Suleika Jaouad: One thing that's very important for me is that the journal be a place where you abandon any sense of judgment. It can be sentence fragments. It can be lists. It can be doodles. There's no right or wrong way to do it. I rarely go back and read my journals because I don't want to ignite that pilot light of self-consciousness. It's really a place where you come as you are.

Christine Sir Cleette: I'm Christine Sir Cleette.

Kyra Blackwell: I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Rosie Garren: I'm Rosie Garren. And you're listening to the Wire Cutter Show.

Rosie Garren: Hey everybody, it's Rosie. It's almost the new year. We're counting down to 2026. And I usually find myself at the end of the year in a bit of a reflective mood, thinking back on what I accomplished, what I didn't manage to get done, habits I'd like to pick up in the next year, things I would like to leave behind. Earlier this year, we recorded a conversation with the author of The Book of Alchemy. Her name is Sulea Jiad. It's a wonderful conversation full of inspirational stories and practical advice about how to nurture your own creativity and how journaling specifically can support you in doing that. We thought it would be a great episode to share with you again right now. We hope you enjoy it and happy new year.

Christine Sir Cleette: Hi guys. Hey there. So, we're doing something a little different.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah. I mean, I've worked here a long time and we have a lot of coverage on the site that is really supportive of a creative practice, right? So, we have reviews for musical instruments, for things that can help you become a better cook, art supplies. You obviously don't need to buy gear or new things to be creative. Anyone can be creative, watch kids, they'll play around with sticks out in the mud and they're very creative. But I do think that if you are approaching a creative practice and you really get into it, having the right tools can it's the right tool for the right job, right? So I think there are some real benefits to having that.

Christine Sir Cleette: So whether you find joy in making elaborate meals or working on a novel, playing music, we're going to talk about strategy for unlocking creativity today. And our guest is Sulea Jad. She's an artist. She's a journalist. She's an author. She writes the Substack called The Isolation Journals. And her most recent book is called The Book of Alchemy. And it explores how journaling can help unlock your creative potential. This is going to be a really, really special conversation.

Kyra Blackwell: Oh, yeah. And if you're a New York Times reader, you might recognize Sulea from the column she used to write. It was a little over a decade ago. called Life Interrupted, which basically documented her experience with cancer in her early 20s. She also wrote a New York Times bestseller about this experience called Between Two Kingdoms. We're going to take a quick break and on the other side, the two of you are going to talk with Sulea about how journaling can unlock creativity. And then a little bit later, you're talking with Ariana Vasquez about some unexpected journaling tools. And I'll catch up with you at the end.

Rosie Garren: Welcome back. With us now is Sulea Jad. She writes the popular Substack, The Isolation Journals, and her most recent book is called The Book of Alchemy: A Creative Practice for an Inspired Life. Today, we're digging into how journaling can really help you become more creative. Sulea, welcome to the show.

Suleika Jaouad: Thanks for having me on.

Christine Sir Cleette: We are so pumped to have you here. For listeners who aren't familiar with your story, can you tell us a little bit about how you started journaling as a daily practice?

Suleika Jaouad: So, I have been journaling from the time I was old enough to hold a pen. As the kid of two immigrants who showed up on the first day of kindergarten not speaking a word of English, I felt a palpable sense of being a misfit. What was so appealing about the journal as a kid is that it was a space where I could fully show up as I was. It wasn't beautiful writing. It wasn't even grammatical writing. It was a place to put all of the thoughts and feelings swirling around in my head that I felt I couldn't really share out loud. And so the journal for me really felt like a refuge. But it wasn't until I got sick at 22 and was diagnosed with leukemia that the journal really became a kind of lifeline. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that journaling saved my life. It was a container where I could write through whatever was happening and use it in whatever way I wanted as a kind of reporter's notebook on some days where I'd record overheard gossip between the nurses. A place where I could vent, a place where I could talk about the things that I couldn't say out loud. My fears around my illness and my prognosis. emotions that felt somehow unsavory like envy and watching my friends on Instagram traveling and starting their jobs and going to parties and all the other big and small milestones of young adulthood at a time where I felt profoundly stuck. It's just really interesting because usually when people hear journaling, they think it's childish, they think of the little notebook with the lock and the little hearts dotting the eyes.

Christine Sir Cleette: The way that you mentioned in your book, like there's scientific research that shows that journaling can have a real impact on your on on mental health and the benefit of it. So, can you just kind of talk a little bit about that?

Suleika Jaouad: Yeah, the history of journaling is a fascinating one. People have been looking to the journal since the beginning of time to record historical events, to record personal events, and there is evidence that shows the benefits of journaling. Everything from reducing anxiety and stress to even improving your immune system. But I know anecdotally, both in the context of my own life and a substack I write called the isolation journals, the very real and dare I say transformational impacts of the journal on one's life.

Christine Sir Cleette: And that's why your your Substack is so popular is because people really felt a connection to you and and what you were doing, right?

Suleika Jaouad: Yeah, I started it in the early days of the pandemic and the idea was to share this approach to journaling that I had cultivated when I was sick in the form of a 100 day project, one journal entry a day with a short passage and prompt for inspiration with a larger community because so much of what we were struggling with in those early days of lockdown felt familiar to me as someone who'd had to be in medical isolation, who couldn't leave my house. And to my great surprise, by the end of that first month, we had over a 100,000 people from all around the world of all ages, not only journaling individually, but also sharing those journal entries with one another. And what was so interesting about that project was that journaling didn't always look the way my journaling did. I am someone who keeps a kind of traditional journal or has for much of my life, a notebook and a pen. But one of the very first women we heard from during the early days of that project was a mother from Minnesota who'd lost her 13-year-old daughter. And she decided that for her 100day journaling project, she was going to use her daughter's old art supplies and make a visual journal entry every day of a memory with her daughter. And it became a kind of grief journal for her. And what she said that moved me so much was that it was the first time that alongside the immense indescribable pain of losing your child she for the first time was also able to access the joy of remembering her of being able to commune with her in this kind of creative way that is so beautiful.

Christine Sir Cleette: The isolation journals. This project, this 100 day project at the beginning of the pandemic, this is sort of the the genesis of your new book. For listeners who maybe aren't familiar with the book, it is filled with these awesome essays from some very very famous writers. You've got people like Gloria Steinum, George Saunders, you have Salman Rushi, but you also have people that are not famous who have contributed essays to this book. And then there are also writing prompts. So, can you tell us a little bit about how the book developed from that project?

Suleika Jaouad: Despite being a person who is primed to enjoy journaling, I think like a lot of people who've attempted to journal, there are moments where I either fall off because I'm tired of repeating the same old things and I feel like I'm stuck in my life and therefore I get stuck in my journal entries or other times where I don't journal and it's usually when I need to journal most and that's because there's something that feels too tender to look at. It's a little too hot to touch. And so I've tried every kind of journaling over the years. But what I arrived at with isolation journals was this notion of being prompted. And I am not someone who typically, if someone had instructed me to write to a prompt, thought I would have enjoyed that. It would have probably felt like homework to me and a little too directive. But the experience of reading a short essay, of reading a prompt has a kind of kaleidoscopic effect of sort of twisting the chamber and the light falls differently. And sometimes I love the prompt and it immediately sparks an idea. Sometimes I hate the prompt and that's interesting in and of itself and I write about that. Sometimes I ignore the prompt altogether, but there's one sentence I read in the essay that moves me. And so the isolation journals has continued. It's now a weekly newsletter. But in the course of running the isolation journals, I've gotten the privilege of gathering these incredible essays and prompts from the most creative people I know. And when I say creative, I say that very broadly because yes, there are the George Saunders, etc. of the world. But many of the contributors in this book are not people who you would typically think of as creative. Our youngest contributor was six years old at the time, two-time brain cancer survivor named L. Sullivan. We have a man who writes an essay and prompt who's days away from execution in solitary confinement in Texas. We have a beautiful prompt from a young mother who is about to become widowed, whose husband is sick and is anticipating a new beginning. It's such a wide range of people who to me embody that spirit of creative alchemy.

Christine Sir Cleette: I want to talk a little bit about something that you talk about in this new book, how the act of journaling has this ability to heal creative wounds. Can you talk a little bit about that and maybe some specific examples that you've seen maybe in the people that are involved in in the isolation journal community or who've just responded to you personally?

Suleika Jaouad: Yeah. So, my husband to me is John who I met at band camp when I was 13. But now to the rest of the world he is John Batiste who yeah I'm obviously biased as a brilliant musician. I I think there's no dispute that he is a brilliant genius musical genius and and and brilliant person full stop and I dedicated this book to him because in some ways I think he was my first teacher in the idea of creative alchemy. He's also one of the contributors in the book. But when I was 22 years old and I found myself here in New York City stuck in a hospital room for about 2 months, John, who was an old friend from band camp, learned that I was sick and he ended up showing up with his entire band unprompted unannounced at my hospital room door. And right there in my hospital room, he and his band began to play. And as the sound of the tuba and the melodica and the saxophone filtered out into the hallway, patients and doctors and nurses started to poke their heads out and to come around my room in curiosity. And everyone began to clap their hands and to dance and sing. Now oncology wards are not joyous places. I think it's safe to say they're typically musicless places, but in the place of the beeping IV poles and the wheezing of monitors, John transformed what was an incredibly grim and difficult day into the most joyous of second lines. And I think witnessing that led me to start to think about how I might enact my own experiences of creative alchemy. And for me, that's always taken place in the journal. And so I've gotten to witness so many people doing that in their own ways. One of my favorite early community members of the isolation journals is a man named Charlie Greenman who was in his 80s. He had never journaled before, didn't really think it was for him, and has become one of our most ardent, active members of the community, and he loves journaling. He says that the way he described it, he said, "It feels like an adventure, and I have no idea where it's going, but the best thing is I don't need to know."

Christine Sir Cleette: You're also a really creative person in other ways, too. You paint. You have other creative practices. Do you find that journaling kind of speaks to those other creative practices? You know, like I find for instance, if I meditate in the morning, I tend to have a better, calmer day and everything seems to connect a little bit better. Do you have a similar experience when you journal?

Suleika Jaouad: Absolutely. I feel like I am made of chaos until I put pen to paper. I'm someone who doesn't quite know what I'm feeling or how to even begin to entangle my thoughts until I start to write them down. And one thing that's very important for me is that the journal be a place where you abandon any sense of judgment. Can be sentence fragments. It can be lists. It can be doodles. There's no right or wrong way to do it. I rarely go back and read my journals because I don't want to ignite that pilot light of self-consciousness. It's really a place where you come as you are. Whatever comes out is great. I do it for as long as I want or for 30 seconds if that's all I have as long as I do it consistently. And I do think that it has informed every aspect of both my creative work and my life. I 3 years ago found out that the leukemia was back, was going to have another bone marrow transplant, went into the hospital and I was like, I've got this. I brought like six journals. I had my medical journal, my reporter's notebook. I had my personal journal and my vision was temporarily impaired for a couple of weeks and I wasn't able to journal and so I started keeping a visual journal. I'm not a trained painter and started using watercolor and I have become obsessed with painting. It is a whole new creative language that I certainly would never have stumbled across without the act of keeping a journal. And I think that to me is what keeps it endlessly enlivening and interesting is the ability to write without any goal or outcome in mind where you get to follow the thread of your intuition without knowing where it's going to lead. And that kind of stream of consciousness to me is so important in getting to the truth beneath the truth beneath the truth. And just taking a small moment to take a deep breath to sit down and to write my way back to myself.

Christine Sir Cleette: I feel like a lot of people will read your book or hear your story, listen to this podcast and feel inspired and then there's so much freedom that you can do whatever you want and that's awesome but sometimes it could also be a little bit daunting. You know, just the idea of you could do anything you want but like where do you start and how do you keep going? Do you have any advice to help people who want to start this continue doing it consistently?

Suleika Jaouad: Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the hardest things because lots of people buy a journal.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah.

Suleika Jaouad: Fill out the first couple of pages,

Rosie Garren: leave the rest blank.

Christine Sir Cleette: Guilty as charged,

Suleika Jaouad: then buy another journal because that one's ruined.

Christine Sir Cleette: It's the aesthetic

Suleika Jaouad: contain the evidence of your failure to commit. So, for me, what's always helped is some kind of accountability. I love the 100 day container and the book is designed as a kind of 100 day project with a 100 essays and prompts but maybe start with 10, maybe start with 30 and some things to prompt you because I don't know about you but the blank page immediately summons all of the questions certainly the big question of what is it do I that I possibly have to say? And so just having a a little directive that might push your train of thought in a unexpected or new direction I find to be useful. And whatever comes up is great. If it's your grocery list, wonderful. If it it is a petty grievance, fabulous. You're no longer carrying that around in your body. You've externalized it onto the page.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah.

Rosie Garren: Yeah.

Christine Sir Cleette: We're going to take a quick break and when we're back, we're going to talk brass tax of journaling. Sulea, we're going to talk about your favorite tools for journaling and then after that we're going to bring on one of our colleagues, Ariana Vasquez, to talk about some unexpected digital tools that we've reviewed and recommended. We'll be right back.

Rosie Garren: Welcome back. We're here with Sulea Jad, author of the book of alchemy. So earlier we talked about how adopting a journaling practice can help you unlock creativity. And now we're going to get into some of the practical details. So Sulea, because this is a wire cutter podcast, of course we have to discuss your gear. So you are a pen and paper person, right? You have to handwrite.

Suleika Jaouad: I am a pen and paper person. You do whatever works for you. I personally can't resist the backspace bar.

Rosie Garren: Oh, me too.

Suleika Jaouad: And so, in order to not self-edit, the inkier the pen, the better, I actually use a fountain pen, a lammy pen. And I like the feel of palm on paper. And I'm less likely to scratch things out or to start over.

Rosie Garren: Do you have a favorite paper that you use? Cuz if you're using a fountain pen, what what's your paper of choice? Okay. Is it like an old wrinkled like scribe?

Suleika Jaouad: Yeah, exactly. I make the paper by hand.

Rosie Garren: You match it up.

Suleika Jaouad: I have a collection of journals. I love a drugstore composition book from a country. If I'm visiting a new country, I have, you know, my look terms and my Moleskins. I'm really not precious about the actual journal itself. Right now I'm using a Luke term and I like the Luke term a lot.

Rosie Garren: They have really nice soft paper. I It's like very very the texture of the paper is really lovely.

Suleika Jaouad: They have like this acidfree ink bleed proof paper which is especially important with the with the fountain pen.

Rosie Garren: Sounds like it.

Suleika Jaouad: Yeah.

Christine Sir Cleette: Well, I actually want to get back into your ritual of journaling. Do you always do it at a specific time? Are you outside? What does your physical setup look like? How do you get into your journaling habit?

Suleika Jaouad: So, you know, we talked about accountability as something that I find to be important in order to do it consistently, but I also think folding it into a non-negotiable part of your routine is important. So, for me, perhaps the only non-negotiable part of my routine is my first cup of coffee. like nothing else is going to happen until I have that first cup of coffee. And so that's when I journal.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay.

Suleika Jaouad: Different times I would journal and the 5 minutes it took for my French press to steep and then I would keep journaling. But it's usually around my first cup of coffee. My other non-negotiable part of my routine is walking my dogs. So I'll do it when I get back from walking my dogs. But I think the most common thing I hear is I don't have time to journal. And to anyone who says that, I would suggest that they look on their phone at the number of hours they've spent on their social media app of choice. What I would say is that you make time for the things that you value.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah.

Suleika Jaouad: And that are important to you. And so, one thing I really try to do for myself is to lower the barrier to entry. I don't adhere to a page count or certainly a word count. My feeling is if I show up, even if it's a couple of sentences, that is more than enough. I'm much more interested in in the consistency of it because in the act of being consistent, especially if I'm not making it too complicated, I'm more likely to return and I'm more likely to reap the benefits of it in a way that does make me prioritize it.

Christine Sir Cleette: Is there anything else that you use in your creative practice beyond pen and paper that helps kind of support your journaling practice?

Suleika Jaouad: So, I I love ritual and I'm always designing and redesigning little rituals for myself. So, I love a candle or some incense or something. Typically, when I journal, it's curled up on the couch with my coffee with my dogs and some kind of a candle or something.

Christine Sir Cleette: Do you have a favorite candle right now?

Suleika Jaouad: Oh my gosh. Okay, you're asking my I am obsessed with Lola Labo's Santal. I'm going to get it wrong. Santal 26. It's woodsy, but it's not overpowering. It kind of reminds me of an incense that my parents burned. I think that's why I like it so much. And it's lingers for a long time. So, I love that candle. Other things that I use that kind of get me into a creative mode is watercolor. I've been keeping a visual journal in addition to a written journal and that can be a doodle. It can be one swatch of a color. I've been really excited to sort of expand my earlier definitions of journal and to see how that kind of shifts the way that that I think and the way that I then move through my day.

Suleika Jaouad: The other thing I have on my desk are stacks of the journals of some of my very favorite writers and I find that to be really inspiring.

Christine Sir Cleette: That's awesome. Do you have any particular ones that you're loving right now?

Suleika Jaouad: Well, I'll tell you the ones that I always have on my desk. Susan Zantag's

Rosie Garren: Oh, yeah.

Suleika Jaouad: journals. Virginia Wolf, Audrey Lord's The Cancer Journals. I love Freda Ko's journals because they're a kind of hybrid of writing and painting. Sylvia Pla because she's actually so delightfully funny and wicked. Yeah. I I think I'm just fascinated by how people write and think when they're not doing it with an audience in mind.

Christine Sir Cleette: Thank you so much for joining us today.

Suleika Jaouad: Thank you.

Christine Sir Cleette: So now Ariana Vasquez is in the studio with us and she is Wire Cutter's home office writer and she's here to chat about journaling tools that Wire Cutter recommends. Ariana has tried a lot of these different tools so we're really excited to chat with her. Ariana, welcome.

Ariana Vasquez: Hey, thank you. Oo, this is exciting.

Christine Sir Cleette: We actually just talked with Sulea about journaling with a paper and pen. But Wire cutter also recommends some digital tools, right, for journaling, specifically like digital notebooks. What even is this?

Ariana Vasquez: Imagine your favorite e-reader like a Kindle or a Coobo that's the size of a sheet of paper. You can write on them. You can draw notes. You can do sketching. It's a different feeling than writing on a glass like a tablet. There's a little bit more friction with the pen on the surface. It's not an LED screen. It is an e ink screen, so you get that feeling more of like a pencil or a pen on paper.

Christine Sir Cleette: And is this device storing your entries in the cloud? Are you able to access them from other devices?

Ariana Vasquez: Yeah, a lot of all of our pics have like a folder structure inside where you can organize all your notes into different things. You can have a journal and a to-do list and various things. And then sometimes with the subscription, sometimes buying the device, depending on the model you get, you can have all of that stuff uploaded to a drive, a cloud, your Google Drive or their personal online servers, whatever you need.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay, great. So Ariana, why choose an e in type of notebook over traditional pen and paper? Why do you like to journal on e- in?

Ariana Vasquez: You've got one very slender, lightweight device that has folders for your journaling, your to-dos, your big projects and plans. All of our pics have a app of sorts that has an art space so you can do your pencil sketches or your arts or do your doodles. While digital notebooks are not indestructible. If your notes are backed up to the cloud and a bottle, your water bottle opens in your bag, you haven't lost all of that the same way that you would if your notebook got wet and you didn't get a chance to like wipe everything down really quickly.

Christine Sir Cleette: Right. You brought one into the studio. Can we see?

Ariana Vasquez: Yeah. This is the remarkable, which is a pick.

Christine Sir Cleette: I like that name.

Ariana Vasquez: And yeah, it is pretty cool.

Christine Sir Cleette: Can you describe what this looks like?

Ariana Vasquez: Imagine a really thin composition notebook. like a notebook where most of the pages have been ripped out and it's maybe only like a quarter of an inch thick. And then you just it's got a lock and an unlock. And then when you unlock it, it's just a really simple user interface with all the notebooks that you have. You can hit a plus sign and open a quick sheet for example. And it's essentially like a little art space. So if you wanted to draw on it or

Christine Sir Cleette: it's got a pen attached to it the way that like an iPad would, too.

Ariana Vasquez: Yeah.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay. Okay, I'm actually really surprised at the way that this feels to write on. I'm also a pen and paper person because I'm very tactile. This does feel like it's kind of like writing on a a whiteboard with a marker, right?

Ariana Vasquez: I'm try it.

Christine Sir Cleette: This does a pretty good job.

Ariana Vasquez: Let's say I was working on a novel and I was at the beach writing my novel. I could write it all in hand and then I wouldn't have to go back and type it up. It would just like go

Christine Sir Cleette: to the magical place.

Ariana Vasquez: I mean, I've I've tried it a few times and it's pretty good. like my handwriting can put any doctor's handwriting to shame. It's real chicken scratch. But it was able to get most of my barely passable letters into like actual words that I could read, which is nice cuz my handwriting is so bad when I'm journaling, especially if I'm moving fast and like in a flow and getting things out, it gets really bad and then I go back 3 days later and I'm like, I can't tell what the heck I wrote. So, it's it's a very handy tool.

Christine Sir Cleette: Can you tell us what our picks are?

Ariana Vasquez: Yeah. So, the primary pick is a Supernote. It's the Nomad. And it's smaller, more portable. It's a little bit different writing experience than this is in that you kind of have to press through like old old tablets, but it's fantastic. And if you're someone who really likes a premium pen, the pens that you can get from Supernote are like weighty and they feel like a premium pen. This is another one of our picks. This is the Remarkable 2. And then the other pick we have is by a different brand. It's for people who don't want to necessarily use the Amazon Kindle app. It's by Coobo and it's a similar to this one that we have here, the Remarkable. It also gives you the opportunity to use other third party stuff if that's what you prefer if you don't want to use Kindle.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay, great. And what is the ballpark price of of these notepads?

Ariana Vasquez: As far as prices go, this unit here, the Remarkable 2, is 400 and they range in price from 300 to 400 and they go up from there if you want more features like color for example. So, the prices are still kind of high. Definitely way more than a notebook and a pen would be, but you're going to have this for a lot longer.

Christine Sir Cleette: Thank you, Ari. Thanks for coming.

Kyra Blackwell: That was so great. I'm very intrigued by these. I'm back.

Rosie Garren: Hello. Hey. I want to hear how it went. What did you What did you all learn about creativity?

Kyra Blackwell: So good. So good. Um well, I was just really into this conversation with Sulea. I loved so much of her advice and I am going to take something that she talked about in this episode. If you're trying to establish a habit, rolling it into a non-negotiable sort of event that you do in your day anyways. So for her it was having a cup of coffee. that's when she journals. I feel like that's a really good time for me to pair some writing as well. And then it was also great to talk with Ariana. I'm really into these digital notepads. I think I want one. Um they kind they're kind of expensive.

Rosie Garren: I'd be interested if they cut the price in half.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah. Is this something I should wait for a sale?

Rosie Garren: Maybe. Maybe. They're they're $300 to $400, so they're not cheap, but I I really like that you could also use some of them as an e-reader. So I could find that. That's really cool.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah, I could find that as a way to justify it.

Rosie Garren: A tool for the future. It It's really so futuristic. It's pretty awesome.

Kyra Blackwell: That's awesome. What about you? How How is the conversation for you?

Rosie Garren: Oh, I feel inspired. I really liked Sulea's encouragement to not set a solid goal for yourself. Just kind of go with it. Whatever makes it easiest for you so that it's a very low barrier of entry. So, you just like roll journaling into your daily routine. And I think I'm also going to get a fountain pen.

Kyra Blackwell: Oh, yeah. A fountain pen.

Rosie Garren: Yeah. She literally writes with a fountain pen like

Kyra Blackwell: Shakespeare did. Yes.

Rosie Garren: I mean, I think he had a quill. No,

Kyra Blackwell: that's that's the old age fountain pen, isn't it?

Rosie Garren: But yeah, I also like writing on pen and paper. And I really like a super inky pen. So, I'm going to try it.

Kyra Blackwell: That's awesome. I love that.

Rosie Garren: Mhm.

Kyra Blackwell: If you want to find out more about Sulea, her book is called The Book of Alchemy. We'll link it here in the show notes. And you can also check out Ariana's recommendations for digital notebooks. That's it for us for this week. Talk to you soon. Bye

Rosie Garren: bye.

Rosie Garren: The Wire Cutter Show is executive produced by me, Rosie Garin, and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Maziello and Nick Pitman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Loausano, Alicia Eup, Rowan Nisto, Katherine Anderson, and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wire Cutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fman is Wire Cutters editor and chief.

Kyra Blackwell: I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Christine Sir Cleette: I'm Christine Sir Classette.

Rosie Garren: And I'm Rosie Garren. Thank you for listening.

Kyra Blackwell: Great. Great. Great. You know, I can't resist.

Rosie Garren: I I started saying that now. I realiz it just rolls off the tongue.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah, it does. Rosie always goes great when we're done.