the co-chairs of their movie studio. I'm sure that they will avoid talking about any big corporate matters and kind of defer that to their leadership. But look, they will be great to talk about the movie business with. They have been on a real hot streak with "Sinners," with "Minecraft," many other hits over the summer, "Weapons," and then the new PTA movie, which probably isn't a commercial hit, but looks like an Oscar front runner. 卢卡斯·肖：是的，他们电影工作室的联席主席。我相信他们会避免谈论任何重大的公司事务，并将这些问题留给他们的领导层。但是，你看，和他们谈论电影业务会很棒。他们最近凭借《罪人》（Sinners）、《我的世界》（Minecraft）以及夏季的许多其他热门影片，比如《武器》（Weapons），还有新的PTA（保罗·托马斯·安德森）电影，取得了巨大的成功。那部电影可能不是商业上的热门，但看起来是奥斯卡奖的有力竞争者。

Interviewer: All right, Bloomberg's Lucas Shaw, who's leading our coverage here at Bloomberg Screen Time in Los Angeles. Thank you very much. But actually here on Bloomberg Tech, Carol, so much more coming up. We're going to be speaking with Katherine Mayer, NPR CEO. Look, public media faces threats, particularly under the Trump administration right now. What is the future of funding? Stick with us. This is bringing back tack. 采访者：好的，彭博社的卢卡斯·肖，他正在洛杉矶的彭博荧幕时间大会上领导我们的报道。非常感谢。但实际上在彭博科技这边，卡罗琳，接下来还有更多内容。我们将与美国国家公共广播电电台（NPR: National Public Radio，美国一家非营利性质的公共和私人资助的媒体组织）首席执行官凯瑟琳·梅耶（Katherine Mayer）进行对话。你看，公共媒体面临威胁，尤其是在当前的特朗普政府之下。资金的未来会是怎样？请继续关注我们。这是带回的观点。

公共媒体面临的挑战与NPR的未来

Los Angeles mayor there, Karen Bass, reacting to Jimmy Kimmel's return, of course, to the air after a brief suspension of what he described as a mischaracterization of his comments about Charlie Kirk. Meanwhile, look, Ed, public broadcasting as a whole is facing new challenges. Outlets PBS, NPR, for example, seeing their share in federal funding cut by Congress over the summer. It raises questions about the future, the viability. At the center of the debate is NPR CEO Katherine May, who we're pleased to say not only has just been, is joining us, having already been called before the oversight committee earlier this year. Katherine, how do you navigate this time? How are you seeing the ability for NPR to thrive and drive forward? 刚才洛杉矶市长凯伦·巴斯（Karen Bass）对吉米·坎摩尔复播一事做出回应，他此前因其对查理·柯克的评论被“错误描述”而短暂停播。与此同时，埃德，公共广播整体正面临新的挑战。例如，公共广播电视公司（PBS: Public Broadcasting Service，美国公共电视广播机构）和国家公共广播电台（NPR）等机构的联邦拨款份额在夏天被国会削减。这引发了关于其未来和生存能力的问题。辩论的中心是NPR首席执行官凯瑟琳·梅耶，我们很高兴她不仅已经加入我们，而且今年早些时候她已经被传唤到监督委员会。凯瑟琳，你如何应对这个时期？你如何看待NPR蓬勃发展和向前推进的能力？

Katherine Mayer: Well, there's certainly no road map for this moment in time. I think this represents a step change for all public broadcasting. It's not just here in the United States. We recognize that public broadcasters around the world are under increasing scrutiny and pressure. The good news for us is that we have a viable model because we've built audiences over the 50 years we've been in existence. We have 46 million listeners a week. And so, as we look to the future, we're looking at, all right, this is a change. It doesn't change our public service mandate. It doesn't change our mission and our obligation to the American public. It just probably will change how we have to do our work. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：嗯，对于这个时刻，当然没有现成的路线图。我认为这代表了所有公共广播的一个阶梯式变化（step change: 显著而突然的转变）。这不仅仅发生在美国。我们认识到世界各地的公共广播机构都面临着日益增长的审查和压力。对我们来说的好消息是，我们有一个可行的模式，因为我们在存在的50年里建立了受众。我们每周有4600万听众。因此，当我们展望未来时，我们看到，好吧，这是一个变化。它没有改变我们的公共服务使命。它没有改变我们对美国公众的使命和义务。它只是可能会改变我们工作的方式。

Interviewer: When you say how you do your work, does it ultimately mean that you have to think about the resources that you put to work there? Can you be as expansive in the coverage that you have been for so many years? 采访者：当你说你工作的方式时，它最终是否意味着你必须考虑你在那里投入的资源？你还能像过去多年那样广泛地进行报道吗？

Katherine Mayer: It's a good question and it's something we're trying to figure out. NPR received traditionally about 1% of our budget directly from the federal government, but we have just 1%. But we have a network of around 250 member stations which received as much as 70% in rural parts of the country. And so we're waiting to see what some of the fallout will be for those stations. We have projections. We're concerned about this and we're looking at how we can buttress some of their work by cutting fees to them and thinking about how to make a dollar stretch a little bit further to continue to serve local communities. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：这是一个好问题，也是我们正在努力解决的问题。NPR传统上直接从联邦政府获得约1%的预算，我们只有这1%。但我们有一个由大约250个成员台组成的网络，其中一些位于农村地区的电台获得的联邦拨款高达70%。所以我们正在等待观察这些电台会受到怎样的影响。我们有预测。我们对此感到担忧，并且正在研究如何通过削减对它们的收费来支持它们的工作，并思考如何让每一美元发挥更大的作用，以继续服务当地社区。

Interviewer: Catherine, I think there would be a lot of value in you explaining the business model. It is confusing. Yes. Well, the reason I ask actually is in in preparation for today, I suddenly stopped and looked at NPR's following on social platforms, for example. It's very, very big. You know, how do I consume some NPR content like on YouTube for example, but that isn't necessarily a big, big income generator for you? Is that, is that right? 采访者：凯瑟琳，我认为你解释一下这个商业模式会很有价值。它确实很令人困惑。是的。我之所以问这个，是因为在为今天做准备时，我突然停下来看了看NPR在社交平台上的关注度，比如。它非常非常庞大。你知道，我如何在YouTube上消费一些NPR内容，但这不一定是你的一个巨大的收入来源？是这样吗？

Katherine Mayer: Right. So, I think people think of us as radio because that's our origin. But in fact, 50% of our listening comes from digital platforms. It comes through podcasts. It comes through YouTube. It actually comes through reading online, and you can see in our numbers that our demographics are actually very well distributed. We've been accused of being too liberal. But what I can tell you is that when we look at the audience data as to who comes to us, it's actually a very representative distribution of the American public. So 50% of what we're doing is for digital audiences and 50% of what we're doing is for radio audiences. On the radio side, we have these roughly 250 members across the country. They serve 99.7% of the American public. So, in some ways, we are one of the largest national networks, and we have 3,000 local journalists around the country who then serve back into the network with stories that they're filing for their local communities and for their states. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：没错。所以，我认为人们认为我们是广播，因为那是我们的起源。但事实上，我们50%的听众来自数字平台。它通过播客、YouTube而来。它实际上也通过在线阅读而来，你可以从我们的数据中看到，我们的受众构成（demographics: 特定人口群体的统计特征，如年龄、性别、收入等）实际上分布得非常好。我们曾被指责过于自由主义。但我要告诉你的是，当我们查看谁来听我们节目的听众数据时，它实际上代表了美国公众的非常具有代表性的分布。所以我们50%的工作是为数字听众服务的，50%的工作是为广播听众服务的。在广播方面，我们在全国大约有250个成员台。它们服务于99.7%的美国公众。所以，在某些方面，我们是最大的全国性网络之一，我们在全国各地有3000名地方记者，他们通过为当地社区和州报道的故事，反过来为这个网络服务。

Interviewer: How does it make them feel when they're deemed to be too liberal? 采访者：当他们被认为是过于自由主义时，他们感觉如何？

Katherine Mayer: Not good. Really not good. I mean, we have reporters who are covering tribal areas, who are primarily focused on the issues of Native American communities. We have reporters in rural Alaska who are focusing on the issues that their communities face. Some of the issues around, for example, fishing and access to the National Wildlife Preserve, and what does that mean for economic opportunity for Alaskans. They're having nuanced conversations that represent the full spectrum of the American debate on any of these issues. And so to be called liberal or to be demeaned in that way is really a misrepresentation of the work that they do. Nuance is a great word. You need more of it. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：不好。真的不好。我的意思是，我们有记者在报道部落地区，他们主要关注美国原住民社区的问题。我们在阿拉斯加农村地区有记者，他们关注他们社区面临的问题。例如，关于捕鱼和进入国家野生动物保护区的一些问题，以及这对阿拉斯加人的经济机会意味着什么。他们正在进行细致入微的对话，这些对话代表了美国在任何这些问题上的全面辩论。所以被称作自由主义者或以这种方式被贬低，真的是对他们工作的误解。细致入微（Nuance）是一个很棒的词。你需要更多这样的词。

Katherine Mayer: Well, we try to make sure that we're hearing from all sides of the story in every story. And that means that we are representing, sure, of course, communities in California that perhaps have one point of view, but also communities in Indiana that have a different point of view. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：嗯，我们努力确保在每个故事中都能听到各方的声音。这意味着我们当然代表了加州可能有某种观点的社区，但也代表了印第安纳州有不同观点的社区。

Interviewer: Well, you know, we talked about this as a team and one of our producers, Zoe Thomas, brought up the idea that there is like the NPR strategy and then there's what the local stations are doing. On the politics side of things, you know, how are the local stations reacting? For example, if a lot of their listener base did vote for President Trump, you know, with what's going on, how are you factoring that in? But also, like, in the business model, do you end up sort of also competing at the NPR level with the local station level because you're trying to pursue different subscribers, things like that? 采访者：嗯，你知道，我们团队讨论过这个问题，我们的一位制作人佐伊·托马斯（Zoe Thomas）提出了一个想法，那就是有NPR的整体策略，然后还有地方电台正在做的事情。在政治方面，你知道，地方电台是如何反应的？例如，如果他们的听众基础中有很多人确实投票给了特朗普总统，你知道，考虑到目前的情况，你们是如何将这一点纳入考量的？另外，在商业模式中，你们最终是否在NPR层面也与地方电台层面产生竞争，因为你们试图争取不同的订阅用户，等等？

Katherine Mayer: Well, those are sort of two very different questions. I mean, we aim to serve the entire spectrum of American conversation, right? So, we had the White House press secretary on just last week speaking directly to the American public about the administration's thinking on the current government shutdown. We invite members of both parties on all the time. We invite independent voices on all the time. This is important to us, but it's not just our politics coverage. It's also coverage of American life, all of the cultural aspects that make up our differences as well. And that is one of the flexibilities of local reporting is it means that our station in Utah can run stories about the local reaction to the Charlie Kirk assassination as well as contributing to our national coverage so that Americans all across the country can hear from those perspectives. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：嗯，这算是两个非常不同的问题。我的意思是，我们的目标是服务于美国所有范围的对话，对吧？所以，就在上周，我们邀请了白宫新闻秘书，直接向美国公众讲述政府对当前政府停摆的看法。我们一直邀请两党成员参与。我们也一直邀请独立声音。这对我们很重要，但这不仅仅是我们的政治报道。它也涵盖了美国生活的所有文化方面，这些构成了我们的差异。而地方报道的灵活性之一就是，这意味着我们犹他州的电台可以报道当地对查理·柯克被暗杀的反应，同时也可以为我们的全国报道做出贡献，让全国各地的美国人都能听到这些观点。

Interviewer: What is the feedback from your American, from, from the American listeners about everything that's happened? 采访者：美国听众对所发生的一切有什么反馈？

Katherine Mayer: Well, I mean, on the news, of course, I think what you hear very consistently is that this is a concerning time. People dislike the amount of polarization. We do hear that our coverage and the way that we approach things tends to bring people closer to an understanding of their fellow Americans because we really do focus on finding the personal story. We like to say that everything that happens in America happens somewhere. And so we're always trying to find the somewhere that that that is happening, whether it's the implications of tariffs or, you know, the conversation that's happening around, for example, Jimmy Kimmel, who you were just recently referencing. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：嗯，我的意思是，当然在新闻方面，我认为你经常听到的是，这是一个令人担忧的时期。人们不喜欢两极分化的程度。我们确实听到，我们的报道和我们处理事情的方式倾向于让人们更接近于理解他们的美国同胞，因为我们确实专注于寻找个人故事。我们喜欢说，在美国发生的一切都发生在某个地方。所以我们总是试图找到那个发生事情的地方，无论是关税的影响，还是你刚刚提到的围绕吉米·坎摩尔的对话。

Interviewer: Listeners are so loyal. You turn to them for funding. Have you seen big billionaires, big donors wanting to step up to this moment? 采访者：听众非常忠诚。你们向他们寻求资金。你有没有看到大富豪、大捐助者想在这个时刻站出来？

Katherine Mayer: We have seen an outpouring of support, absolutely. So, New Hampshire Public Radio, for example, raised a million dollars in response to the defunding efforts in over the course of a short period of weeks. We're really appreciative of this, but that won't fill the gap for these rural communities that are already socioeconomically strapped. There's a reason they have been federally funded. We know that for, sorry, we know that 20% of Americans live without local news. There's a reason for that. The market conditions don't allow it, and that's where public media has filled in the gap. So that still remains a challenge. We have seen a lot of support, of course, across the board for public radio. I think there were 3 million people who wrote into Congress to support us at the time of defunding. But it won't be enough to fill the $120 million gap relative to the defunding effort. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：我们看到了大量的支持，绝对是。例如，新罕布什尔州公共广播电台在短短几周内，为应对撤资（defunding）努力筹集了一百万美元。我们非常感谢这一点，但这不足以弥补那些已经受到社会经济制约的农村社区的资金缺口。他们获得联邦资助是有原因的。我们知道，对不起，我们知道20%的美国人没有地方新闻。这是有原因的。市场条件不允许，而公共媒体正是填补了这一空白。所以这仍然是一个挑战。当然，我们看到了对公共广播的全面支持。我认为在撤资时，有300万人写信给国会支持我们。但这不足以弥补与撤资努力相关的1.2亿美元的资金缺口。

Interviewer: Your own background is so fascinating, having been for a stint with the Web Summit making huge big events and for a tech community. You're on, you're the chair of the Signal Foundation. You're also been at Wikipedia. I'm interested as to how in this moment of belt tightening, your technological savvy comes into all of it. 采访者：你的个人背景非常引人入胜，曾有一段时间在网络峰会（Web Summit: 每年在欧洲举办的大型科技会议）工作，为科技社区策划大型活动。你还是Signal基金会（Signal Foundation: 支持 Signal 私密通信应用开发的非营利组织）的主席。你也在维基百科工作过。我很好奇，在这个勒紧裤腰带（belt tightening: 比喻在经济困难时期削减开支）的时刻，你的技术专长是如何在这些方面发挥作用的。

Katherine Mayer: Well, I actually think that technology is an enormous advantage for the complex structure that you have. You asked me about the business model earlier, and I think it's a great lead into this. Right, there is a way in which we could be in competition. All of these local stations seeking to make now transform their work for a national audience. Technology actually offers us the place to bring all of that aggregate reporting together. And so if somebody is running a really great story here in LA about a local band that is about to go on tour, and I would, I reference that because music is a big part of what we do at NPR. We now have the ability to serve that to any audience member anywhere across the country who might be interested in what that band is about to do. We wouldn't have been able to do that in a previous era. But the ability of digital platforms, the affordances for us to serve audiences seamlessly, they don't think of us as our local station versus our local station. They think of us as one public media experience. And that's really what we're leaning into. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：嗯，我其实认为技术对于你拥有的复杂结构来说是一个巨大的优势。你之前问我关于商业模式的问题，我认为这很好地引出了这一点。是的，我们有可能存在竞争。所有这些地方电台现在都试图将其工作转化为服务全国观众。技术实际上为我们提供了一个将所有这些聚合报道（aggregate reporting: 汇集来自不同来源的报道）整合起来的平台。因此，如果在洛杉矶有人正在报道一个即将巡演的本地乐队的故事——我之所以提到这一点，是因为音乐是我们在NPR工作中很重要的一个部分——我们现在有能力将这个故事提供给全国任何地方可能对这个乐队即将做的事情感兴趣的听众。在以前的时代我们是做不到的。但数字平台的能力，我们无缝服务观众的可能性，让人们不再把我们看作是我们的地方电台与另一个地方电台之间的区别。他们把我们看作是一个公共媒体体验。这正是我们正在努力的方向。

Interviewer: So then what are you going to do differently, you know, in this environment? What are you going to change to bring in more money that you need? 采访者：那么，在这个环境下，你们将做些什么不同的事情？你们将做出什么改变来筹集更多所需的资金？

Katherine Mayer: Well, certainly investing pretty heavily in the fundraising piece. I mean, I don't think that that's dissimilar from what we've seen in nonprofit news as a whole. We've seen tremendous success in the nonprofit news sector in building subscriptions and building memberships. That's an opportunity for us. And in fact, we've been doing it for a long time. We have millions and millions of loyal donors across the country. It's time to bring in the next generation. You mentioned I come from Wikipedia. We have a little experience in this, right? So that's one piece of it. I also think that it's an opportunity for us to think about how we're doing our news gathering and news production more effectively. And so we have all these journalists across the country. What does it mean to do the national editorial planning where we're really thinking about how to elevate these conversations that are happening around the country into the national story? And then of course we have this great international and national reporting that we're to now weave into the mix. 凯瑟琳·梅耶：嗯，当然会在筹款方面投入大量精力。我的意思是，我认为这与我们整个非营利新闻领域所见的情况并无二致。我们看到非营利新闻部门在建立订阅和会员方面取得了巨大成功。这对我们来说是一个机会。事实上，我们已经这样做了很长时间。我们在全国各地拥有数百万忠实的捐助者。现在是时候吸引下一代了。你提到我来自维基百科。我们在这方面有一点经验，对吧？所以这是一部分。我还认为，这也是我们思考如何更有效地进行新闻采集和新闻制作的机会。我们在全国各地拥有所有这些记者。进行全国性编辑规划意味着什么？我们真正思考的是如何将全国各地正在进行的这些对话提升为全国性新闻。当然，我们还有这些出色的国际和国内报道，现在我们将把它们融入到混合内容中。

Interviewer: Katherine Mayer, NPR CEO, thank you very much for being with us here at Bloomberg Screen Time. Meanwhile, Warner Music Group is said to be in close agreement with Netflix to create a slate of movies and documentaries based on the record label's catalog of artists and songs. That's according to sources. Here's what Warner Music Group CEO Robert Khal said about a potential deal. 采访者：NPR首席执行官凯瑟琳·梅耶，非常感谢你来到彭博荧幕时间大会。与此同时，据消息人士透露，华纳音乐集团（Warner Music Group）据说即将与奈飞（Netflix）达成协议，将根据该唱片公司的艺人名录和歌曲创作一系列电影和纪录片。以下是华纳音乐集团首席执行官罗伯特·卡尔（Robert Khal）就潜在交易发表的看法。

Robert Kyncl: I cannot confirm anything. But if you step back and think about this, it makes a lot—you know, our company has tremendous catalog, Prince, Madonna, Fleetwood Mac, you know, it's just it just goes on and on and on. The stories that we have are incredible, and they haven't really been told. It may be more like Marvel for music. That's, that's, that's where we are. And it will be unlocked and so it makes a lot of sense for us to partner with a company that can bring it to life all around the world, and it's exciting both for acts who are no longer with us, but we make their estates happy and satisfied, but also for acts who are with us, who then can actually help bring young audiences to the streaming platforms. Robert Kinsel, Warner Music Group CEO. 罗伯特·金塞尔：我无法证实任何事情。但是，如果你退后一步思考这个问题，它会带来很多——你知道，我们公司拥有庞大的内容库（catalog: 指唱片公司、电影工作室等拥有的艺术作品、歌曲、电影等版权集合），Prince、Madonna、Fleetwood Mac，你知道，数不胜数。我们拥有的故事令人难以置信，而且它们从未真正被讲述过。这可能更像是音乐界的漫威（Marvel）。这就是我们所处的位置，它将被解锁，所以与一家能够将其在全球范围内实现的公司合作对我们来说非常有意义，这不仅对已故的艺人令人兴奋，我们让他们的遗产受益人感到高兴和满意，也对与我们合作的艺人有益，他们可以帮助吸引年轻观众到流媒体平台。华纳音乐集团首席执行官罗伯特·金塞尔。

奈飞的游戏战略：从手机到电视的社交派对游戏

Interviewer: Then I think it's hard for any brand that has a deep, you know, consumer sense of what are you doing for me, right? And then you're like, "Well, I'm going to do this as well." And you have, it takes a while to really build up that sense of what's happening. But it's not, it's not that dissimilar to, let's say, when we launched, you know, in a in a new country like I, you know, you went to Japan, right? So when we started in Japan, 2% of the Japanese population had ever heard of Netflix. So nobody knew what we, who, nobody could nobody knew our name, much less be able to tell you what we were doing. And we're doing pay TV service in a country that doesn't really have a great pay TV, you know, operation. We're doing over the internet in a way that was totally new. And so you, you got to every day build a little bit of like what are we doing, who we are, what are we, you know, how are we here to serve you. So that 10-year journey, let's say, you know, we just did the 10th anniversary in Japan, you know, tremendous progress over 10 years, but it took us a long time. And I think, you know, the gaming situation is not dissimilar to that. How much is it an impediment that for the most part now you can only play it on your, on your phone? 采访者：我认为对于任何一个品牌来说，如果消费者已经对“你为我做了什么”有了深刻的认识，那么你再说“我还要做这个”，就很难了，对吧？需要一段时间才能真正建立起人们对新事物的认知。但这和我们在一个新国家推出服务，比如说，你去了日本，情况并没有太大不同，对吧？所以当我们刚在日本开始时，只有2%的日本人听说过奈飞。没有人知道我们是谁，没有人知道我们的名字，更不用说能告诉你我们在做什么了。我们当时在一个付费电视运营不怎么发达的国家提供通过互联网传输的付费电视服务，这种方式是全新的。所以你每天都必须一点一点地去建立这种认知：我们在做什么，我们是谁，我们是来如何服务你的。所以，这十年的旅程，我们刚刚庆祝了在日本的十周年，这十年取得了巨大的进步，但我们花了很长时间。而且我认为，游戏领域的情况与此相似。大部分游戏现在只能在手机上玩，这在多大程度上是一个障碍？

Greg Peters: Well, I would say, you know, the phone is what's great about it is it's a well-developed gaming ecosystem, right? So it, you know, folks know to find games there, but it's also a highly competitive gaming ecosystem. So its developedness gives you both that upside and that downside. But what's exciting is that now we are moving beyond the phone to the TV. So I mentioned like one the big gaming areas we're going after one of the big gaming areas we're going after now is, you know, social gaming experiences that will show up on your TV. So, we are now announcing, we're going to announce here actually that we're going to have these social party games, a pack of social party games that you can play on your TV with your phone as the controller, and it's things like, you know, recognizable games like Boggle, you got Pictionary, we've got a Lego party game, we've got Tetris, we've got like a mafia style. Who done it? This is, this is, uh, me and our CTO Elizabeth playing Boggle here, which is, uh, it's, um, we're two very competitive people. So it got, it got pretty ugly. 格雷格·彼得斯：嗯，我想说，手机之所以出色，是因为它是一个发展完善的游戏生态系统，对吧？所以，人们知道在哪里可以找到游戏，但它也是一个竞争激烈的游戏生态系统。因此，它的发展完善既带来了优势也带来了劣势。但令人兴奋的是，我们现在正从手机扩展到电视。所以我提到了我们正在追逐的一个主要游戏领域，就是将出现在你电视上的社交游戏体验。所以，我们现在宣布，我们实际上将在这里宣布，我们将推出这些社交派对游戏，一套社交派对游戏，你可以用手机作为控制器在电视上玩，它包括像你熟悉的Boggle、Pictionary，我们还有一个乐高派对游戏，我们有俄罗斯方块，我们还有一款像狼人杀（mafia style: 指一种社交推理游戏，玩家扮演不同角色，通过讨论和投票找出坏人）风格的游戏。这是谁干的？这是，这是，嗯，我和我们的首席技术官伊丽莎白在这里玩Boggle，嗯，我们都是非常争强好胜的人。所以场面一度变得很激烈。

Interviewer: Who won it? 采访者：谁赢了？

Greg Peters: I'm not going to say. 格雷格·彼得斯：我不说。

Interviewer: That means you lost. 采访者：那说明你输了。

Greg Peters: Oh, does it? Why don't you watch the video, my friend? You, you triggered my competitive spirit. But this is again, this is, you know, so it's your phone, which is an incredible device. And there's all sorts of things you're going to be able to do on your phone that you can't do on a normal controller like touchscreen. And this is us basically picking our, our words on that. And it's, you know, it's dead simple to use. It's intuitive. And then this is, you know, us on the earliest days of how we actually can use that. And if we, you know, basically are going to like unleash this with a bunch of creators and they're going to go figure out stuff that we didn't even imagine that they can do with that interactivity. 格雷格·彼得斯：哦，是吗？我的朋友，你为什么不看看视频呢？你激起了我的竞争精神。但这又回到了重点，你看，你的手机，它是一个不可思议的设备。你可以在手机上做各种在普通控制器上做不到的事情，比如触摸屏。我们基本上是在选择我们的词语。而且，你知道，它使用起来非常简单。它很直观。这是我们最早如何实际使用它的日子。如果我们，你知道，基本上将与一群创作者一起释放这个功能，他们将发现我们甚至没有想象过他们可以利用这种互动性做到的事情。

Twitch CEO谈直播与社区的力量

Interviewer: That was Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters. Key conversations coming up, gaming with Twitch CEO Dan Clancy, UniS Lee of Scopely. One of the top streamers out there is Poke Main. So much more from Los Angeles and Bloomberg Screen Time. This is Bloomberg Tech. Welcome back to a special edition of Bloomberg Tech. We're live from Bloomberg Screen Time in Los Angeles. Amazon's streaming platform Twitch (一个主要用于电子游戏直播的全球性实时流媒体视频平台) is growing online stars by the minute. It's averaging more than 105 million monthly visitors globally. And here to discuss the current state, but also the future state of the live streaming business model is Twitch CEO Dan Clancy. 采访者：刚才那是奈飞联席首席执行官格雷格·彼得斯。接下来将有重要对话，与Twitch首席执行官丹·克兰西（Dan Clancy）和Scopely的尤妮斯·李（Unice Lee）探讨游戏。最顶级的直播主之一是Pokimane。更多精彩来自洛杉矶和彭博荧幕时间大会。这里是彭博科技。欢迎回到彭博科技特辑。我们正在洛杉矶的彭博荧幕时间大会现场直播。亚马逊的流媒体平台Twitch正在以惊人的速度培养网络明星。它在全球范围内每月平均拥有超过1.05亿访客。Twitch首席执行官丹·克兰西将在这里讨论直播商业模式的现状和未来。

Dan Clancy: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. 丹·克兰西：谢谢邀请。很高兴来到这里。

Interviewer: So, Twitch is such an interesting thing, an entity. There are loads of people out there that aren't familiar with it. And actually, I thought the most sensible place to start is like, can you just explain what Twitch is and how it works? 采访者：所以，Twitch是一个非常有趣的事物，一个实体。有很多人不熟悉它。实际上，我认为最明智的起点是：你能解释一下Twitch是什么以及它是如何运作的吗？

Dan Clancy: Quickly for those. So, simplest way. So, Twitch is a live streaming platform where people go live. Okay. And so if you say it's a live version of YouTube or something like that, but the thing that really makes Twitch unique and the kind of need that it meets in people is, as human beings, we are all yearning for community. And what happens on Twitch is people go live and they basically share their lives. They let people into their living room. They go out in the world and they explore. They game. And then what they do is very authentically engage with those people that are watching. And since people spend a fair amount of time watching these people, a community forms between the folks that are watching. And I think that is really the magic of Twitch and what distinguishes Twitch from many other platforms that have live streaming. The phrase I use is we're community-centric live streaming (以社区互动为核心的实时直播), because people find a place where they belong. 丹·克兰西：简单来说。Twitch是一个人们进行直播的实时流媒体平台。你可以说它是YouTube的直播版本，但真正让Twitch独特并满足人们需求的是，作为人类，我们都渴望社区（community）。在Twitch上，人们进行直播，基本上分享他们的生活。他们让人们进入他们的客厅。他们走到世界各地探索。他们玩游戏。然后，他们以非常真实的方式与那些观看的人互动。由于人们花相当多的时间观看这些人，观看者之间就形成了社区。我认为这才是Twitch真正的魔力，也是它与许多其他拥有直播功能的平台不同之处。我用的短语是，我们是以社区为中心的直播，因为人们在这里找到了归属感。

Interviewer: So the simple origin was like people would be playing video games in simple terms and they would be filming and streaming themselves playing this game sometimes with others. But it's kind of evolved into a much broader set of content. IRL (In Real Life: 在现实生活中) or just chatting is are things that I you know I'm following on the platform. Is there a still a heavy proportion of activity that's gaming related or is it now much more diverse? 采访者：所以最初很简单，人们会玩视频游戏，并录制和直播自己玩游戏的过程，有时会和他人一起。但它已经演变成更广泛的内容。现实生活直播（IRL streaming: In Real Life streaming，指直播非游戏内容，而是主播的日常生活活动）或者只是聊天，这些都是我在平台上关注的内容。现在是否仍有很大一部分活动与游戏相关，还是现在更加多样化了？

Dan Clancy: Well, it's very diverse and the interesting story is even before Twitch, Twitch started as Justin TV and in Justin TV it was life casting. So in fact it wasn't about gaming. And then Twitch formed life casting is what they called it back then where you were just casting your life. And then Twitch pivoted and focused on gaming. And that's when it really took off. And now it's kind of come full circle because while gaming is still a big part of Twitch and will always be a big part of Twitch, more and more creators are out there just doing all sorts of things. You said IRL, which is in real life, which means you go out on the streets, you go climbing a mountain. I've watched you stream from a water slide in a donut. Yes. Necessary content. 丹·克兰西：嗯，它非常多样化，有趣的是，甚至在Twitch之前，Twitch最初是作为Justin TV开始的，在Justin TV上是生活直播。所以事实上它并不是关于游戏的。然后Twitch成立时，他们当时称之为“生活直播”，你只是直播你的生活。然后Twitch转型并专注于游戏。那才是它真正起飞的时候。现在它又回到了原点，因为虽然游戏仍然是Twitch的重要组成部分，并将永远是Twitch的重要组成部分，但越来越多的创作者正在做各种各样的事情。你提到了IRL，也就是现实生活（In Real Life），这意味着你走上街头，你去爬山。我看到你在甜甜圈形状的水上滑梯上直播。是的。必要的内容。

Interviewer: Is that IRL? 采访者：那也是IRL吗？

Dan Clancy: That's IRL streaming. It's in real life. 丹·克兰西：那是IRL直播。在现实生活中。

Interviewer: DJ Clancy, I think, is who you're streaming as. I'm interested though, like Ed does such a great job on this show reminding us of the sheer scale and the power of numbers of gaming. When we think about big movie hits, it pales into comparison of the amount of money earned by gaming versus video games. And what amazes me is how much the content creators are winning in terms of content. Yeah, they, they are getting $100 million contracts to jump from you to Kick or from Kick to you or to YouTube, more than LeBron James is earning. Can you go to actually who your competition therefore is and how you fight for that content in this moment? 采访者：DJ Clancy，我想那是你直播时的身份。不过我很好奇，就像埃德在这个节目中出色地提醒我们游戏产业的庞大规模和数字力量一样。当我们想到大型电影大片时，它与游戏和电子游戏所赚取的金额相比就显得黯然失色了。令我惊讶的是，内容创作者在内容方面获得了多少成功。是的，他们获得了数亿美元的合同，从你们平台跳槽到Kick，或者从Kick跳到你们平台，或者到YouTube，这比勒布朗·詹姆斯赚得还多。你能否谈谈你们的竞争对手是谁，以及你们在这个时刻如何争取这些内容？

Dan Clancy: Yeah, the way I look at it as we're fairly unique in this space and I don't focus on the competition because as a live streaming platform at our scale, there are smaller ones, but you know, really when we think of the social media space, you have YouTube, you have TikTok, you have Instagram, but Twitch is really the only one that solely focuses on this community-centric live streaming experience and the way I describe it sometimes is we actually are a long form platform and that people sit there and watch for one hour, two hours, so in that sense we're like Prime Video and Netflix, but we're social. So we're sort of right in the middle of what I'll call the streaming platforms and the social media platforms where we're really a long form social media platform. 丹·克兰西：是的，我认为我们在这个领域是相当独特的，我不关注竞争，因为作为一个我们这种规模的直播平台，有比我们小的平台，但是你知道，当我们真正考虑社交媒体领域时，你有YouTube，你有TikTok，你有Instagram，但Twitch是唯一一个专注于这种以社区为中心的直播体验的平台，我有时会这样描述它，我们实际上是一个长篇平台，人们会坐在那里观看一小时、两小时，所以从这个意义上说，我们就像Prime Video和奈飞，但我们是社交化的。所以我们介于我所说的流媒体平台和社交媒体平台之间，我们实际上是一个长篇社交媒体平台。

Interviewer: You're also, dare I say it, right in the middle of the culture wars. And I'm just really interested as to how you navigate that in leadership when people are bringing them into their homes in a more intimate setting and feel that they can share anything that they feel. But that then can blow up in many different ways. 采访者：你也在，恕我直言，正处于文化战争的中心。我真的很好奇，当人们以更亲密的方式将他们带入家中，并觉得他们可以分享任何感受时，你在领导层是如何应对这种情况的。但这可能会以许多不同的方式爆发。

Dan Clancy: Yeah. So, first of all, it's very important that we take it very seriously in terms of having a set of guidelines of what's appropriate on Twitch and what's not. And so we spend a lot of time thinking about that and letting our creators do what they need to do to protect themselves. 丹·克兰西：是的。所以，首先，非常重要的是，我们非常认真地对待制定一套关于Twitch上哪些内容合适、哪些不合适的指导方针。因此，我们花了很多时间思考这个问题，并让我们的创作者做他们需要做的事情来保护自己。

Interviewer: And you kick them off, too, if they're not? 采访者：如果他们不遵守，你也会把他们踢出去吗？

Dan Clancy: Kick them off if they're not adhering to them. That's really important for our platform. But really what it is is that's just one of the things you have to deal with if you want to get that authenticity. Because this key difference between Twitch and many other short form platforms, if you're just making a short clip, you can put on a mask. When you're live streaming, you can't put on a mask. And one thing that's been leading a lot of celebrities, entertainers, athletes, influence, all sorts of people now to live streaming is they want that authentic, honest connection with their fans and turn those fans into community. 丹·克兰西：如果他们不遵守，就会把他们踢出去。这对于我们的平台来说非常重要。但实际上，如果你想要真实性，这就是你必须处理的问题之一。因为Twitch和许多其他短视频平台之间的关键区别在于，如果你只是制作一个短片，你可以戴上面具。当你进行直播时，你无法戴上面具。现在，许多名人、艺人、运动员、有影响力的人物以及各种各样的人都转向直播，原因之一是他们希望与粉丝建立真实、诚实的联系，并将这些粉丝转化为社区。

Interviewer: Dan, sorry to interrupt. Team. Let's bring up the Gavin Newsom session then and just play a little bit of it if we can. There's some sound associated with it, Dan, but in very simple terms, Gavin Newsom went on the Twitch and not providing due process, went on the Twitch platform, and my understanding is that, you know, he was engaging with one of his children's favorite content creators. That, that's the governor of California using Twitch to communicate. Just explain how you feel about that. 采访者：丹，抱歉打断一下。团队。如果可以的话，我们来播放一下加文·纽森（Gavin Newsom）的片段。丹，虽然有声音，但简单来说，加文·纽森在Twitch上，在没有提供正当程序（due process: 法律原则，指政府在剥夺个人生命、自由或财产时必须遵循公平的法律程序）的情况下，使用了Twitch平台，我的理解是，他正在与他孩子最喜欢的内容创作者互动。也就是说，加州州长正在使用Twitch进行交流。请解释一下你对此的感受。

Dan Clancy: Yeah. The way I think of it, what he's doing is he's authentically interacting with, you know, those people that may have an interest in him, right? And I do that myself. I stream and have a great time doing it. And when you do it, you realize there's like, there's something really special about having that impact on people and having that feedback, that visceral feeling of, you know, when I, when I stream, I'll play the piano and sing and they'll say, "Oh, I love that song." And it really kind of makes, it's very different than just looking at metrics like you do on other social media. 丹·克兰西：是的。我的看法是，他正在真诚地与那些可能对他感兴趣的人互动，对吧？我自己也这样做。我也会直播，玩得很开心。当你这样做时，你会意识到对人们产生那种影响并得到反馈，那种发自内心的感觉，真的是非常特别的。你知道，当我直播时，我会弹钢琴唱歌，他们会说：“哦，我喜欢那首歌。”这真的很有意义，与你在其他社交媒体上只看数据非常不同。

Interviewer: You've been really clear. There are guidelines for the content creators. There are guidelines for the viewers in how they interact. But Twitch is one of a number of platforms that is caught up in a wider discussion about people that want to talk politics or even in the context of radicalization. Just give us your sort of blanket policy and approach to managing that environment on the Twitch platform, please. Because DC is paying attention, not just to Twitch. I, I get that, but, but it is important. 采访者：你已经说得很清楚了。内容创作者有准则。观众在互动时也有准则。但Twitch是众多平台之一，卷入了一场更广泛的讨论，关于那些想谈论政治甚至涉及激进化背景的人。请向我们介绍一下你们在Twitch平台上管理这种环境的总体政策和方法。因为华盛顿特区正在关注，不仅仅是Twitch。我明白这一点，但它确实很重要。

Dan Clancy: Well, that's what I'd say like first of all, our policy is, you know, you can freely express your views. It's how you say it that's important that you should not be attacking and hate and harassment is not allowed on our platform and we're very clear about that. But we understand that people are going to express— 丹·克兰西：嗯，首先我想说的是，我们的政策是，你可以自由表达你的观点。重要的是你表达的方式，你不应该进行攻击，我们的平台不允许仇恨和骚扰，我们对此非常明确。但我们理解人们会表达——

Interviewer: Who adjudicates that? 采访者：谁来裁决这些？

Dan Clancy: We have both automated techniques and we have a large group of people that work whenever something's reported to then analyze it and see if it adheres to our community guidelines and then if there's a violation we take an enforcement action. 丹·克兰西：我们既有自动化技术，也有一大批工作人员，每当有报告时，他们就会进行分析，查看是否符合我们的社区准则，如果存在违规行为，我们就会采取强制执行措施（enforcement action）。

Interviewer: What's so great is you two are going to be on stage together a little bit later. Twitch CEO Dan Clansancy. We so thank you for your time with us on the show as well. Well, now coming up, we're going to be speaking with Scopely COO Unice Lee about the growth and competition in the mobile gaming industry. This is Bloomberg Tech. 采访者：最棒的是，你们两位稍后将一起登台。Twitch首席执行官丹·克兰西。我们非常感谢您在节目中与我们分享时间。好的，接下来，我们将与Scopely首席运营官尤妮斯·李（Unice Lee）探讨移动游戏行业的增长和竞争。这里是彭博科技。

Scopely首席运营官尤妮斯·李：移动游戏与竞争优势

In the realm of mobile gaming, there are a few key players increasingly dominating the space. One of those is Scopely. It's the publisher behind Marvel Strikeforce, Yatsi with Buddies, Pokémon Go, my kids favorite. Scopely chief operating officer Ununice Lee joins us now. And we see that IP (Intellectual Property: 知识产权，指品牌、角色、故事、特许经营权等) and it stands out so much. UniCe, but competition is really building. How do you see that as a really helping you focus on the business, scale the business, but also try drive off those competitors? 在移动游戏领域，有几家主要参与者正日益主导这一领域。其中之一就是Scopely。它是《漫威：突击力量》（Marvel Strikeforce）、《和好友一起玩骰子》（Yatsi with Buddies）、《宝可梦GO》（Pokémon Go）——我孩子们的最爱——等游戏的发行商。Scopely首席运营官尤妮斯·李现在加入了我们。我们看到这些知识产权非常突出。尤妮斯，但竞争确实在加剧。你如何看待这能真正帮助你专注于业务、扩大业务规模，同时也能驱逐那些竞争对手？

Unice Lee: Sure. I mean, it's always great to have competition because it only fuels that drive to innovate and to, you know, exceed expectations for us. We welcome all of it. I think Scopely in particular is always focused on a community first approach. And so the games that we're building, we think about how are we creating these highly social engaging experiences. And I think that's what sets us apart ultimately because we always start from that core premise. 尤妮斯·李：当然。我的意思是，有竞争总是好事，因为它只会进一步激发我们创新和超越自我的动力。我们欢迎所有竞争。我认为Scopely尤其始终专注于“社区优先”的方法。所以我们正在开发的游戏，我们思考的是如何创造这些高度社交化的沉浸式体验。我认为这最终就是我们与众不同之处，因为我们总是从这个核心前提出发。

Interviewer: And that highly social engagement drives revenue. I'm assuming. Just talk us through the business model. 采访者：我猜想，高度的社交参与推动了收入增长。请为我们讲解一下商业模式。

Unice Lee: Sure. I mean, it's pretty astounding. Last year we achieved over $10 billion in lifetime revenue. We're really excited about that. We have 500 million plus daily active users touching our games in the last 12 months. There's just amazing things happening and we're so excited about adding Pokémon Go to our stable or amazing portfolio of games. They continue to grow and reach new players every day and so yeah, it's pretty amazing. 尤妮斯·李：当然。我的意思是，这相当惊人。去年我们的终生收入（lifetime revenue: 产品或服务在整个生命周期内产生的总收入）超过了100亿美元。我们对此非常兴奋。在过去的12个月里，我们有超过5亿的日活跃用户接触我们的游戏。正在发生的事情非常棒，我们非常高兴能将《宝可梦GO》加入到我们稳定而精彩的游戏组合中。它们每天都在持续增长并吸引新的玩家，所以，是的，这相当了不起。

Interviewer: Unice here at Bloomberg Screen Time, there's been a lot of industry news. I wondered if we could run through some of it. So like last night Netflix to me basically demoed a technology that casts a mobile game from your phone to your TV screen. As a hardcore gamer in many different domains and formats wasn't blown away by that. What do you make of that concept and idea? I mean, it's a mobile game cast to the television. 采访者：尤妮斯，在彭博荧幕时间大会上，有很多行业新闻。我想我们能否回顾一下。比如昨晚，奈飞基本上向我展示了一项技术，可以将手机上的手游投射到电视屏幕上。作为一名在许多不同领域和格式下的铁杆玩家，我对此并没有感到非常惊讶。你对这个概念和想法有什么看法？我的意思是，它就是把一个手游投射到电视上。

Unice Lee: I'm also a hardcore gamer, so I feel you. I think at the end of the day, we're trying to create again highly social engaging experiences. And for Scopely, it's about trying to be on the different mediums where our players want to be and even bringing our community together in real life as we have with the Go Fest, which is for Pokemon Go community. So, I think for us, we're just look, we're going to always keep an eye on where people are playing, how they want to engage with our content, and try to serve that up to our community. 尤妮斯·李：我也是一个铁杆玩家，所以我理解你的感受。我认为归根结底，我们仍然在努力创造高度社交化的沉浸式体验。对于Scopely来说，这意味着努力在玩家希望出现的各种媒介上存在，甚至像我们在为《宝可梦GO》社区举办的Go Fest那样，将我们的社区成员带到现实生活中来。所以，我认为对我们而言，我们会始终关注人们在哪里玩游戏，他们希望如何与我们的内容互动，并努力将这些体验提供给我们的社区。

Interviewer: The industry has seen seismic shifts in the last two years. I think that's a completely fair statement. You have some financial relationship with this with Saudi through various investments that they've made. The biggest most recent news is the the take private of Electronic Arts. My question is very simple. Have you had discussions about cooperating with EA? You know, you are very strong in mobile gaming. EA is not so strong in mobile gaming. 采访者：过去两年，行业发生了翻天覆地的变化（seismic shifts: 比喻巨大的、根本性的改变）。我认为这是一个完全公平的说法。你们通过沙特阿拉伯的各种投资与他们建立了一些财务关系。最近最大的新闻是艺电（Electronic Arts: 简称EA，一家美国电子游戏公司）的私有化（take private: 将一家上市公司通过回购股份或收购等方式转变为私有公司）。我的问题很简单。你们是否讨论过与艺电合作？你知道，你们在手游方面非常强大，而艺电在手游方面并非如此。

Unice Lee: We are, we have so much respect for what EA has been able to do and the amazing, you know, brands and IPs that they've built. So, we have we come from that place first. Right now, we're not in specific discussions, but post deal if those opportunities arrive, we're definitely open to discussions for sure. 尤妮斯·李：我们非常尊重艺电所取得的成就，以及他们所建立的那些令人惊叹的品牌和知识产权。所以，我们首先从这个角度出发。目前，我们没有进行具体的讨论，但如果在交易完成后出现这些机会，我们肯定会乐于讨论。

Interviewer: And we think about ultimately where you've come from, the fact that you were busy over at Activision with Call of Duty. You are someone who calls yourself a hardcore gamer. Where do you think the balance shifts in terms of mobile versus console? How do you see that continuing to evolve? 采访者：我们最终考虑到你的背景，你在动视（Activision）忙于《使命召唤》（Call of Duty）的事实。你是一个自称是铁杆玩家的人。你认为手游和主机游戏之间的平衡会如何变化？你认为这种情况会如何继续演变？

Unice Lee: Honestly, I think our community, our players want to access our content in different ways. And it's not this huge battle so much, but again, as I mentioned earlier, it's about serving our community where they want to engage with our content, where they want to play. And I think there's a place for all of it. We are also we have several things which I can't talk about, but in development that are cross-platform and across platforms you may not expect from Scopely. 尤妮斯·李：老实说，我认为我们的社区、我们的玩家希望以不同的方式获取我们的内容。这并不是一场多么巨大的战争，但再次强调，正如我之前提到的，关键在于在社区想要与我们的内容互动、想要玩游戏的地方为他们提供服务。我认为所有这些都有其存在的空间。我们还有一些正在开发中的跨平台项目，是你们可能不会从Scopely预料到的，但目前我无法透露细节。

Interviewer: Okay, keep us tuned on that respect. But you, we can go global with you because you're a woman who is international, very core. You've been in London, you studied in Asia, and I'm thinking about how things change from global era to global era. Pokémon Go inherently for us a very Japanese bit of IP that has become a total global phenomenon. 采访者：好的，请在这方面让我们保持关注。但是你，我们可以和你一起走向全球，因为你是一位核心的国际化女性。你曾在伦敦生活，在亚洲学习过，我正在思考事物是如何从一个全球时代走向另一个全球时代的。《宝可梦GO》对我们来说，本质上是一个非常日本的知识产权，但它已经成为一个完全的全球现象。

Unice Lee: Yes, absolutely. I mean, for us again, it's there's a whole wide world to appeal to. And what the beauty of games is that it brings these folks together across the globe. It transcends geographies, cultures, and that's super exciting for us. And that's that social connection part that we want to continue to promote and continue to see. 尤妮斯·李：是的，绝对是。我的意思是，对我们来说，再次强调，这是一个广阔的世界，有着巨大的吸引力。而游戏的魅力在于它能将全球各地的人们聚集在一起。它超越了地理、文化的界限，这对我们来说非常令人兴奋。这就是我们希望继续推广和看到的社交连接部分。

Interviewer: So, we're talking about this thing, right? The mobile, right? And gaming is one thing I can do on my mobile phone. Do you guys consider your rivals to be TikTok? Literally, this is Bloomberg Screen Time, you know, how do you assess a marketplace where the competition for rivals isn't necessarily in the time spent on gaming? 采访者：所以我们正在谈论这个，对吧？移动设备，对吧？游戏是我可以在手机上做的一件事。你们认为TikTok是你们的竞争对手吗？说真的，这里是彭博荧幕时间大会，你知道，你如何评估一个市场，在这个市场中，竞争对手之间的竞争不一定体现在游戏时间上？

Unice Lee: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the gaming space itself is so fast moving and evolves very quickly. So wherever eyeballs intention is, again, wherever our players are fans, because they're looking at IP (Intellectual Property: 知识产权，指品牌、角色、故事、特许经营权等) through various mediums. So being conscious of that it's not just through the game, there's different ways of the IP coming to life. So us staying on top of that is super important at Scopely. Again, how do we connect with the community where they want to? Mobile is one of the, you know, most tactile and easiest ways to do so, but it's something that is always on our minds. 尤妮斯·李：是的。是的，我的意思是，我认为游戏领域本身发展非常迅速，演变也很快。所以无论人们的目光和意图在哪里，再次强调，无论我们的玩家粉丝身在何处，因为他们通过各种媒介接触知识产权。所以我们意识到不仅仅是通过游戏，还有不同的方式让知识产权焕发生机。因此，在Scopely，我们始终掌握这些至关重要。再次强调，我们如何与社区进行连接？移动设备是其中最直观、最简单的方式之一，但这是我们一直在思考的问题。

Interviewer: Roblox CEO Damjuki told us very recently that sometimes on a Friday night their servers melt because of all the condensed activity in the mobile gaming domain. Do you ever come across like flash moments like that where the world is just playing at the same time? 采访者：Roblox（一个大型多人在线游戏创作平台）首席执行官达姆朱基（Damjuki）最近告诉我们，有时在周五晚上，他们的服务器会因移动游戏领域所有密集活动而崩溃。你们是否也遇到过那种全世界都在同时玩游戏的爆发时刻？

Unice Lee: I mean, we have so many people engaging daily, hourly, with our products because of their deep love of these IPs. Star Trek Fleet Command is a great example. 75% of our players of that game, they are touching it every single day. Every single day and in meaningful amounts of time. I mean, I know it's for your business. I think for Star Trek fans, it's like amazing to be able to be in that universe and those are hardcore fans that that IP attracts real loyalty and so our ability to do that, you know, for that community is pretty special. How many years has it been since I've done like that on television? Unicely, chief operating ever done it on television. 尤妮斯·李：我的意思是，我们每天、每小时都有那么多人使用我们的产品，因为他们对这些知识产权有着深厚的热爱。《星际迷航：舰队指挥》（Star Trek Fleet Command）就是一个很好的例子。那款游戏的玩家中有75%每天都在玩。每天都在玩，而且投入了大量有意义的时间。我的意思是，我知道这对于你的业务来说是如此。我认为对于《星际迷航》的粉丝来说，能够置身于那个宇宙中真是太棒了，那些是铁杆粉丝，那个知识产权吸引了真正的忠诚度，所以我们能够为那个社区做到这一点，你知道，是相当特别的。我有多久没在电视上做过这样的事了？尤妮斯·李，首席运营官，她曾在电视上做过。

Interviewer: I have remember I did do it once. Well, let's leave it behind. Uni Lee, chief operating officer at Scopia. It's great to have you on Blumotech. Thank you so much. 采访者：我记得我做过一次。好吧，我们就不提了。Scopely的首席运营官尤妮斯·李。很高兴你能来彭博科技。非常感谢。

知名主播Pokimane：内容创作的演变与商业模式

Interviewer: So Hollywood's typically focused on the people in front of the camera, but today increasingly we're talking about streamers. People like Imanis, more commonly known as Pokimane. She's one of the most popular streamers on Twitch with nearly 10 million dedicated followers and another 20 million across other platforms. We're talking YouTube, X, Facebook, Insta. I'm delighted to say that Pokey joins us now. We've been talking in recent weeks. It's great to finally have you on Bloomberg Tech. 采访者：好莱坞通常关注镜头前的人物，但如今我们越来越多地谈论直播主。比如伊曼尼斯，更广为人知的名字是Pokimane（一位摩洛哥裔加拿大Twitch主播和YouTube博主）。她是Twitch上最受欢迎的直播主之一，拥有近1000万忠实粉丝，在其他平台（如YouTube、X、Facebook、Instagram）上还有2000万粉丝。我很高兴Pokimane现在能加入我们。我们最近几周一直在聊。很高兴最终能邀请你来彭博科技。

Pokimane: Likewise. Pokimane：彼此彼此。

Interviewer: Now, now bear with me on this one. But let's just start by asking, what is your day job? How would you describe what it is that you do? 采访者：现在，请耐心听我说。我们先从这个问题开始：你的日常工作是什么？你会如何描述你所做的事情？

Pokimane: In technical terms, I'm a content creator. How I might want to describe it is just I love sharing my life online. I love to entertain people. I love to make people happy. That's about it. I'd say. Pokimane：从技术角度来说，我是一名内容创作者。如果我想描述我的工作，那就是我喜欢在网上分享我的生活。我喜欢娱乐大家。我喜欢让人们开心。差不多就是这样吧，我想。

Interviewer: It, it started with with video games on Twitch like quite a long time ago. You, you've got a long history with Twitch. 采访者：它始于很久以前在Twitch上的视频游戏。你和Twitch有着很长的历史。

Pokimane: I sure do. Pokimane：确实如此。

Interviewer: 2013. 采访者：2013年。

Pokimane: 2013. And like, um, and that's something we share in common, you know, some of the titles in particular, but we just had Dan Clancy on the program earlier. It for you in particular, it is expanded to IRL (In Real Life: 在现实生活中) and just chatting. Is there a moment where that happened? It, it moved beyond video games. Pokimane：2013年。而且，嗯，这是我们共同点，你知道，尤其是一些游戏名称，但我们刚刚请丹·克兰西参加了节目。对你来说，特别是，它已经扩展到了现实生活（In Real Life）直播和纯聊天。有没有一个时刻，这种转变发生了？它超越了视频游戏。

Pokimane: I would say, interestingly enough, when I first started streaming, you weren't even allowed to stream IRL or just chatting. It was just games, right? Anything else, you might get banned for a few days. And so, as the platform started not only allowing but supporting different types of content, I of course only wanted to try out those different things. And I also love how it allowed me to showcase different parts of my life. Now, instead of traveling and feeling like, "Oh, I can't do my job, I can't game, I can't speak to my community," I could travel and stream myself in those different countries. So, as both this platform changed and what the audiences like and enjoy changed, I followed in and I was able to explore so many different types of content. Pokimane：我想说，有趣的是，当我刚开始直播时，你甚至不被允许进行现实生活（IRL）直播或只是聊天。当时只有游戏，对吧？做其他任何事情，你可能会被封禁几天。所以，随着平台不仅允许而且支持不同类型的内容，我当然也想尝试那些不同的东西。我也很喜欢它让我能够展示我生活中的不同部分。现在，我旅行时不再觉得“哦，我不能工作，不能玩游戏，不能和我的社区交流”，而是可以在不同的国家旅行并直播自己。因此，随着这个平台的变化，以及观众的喜好和享受的变化，我也跟进并得以探索许多不同类型的内容。

Interviewer: And then we've seen you go to Korea. We've seen you go to around the world. But what's so interesting, Pokey, is that your demographic must have broadened from League of Legends out to now wanting to see you horse ride, talking about some of your health stories. How can you break down the demographics and who it is in your community? 采访者：然后我们看到你去了韩国。我们看到你去了世界各地。但最有趣的是，Pokey，你的受众构成（demographics）一定已经从《英雄联盟》玩家扩展到现在想看你骑马、谈论一些健康故事的人。你能否分析一下你的受众构成以及你的社区里都有哪些人？

Pokimane: Absolutely. What I find the most interesting is that it entirely depends on the piece of content and the platform. So on Twitch, of course, the platform itself is maybe majority men, sometimes younger depending on the game or what you're streaming. But on TikTok, a lot of my videos are like majority female. I do get readies with me, makeup, hauls, all sorts of different things. And I really adore that because it allows me to really tap into and share all the different facets of my hobbies and what I like to do. And you do share your community of friends. They appear with you. There's also though perhaps your brother who doesn't appear so much on screen and you're here in LA. There are safety concerns whether it's in real life or whether it's online as well. How do you think about that and navigate it? Pokimane：当然。我觉得最有趣的是，它完全取决于内容和平台。所以在Twitch上，当然，平台本身可能大部分是男性，有时会更年轻，这取决于游戏或你直播的内容。但在TikTok上，我的很多视频大多是女性观众。我会做和我一起准备、化妆、购物分享等各种不同的内容。我真的很喜欢这一点，因为它让我能够真正深入并分享我爱好的方方面面以及我喜欢做的事情。而且你确实分享了你的朋友圈。他们会和你一起出镜。不过你可能也有一些兄弟姐妹不太常出现在屏幕上，而你现在在洛杉矶。无论是现实生活中还是网络上，都存在安全隐患。你是如何考虑和应对这些问题的？

Pokimane: Oh my, it really depends on the safe the exact safety concern and what aspect it brings. So there's online safety and there's also in-person safety. So, what you said earlier about IRL streaming, I typically don't IRL stream in LA unless I have security with me. Otherwise, I feel a little bit better streaming IRL in other countries. When it comes to moderation online, it's been a trial and error kind of situation, learning how to moderate my platforms, how to feel safe online, how to make sure my community feels safe. So, it's really a lot of different things. Pokimane：天啊，这真的取决于具体的安全问题及其带来的影响。所以有网络安全，也有人身安全。你之前提到IRL直播，我通常不会在洛杉矶进行IRL直播，除非有安保人员陪同。否则，在其他国家进行IRL直播我会感觉好一些。谈到在线内容审核，这就像一个不断试错的过程，学习如何审核我的平台，如何在线上感到安全，如何确保我的社区感到安全。所以，这确实涉及到很多不同的方面。

Interviewer: Pokey as part of the IRL and and just chatting content. Sometimes you have discussed things that are more political or societal issues. How do you choose those that you want to to weigh in on and and then the safety piece you just explained how you factor that in? 采访者：Pokey，作为IRL和纯聊天内容的一部分。有时你讨论过一些更具政治性或社会性的问题。你如何选择你想要参与讨论的话题，然后你刚才解释的安全方面，你又是如何将其考虑在内的？

Pokimane: I would say my priority for starters is of course speaking to my direct experiences and how I know those things affect others. For example, the safety issues that I face online. I'm not the only one and it's not just creators. Any woman, any girl, frankly, any person online can be victim to those same safety issues. So, I love to be a spokesperson for the things that I have direct experience and knowledge in. And then secondly, for me, political topics, what I really feel passionate speaking out about is simply just human rights, respecting other people, what their rights should be in regards to the things that they can say, that they can experience, that they can share. I feel like that's what I feel comfortable talking about. And so aside from that, luckily the safety aspects that I have in place right now allow me to feel comfortable discussing anything. Pokimane：我想说，首先我的优先考虑是，当然，谈论我的直接经验以及我如何知道这些事情会影响到他人。例如，我在网上遇到的安全问题。我不是唯一一个，也不仅仅是创作者。任何女性、任何女孩，坦率地说，任何上网的人都可能成为同样安全问题的受害者。所以，我喜欢为我直接经验和知识范围内的事务发声。其次，对我来说，政治话题中，我真正热衷于发声的只是人权，尊重他人，以及他们在言论、经历和分享方面的权利。我觉得这些是我可以自在谈论的话题。除此之外，幸运的是，我目前采取的安全措施让我可以舒适地讨论任何事情。

Interviewer: Pokey, you've made a career of this. Would you please explain to our Bloomberg Tech audience, you know, how it works, how you make money with with respect, if you're able to like you've also set up a talent agency for create, uh, content creators, you know, how big a piece is that for you? Is it different Twitch versus Instagram for example? So, your streams of income do differ greatly depending on the platform. 采访者：Pokey，你已经把这个做成了一份事业。你能否向我们的彭博科技观众解释一下，你知道，它是如何运作的，你是如何赚钱的，如果你方便的话，你还为内容创作者成立了一家经纪公司，你知道，这在你收入中占多大份额？例如，Twitch和Instagram有什么不同吗？所以，你的收入来源确实因平台而异。

Pokimane: I would say the unique thing about Twitch is that there's a subscription model, which means as opposed to YouTube where you can subscribe to someone for free and you're essentially just following them like you follow someone on Instagram. For Twitch, when you subscribe, you're sending them $5 every month. It's a monthly subscription that also generates income. But for me, the large, large, large, large majority of my career income has come just from sponsorships and contracts. And then probably the second largest piece has come from business ventures. And then the third largest piece might be subscriptions. So I'd say that's the unique piece that most people don't know about Twitch. But for IG and most other platforms, it's primarily ads and sponsors. Pokimane：我想说，Twitch的独特之处在于它有一个订阅模式，这意味着与YouTube不同，YouTube你可以免费订阅某人，本质上只是关注他们，就像你在Instagram上关注某人一样。而在Twitch上，当你订阅时，你每个月会给他们寄5美元。这是一个月度订阅，也会产生收入。但对我来说，我职业生涯收入的绝大部分来自赞助和合同。其次最大的部分可能来自商业投资。然后第三大块可能是订阅。所以我认为这是大多数人不知道的Twitch的独特之处。但对于Instagram和大多数其他平台来说，主要收入是广告和赞助。

Interviewer: We could talk to you for so much longer and I'm very pleased that Ed's going to be on stage with you. Iman Anis, also known as Pokémon Man. We're so pleased that she joined the show. And what a show it has been because that does it for this edition of Bloomberg Tech. But the story doesn't stop. There are so many people going to be on stage. I've got the Foster Sisters. You've got a great Pokey and Dan from Clancy. Like I want to understand the content creator economy so much more because as we just heard, it's so different. And then tomorrow, do not miss this. We're going all in on defense technology. We will speak with the leaders of Anderil, Palanteer, and many other leaders in defense tech from Anderil's headquarters right here in California. You don't want to miss it. There is a lot to recap from the last hour. Check out the pod. Loads of you are listening to it. Super grateful for the feedback we've had. Listen on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, and the Bloomberg platforms. Car, take us out. 采访者：我们本可以和你聊更久，我很高兴埃德会和你一起登台。伊曼·阿尼斯，也被称为Pokimane。我们非常高兴她能加入节目。这真是精彩的一期节目，因为本期的彭博科技到此为止。但故事并未结束。还有很多人将登台。我们有福斯特姐妹。你有很棒的Pokey和来自Clancy的Dan。我想更多地了解内容创作者经济，因为正如我们刚刚听到的，它是如此不同。然后明天，千万不要错过。我们将全力关注国防科技。我们将在安德里尔（Anderil）位于加州的总部采访安德里尔、帕兰提尔（Palantir: 一家美国软件公司，专门从事大数据分析）以及许多其他国防科技领域的领导者。你一定不想错过。上一小时有很多内容可以回顾。请收听播客。很多人都在听。我们非常感谢收到的反馈。请在苹果播客、Spotify、iHeart和彭博平台收听。卡罗琳，请带我们结束。

节目尾声：内容创作与国防科技

I mean, what an amazing array we can do right here in Los Angeles in the world of content creation to the world of defense tech. There's a lot to be had. Yeah, this is Los Angeles and Bloomberg screen time. This is Bloomberg Tech. 我的意思是，我们可以在洛杉矶这里，从内容创作领域到国防科技领域，呈现如此精彩的系列。还有很多值得期待。是的，这里是洛杉矶和彭博荧幕时间大会。这里是彭博科技。