Gerge: When we organized this event, we just wanted to look at the most important questions that we are facing at that time. And this was 5 months ago, and we thought some of it might be AI, but it turned out to be AI is everywhere. So I'm not going to beat around the bush. The two of you are very similar in many ways. You've run or are running large organizations. You're building brands that developers love and use and are engaged with. Thomas, you're now starting something completely new. So, you're also doing something completely different. What is an AI first or AI native team mean to you? And I'll start with you Rajie.

Rajie: Sure. First of all, Gerge, thank you for inviting me and thanks everyone for coming. The energy here is just palpable. So it's really great to be here and I'm really excited to be talking about AI native stuff. Everyone wants to talk about AI these days. So it's fun. But what does an AI native team look like? Well, first of all, it starts with the mindset, right? You have to sort of really believe in doing AI native work and working with agents and things like that. We have teams at Atlassian engineering teams, some of which are still doing the more traditional way of coding and building software because we do have legacy systems that take that. But we have a number of AI native teams where engineers are basically writing zero lines of code. It's all agents. It's orchestration of agents. What we are finding is the lines are blurring between PM, design and engineering where PMs are writing code, designers are writing code. This is basically leading to more productivity generally speaking. And the thing I find is that the teams are not necessarily getting smaller but they are producing a lot more sometimes 2x 5x more and the creativity is going up. What you build is is much more creative. You can put in like screenshots of things and design you know more modern UX and and then you can also between PMs, designs and engineers the the distance is shrinking as well. So that's making for more vigorous conversation and more creativity. I find that the discussion about using AI to produce more efficiency and maybe smaller teams and fewer engineers is missing the point. It's more about what can you create now with AI that you could not create before and how can you be that much more productive and how can you have that much more joy.

Thomas: I think there's multiple answers to this. Rajie gave one of them. If I think about the word AI native in the same context as cloud native, when GitHub started in 2008, nobody spoke about cloud native. It is a term that was introduced after the fact after in identifying how all these companies reinvented how they're deploying and and and developing systems. And I think the same is going to be true for AI native. What we're calling AI native now is going to be very different than what is going to be AI native in a few years. And I have two two boys 13 and 11 and most of the time they're playing Minecraft. Sometimes I can also convince them to code but certainly they are AI native. One day they came home, I think it was a year or two ago, and they showed me their cell phones and they had like puppy images on the on the front p on the home screen and they use Adobe Firefly to generate these images. And I'm like, how the hell did you find Adobe Firefly? Oh, everybody in school is using it. And I think that's the AI native generation, those that are growing up now with these agents. For them, it will be just so natural to use an agent instead of going to, you know, a Google search or I mean trying to find it to do the the traditional way. And I think if we're all honest to ourselves, there's a lot of sorry out there of how all dayto-day is a native and I'm using agents for everything. I'm a startup founder. Most of the time I'm still dealing with HR systems and my my month and close and getting, you know, uh, directors of board insurance and that's a form that I have to fill out. No agent helps me with any of that. And if you hear that in podcast, I'm like, "Sure, sure, sure." You know, like in theory that is my life. But in reality, yesterday we announced my company. Since then, I got like hundreds of emails from investors that want to absolutely still angel invest into the seat round. People that have 12 years of experience are the best developers, you know, on the planet, yet they're sending me an email to to apply for a job. And and I'm I'm looking for the agent that solves all that for me instead of just trying to figure out how can I be both nice human to give them response, but also let them know that I'm not interested in, you know, that conversation right now because I want to build a company. So I think that's the like the the crux of AI native teams today in a software development. Yes, we're going to use cloud code or or some agent to build code, but no, we're not going to feed Markdown files into that. Like 3,000 software engineers all collaborating on markdown, that is a nightmare, right? If you have then folks in Germany, you know, that speak English with an accent or in Spain or in India and China and whatnot that don't actually are as fluent in English, it's actually an even worse nightmare because programming language is great. It reduces vocabulary on like 20 words that everybody can speak. As soon as you have to describe a feature in a language that you don't actually think in, it's really really hard. And I think we haven't figured any of that out.

Gerge: And how are your teams today using tools? How have their workflows changed?

Thomas: I think the biggest change in the workflow is that you basically most developers that start Greenfield from scratch today and and have used cloud code is that they force themselves to not look at the code. And that basically it starts with...

Gerge: That that's happening at your teams right?

Thomas: That's happening. I think that's happening everywhere in the industry like in all the people I'm interviewing whether they work at Microsoft GitHub or Atlassian or ThoughtWorks or or Block or so.

Gerge: Easy with the poaching there.

Thomas: Well, I'm all coming to me, you know.

Gerge: But all Thomas, yeah.

Thomas: Well, you know, a third about a third of the our team of my startup entire is Australian because one of the co-founders is actually went to high school with me in East Berlin and then immigrated to Australia. And so the Australian press didn't let that opportunity go to a little bit on Atlassian yesterday when the announcement came because your stock price is down and whatnot has nothing to do with us. But of course, you know, that's not how the press works.

Gerge: It's all the sad stuff, you know.

Thomas: Yeah. Anyway, where was I? Developers that want to be AI native, what they're doing is try to look at little as code as possible and force yourselves to figure it out with a prompt and a reasoning process and and voicing intent, right? And then same way with code review ideally, you know, I never read the code line by line because that's going to become increasing bottleneck. I have like Cursor Composer or or one of these tools point out the mistakes to me and I'm waiting for the moment and I think a previous session alluded to this that let's just have the code review bot or agent work with the coding agent. Why would you need the human in the middle of that? And I think that's where that the what the the most AI native developers are right now is the ones that have figured out how to do that and that is a skill in itself and that's I think answering the question are we going to replace humans with agents? No, we are upleveling the humans to become the the masters of these of these agents. Yeah.

Rajie: And on tools I think like there's two parts to it right. Is that coding and implementation is becoming free to the point where the bottleneck is shifting to what I call the left of code and the right of code on the left of code it's about planning and specking and there increasingly one of the tools we are using in Atlassian a lot is Confluence because Confluence is where the intent and the spec and yes it's mostly English language and Thomas makes a good point about language but that's where you are putting in really what you want to build especially for product oriented engineers they're going in and putting in a lot of comments and our agents are able to read the comments and go off in a Ralph loop and you know solve things which is really amazing. But yeah, left of code and then right of code it's the standard stuff CI/CD deployment incidents sees how do you find that out so using agents to do that is is what we're doing so I'd say we are looking at it holistically across the entire software development life cycle we call it the AI native SDLC all the way from ideation to coding to like deployment in production we we are changing the tool set quite a bit.

Gerge: Okay, what about RoboDev? Tell me what RoboDev is.

Rajie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So RoboDev is a coding agent but it's also our brand for like doing things across the entire SDLC. So we using it for code reviews, we're using it for CI/CD, we are using it for incident resolution.

Gerge: So you built your own coding agent.

Rajie: Yes. Now here interesting thing is we are using Anthropic's model. But in the benchmark we actually beat PlotCode. Which is sounds amazing. How does how do you do that using their model? Well, it comes down to one magic word which is context. Agents are as smart as the context you give. And in Atlassian we have built what is called the teamwork graph which is you know who does Thomas work with on which PR on which issue in Jira and that context really helps Rob do a much better job with the PR it produces.

Gerge: What is happening with distributed teams? Thomas, you mentioned that your team is spread across a bunch of different time zones which is super unusual for a early stage startup usually the conventional wisdom is like be in the same office you're going to be riffing at the each. Why did you decide to go distributed and does AI have to do anything with this?

Thomas: First of all, I want to say, I'm a strong believer of everybody needs to find their own happiness, right? And there's just similar to the relationship that you have in your personal life, it's same with the relationship you have with your company. There is not one perfect approach. And if you want to work in a company that has a beautiful office in San Francisco, great. You want to work in a hybrid scenario, also great. And I love working in remote teams because I love traveling. I love the 247 coverage if you have people in Australia, in Germany, in Spain, in Lisbon and UK, whatever in in in United States in the different time zones. And that makes my life happy and doesn't mean that anybody else is wrong in in how they're running the company. What it does though is if you have a remote team is that you're lonely, right? And lonely in might be in the kind of like co alone at home sense, but also in the who is available for me to ask the question. And it's much easier to do that in an office environment because you can kind of figure out well Gerley is only surfing on X and and and posting and whatnot and so I can ask him a question and never never and and in the same time if you're busy in a conversation with Rajie then obviously I won't run into the conference room and ask you hey can you do this code review for me and I think agents basically gave us these bearings partners these experts that I can just ask and say hey I want to brainstorm on this topic I need to write an ADR or like solve a problem. I was over the weekend preparing a launch. So, I figured out I need not only a terms of service and a privacy policy, I also need a cookie policy. So, I was trying to figure out how do I do that in the React app and I just asked Cursor Composer to do that for me and it was done in 3 seconds, right? And I think that's the the remote work with the help of agent has gotten a new level that wasn't possible before because I have always somebody available my code review agent my coding agent know my brainstorming agent my research agents all these kind of things and then I and I think that's for us the huge benefit especially if you have these launch days right if you everybody in the same time zone in the same office at some point you need to go home like that's just the reality if you have folks in Australia by the time it's 6 p.m. here it's like noon or something in Melbourne and so they're still working and maintaining you know the engagement on Discord and and the open source project. I think in some ways you know agents have gotten as an advantage again you know for being remote first and that you know other teams that work in the office together you know have on on their side when when they can brainstorm in front of whiteboard. It evened out a little bit of the competitive disadvantage that certainly has evolved here in San Francisco as most of the AI native companies have gotten back into office.

Rajie: Yeah. Well, we have we are actually Atlassian has been leaning into distributed teams way before like even before COVID. So when actually co happened it was super natural for us to to be in that kind of situation. Our software naturally is for collaboration across distributed teams that we're not remote. We have offices. We have offices in San Francisco, in Sydney, in in different parts of the world. So we do believe in like that intentional togetherness you get when human beings come together and and work together. So we're not like a remote only, remote first kind of company. But we don't mandate you coming into the office. We like you can work from anywhere. We call it team anywhere. You can work from anywhere. You can work with people. And to Thomas's point, I think agents have changed things a lot. Like I remember the days when I was in the office at 2 a.m. writing code and you get stuck and all you can do is like read the code and read the code more until you understand it and figure it out. Well now you can ask an agent and the agent can explain it for you or even better do the code for you. So I think with agents it's gotten even better and easier for us to be able to be distributed in this in this fashion.

Gerge: And you know like a big thing that we're all seeing you're seeing it as well the role of software engineer changing and the role of the engineing leader the engineing manager changing from your vantage point what are you seeing happening so far what do you expect and especially looking at Atlassian are are you are you doing any change in in terms of like defining the role or thinking about or relaxing some of the things that you've kind of had had in place before? Yeah, we we think about it in terms of like uh what changes with respect to ownership, accountability, things like that, right?

Rajie: Yeah, we we think about it in terms of like what changes with respect to ownership, accountability, things like that, right? And what we're finding is it's less about code ownership. It's more about like now the artifacts are shifting to things like Confluence and Jira and even Loom. We have a lot of interaction through a product we acquired called Loom that's now partian product and you can express a lot more intent and thoughts and video and so feeding that into our AI agents and using that to produce better artifacts. The ownership is shifting towards that and then the accountability part is increasing as well instead of like a lot of code reviews and trying to understand whether the code is good which you still have to do but the agents help you it's about verification right what are the guardrails what are the inputs and outputs that you want to verify that so that you know that the AI code is good and that the agents have done a good job that's where the ownership and accountability is shifting and so that's that's how we are thinking about it but in terms of team structures and managers and PMs and designers and engineers we aren't thinking we're not doing like radical changes yet. What we are focusing on is that team structure, that team that's producing the feature. How can they do more? How can they be more creative? We're not going down the path of saying, "Oh, let's do it, you know, with fewer people necessarily." That's not the biggest thing. In some cases, we do find 10x even 100x more productivity and we then reshape the team for that. But our angle is more how do you unleash more creativity and how do you do more?

Gerge: Can you tell me a tiny bit more when you say like you see more productivity team and you reshape the team for that? What could that mean or what does that mean?

Rajie: Well, we've tried some projects where we are like, hey, what if we didn't write any code manually? Like what does that look like? Right? And that forces you to think differently. That forces you to organize a repo differently. That forces you to set up the rules for the agents differently. The agents don't have enough context. When you have a repo with full of code, it can start off in a better place. And so that forces you to sort of really be AI native AI first. And we're finding that in those cases, we make a lot of progress. You can get real good productivity. But if you have a legacy codebase that has been around for a long time, it's not as easy, right? We find that, you know, it takes a lot more effort and things like that. And so we have done a lot of progress with RoboDev, but it's not yet at the point where you can give it like a complex project on a legacy codebase. And I think that's a hard problem that a lot of people are working on. I think we'll get there very soon, but that's an area where you can't go and and be as aggressive.

Thomas: Yeah. I have two angles on this. I think one is, you know, we we're constantly in this problem that we have way too many ideas in life and way too many things to do. You know, one of my jokes is that when you're single, your Saturday morning is great. You have all the plans for the weekend. When you're married with kids, all the plans that you had on Saturday morning didn't happen by Sunday night because your family determined what you're actually doing over the weekend. And the same is true in software projects. And the way we're solving this is we're writing things down in to-do lists and we're moving them into linear backlogs. And your backlog gets longer and longer and somebody just throw it all away and start fresh and bring up the same ideas again. And what we're now doing with agents, we're shifting this one step to the right where we just feed all of that into agents and agents write all the code and now you have your backlog and your pull requests. And there's the bottleneck now because you can't review all of that. And then are going to be agents that review all that code and auto merge and auto deploy it. And what you get is the Homer Simpsons car, right? Because all the ideas you had, without without any process and any creativity and and and product management and whatnot leads to products that have lots of features that look like Homer Simpson. I don't everybody has that picture in your head. The the flip side of that is, you know, that and then obviously we need to so that we still need product managers and designers and engineers to actually architect products that are really great. And every time you're using a product that's not great, you know, exactly that that's the case, right? Like that's it's easier for us to find something bad than finding something good. At the same time, I think we're seeing going to see a massive role collapse between the traditional engineering roles, right? You're not the pragmatic product product manager and the product designer, but I actually think the product manager is becoming a product engineer and the designer is becoming a design engineer and the software engineer stays a software engineer. And so the ven diagram of these roles is overlapping much more. I think it was this morning's session or maybe it was the off the record session yesterday, but we're seeing a lot of that where product managers in companies are now forced to as an as an expectation of their job to use a coding agent to build a prototype instead of just writing a document and handing it off. Now that's the obvious part of this, but it's also true for your marketer, for your coms people, for your assistant. All those folks are already using Lovable or Rippl.it or any of these tools to actually automate part of their life. And then the question becomes is it the bad cop like in the I think it was in the Phoenix project that blocks everybody from deploying or do we find ways in the organizations to actually let everybody be a builder and and contribute to back to what ultimately is the goal of every organization which is as a team together we are much more powerful than as individuals right that's the Dutch trading company philosophy if if you go back where companies come from and we have to find these processes and I think that's the thing that we haven't really figured out of how in a secure way and trustworthy A we can ship amazing products, you know, by moving much faster through the life cycle while at the same time empowering everybody in the company to to do so.

Gerge: And we we've talked about this is the engineer role and of course like how the designers and and product managers are getting closer. What about the engineering leader? You know, you you've got a lot of outstanding engineering leaders inside at Lash and how do you see their roles changing and you know Thomas like as you're going to be hiring, who would you hire for? Like before you would have obviously hired for every 10 engineers like an engine manager or something like that. How how will that change for you? So I'll I'll start off with you Rajie.

Rajie: Yeah, I think one of the most exciting things for engineering leaders including myself is we can write more code now. Like I love writing code. I over the holidays bought a laptop and because sometimes you can't install things because of it but like I bought my own personal laptop at the Apple Store installed cloud code and you know built an app bunch of Python scripts and things like that. And and you know for someone who has grown up writing code for my bar for my own code is super high like as it is for all my engineers and so like for me to take a time out to go and build a whole new feature it it's it's a lot of time in the old traditional way but now I can do it much faster with RoboDev with with agents and things like that and it's always satisfying to go join a hackathon build something and write code and so for all the leaders I think it's like you know you can get a lot more connected because sometimes as a leader you go up the chain and then you get more disconnected from code and engineers and now I think that is that gap is shrinking. The other thing that's interesting that's happening is the span of control is changing. I've always advocated for you know the the degenerate case of where you have a team of 400 engineers. You take the square root of 400 and you have essentially 20 direct reports each having 20 direct reports and then it's just two layers of management. But usually most most organizations have people who have like five or three reports that most degenerate cases the binary tree right two reports two reports two reports all the way down. But I think the span of controls will increase. I think Tibo I think talked about having 33 direct reports. You know Jensen talks about...

Gerge: 33. Yeah.

Rajie: Yeah. Yeah. Having like 40 or 50. Yeah. I think like people will have more direct reports and fewer managers and managers will be more connected with the quotes. I think all of this is really a good thing.

Gerge: As a followup, what about the traditional career path? Traditional oh my gosh I'm talking like you know like pre like 2020 2022 because we were used to there was a career path like be a you know software engineer senior engineer then either staff engineer engine manager senior engine manager director senior director etc. What do you think might happen just in taking educated guess?

Rajie: Well, first of all, you know, anytime somebody asks me about career path as an engineer, but the first thing I tell people is don't be a manager. Okay. In fact, I did that myself when I started out. Somebody gave me that advice. And so the for the first many years of my career, I avoided being a manager as far as I could until I found decisions being made that I didn't understand. And so then I popped my head up to see okay what the hell is happening and that sort of thing and then joined the dark side. But like, you know...

Gerge: Worked out pretty good in the end.

Rajie: Yeah. Yeah. But I'd say like you know for for engineers like I mean it's it's it's a great time to be alive. Like I would just write code, use agents, figure this out, do all the advanced, you know, cutting edge stuff for a while. I mean we don't know where the future is going but like you'll be fine if you're an engineer writing code. Managers and leaders, it's a little tougher. I think there might be fewer of them. I think it's exciting if you are want to be hands-on that it's amazing. I think there's less of like leadership management blah blah blah. It's more of like doing and like figuring things out in this new world. And those who do I think will do well. Those who want to like stick to the old career paths might have to find something else.

Thomas: I have three things. One, number one, for all the startup founders. Every time an investor asks you how they're preventing the incumbent doing the same thing that you're doing, just tell them that the CTO of Atlassian had to buy a laptop on his own money to start coding. That's the best answer I can give because it shows you how even, you know, relatively agile companies that actually develop agile tools, you know, can't really do what you can do in 5 minutes.

Rajie: I'll fix it. I'll fix it once I acquire your company, Thomas.

Thomas: Um, I I'll fix it. I'll fix it once I acquire your company, Thomas. Oh, you can you can get their assets. You can get their assets and use them for coding. Number two is I think what happened in the last two years through coding agents like C-pilot, Kursa and Devon is that many CTOs and CIOs even in the largest banks in this country and many other countries have realized they can go back to coding because it no longer takes hours to install all the packages and figure out all the problems. And so I actually I have friends in that in that space that told me stories of like on every night they would give Devon a task and and say Devon built me this and then on the morning would check the check in with the developer at the agent and then keep going that way and then they have their normal day-to-day as a as a CTO of a big bank and you do that for two weeks and you realize everything is going to change and has to change in my organization and in contrast to the Twilio founders ask your developer where the developer decides bottoms up what the tools are. Those folks went into the into their organization says I don't want to hear any excuses. We're going to roll out agents and you know many banks still are on very archive systems and they have developers like to Citrix and and what have you and often the CTO was not empowered to override this because of CISO concerns and and what have you. And I think that has dramatically changed because basic gets our hands dirty again and realize how powerful this technology is. And that shift is happening. You see this everywhere like no other software development technology has been adopted as fast as agents right like most German companies you know Japanese companies other international are still not in the cloud because of all the kinds of concerns that they heard from the legal team security teams and whatnot and then there's the third piece you know when you ask about leadership and manager you know when I became a manager the first time I became really manager was when I my startup got acquired by Microsoft because CEO of a 10 person startup you're not actually a manager you're just one of 10 and you're the speaker and it has to do payroll and and and pitch to customers and I became a manager and I realized, oh god, now I have to hire people, which means I have to write a job description and do interviews and I have to write performance reviews. You know, when CHPT came out, all of a sudden we just would ask Chet PT to write the performance review for us and of course the employees did the same on their site and if you have worked at Microsoft every like the employee has to fill out like I think seven input fields on their side and then the manager has to react to those seven input fields. And if you're a lazy developer manager, you write I agree with you and the employee is not happy about that.

Gerge: Hang on.

Thomas: And so you kind of hack that system by just asking Chatty which then in reverse is then give me just the bullets that you put into Chat GBT. So at least I know how you're prompting.

Gerge: So you became the CEO of GitHub with this mentality.

Thomas: You know that God does GitHub. You know the the the key pragma if you will or dogma. By the way, we are joking in the green room. I think the next one is the dogmatic summit and so we have all the dogmas on stage is much more entertaining I think. Is developers first right developers first is what what we always said at GitHub for everything we design for every process for the marketing and when we fail you can see that a Hacker News is very very straight right like when a GitHub blog post or GitHub tweet or a message is too corporate, quote unquote. Developers won't like that and they don't want to have that. Give me the truth, give me the direct conversation, don't give me all the marketing bull. That works for other products, but it doesn't work for developer tools, right? And I think the same is true for being a people manager, an engineering manager of a team, like your team knows exactly whether you're talking straight to them and giving them the truth or whether you're sugar coating that they're actually not doing so well and you're kind of like trying to tell give them the message that you either improve or or you get the out, right? And and and I think this is where you know the AI is changing this because this I'm spending an hour of writing a a pified you know summary of a performance of course the engineer just feeds that into chatbt backwards and says what did Thomas actually mean and did he use AI to write this and all of that and I think this is this is a good thing like you know when we when we think about um AIdriven sales processes hell I don't want an AI email from a sales agent to sell me some outsource ing company or something like that. Just I want an AI that deletes all that and tells them to never contact me again, right? And I think the same is true like for people management. It's so much more it's so much more enjoyable when you have a relationship with your pe with your with your team members, your IC's that's on on an honest trustworthy basis like you hopefully have you know with your spouse at home and and your kids and whatnot. And I think that is going to shift because you can no longer cheat your way as a people manager into being the nicest manager of everybody while in reality you you're having you're struggling with all the problems in your team.

Gerge: I mean you heard it from the former the last CEO of GitHub you know management might actually become like a bit more enjoyable. Thanks for that. Looking at your current teams now, what is the biggest change that's already happened in in how you're working and what do you expect to happen this coming year?

Rajie: Yeah, I I mean like clearly the biggest change is agentic coding and using agents to do stuff like in Atlassian RoboDev is used by all our engineers.

Gerge: All the engineers.

Rajie: Yes. Yes.

Gerge: Nice.

Rajie: Yes. Code reviews. I mean every day I see the percentage of diffs that are through code reviews are increasing quite a bit. PRs per engineer have gone up 89%. Issue cycle time has got has gone down 42%. 51% of security vulnerabilities are now cut through agents. So we're seeing like massive change in in our productivity output metrics the Dora metrics all of that is going up you know going well up meaning well because of agent encoding and that sort of thing. And more than the metrics I'd say like we are we are really excited about how we are working across PM design and engineering because we build a lot of products like Jira Confluence and so that that loop is very important for us and we are finding that because PMs are using like Replit and things like that they're producing actually better specs that are much more amenable to being close to the product that we want easier for engineers to go implement and so definitely seeing a lot of change. What will happen in the future I think is this notion of building products with actually zero lines of code manual coding I would say because today it's a mix of like some manual coding some agents. I think we will get to the point where we just trust the code reviews done by the agents and not have to have too much human review over that. I think we move towards more verification of inputs and outputs to see the system performing according to the right security reliability performance bars less about inspection of code and And then if I were to look out I know that TB didn't want to look out two years but if I look out two years plus maybe we don't have programming languages and IDEs anymore and we have some kind of AI JVM or something that just sort of does things and because like if you think about it programming languages are there because like you know we don't want to write assembly and we need something to tell the computer what to do but like if AI is able to do that and you know you're able to debug using AI as well then it shifts to a higher level intent and you don't need maybe programming. Now that's super extreme. I don't know if it'll go there, but it is conceivable and so that's really exciting to think about what that word would look like.

Thomas: From the CEO perspective, I think there's two drastic changes. One is costs are through the roof. And as everybody who manages a larger team has some fixed opex budget that is mostly your salaries, your benefits and then some travel and expenses, right? All of a sudden, we have flexible token costs. And the more productive you you had all this impressive statistics, the more productive your developers are, the more your costs are going through the roof and you actually create an inversion where you have to slow down some developers because they're burning so many tokens and then they're like, "Well, then I will build less features, right?" And that's something that a startup founder only deals with when when the money runs out, the run rate gets shorter. But a a big manager in a in a corporation will actually have to figure out with their with their finance team, right? What the traditional approach to this will no longer work. And you actually want to encourage teams to burn more tokens. And you talked in a very early session this morning about OpenAI's billions tokens and they don't have to pay for them. Obviously, that's not true. They're paying for the GPUs to to Azure and Oracle and and whatnot. But that's I think a drastic change to how we're managing teams. That all of a sudden you had and look what nobody wants to do is fire people to offset the cost of the tokens, right? Because the the human cost of that is is way higher than the benefits. I think the very positive version of that is coding is fun again. And I, you know, I learned coding on a Commodore 64 in the early 1990s and then I had a 3860x40 with a turbo switch and a pensium and whatnot. And I remember the days when I couldn't solve any of my problems because all I had was books and computer club was only Wednesdays and you were just stuck, right? And you went to bed frustrated and and and then in the morning hopefully you had some, you know, intuition of how to solve that problem. Came the internet, came forums, all of a sudden you could talk to people. Now you can just in 3 seconds, you know, ask the agents to figure it out. And I think, you know, we're underestimating the power of these agents because we all think about code generation. I think the best scenario is actually have some stupid build error or npm error or something on the terminal and just feed that into Codex and say, "Hey, go and solve this. I don't want to deal with any of that." Right? I think that's it's way more fun than it ever was. Same for unit testing. Raise your hand if you love wring unit tests. Right? Like, oh, that's the one. Um uh...

Gerge: I'm I'm I'm looking for Ken Back.

Thomas: No, the the exception to the rule, right? But like that that's so powerful to just say write write me unit tests and and or or fix the tests and and and what have you. Coding is fun again and it brings us back to when we learned coding. I think what agents have done is it bring us back to the joy of coding and I was at OpenAI a month ago or so and they showed a couple of builders the new Codex Mac app and made sure we're all in the NDA but now the app is out so I can talk about it and was a bit you know food and and presentation and then we all had some coding time and I built three native Mac apps like in Swift UI without ever looking at the code right and and that's just and I had a menu by app and somebody was yesterday on X saying I love building menu by apps on on Mac, right? And it's so easy. And if you ever tried that yourself in in going on, you know, GitHub, Google, Stack Overflow, whatever, have it even setting up just the Xcode project to hide the doc icon and have it only in the menu bar, you you have given up and and the idea has, you know, flown away by the time you actually had the first build running. And I think that's just so incredible. And whether that applies to all our hobby projects, but ultimately got us into this profession, hopefully. Whether or it's you know doing work at Atlassian or at ENTIA or GitHub. I think that's what what is so amazing about this and that is the actual drastic and the productivity is great you know for the CFO and the CEO and the and and and then the the stock public stock markets but what really matters to us is our job is fun again.

Gerge: 100%. And I I I love that. So thank you so much Rajie and Tomas and especially for that nice ending. This was great. Thank you. Let's give a round of applause to them.