Kyra Blackwell: Let's say you are in that kitchen store. You're in a nice little local kitchen store and you're trying out knives. They've opened the case for you and you're holding the knife in your hand and they don't have an onion or a carrot or something for you to

主持人: chop. First off, I wait for the clerk to look away and I shave the the hair on my arm.

Kyra Blackwell: No, you don't. The hair on your arm.

Christine Sir Cleette: I think you should go big and just do your legs.

Christine Sir Cleette: I'm Christine Sir Cleette. I'm Kyra Blackwell and you're listening to the Wire Cutter Show.

Christine Sir Cleette: Hyra, I want to talk about your kitchen.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay,

Christine Sir Cleette: let's get into it. Do you have a knife set or what's your knife situation?

Kyra Blackwell: You're going to be very proud of me. This is the one thing in my kitchen that I do have and I am very proud of. I have a real Japanese knife set. And the only reason it's a nice knife set is because my dad gifted them to me when I graduated from college.

Christine Sir Cleette: Oh, that's a nice gift.

Kyra Blackwell: It was a really lovely gift. So, I have a Shun Japanese knife set. It's very nice. It's got five knives all in total, and I love them.

Christine Sir Cleette: Oh, that's lovely. What about you?

Christine Sir Cleette: I have some pretty nice knives that I've accumulated over the years. They're kind of a hodge podge. I don't have a set, but I am going to admit that I don't think I take great care of them. I don't sharpen them enough and I have lots of people using knives in my house, including my kids. So, someone was recently in my kitchen and mistook a piece of slate for a cutting board and started cutting on it. So, I know that knife is not doing very well.

Kyra Blackwell: We're not naming names.

Christine Sir Cleette: Uh, no, we will not be naming names, but I do think it's probably time to sharpen them.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah, I will say even though I love my knives, I have never gotten them professionally sharpened and I'm feeling a little bit lost about it. I think that we have the right person to talk to us about.

Christine Sir Cleette: We absolutely do. We are bringing back Leslie Stockton who is one of our most senior kitchen writers at Wire Cutter. She knows a ton about knives. She has worked in professional kitchens for many, many years and she wrote our guide to chef's knives. So, she has tested a ton of knives with a bunch of people. So, she's going to really fill us in on everything you need to know about the basic knives that you should have in your kitchen, how to take care of them, how to shop for knives so that you'll be really happy with them. I can't wait to hear what Leslie has to say about all the things I'm doing wrong. So after the break, you're going to hear from Leslie Stockton. Be right back.

Christine Sir Cleette: Welcome back. With us now is Leslie Stockton, who's a senior staff writer on the kitchen team, who spent 20ome years working in professional kitchens, developing recipes, and testing gear. She's also previously been on this podcast to talk about butter, pies, and Thanksgiving cooking gear. Leslie, welcome back.

Leslie Stockton: Hey, thank you. It's good to be here.

Christine Sir Cleette: We love having you.

Kyra Blackwell: Love having you here.

Christine Sir Cleette: Let's chat.

Kyra Blackwell: Let's chat. And we are going to talk about something you and I have worked on in the past, which is knives. I've edited some of our knife coverage and I remember working with you on this and realizing I didn't know anything about knives and my my kitchen knives were terrible. So, let's start at the very beginning. How many knives do you think you really need to have to get all the things done in the kitchen?

Leslie Stockton: I will say at the very least have three knives.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay. And those three knives.

Leslie Stockton: All right. So, that's your chef's knife, which is your classic looking kitchen knife from cartoons. you know, if you or like psycho or like psycho or or clue, you know, and that's going to do most of your tasks. Like I can de-bone a chicken with a chef's knife. I can also cut up a bunch of vegetables, bunch of apples for a pie. It does most of the things. That's going to be your main knife. The second knife is a pairing knife. And it's really nice to have a pairing knife if you just want to trim some radishes or you want to cut up something small as a snack.

Kyra Blackwell: Can you remind me what a pairing knife looks like?

Leslie Stockton: It's that small. It has about like a 3 to 4 in blade, little handle, you know, very very small.

Kyra Blackwell: Whereas a chef's knife is usually like 8 in long.

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. An 8 in chef's knife is the best for most home cooks.

Kyra Blackwell: And then what's that third knife?

Leslie Stockton: A serrated knife. A serrated knife is great for cutting bread. It's usually called a bread knife. It's also good for

Christine Sir Cleette: I cut my tomatoes with a serrated knife.

Leslie Stockton: This is the one with the teeth. Basically, I like to break down large hard squashes with it. I literally only use my serrated knife for bread.

Kyra Blackwell: I think that's perfectly fine, too.

Christine Sir Cleette: That's fine, too. Good to know, though.

Kyra Blackwell: So, a pairing knife, a chef's knife, and a serrated knife.

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. So, I know generally at Wire Cutter, our rule of thumb is don't buy a pre-made kit or set of a lot of things, but knives feels a little bit different. Do you recommend getting a knife set?

Kyra Blackwell: I feel like that's a personal choice.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay.

Leslie Stockton: Pros for a knife set.

Kyra Blackwell: Mhm.

Leslie Stockton: It comes with a knife block.

Christine Sir Cleette: Knife storage is usually tough for folks. So, a knife block is a big wooden thing that sits on your counter with slots in it that holds the knives, and it keeps the knives from banging up against each other, getting dull just from being stored in a drawer. Yeah.

Leslie Stockton: But there are other ways to store knives. That's not the only way, but I think that's an appeal. If it's very important to you that all of your knives match, get the set. I wouldn't though.

Kyra Blackwell: But on the on the con side, isn't it true that manufacturers or retailers often sort of cheap out on certain elements of the set? You might get a decent chef's knife, but they might be sort of cutting corners on some of the knives that you're getting in that set, right?

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. You're probably you're going to get filler knives. Yeah.

Christine Sir Cleette: I just feel like those sets always have more knives than I ever need. There's a lot of knives in those knife sets. It's definitely more than three.

Leslie Stockton: Oh, definitely more than three. And then you have what, six steak knives? I've never needed six steak knives in my life.

Kyra Blackwell: So, take it or leave it. Do what feels right for you. But you definitely don't need a whole set to have ample ability in your kitchen.

Christine Sir Cleette: I want to focus in a little bit on the chef's knife. So, this is arguably like the most important knife to have and maybe the place to spend the most money if you're going to invest. There are so many different styles, different price points of chef's knives. I think if you were walking into like a William Sonoma or a nice kitchen store, you might be a little overwhelmed by all of the choices. We've had a It's What is this? The Mac MTH80.

Leslie Stockton: Okay. MTH80 has been our reigning pick for a long time. Do you think that this is just like universally a great knife for everyone or is it kind of like you need to get a chef's knife in your hand to see if it feels right?

Kyra Blackwell: Yes and yes.

Leslie Stockton: Okay. Uh, everyone that I have made use this knife. And I've had a lot of people come and chop a lot of vegetables cuz it is very important that people of different skill levels, sizes. It's important to me that they all use the knives. I don't think I've ever found anyone in my years of conducting these huge panel tests that didn't love the Mac MTH80. It's not polarizing at all. Like some knives, like the Global Knife is like polarizing because it has that stainless steel handle that's like dimpled. People either love it or they hate it.

Christine Sir Cleette: I am a lover of Global Knives. I They are the right size for my hand. They feel good. I always reach for that in my knife kit. But the Mac knife that is our main loves it. Everybody loves it. People might be familiar with the fact that there are Japanese style chef knives and there are what we call maybe like German or European style. What is the difference between those two and what is the Mac?

Leslie Stockton: So the Mac is what is called a westernstyle Japanese knife.

Kyra Blackwell: What does that mean?

Leslie Stockton: So let's go back to what's the difference between a western style and a Japanese knife. A western style chef's knife usually has a riveted handle,

Christine Sir Cleette: right? So, you can see the rivets in the handle. And when you're talking about like the higherend ones, they have what is called a full tang. And the tang is the piece of metal that the handle attaches to. You don't need a full tang, but that is a characteristic of like especially a German knife. And people might be familiar with like a worust or a hankle, you know, even a sabatier and they market that as like it's a full tang. It is quality, but it really doesn't

Leslie Stockton: doesn't really matter that much.

Christine Sir Cleette: It doesn't really matter that much and it makes the handle heavier, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Leslie Stockton: It all comes down to comfort. Now, also, Western style knives have like a more curved cutting edge, which is more conducive to like a rocking motion when you chop. M

Christine Sir Cleette: like if you keep some part of the blade in contact with the cutting board at all times that's chopping with a rocking motion.

Kyra Blackwell: And is the actual blade like how it's sharpened? Different on on these western

Leslie Stockton: Yes.

Leslie Stockton: stuff. So all right. So the edge the blade and the edge are two different things, right? The blade is the metal that you see and the edge is what you cut with and that is what is ground to a sharp point. With European knives, it's called an even bevel, which means each side of that edge is ground to the same angle.

Christine Sir Cleette: They seem like they look a little thicker.

Leslie Stockton: They are. And the blade is also the blade itself is also thicker,

Kyra Blackwell: right?

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah. Versus Japanese knives I found just tend to be like they're like really really thin.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah. But sometimes uh and we'll talk about sharpening later in this episode, but sometimes when I've perused getting my knife sharpened because they are Japanese style, the sharpener will ask if it's a single or a double edge. Yep.

Leslie Stockton: A double bevel edge is what you would see in a western style knife, right? Both sides of that edge are ground at the same angle. an uneven bevel is so the the the Japanese knives, one side of the edge is ground to a much more acute angle. Now, here's the great thing about Japanese knives or not so great to be quite honest. If you're left-handed, you need to buy a left-handed knife.

Kyra Blackwell: Ah, where that's not really a consideration for western style knives because they have that even.

Leslie Stockton: Yeah, it's the same on both sides. And and just to go back a little bit to the difference between these styles. So presumably with the Japanese style besides the the uneven bevel, you said that the western style has more of a curve in the blade. So is it a flatter blade? Yes. Also a Japanese knife is flatter. With a Japanese chef's knife, which is called a guu, you want to do like a pushpull

Christine Sir Cleette: where you bring the knife up off the board. So, is it safe to say for people who aren't professional chefs or just, you know, noviceses in the kitchen, it would be a better bet to go with a westernstyle knife?

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. Okay. Or a western style Japanese knife.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay. So, what does that mean? So, if it's western style Japanese, I'm assuming it's some kind of hybrid between

Leslie Stockton: It is a hybrid. So, like let's take the Mac MTH80. It is a knife with a riveted handle and a full tang.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay. It has not as severe of an arc in its edge, so it's a little flatter and it has an even bevel,

Leslie Stockton: so you can do a little bit of the rocking. It's easier to sharpen.

Christine Sir Cleette: It's great for both cutting styles.

Kyra Blackwell: I see. It's more This is versatile, right?

Leslie Stockton: It's versatile. And people with large hands put this, you know, before they started cutting. Like, I know I'm just knock my knuckles on the board. I'm like, "Yeah, I would love to see if you do." And they're like, "Oh my god, I don't." People with large hands still got great knuckle clearance,

Christine Sir Cleette: which can be an issue, which can be an issue with some Japanese knives, right? Is that knuckle clearance why maybe people with bigger hands might prefer something like a worust, a German style, western style knife.

Leslie Stockton: Yes. And it all depends on how you hold the knife, right? If you are holding it with your knuckles down, you are probably going to need a western knife, which gives you more space there,

Kyra Blackwell: clearance. So then can we just talk about so you know kind of what you're looking for. You're going to a store to test out knives. How do you know which knife is the one? What like do you have a regiment that you go through when you're testing knives or you're like okay like my knuckles are cracking against the cutting board or it just doesn't feel right. It's too heavy. It's too light. Like what is start with universal?

Leslie Stockton: Yes. Start with sharpness.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay. The factory edge is arguably the best and longest lasting edge that you might get on your knife. If it doesn't start out with a great edge, don't even bother.

Christine Sir Cleette: But how do you sharpness on a knife?

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Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah. Like if you're let's say let's say you are in that kitchen store, you're in a nice little local kitchen store and you're trying out knives. They've opened the case for you and you're holding the knife in your hand like and they don't have an onion or a carrot or something to

Kyra Blackwell: First off, I wait for the clerk to look away and I shave the the hair on my arm.

Christine Sir Cleette: No, you don't. The hair on your arm.

Kyra Blackwell: I think you should go big and just do your legs.

Leslie Stockton: You know, you just like pull up your sleeve and you just do like a little shade to see how close it can get. Lesie, you're wild for that.

Leslie Stockton: You can like run your thumb lightly like perpendicular to the blade. You can also if you hold the knife blade up with the butt of the handle towards you and just like look down and look how it catches the light. You will see imperfections in that blade if they exist. like the light will like catch like a nick or any sort of like toothiness going on or uh any sort of unevenness in the blade. So if you go buy a knife in person, ask to see a few of the same kn like this is the knife I want.

Christine Sir Cleette: Can I see three of this knife? And examine them and look and see like make sure that edge is straight. Make sure there's no like little nicks or whatever. Get a good one.

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. Don't just take the first knife they hand you. Right.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah. Exactly.

Kyra Blackwell: I love that. Yeah. Okay. Cuz you will presumably see

Leslie Stockton: different imperfections in these three different knives and you choose the one you think that looks the least imperfect.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay. So, that's great. So, you look at the blade, maybe shave a little uh fur off your arms. Uh, don't do that. We're going to have everybody in the store just shave

Leslie Stockton: or like ask them if they'll let you cut a piece of paper.

Christine Sir Cleette: Right. Okay.

Leslie Stockton: Or ask like, "How can I test this edge? Do you have a way for me to test this knife?" Mhm.

Christine Sir Cleette: I need to know if it's comfortable. And then how should the handle feel? Like when do you know to Kyra's point that you found the one?

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. It's if you get to test a few of them, you just know.

Kyra Blackwell: Mhm.

Leslie Stockton: Like how do you find a spouse? You just know.

Christine Sir Cleette: You just know, you know, you just know what what what like feels best. And I'll add balance to that, too, because people will say, "Oh, it's perfectly balanced." I'm like, "For whom?"

Leslie Stockton: Some people say like, "This is perfectly balanced." So they'll like balance the knife like where the blade meets the handle and it'll just sit there perfectly. I'm like, well, yes, it's balanced like that, but some people like a knife that's more handleheavy and some people like a knife that's more blade heavy. Again, that like that's personal preference.

Kyra Blackwell: So it's there's no perfect knife for everyone. You might like a knife that I don't like. It's all individual, which is why ideally it'd be great if you can go try them out, right? But if you don't have a store that you can go to or whatever, or you don't want to overthink it, the Mac is pretty good.

Leslie Stockton: Yes. And I will add the knives that we recommend have been the favorites of so many testers throughout the years.

Christine Sir Cleette: So many.

Kyra Blackwell: So, you probably can't go wrong. Well, I want to talk about price. Like, how much should you expect to spend on a really good knife? So, you can get a really good knife for around $50.

Christine Sir Cleette: What?

Leslie Stockton: Not like the prettiest knife, but you know, the Vtorox 8 inch chef's knife is

Leslie Stockton: I mean, if you're outfitting your first kitchen, if you want a knife for camping, if you have like an Airbnb like gear kit

Kyra Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

Leslie Stockton: and it's still sharp and it's still like comfortable. And what if you want to spend a little more? Let's say this is your forever home knife. There are two. There's the MAC, which is my all-time favorite.

Christine Sir Cleette: How much does that cost?

Leslie Stockton: That's a 155.

Kyra Blackwell: That's still not That's not bad.

Christine Sir Cleette: It's not.

Kyra Blackwell: When you consider it will, if you take care of it, it should last you decades, right?

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. And it's the only knife that we recommend, and I feel like I need to mention this, that has a dimpled blade. And I'm just going to go on the record and say it does nothing.

Christine Sir Cleette: It's not a reason. It's not one of the reasons why we recommend it. For people who might be confused by what this means, like it's little indents inside of the blade, right?

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. That have been like laser etched out and it's supposed to create air pockets between, you know, your blade so food doesn't stick to the blade.

Leslie Stockton: Does nothing. For about 120, you can get a Tojiro Classic, which is another Japanese knife. It's like 8 and a half, so it's a little longer. It's like a tiny bit longer and it has like kind of like a wider blade. Like it's kind of good for scooping and the blade is al itself is like thinner than the Mac. It's a good knife. It used to be $80 and now it's like 120. So I have to rethink I I need to get my hands on it again. See if I can Everything's gone up.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah. Everything's gone up.

Leslie Stockton: Waf classic Icon 8 in chef's knife. If you want a German knife with a more curved edge, you really like that rocking motion when you cut, then that's what you should get. Classic Icon. We just established that when you're thinking about these three basic knives that you should always have, that the chef's knife is where it's worth spending the money. What about the pairing knife and the serrated/bred knife? Do you need to really put the money there or can you get by with a cheaper knife in those categories?

Leslie Stockton: I love a cheap pairing knife. I do. The Victoriox 3 and a/4 inch pairing knife with a plastic handle, nice thin blade. You can just get one or you can buy a pack of like two or three and the price comes down dramatically per knife when you do that. I think I have too many of these. Um, I love them though. You don't need to spend a lot on a pairing knife. I like a lightweight pairing knife cuz a lot of times I'm using it in hand.

Christine Sir Cleette: The first Vtorox paring knife I used was actually from my dad's fishing boat, his commercial fishing boat. We had all of these little we call them red Vicky's and they're red handle serrated but they're they're the size of pairing knife. And I now have some of those in my kitchen from the boat. We've probably had them for over 20 years. And that's the knife I have my kids cut with.

Leslie Stockton: I love the Victoriaox serrated.

Christine Sir Cleette: They are small knives. So great. And like they are really really great for kids who are like I had my kids at four using those knives like cutting. Actually my 10-year-old um just made a beautiful Greek salad this week with with that knife.

Kyra Blackwell: With that knife. Yeah. I use it to open Amazon boxes. I use it for everything.

Leslie Stockton: I know. No, it it's isn't you can even get a threeack of the the regular pairing knife. The 3 and 1/4 in serrated and then like the longer rounded

Kyra Blackwell: Oh yeah. Yeah,

Leslie Stockton: they call it the serrated utility knife. You can get that threeack. It's kind of awesome.

Christine Sir Cleette: And these knives are like they are so cheap. They're like

Leslie Stockton: so cheap on Amazon. One Victoriaox pairing knife is $12. At Williams Sonoma, a pack of two is $12.

Kyra Blackwell: Oh wow. What about the serrated knife? How much do you need to spend on that?

Leslie Stockton: You really don't need to spend much at all. In fact, our top pick costs $17, which is the Mercer Millennia. You really don't need to spend a lot. You don't need a fancy handle. You don't need forged steel. Like, if you want it, go for it. But the most important things about a serrated knife that will really make your life easier is like you want medium spaced serrations. You don't want them like super close together.

Christine Sir Cleette: And this is for a bread knife. If you're cutting a lot of crusty bread, you want pointed serrations cuz the pointed serrations are going to really dig into that crustiness, grab onto it and like start doing the work.

Kyra Blackwell: And what about I've seen these serrated knives, some of them have like a slightly curved edge while some of them are really straight. What is

Leslie Stockton: I only recommend curved edge.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay.

Leslie Stockton: Serrated knives because they are so much more versatile.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay, so we just learned a lot. I'm going to do a quick little recap. Okay, basically it sounds like you really need to put your most focus in your chef's knife. Spend the most money here cuz it's the knife that you're probably going to be reaching for the most in your kitchen and it will do the job. So, a western style knife is going to have a thicker blade and an even bevel. Yes. And then a Japanese knife is going to be flatter and thinner, whereas a western knife is curved. Yes. And if you want to pair or like build yourself your own little knife kit, then you should also focus on a pairing knife and a serrated edge knife, aka bread knife. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and when we're back, we're going to talk about the things you may not have known about how to properly care for your knives, which is maybe just as important as what we just covered. We'll be right back.

Christine Sir Cleette: Welcome back. Now that we know the basics about knives, let's talk about how to properly care for them. Leslie, this is where I sin the most in my kitchen. I probably do not take care of my knives the way that they should be taken care of. So, uh, we are going to play a quick game of now. You know, you have actually come prepared with a little test for us, right? Maybe this will reveal something about our characters.

Leslie Stockton: Let's see what we know and where we have gone wrong in the past.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay. True or false? If your knife is really, really dirty and gunky, it's okay to submerge it in hot soapy water overnight.

Leslie Stockton: No.

Kyra Blackwell: No. I'm going to say no.

Leslie Stockton: That is false.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay. False.

Kyra Blackwell: Correct.

Christine Sir Cleette: Why though?

Kyra Blackwell: And why?

Leslie Stockton: Well, one, it's just dangerous. And two, um,

Christine Sir Cleette: dangerous cuz you might reach in there and cut yourself.

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but also like water can like seep in between the handle and like the rivet or the tang. It can like get mildwy. It can also cause your blade to rust or tarnish. Just don't do it. Go. Many reasons.

Christine Sir Cleette: Noted. Noted.

Christine Sir Cleette: Damages like a chipped edge or a bent tip are basically unfixable and you have to throw it away.

Leslie Stockton: False.

Kyra Blackwell: False. I think it's salvageable. But you should probably pay somebody to do that.

Christine Sir Cleette: Oh, you can't do that yourself.

Leslie Stockton: Okay. Yeah, send that out to a professional.

Christine Sir Cleette: There is no good way to store a knife in a drawer.

Kyra Blackwell: False. I store my knives in a drawer. And you can do it in two ways. I'm going to get extra credit. Are we ready?

Christine Sir Cleette: Like you edited her guide on this. That's cheating.

Kyra Blackwell: I should let you answer that cuz that's going to say false unless you have a sleeve for each of your individual knives.

Leslie Stockton: I think that is one one answer, right? Is a sleeve like a little plastic sleeve. Okay, I have the wooden insert that goes in a drawer that has little slots. So, it's basically like a knife block, but it's just you rest your knives in these little slots inside

Kyra Blackwell: my drawer.

Leslie Stockton: That's also a good way to do it.

Christine Sir Cleette: True or false? Go ahead and throw your knife in the dishwasher. As long as it's on the top top rack, it's okay to put your knife in the dishwasher. False.

Kyra Blackwell: I'm going to say false.

Leslie Stockton: That's false. Yes.

Christine Sir Cleette: Well, the heat from the dishwasher really damages the handle. I'm going to admit something. I know that this is not something that is okay to do for your knives, but and I don't do it with my expensive chef knives, but I do it with my Victoriaox paring knife.

Leslie Stockton: I also do it with my Victorianox pairing knives because like they're easy to sharpen and we'll we'll

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah, it's like whatever.

Leslie Stockton: They're cheap, they're easy to sharpen. Like that's

Kyra Blackwell: So maybe the lesson here is also um follow these rules definitely for your expensive knives, but as the price goes down, maybe you can just make your own choice there.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah. Okay.

Kyra Blackwell: Yep. Mhm. Okay.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay. But I have learned that I haven't been a great knife parent. I think

Leslie Stockton: I mean, we all slip up. Don't worry.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah.

Kyra Blackwell: But what are what are some really clear signs that your knives are just in deep deep despair

Leslie Stockton: if you can't even get close to piercing a tomato skin?

Christine Sir Cleette: Oh, I'm there.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah.

Christine Sir Cleette: Oh, I'm there.

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. Get get them sharpened. Get them sharpened. Because when you think about it, like it's it's it's just not safe. Yeah. That thing can slip off the tomato skin and then you can cut yourself.

Christine Sir Cleette: And

Kyra Blackwell: can I get a little graphic?

Christine Sir Cleette: Sure.

Kyra Blackwell: Cutting yourself with a sharp knife versus a dull one. It's a difference between a scalpel and a chainsaw.

Christine Sir Cleette: That's nice.

Kyra Blackwell: So, somewhat counterintuitively, a sharper knife is going to be a safer knife.

Christine Sir Cleette: It's It's a clean cut. It's a safer knife.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay, we are going to get now into some of the nitty-gritty about maintaining the edge of your knife. A lot of people who buy a knife set will get a honing rod. It's got a handle. It's kind of a round long tube that is sort of it's got some texture on the outside of it. I think a lot of people think that that is used to sharpen a knife. You see it in movies like people like, you know, running the knife along the edge. Is that used? Is that really for sharpening?

Leslie Stockton: If there's only one thing your listeners take away from this, it is a honing rod will not sharpen your knife. It does not shave away metal. What a honing rod does. Can we get back to knife edges? Sure.

Leslie Stockton: So, you look at a knife edge, it looks smooth, but in fact,

Christine Sir Cleette: there's these microscopic teeth at the very tip of the edge. And as you cut, like those teeth kind of like get out of alignment. they're used. Like some of these teeth, they just kind of like bend out of place. And what a honing rod does is that when you run it along a honing rod, it lines those little microscopic teeth right back up. And then voila, it feels sharper.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay? It's not actually sharpening the edge.

Christine Sir Cleette: It's not It's not grinding away

Leslie Stockton: back into place so they will cut more effectively.

Christine Sir Cleette: Sharpening your knife grinds away metal to create a new edge. Honing your knife realines those little microscopic teeth. So, how often should someone be honing a knife using that honing rod

Leslie Stockton: before you cook? Every single time.

Kyra Blackwell: So, every single time?

Leslie Stockton: It's just like swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. Done.

Christine Sir Cleette: How do you know though? The thing I'm always That sounds like so much work. But

Kyra Blackwell: the thing I'm always a little concerned about when I use a honing rod is that I'm going to actually dull the knife. How do you know you're doing it at the right angle?

Leslie Stockton: It feels sharper. And also,

Christine Sir Cleette: like once you've done it, the knife feels sharper. If it doesn't feel sharp or you know you haven't really honed it properly.

Leslie Stockton: Yeah. But okay, if you're scared of honing in the very beginning when you're learning how to hone your knife, don't do it with, you know, the honing rod in your hand and you're pulling the knife down towards your hand,

Kyra Blackwell: which I think is what most people think of like that's what you see.

Christine Sir Cleette: And it also it makes me feel like a samurai and I like that.

Leslie Stockton: And I do it because I'm awesome.

Kyra Blackwell: Yes.

Christine Sir Cleette: But you're also very experienced.

Leslie Stockton: I'm also very experienced. So, when you're just starting out, put the tip of the honing rod on the cutting board. Put your hand on the handle and then

Leslie Stockton: put the edge of your blade on the honing rod and, you know, three pennies. Let's try three pennies, you know, of an angle away from the honing rod, right? And then just just pull it down.

Christine Sir Cleette: You're kind of doing like a cello motion, you know, pull it down either side. You do have some imagery in your guide on your chef's uh knife guide, which we will link in the show notes that really does show how lots of gifts. Yeah, there's so many gifts.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay. So, even though a honing steel only hones, it doesn't sharpen. You definitely still need one in your knife set because you need to use it every single day.

Leslie Stockton: Yes. Okay. So, is it okay to use a honing steel on a serrated knife?

Kyra Blackwell: No. I mean, the truth the truth with serrated knives isn't it that you kind of like you can't really sharpen them and eventually you have to replace them

Leslie Stockton: and it's fine because like they're so they're useful for so many years. That's I mean that's the whole point of the serration. My other knives though I do know need professional work because again it's been about 10 years and I've never ever sent them out to get professionally sharpened before. There is a little boutique general store on my block that advertises that they will sharpen knives and I've been really really interested in that because it's so convenient. Would you recommend that? I know that a lot of different shops around the country have this service, but where where do you recommend people send their knives off to be sharpened? First of all,

Christine Sir Cleette: Mhm.

Leslie Stockton: I would ask them how they're sharpening it.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay. Because if they're just using like a chef's choice home knife sharpener, just get yourself a chef's choice knife sharpener because you're going to pay for that over and over again if you just send it to them for them to use that thing like a home knife sharpener.

Kyra Blackwell: What would you prefer that they be using? How how would you want them to be sharpening the knives? I will only send my knives out to someone who uses a waterhe and or kurin. It's a Japanese knife and kitchen store in downtown Manhattan and they sharpen on stones.

Christine Sir Cleette: Okay. So then for the rest of us Leslie, uh

Kyra Blackwell: I had to get it out y'all. What a normal people do. I had to get it out. I had to get it out. If you want to send your knives to someone who uses like a home knife sharpener, I great, do it. I think it is much more convenient for you to just have that thing in your home and sharpen them yourself.

Christine Sir Cleette: If you do not live in New York City and you are not going to ship your knives to Cororin here in Manhattan, um any advice on finding someone locally who who's doing a decent job who cuz surely there are people who can do this in other parts of the world.

Leslie Stockton: Definitely definitely Reddit who who does the best knife sharpening for kitchen knives in our area.

Christine Sir Cleette: And then you just call them be like, "Hey, how do you sharpen your knives?" And if they say they use stones,

Kyra Blackwell: okay,

Leslie Stockton: the thinner your blade, I think the more, but you can do both. You can use the home sharpener and then once every 18 months or something or, you know, a couple years, like get a a new professional edge put on it.

Christine Sir Cleette: One last question. When can you tell that your knife is beyond repair? It's time to give up. Get a new knife. if you can't get an edge on it or it won't hold an edge for dear life. Like it will just not hold an edge. Like you sharpen it and you're like halfway through a tomato and it's already dull. It's time to get a new knife.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah.

Christine Sir Cleette: All right, Leslie. Well, before we wrap, we always ask one final question. What's the last thing you bought that you really loved?

Leslie Stockton: It's spring. I went to Costco. Lamb T-bones, $9 a pound.

Christine Sir Cleette: Fresh red, like 10. Oh my god. I I get two packages. I wrap them up like two per and freeze them all.

Kyra Blackwell: Love that.

Leslie Stockton: And they're delicious. I just need y'all to know that like lamb t-bones everywhere else is like $18 to $20 a pound. Like this is like

Christine Sir Cleette: bonkers.

Leslie Stockton: Year after year, the deal of the century. Okay.

Kyra Blackwell: Wow. Well, thank you so much, Leslie, for being here with us today.

Leslie Stockton: Thank you for having me.

Christine Sir Cleette: Kyra, I feel like we uh we both learned a lot.

Kyra Blackwell: I learned so many new things.

Christine Sir Cleette: I even edited that guide with Leslie years ago and I still learned a bunch of stuff. So,

Kyra Blackwell: it seems like there's a lot to say about knives.

Christine Sir Cleette: There's so much to say about knives. Okay, so what are you taking away from this episode?

Kyra Blackwell: Well, Christine, you know that I really do love my knife set. I have not been sharpening them at all. It sounds like I probably should be sending them to Corin, but I think I might just end up getting a knife sharpener for one of our guides and doing it at home myself.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah. And our main knife sharpener, the the chef's choice, it does have a setting for Japanese knives. So, I would imagine it probably won't be as perfect as if you sent it to Corin or a really good knife sharpener.

Kyra Blackwell: I am not a perfectionist.

Christine Sir Cleette: Yeah. And it's going to cost you a lot less. So, so that's great. I think it's time for me to get a new bread knife. Um, a new serrated knife. Mine is it's flat.

Kyra Blackwell: I want one with one one with the curved edge. And the the Mercer one that we recommend is so cheap. I I feel like

Christine Sir Cleette: $17.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah, why not? So, I think that's on my list.

Christine Sir Cleette: I love Okay, we both have some really good takeaways this time.

Christine Sir Cleette: If you want to find out more about Wire Cutter's coverage or if you want to check out any of the products Leslie recommended today, go to nytimes.com/wirecutter or find a link in the show notes. That's it for us until next week. Thank you so much for listening.

Christine Sir Cleette: The Wire Cutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Garin and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Maziello and Nick Pitman. Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Beet, Catherine Anderson, Rowan Nisto, and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wire Cutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fman is Wire Cutters editorinchief.

Kyra Blackwell: I'm Kyra Blackwell. I'm Christine Sirette. Thanks for listening.

Christine Sir Cleette: Am I getting too cheffy when I say to suprem and orange? Yes, you are. Yes.

Kyra Blackwell: Yes.