引言与开场
我不在乎屋子里坐的是谁。如果你觉得我说的某件事很愚蠢、很荒谬，或者我没考虑到什么，或者我有盲点，我不在乎你是一个25岁刚从MBA项目出来的职场新人，还是已经在公司工作了20年的资深员工。直接反驳我，告诉我你认为我遗漏了什么。
大家好。我是挪威主权财富基金（Norwegian Oil Fund）的CEO尼古拉·坦根（Nicolai Tangen）。今天邀请到的是NextEra Energy的CEO约翰·凯彻姆（John Ketchum），NextEra是全球市值最高的电力公司。我们持有该公司1.5%的股份，价值超过20亿美元。
现在，AI需要电力，需求量更大，速度也比任何人预期的都要快。NextEra正在建设与之匹配的电力设施，并且刚刚同意了行业历史上最大规模的合并来实现这一目标。那么，你是如何打造出地球上最大的电力公司的？让我们一探究竟。约翰，热烈欢迎你。
英文原文
>> I don't care who I'm in a room with. If you think something I've said is stupid or dumb or I haven't thought about something or I have a blind spot, I don't care if you're a 25year-old, you know, newbie out of an NBA program or you're somebody who's been with the with the uh company for 20 years. Push back and tell me what you think I'm missing.Hi everybody. I'm Nicolola Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sol Fund and today I'm joined by John Ketchum, CEO of Next Era Energy, the world's most valuable power company. We own one and a half% of the company worth more than $2 billion.
Now AI needs electricity, more of it, faster than anyone expected. And next era is building the power to match and just agreed to the biggest merger in the industry's history to do it. So how do you build the biggest power company on earth? Let's figure it out. John, warm welcome.
哇，非常高兴来到这里。谢谢你，尼古拉。
英文原文
>> Wow, great to be here. Thank you, Nikolai.嗯，你们最初是一家佛罗里达的区域性公用事业公司，现在已经发展成为极其庞大的存在。那么，用五句话概括，NextEra是做什么的？
英文原文
>> Um, you started out as a regional Florida utility and now you've grown to something which is which is huge. So in five sentences, what does next era do?嗯，我们是一家建设者。是的。
英文原文
>> Well, we're a builder. Yep.第一点。对。当你纵观全美，我们是唯一一家在整个能源价值链上实现完全多元化的公司，在全美几乎每个州都有项目在建。而真正让我们脱颖而出的是我们的开发能力，以及我们对待客户和用电可负担性（affordability）的方式。我们建设成本更低、采购成本更低、运营成本更低，并且融资成本也更低。而在我们的行业中，规模比以往任何时候都更重要。确实如此。那你认为你们与普通电力公司最大的区别是什么？
英文原文
>> Number one. Right. When you look across the United States, we're the only company that is fully diversified across the entire energy value chain building in just about every state in the country. And what really separates us is our development capabilities and our approach to customers and affordability. We build cheaper, we buy cheaper, we operate cheaper, and we finance cheaper. And scale matters more than ever in our industry. Absolutely. And what would you say is the big the biggest difference between you and an ordinary power company?规模优势与电力行业的新机遇
嗯，我认为最大的区别在于我们的规模、能力和经验。要知道，我们做这件事已经有两到三个十年了。例如，如果你看过去20年，拿我们与接下来最大的20家同行相比，我们的建设量超过了这20家同行的总和。
英文原文
>> Well, the biggest difference I think is our scale and our capabilities and our experience. You know, we've been doing this now for two to three decades. So, if you look at the last 20 years, for example, and you compare us versus our next 20 largest peers, we built more than the next 20 combined.哇。
英文原文
>> Wow.这只是举个例子。但直到最近，做一家电力公司其实相当无聊，对吧？我的意思是，它平稳、无聊，而现在，哇，太令人兴奋了，对吧？
英文原文
>> Just to give you an example. But until recently being a power company was kind of pretty boring, right? I mean, it was steady, boring, and now, wow, exciting, huh?发生了什么？
英文原文
>> What happened?在NextEra从来都不无聊。让我告诉你，尼古拉，我们一直都有令人兴奋的机遇。但你说得对，电力需求之前一直停滞不前。是的。
英文原文
>> It's never been boring at next. Let me tell you, Nikolai, we've always had exciting opportunities. But you're right, power demand has been static. Yeah.而预计在未来20年里，它将增长六倍。
英文原文
>> And it's expected to increase sixfold over the next 20 years.所以当我们展望未来时，看到的是一个巨大的机遇。
英文原文
>> So, an enormous opportunity that we're looking at as we look to the future.并购Dominion Energy与可负担性
确实如此。我们稍后会回到其背后的驱动因素。现在，你们还同意收购Dominion Energy，这也是一家非常大的美国公用事业公司。那么，为什么是Dominion，为什么要收购？
英文原文
>> Absolutely. And we'll come back to the drivers behind that. Now, you also agreed to buy Dominion Energy, which is another very large US utility. So, why why Dominion and why?嗯，这是一家运营非常出色的公司。他们在弗吉尼亚州、南卡罗来纳州和北卡罗来纳州这三个非常棒的州开展业务。三个州都具备增长机遇。同时也有挑战，我们必须确保满足客户的要求，也就是可负担性。可负担性是我们在NextEra以及在Florida Power & Light所做工作的重中之重。我给你举个例子，说明为什么规模至关重要，为什么在我们行业拥有一家大型电力公司至关重要。这就是规模，没有比Florida Power & Light更好的例子了。它是我们拥有并运营的全美最大的费率受监管（rate-regulated）公用事业机构。
英文原文
>> Well, it's a really well-run company. They are in three terrific states in Virginia and South Carolina and North Carolina. Uh growth opportunities in all three states. Also, challenges where we have to make sure that we meet the customer requirements which are affordability. Affordability is at the forefront of what we do at Next Era and what we do at Florida Power and Light. I'll give you an example of why scale matters and why having a large power company matters in our industry. It's scale and there's no better example than Florida Power Light. It's the largest rate regulating uh utility in the United States that we own and operate.我们今天的电费账单，如果看过去20年，按实际美元价值计算其实下降了20%。我们今天的账单比全国平均水平低37%，而且我们并没有牺牲对客户的服务质量。
英文原文
>> We have a bill today, right? a bill today that if you look over the last 20 years has actually gone down 20% in real dollars. It's we have a bill today that's 37% lower than the national average and we haven't cut corners for customers.你们的客户从中受益了吗？他们确实受益了，因为在运营一家受费率监管的公用事业公司时，你必须为客户带来成果。如果你无法提供负担得起且可靠的电能，你永远不会成功。还有可靠性方面，我们位列前10%（top decile），比全国平均水平好60%。这些都是我们认为能够通过这次合并带给弗吉尼亚、北卡罗来纳和南卡罗来纳的规模效益。
英文原文
>> Do your clients benefit from this? They certainly do because in a in running a rate regulated utility, you have to deliver for the customer. And if you can't deliver affordability and reliable electric energy, you're never going to succeed. And reliability too, we're top decile, 60% better than the national average. And those are things that we think those scale benefits that we can bring to this merger to Virginia to North Carolina to South Carolina.这笔交易可能会出什么问题？嗯，你要知道，这笔交易完全合情合理。所以当你审视我们从利益相关方那里听到的优先诉求时，第一是可负担性；第二是创造就业和经济发展；第三是提供有效能源解决方案的能力。其中一些能源解决方案在不同州之间略有不同。
英文原文
>> What What can go wrong with this deal? Well, you know, this deal makes all the sense in the world. So, when you when you look at what the priorities are that we've heard from stakeholders, number one, it's affordability. Two, it's job creation and economic development. And three, it's the ability to deliver effective energy solutions. And some of those energy solutions differ a little bit by state.嗯，但我们认为全美没有任何一家公司比我们更有优势来落实这三点。可负担性方面我们刚才谈过了；创造就业是另一个方面。我们刚刚公布了对弗吉尼亚州的一系列修订承诺，我们将在该州创造1000个新工作岗位。其中600个将来自NextEra，400个来自我们已经获得的供应商意向书。我们将在那里建造一座新的办公大楼，作为我们以及我们在弗吉尼亚发展的双总部设施。我们有机会围绕弗吉尼亚发展一个真正的生态系统，使该州有望成为全球电力领域的领导者。
英文原文
>> Um, but we don't think there's any any company in America better positioned to be able to deliver on those three things. affordability. We just talked about job creation is another one. We just came out with a with a set of revised commitments for Virginia where we're going to bring a thousand new jobs to the state. 600 of those would be from uh Next Era. 400 from letters of intent that we already have from suppliers. We're going to build a new office tower there which will serve as a dual headquarters uh facility for us and for our growth in Virginia. and we have the chance to develop a real ecosystem around uh Virginia that could position the state to become uh a global leader in power.供应链壁垒与每周10亿美元的资本开支
这些数字令人震惊。你谈到在2027年到2032年之间每年在发电厂上投入600亿美元。也就是每周10亿美元，太不可思议了。那么，每周怎么可能花掉10亿美元？
英文原文
>> Now, the numbers are staggering. You uh talk about spending $60 billion a year on power plants between 27 and 32. So, a billion dollars a week, that's incredible. Now, how how is it possible to spend a billion dollars a week?嗯，这些都是大型设施。当你考虑到我们看到的增长体量——不仅是在如果这次合并完成我们将服务的四个州（即弗吉尼亚州、北卡罗来纳州、南卡罗来纳州和佛罗里达州），还有我们通过NextEra Energy Resources业务在全美进行的所有投资。所以这实际上是一个你可以理解为覆盖50个州的资本投资计划。
英文原文
>> Well, these are large scale facilities. So when you think about the amount of growth that we see not only in the four states that we would serve if this merger closes which would be Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida, and then all the investments that we're making uh through our next energy resources business across the United States. So this is really a you can think of it as a 50-state capital investment plan.瓶颈在哪里？我的意思是……
英文原文
>> What are the what are the bottlenecks? Well, I mean涡轮机、变压器、许可，到底是什么？
英文原文
>> turbines, transformers, perates, what is it?这正是我们凭借规模所拥有的巨大优势之一。但是的，获得设备对这个行业来说一直是一个逆风因素。但我们在战略上努力做到的一件事，就是将逆风转化为竞争优势。这就是规模带给你的好处。所以，如果你在涡轮机可用性、变压器、太阳能电池板、逆变器、电池等方面看到逆风，不管可能是什么，当你进行大批量采购，并且通常是你供应商全球第一大客户时，你就会得到一流的服务。你获得设备的速度将比任何人都快，而且你拿到的价格要低得多。在NextEra，我们非常自豪的一点就是我们世界一流的供应链能力。而且我们提前规划，我们总是提前思考三步，我们不会坐等……
英文原文
>> And that's what that's one of the big advantages that we have because of scale. But yes, I mean getting your hands on equipment uh has been a headwind for this for this industry. But one of the things that we try to do strategically is turn headwinds into competitive advantages. And that's what scale does for you. So if you see a headwind in terms of turbine availability, transformers, solar panels, inverters, you know, batteries, it doesn't matter what it might be. When you're buying in bulk and you're usually your suppliers's number one customer in the world, you're going to get top flight service. You're going to give access to equipment faster than anybody else, and you're going to get it at a much lower price. And one of the things that we really pride ourselves on at Next Era is our worldass supply chain capability. And we plan ahead. We we always think three steps ahead. We don't wait for提前三步在时间上是多久？
英文原文
>> and three steps that's how long in time.嗯，对我们在供应链端来说，我们现在采购已经排到了2030年。
英文原文
>> Well, for us on the on the supply chain side, I mean, we're already buying through 2030.AI电力需求爆发与能源结构调整
这里的重大变化之一是来自AI的电力需求。你是什么时候开始意识到“嘿，这里正在发生大事情”的？
英文原文
>> One of the big uh changes here have been the electricity demand from AI. When when did that start to dawn on you that hey there is something going on here?大概两三年前。我的意思是，我们确实看到了这种需求开始显现。
英文原文
>> Well about two or three years ago. I mean we really saw that demand start to materialize.那是怎么发生的？当你第一次意识到“哇，这太庞大了”的时候，你人在哪里？嗯，我就坐在我的椅子上，坐在我今天坐的同一个位置。你要知道，从我们当时的立场来看，我们当时更专注于可再生能源和电池储能，但我们对自己说，听着，为了适应即将到来的需求、电力需求，以及数据中心所具备的7×24小时需求……
英文原文
>> How did it when did where were you when you first realized wow this is this is big. Well, I was sitting in my chair in this in the same seat I sit sit in today. And you know from our standpoint at at that point we were really focused more on renewables uh and battery storage but we said look to accommodate the demand and the power demand that's coming and the 24 by7 need that a data center has我们必须确保全面参与能源价值链的所有环节。因此我们重新转向了我们过去做过的事情，我们在建设燃气发电方面可能比美国任何人都拥有更多经验。我们拥有美国最大的燃气发电船队/机组群。我们还在核电领域拥有大量经验，是顶尖的核电运营商之一，拥有最大的核电机组群之一。但是，对于这种电力需求轨迹的彻底转变，最让你吃惊的是什么？对你来说最大的意外是什么？
英文原文
>> we've got to we've got to uh make sure that we are fully um participating in all parts of the energy value chain. So we pivoted back to things that we've done in the past and have we have probably more experience in the United States than anybody in building gas fired generation. We had the largest gas fired uh generation fleet in the US. Uh we also have a substantial amount of experience in nuclear one of the top operators in nuclear have one largest nucle nuclear fleet. What surp But what surprised you the most with this uh total total change in trajectory for electricity demand? What's been the biggest surprise for you?就是它发生得如此之快。
英文原文
>> Just how quickly it's happened. Just告诉我有多快。
英文原文
>> tell me tell me how quickly.嗯，我的意思是，它真切地发生在过去的24个月里，仿佛一夜之间，供电速度至关重要，而我们正是能够满足客户供电速度需求的公司。因为当你身处能源价值链的每一个环节时，我们可以在12个月内建成风电设施，在18个月内建成光伏设施，在15个月内启动并运行电池储能项目。要让一座燃气电厂运转起来可能需要三到四年，但你可以用我刚才提到的其他技术来满足前端的需求。随着我们深入，核电也是一个潜在的可行解决方案……
英文原文
>> Well, I mean it's it's happened really in in the last 24 months overnight and speed to power is critical and we are the company that can meet speed to power demands of our customer because when you're in every part of the energy value chain, we can build wind in 12 months. We can build solar facilities in 18. We can get battery storage projects up and running in 15 months. Might take three or four years to get a gas plant running, but you can meet that front-end demand and need with other technologies that I just mentioned. Nuclear is a potential uh feasible solution as we get但是假设，比方说两年前，你对2030年的需求预期是多少，现在你的预期又是多少？体量大概是多大？
英文原文
>> but let's say but let's say two years ago, what do you expect demand in 2030 to be and what do you expect it to be now? Just what what is the magnitude?来看这个。我大概回到两到三年前，当时我们仍预计需求是停滞的。然后……
英文原文
>> We're looking at this. I'd probably go back two to three years ago, you know, it was still we were anticipating stagnant demand and then真正是在24个月前，我们审视之后感叹：“哇。”当你看AI被客户采用的速度，以及不仅由超大规模云厂商（hyperscalers）而且由数据中心运营商投入该领域的资本开支规模时，需求几乎在一夜之间爆发，变成了到2040年代中期实现六倍增长的预测。而且这不仅来自数据中心，它也来自我们的贸易政策，即我们现在正在将制造业工业基地重新搬回美国本土。它们都在消耗更多的电力。包括液化天然气码头、半导体芯片设施、交通运输，家庭用电量也比过去更多。所以是居民客户，它来自经济的所有部分，尽管数据中心占据了很大一部分关注焦点。
英文原文
>> really 24 months ago, you know, we we looked at it and said, "Wow." I mean when you looked at the pace at which AI was being adopted by customers and the amount of capex that was flowing into the sector uh not only by the hyperscalers but the data center operators you know the the demand ex really exploded overnight and went to a projection of six-fold increase by uh the middle the mid 2040s and it's not just coming from data centers I mean it's also our trade policies where we are now redomemesticating manufacturing industrial bases back to the US. They're all consuming more electricity. It's LG terminals, it's semiconductor chip facilities, it's transportation, homes are using more electricity than they have in the past. So the residential customer so it's coming from all parts of the economy even though data centers get a big part of the focus.数据中心与商业模式边界
你们考虑过收购并持有数据中心吗？要知道，大约三年前，我们开始考虑自己建造数据中心。我们买了两座，纯粹是为了了解它们是如何运作的，规模较小，只是为了了解其商业模式，然后很快意识到我们还是把这块业务留给别人吧。
英文原文
>> Have you thought about buying and owning the data centers? You know, we back about three years ago, we started looking at um building data centers ourselves and you know, we bought a couple just to learn how they operate smaller scale uh just to learn the business model uh and and quickly realized that we'll leave that for somebody else.为什么？
英文原文
>> And why?原因在于，占地面积、技术规范、所使用的芯片以及他们服务的客户类型，对所有客户来说都是不同的。我们想专注于我们的专长，专注于我们最擅长的事情。我们拥有出色的土地开发能力。我们觉得如果只购买发电设施所需的土地，并把建设数据中心的土地一起买下，然后把土地卖给超大规模云厂商——我们做过大量的电力用地转让——然后准备好发电设施与数据中心互联，这样对我们更好。但我们专注于我们最了解的事情，即建设风能、太阳能、电池储能、燃气发电、核能、输配电网、天然气管道，围绕电力开展所有市场营销，因为许多超大规模厂商……
英文原文
>> The reason being that the footprint, the techn the technology specifications, the the chips that were being used, the type of customers that they were serving were different for all for all customers. And we wanted to stick to our knitting, what we were best at, which was, you know, our we have a terrific land development, you know, capability. And we felt like we would be better off just buying the land for the power generation facility and buying the land together for the data center where it would be built and then selling that land to a hyperscaler which we've done a lot of power land sales and then having the generation ready to interconnect to the data center. But focus on you know what we know best which is building wind, solar, battery storage, gas fire generation, nuclear transmission distribution, gas pipelines, doing all the marketing around power because a lot of hyperscalers但你认为这比拥有数据中心是更好的业务吗？
英文原文
>> do you think but do you think that's better business than owning the data centers?我们确实这么认为。
英文原文
>> We do究竟是为什么？
英文原文
>> and just why?嗯，因为当你与超大规模云厂商沟通，坐下来问他们真正想要什么时，他们希望拥有并控制……是的。
英文原文
>> Well, because the hyperscalers when you talk to them and you sit down and you ask them what they really want, they want to own and control Yeah.他们自己的数据中心，因为他们希望拥有安全性，即保护客户数据所需具备的网络安全。他们知道芯片可能会随着时间推移而演变，可能需要更新换代。他们希望在这些数据中心中掌握自己的命运。因此我们专注于此：我们认为通过负责发电设施的建设，同时让超大规模厂商建造他们的数据中心，我们可以获得更多机会，而不是因为坚持两者兼顾而蚕食需求。
英文原文
>> their own data centers because they want the security, the cyber security that goes along with protecting their their data for their customers. They know that chips may evolve over time and may need to be replenished. They want to have have their own control over their own destiny in those data centers. And so we've focused on we think we can get more opportunities out of building the power generation while letting the hyperscalers build build their data centers rather than cannibalizing demand by insisting on building both.基荷电力需求：燃气与核能的角色
你们当初建立公司是基于可再生能源更便宜、更清洁的论点，对吧？然后所有这些需求涌现出来，你们又回过头去做天然气。
英文原文
>> You uh built the company on the argument that renewables were cheaper and cleaner, right? And then all these demand comes along and you go back to doing gas.跟我说说这个。是啊，我的意思是这正是当今市场的需求。当你看数据中心的需求时，他们需要全天候24小时不间断发电。因此，尽管储能技术取得了很大进展——我们今天拥有4小时的储能能力，我们认为可以与太阳能发电设施叠加达到8小时——但这仍然不足以提供7×24小时的基荷发电，来为当今市面上的这些AI训练模型以及智能体AI（Agentic AI）模型供电。因此，你必须拥有这种24小时发电能力，这就需要更多的基荷。而这种基荷来自燃气发电；它未来某天也可能来自核能发电。我认为电池储能将继续取得进步，我们可以将其与……结合起来。
英文原文
>> Tell me about it. Yeah, I mean that's what the market demands today. I mean when you look at what the needs are of a data center, they need roundthe-clock generation. And so while storage has made a lot of advancements, we have today, you know, 4hour storage capability, which we think we could stack get to eight hours together with our solar generation facilities as well. But it's just not enough 247 base load generation to be able to power these, you know, these AI, you know, training training models that they have out there today, the Agentic AI models as well. And so you need to have that that 24-hour generation capability, which requires more base load. And that base load's coming from gas fire generation. It's coming from it could potentially someday come from nuclear fire generation. I think battery storage is going to continue to make uh improvements where we can combine that uh together with what we see from例如，燃气发电的价格大约是太阳能的两倍。
英文原文
>> gas is roughly twice as expensive as solar for instance.是的，实际上比这还要昂贵。我会说它可能是建造太阳能设施成本的两到三倍。
英文原文
>> Yeah, it's actually even more expensive than that. I' got I'd say it's probably two to three times more expensive than than what you could build a solar facility for.与科技巨头的直签合作模式与电价保护
现在，你们直接与超大规模厂商达成交易，对吧？与世界上的谷歌们、Meta们。他们为什么想要直接与你们签约，而不是直接从电网购买电力？
英文原文
>> No, you do deals directly with uh with the uh you know the hyperscalers, right? The with the ghouls and the meters of the world. Um why do they want to contract directly with you rather than just buying electricity off the grid?嗯，有几个原因，但最重要的原因之一是：首先，他们确实希望从电网购买电力，但电网上许多富余的电力供应已经没有了，对吧。
英文原文
>> Well, I mean a a few reasons but you know one of the most important reasons is you know first of all they are looking to buy electricity off the grid but a lot of that excess supply of electricity is gone right.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.其次，超大规模厂商对于从电网获取可能推高散户客户价格的电量非常敏感。他们全都站出来签署了纳税人/用电户保护承诺（ratepayer protection pledge），他们在其中表示：我们将自带发电设施，并使该发电设施与我们自身的数据中心相匹配。这就是与我们合作的超大规模厂商的运作模式。所以他们会说：“嘿，我要在X州建立一个数据中心。我想确保自己拥有能够为此供电的发电机组，这样我就不必拿走原本可以为其他客户服务的容量或电能，从而推高他们的电价。他们今天对此非常敏感。他们希望自带发电设施，以确保自己承担自己的费用。”我们认为我们的商业模式与此完美契合。你也可以看到政府政策也在发生转变。无论你身处哪个州，看看联邦能源监管委员会（FERC）在分析PJM、MISO、SPP以及全美所有不同模型时所做的工作。
英文原文
>> And second, the hyperscaler is very sensitive about taking electrons off the grid that could drive up prices for retail customers. They've all come out, they've all signed a ret, you know, the uh rateayer protection pledge where they've said we're going to bring our own generation and match that generation with our data center. And so the hyperscalers that we deal with, that's their model. So they want if they say, "Hey, I'm going to build a data center in state X. I want to make sure I have generation that can power that so I'm not having to take away from capacity or energy that could otherwise go serve another customer and chase up their power prices. And so they're very sensitive to that today. They want to bring their own generation to make sure they're paying their own way." And we think our business model fits perfectly with that. And you see government policy shifting too. It doesn't matter what state you're in. Look at what uh the FK is doing as they analyze PJM and MYSO and SP and all the different models that we have around the country.它们全都基于并立足于同一件事：如果你要建数据中心，你必须确保为随之而来为该数据中心供电的电力买单。
英文原文
>> They're all based on the and predicated on the same thing which is if you're going to build a data center, you have to make sure you pay for the power that goes along with it to power that data center.数据中心抵制与社区责任
你如何看待针对数据中心的抵制情绪？
英文原文
>> How do you read the backlash against the data centers?嗯，我认为这是双重的，对吧？第一部分是社区关系。
英文原文
>> Well, I I think it's it's twofold, right? I mean, the fir the first piece is uh community relations.我看到一些研究，人们就是不想再住在数据中心旁边了，出于各种原因，他们认为这超级危险。
英文原文
>> I I saw some research. It's just like people so don't want to live next to a data center anymore, and I think it's like super dangerous for whatever reason.我来告诉你情况。我认为整个行业确实在努力改善其形象以及对待社区的方式。与我们合作的超大规模厂商都是非常负责任的开发商。他们进驻时会说：“听着，首先，如果我们来到你们的社区，我们不会使用你们的水资源。我们将使用闭环冷却。我们将使用来自污水处理设施的水。我们将缴纳财产税。我们将遵守噪音和红线退让要求。并且我们将寻找回馈社区的途径。”
英文原文
>> Well, I'll tell you what. I mean, I think we I think the industry is really trying to improve its image and its approach to communities. And so, the hyperscalers that we work with are are really responsible developers. So they're going in and saying, "Look, first of all, if if we're going to come to your community, we're not going to use your water. We're going to use closed loop cooling. We're going to use water from water treatment facilities. We're going to pay our property taxes. We're going to observe noise and setback requirements. And we're going to find ways to give back to the community.你看看这些超大规模厂商所做的一些事情。我以Meta在路易斯安那州的举措为例：向教师回馈5万美元的奖学金，确保协助急救人员，确保对社区进行再投资，并确保帮助在这些社区创造就业机会。从信息传达的角度来看，这极其重要。而第二部分在于，我认为目前关于这些AI模型最终对人们的工作意味着什么存在一些不确定性。
英文原文
>> Uh you know, you look at some of the things that the hypers scholars have done. Meta I'll use as an example of what they've done in Louisiana, giving scholar $50,000 scholarships back to to teachers, making sure they're helping first responders, making sure that they're investing back in the communities, and also making sure that they're helping to create jobs, uh, you know, in these communities. That's super important from a messaging standpoint. Uh and the and the second piece is you know look there's just I think some uncertainty today around the you know uh you know what these AI AI models ultimately could mean for folks jobs.但在NextEra，我所看到的是，随着我们应用人工智能……
英文原文
>> But you know what I've seen at next era is is as we have implemented artificial intelligence它实际上为我们的员工创造了更多的工作。它没有导致裁员。相反，它使我们能够工作得更快，挖掘出更多机会，并能够比以往执行更多的业务。
英文原文
>> it's actually created more work for our people. You know it hasn't resulted in layoffs. Instead, it's resulted in us being able to work faster, unear opportunities, and be able to execute on more business than we ever have before.地缘政治竞争与欧洲定位
在AI驱动因素方面，可能会出什么差错？
英文原文
>> What can go wrong with the uh with the AI driver here?当你退一步，从几个不同的视角来看待这个问题：从地缘政治的角度来看，当我审视AI时，这是我们输不起的领域，对吧？所以当你想到中国、印度或其他经济体在AI领域进行巨额投资时，如果我们作为一个国家直接说“嘿，我们不打算搞这个了”，我们就会允许我们的外国竞争对手在经济上超越我们。他们会在AI上加倍下注。他们的经济将围绕人工智能转型。他们将拥有我们在美国无法拥有的经济机遇。他们将在我们落后的行业中成为领导者。这实际上会导致美国就业机会的减少，因为我们没有跟上技术发展的步伐，将在经济上遭受损失。美国一直能够保持繁荣并成为全球领导者，是因为我们一直是技术领导者。所以放弃将产生巨大的负面影响。
英文原文
>> Well, you know, when you when you step back and you look at it from through a a couple of different lenses from a geopolitical standpoint, when when I look at AI, this is something we can't afford to lose in, right? So when you think about China or India or or other economies making substantial investments in NAI, if we just said, "Hey, we're not going to do it right as a as a country, we would allow our, you know, our foreign competitors to bypass us e economically. They they would double down on AI. Their economies would shift around artificial intelligence. They would have economic opportunities that we wouldn't have here in the US. They'd be leaders in industries that where we would fall behind. It would actually result in a decrease in employment opportunities in the United States because we'd suffer economically because we're not keeping pace with where technology is going. The US has always been able to prosper and be a global leader because we've been a technology leader. So that up would be uh would have a substantial impact.鉴于你刚才所说的，你对欧洲有什么看法？
英文原文
>> So given what you given what you just said, what are your reflections on Europe?嗯，当我观察欧洲时，我们在欧洲没有业务，所以我不是欧洲问题专家，但是……
英文原文
>> Well, you know, when I when I look at Europe, I mean, we don't do business in Europe, so I'm not an expert in Europe, but但你知道它在哪里。
英文原文
>> but you know where you know where it is.我知道它在哪里。我认为欧洲必须从这个视角来看：他们必须确保跟上技术进步的步伐。如果你不跟上技术进步和技术发展的走向，你的经济就会落后。事情就是这么简单。
英文原文
>> I know where it is. And I I think Europe, you know, has to look through the lens of, hey, you know, they've got to make sure that they keep up with technological advancement. If if you don't keep up with technological advancement and where technology is heading, your economy is going to fall behind. I mean, it's it's it's that simple.你提到了地缘政治视角是一个分析维度。还有其他分析方式吗？
英文原文
>> So, you mentioned the geopolitical lens as one lens to look through. Any other ways of analyzing this?有的。地缘政治是一种方式。另一种方式就是我之前所说的。我们必须确保，第一，如果你在建造数据中心——这就是我们在Florida Power & Light和NextEra所做的——数据中心必须承担它们合理的分摊份额。它们必须全额自行承担发电和输电的成本，绝无例外。因此我们签署了用电户保护承诺，表明我们将这么做；Dominion也签署了用电户保护承诺，表明他们将这么做。针对大负荷客户，我们拥有全美最具保护性的电价费率（tariffs）之一。这刚刚在佛罗里达州被编纂入法律。其他州目前也正在做同样的事情。所以第一点，你必须确保保持负责任的态度。如果你在建数据中心，要确保你自己为用电买单，超大规模厂商正在这样做。而从社区关系的角度来看，另一部分就是我刚才提到的：确保使用闭环冷却，使用来自污水处理厂的水，遵守退让距离要求，回馈社区。但我也认为人们有责任帮助对劳动力进行再培训。在这个国家，我们目前也确实非常缺乏技术工人。
英文原文
>> Yeah. I mean, geopolitical is one way. The other way is is what I said before. We have to make sure that you know number one if you're building a data center and this is what we've done you know at Florida Power Light next era is we data centers have to pay their fair share they have to pay their the own cost for generation and transmission full stop right and so we've signed the rateayer protection pledge saying that's what we're going to dominion signed the rateayer protection pledge saying that's what they're going to do we have one of the most protective large load tariffs in the country for customers. It was just codified into a statute in Florida. Other states are doing the same thing right now. So, you've got to make sure number one, you're being responsible. If you're building a data center, make make sure you're paying for your own power and hyperscalers are doing that. And then the other piece of it from a community relations standpoint is what I said earlier. Make sure you're using closed loop cooling, using water from water treatment facilities, observing setback requirements, giving back to community. But I also think it's incumbent on folks to help retrain, you know, the workforce. We're also really short technical workers in this country.如果从现在起五年后，你对需求的预测完全错了……
英文原文
>> If if if five years from now you got the demand picture totally wrong.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.那会是因为什么？
英文原文
>> What would it be because of如果我们彻底预测错了需求？首先，鉴于当前的大趋势，我很难看到这种情况发生。除非出现某种全球性衰退，导致AI领域的支出和投资直接减少。因为这在逻辑上太说得通了。
英文原文
>> if we totally got the demand picture wrong? I I one number one I have a hard time you know seeing just ju just given where you got people where where where things are headed. Yeah. You'd have to have some kind of a global recession where AI spending just decreased and investment in AI um decreased. It just makes it makes too much sense.核电复兴与小型模块化反应堆（SMR）
五年前，你曾想过核电会卷土重来吗？
英文原文
>> Five years ago would you ever have thought that uh nuclear would make a comeback?五年前没想过，但今天我认为会。而且你们拥有相当多的核电站。
英文原文
>> Not five years ago but but today I think and you got you got quite a few of them. You got to quite a few nuclear plants. Um,我们也在对小型模块化反应堆（SMR）进行投资。
英文原文
>> and we're making investments in small modular reactors.确实。不过我们先来谈谈大型核电站。
英文原文
>> Absolutely. But let's do the big ones first.好。
英文原文
>> Yeah.你们有一个大型项目即将重启，谷歌已经达成协议购买未来25年的电力，对吧？
英文原文
>> Uh, no, you have a big one coming up and Google has has made an agreement to buy the power for the next 25 years, right?没错。
英文原文
>> That's right.告诉我，重启一座核反应堆有多难？
英文原文
>> Uh, tell me how difficult is it to restart a nuclear reactor?嗯，我们之前关闭了杜安·阿诺德（Duane Arnold）核电站，但幸运的是，该厂址和设施的保存状况确实非常好。是的，没错。所以我们正在重新进驻。我不想说它比停堆大修更容易，它当然更难。从修复工作的角度来说，我称之为某种“超级停堆大修”。但核心构件都在，核电站的核心机件已经存在了。所以实际工作主要是回去翻新设备，从核燃料的角度给堆芯重新装料，并使其重新运转起来。但核心机件都已就位，这个项目对我们来说进展非常顺利。
英文原文
>> Well, we shut down Dwayne Arnold, but fortunately the the the site and the facility was really left in good shape. Yeah. Right. So, we're going back in uh you know, I don't want to say it's it's it's it's harder than an outage certainly. Yeah. I'd call it, you know, a uh kind of a super outage, right? In terms of the restoration work, but the pieces are there. The nuts and bolts of the of the nuclear plant are already there. So what it really is, it's going back and refurbishing the equipment, making, you know, reloading the core from a fuel, you know, nuclear fuel standpoint and getting it back up up up and running, but the nuts and bolts are already there and and the pro the project's going terrifically for us.跟我说说小型模块化反应堆。
英文原文
>> Tell me about the small the small modular reactors.小型模块化反应堆：有96家原始设备制造商（OEM）声称制造SMR，现在可能更多了。我总是用96这个数字。我们从商业和技术可行性的角度对此进行了重点考察。我们已经将范围缩小到三到四家我们认为未来可能可行的厂商，并且正在对他们进行审慎考察。但尼古拉，小型模块化反应堆的核心问题在这里：谁来承担最后一美元的风险（last dollar risk）？我们不会把这个风险转嫁给我们的客户，对吧？但如果我们能把几个不同的钱包汇集在一起——我们的钱包，也许我们会承担一点点风险，但不会太多，必须有上限。
英文原文
>> Small modular reactors. There's 96 OEMs in it that in it that claim to manufacture SMRs, probably more today. I always use the word the the the 96 number. We've focused on that from a commercial and and technical feasibility stand. We've we've called that down to three or four that we think might be viable going forward and we're taking a hard look at them. But but here's the issue, Nikolai, on small modular reactors. Who's going to take the last dollar risk? We're not going to put that on our customers, right? But if we can bring a number of different wallets together, our wallet, right? Maybe maybe we'll put a little bit, you know, at risk, not much. It has to be capped.这必须对我们的股东来说是合情合理的。我们不会去承担巨大风险……
英文原文
>> It has to be sensible for our shareholders. We're not going to we're not going to take a lot of risk因为我们并不真正知道最终造价是多少，对吧？
英文原文
>> because we don't because we don't really know what they're going to close, do you?你不知道最终成本会是多少。
英文原文
>> You don't know what the end cost is going to be.超大规模厂商，如果那是你的客户，必须承担一部分风险；EPC总承包商必须承担一部分风险；拥有这项技术的OEM厂商最终应该承担风险，但很多时候他们资本金不足，承担不起，所以他们实际能承担的份额存在上限；然后是联邦政府，联邦政府如何介入并提供支持，将在由谁来承担最后一美元风险方面起到至关重要的作用。
英文原文
>> The hypers scale scaler, if that's your customer, would have to take some risk. the EPC contractor would have to take some risk. The OEM, right, whose technology it is, should ultimately take the risk. Many times they're under capitalized and can't. And so there's a limit on how much they can actually take. And then the federal government, how the federal government come in and and help out is going to be an important part on who takes last dollar risk.你认为我们什么时候能把这些SMR建好并运行起来？嗯，我的意思是，现在大家在某种程度上都还在试探、摆弄这项技术，无论是三代还是四代技术。我们更关注三代，因为四代不仅存在技术风险，还伴随着核燃料风险。但这两种我们都会考察。但要跨越首台套（first of a kind）阶段，我认为真的需要联邦政府在一定程度上介入托底，以帮助过渡到第N台套（Nth of a kind）。但每个人都必须凑一点份子。不过再次强调，如果你是NextEra，你是一家开发商，你愿意承担的风险是有限的。我不会为了从未验证过的技术而让我股东的利益处于险境。所以你必须找到人来承担最后一笔风险。一旦我们明确了这一点——我们正在为此努力工作，而且现任政府一直非常支持——那么你就有真正的机会、切实可行的机会实现第N台套。但我仍然认为，在达到那个节点之前，时间表要看到下个年代的中期甚至更晚。
英文原文
>> When do you think we'll have these up and running? Well, I mean, right now, everybody's sort of, you know, I want to say kind of toying around with the with the technology and whether it's Gen 3 or Gen 4 technology. We're more focused on the Gen 3 because the Gen 4 has not only the technology risk, but the nuclear fuel risk that goes along with it. But we look at both. And but to get past first of a kind, it's going to take really I think the federal government stepping up to to some extent to help backs stop these to help get to an inth of a kind. But everybody's going to have to chip in a little bit. But again, you know, if you're a next era and you're a developer, there's only so much you're willing to put at risk. I'm not going to put my shareholders at risk for a technology that's never worked before. Uh so you've got to find somebody to take that last RS once once we identify that and we're working hard on that and you know this administration's been extremely supportive. Uh then you have a real chance a viable chance of getting to uh inth of a kind but I still think you're looking at the middle of the next decade to later uh before before you get to that point.领导力哲学与团队反驳文化
约翰，对你而言，什么是好的领导力？
英文原文
>> John for you what is good leadership?好的领导力首先意味着为你的团队制定一个良好的战略。你必须确保对想要实现的目标拥有愿景，并且必须确保它是易于理解和消化的。第二，在带领团队时，你必须具备卓越的价值观和道德水准。团队必须信任你，他们必须相信眼前的领导者，才会全力支持，对吧？所以这一点极其重要。第三，我经常对我的团队讲这一点：如果你想晋升到领导岗位，你必须确保身边聚集着优秀的人才。你必须真正了解自己擅长什么，不擅长什么。有些人对自己有清醒的认识，有些人则没有。
英文原文
>> Good leadership means, you know, number one, setting a, you know, a a a good strategy, right, for your team. You you've got to make sure that you have a vision for what it is you want to accomplish. And you have to make sure it's understandable and digestible. Two, you've got to have great values and great ethics, right? in terms of leading a team. A team has to trust you and they have to believe in the leader that is in front of them to get behind them, right? And so that's extremely important. Three, and I tell my team this all the time, if you want to rise up to a leadership position, you've got to make sure that you surround yourself with great people. You have to really understand what you're good at and what you're not so great at. And some people some people have have have a good understanding of that, others others don't.你特别擅长什么？
英文原文
>> What are you what are you particularly good at?嗯，我认为我擅长同时处理很多事情。我认为我非常擅长为股东的利益进行资本配置，这是我工作的另一个关键部分。还有管理利益相关方。当你是CEO时，你拥有许多不同的利益相关方群体，你必须能够同时有效地管理他们以推进战略。第四，我认为我擅长确立我们公司能够遵循的良好愿景和战略。我们去年提出了“12种增长路径”（12 ways to grow）。我认为这是一个非常清晰明确的战略，过去12个月里我们在其中取得了很大进展，我对此非常高兴。我认为这方面运转得相当好。
英文原文
>> Well, I I think I'm good at handling a lot of things at once, right? I think I'm I'm very good at uh allocating capital, right, for the for the benefit of shareholders, which is, you know, another another key part of my job. Managing stakeholders. Yeah. I mean, when you're a CEO, you have a number of different stakeholder groups that you have to be able to manage effectively at once to to drive a strategy. Fourth, I think I'm good at at at setting a a good vision and a strategy that our company can follow. We came out with the 12 ways to grow last year. I think it's a very crisp strategy that we've been able to make, you know, a lot of headway on, you know, over the last uh 12 months that I'm very happy about. And uh you know I think I think that's gone quite quite well.你正在努力改进什么？
英文原文
>> What are you working to improve?我每天都在努力改进各项事情。如果在当今这个充满动态变化、事物瞬息万变的世界里，你觉得自己已经把所有事情都彻底搞定了，那我告诉你……
英文原文
>> I'm working to improve things every day. I mean if you don't if you don't think you're uh you've got it all nailed down in this world with as as dynamic as it is today and as quickly as things are changing. I'll tell you what.但如果你必须指出具体的一件事呢？
英文原文
>> But if you have to point to one thing嗯，那就是跟上变化的步伐，以及持续不断扑面而来的所有信息流。
英文原文
>> well you know look I mean it's just keeping up with the pace of change and and all the information flow that continues to to come at to come at you.你喜欢变化吗？我喜欢。我热爱变化，在变化中茁壮成长。我在那种环境中如鱼得水，因为你知道吗？我认为NextEra最大的优势之一就是我们从变化和风险中发掘机遇的能力。
英文原文
>> Do you like change? I do. I love change. I thrive in change. I thrive in a I thrive in environments that because you know what? I think one of the greatest strengths of Next Era is our ability to find opportunities out of change and out of risk.你们比其他公用事业公司更擅长应对变化吗？
英文原文
>> Are you better at change than other utilities?是的。
英文原文
>> Yes.详细说说。
英文原文
>> Tell me.嗯，我认为是因为：第一，我们从不仅仅活在当下，我们总是在思考三到五年后的事情。我要求我自己和我的领导团队——例如，我们会做一份10年的预测。在我的行业里，我想不出还有哪家公司……
英文原文
>> Well, I think it's because, you know, one, we're never living in just today. We're always thinking about three to five years out. I force my myself and my leadership team. We do a 10-year forecast, for example, right? There's I I can't think of another能做五年的都很少，更别说十年了。
英文原文
>> uh company in my industry that maybe does a fiveyear let alone.你认为做10年的预测可行吗？我有些觉得……
英文原文
>> You think it's possible to do a 10 year for goals. I kind of think事情确实会发生改变，但当你处于长生命周期的资本投资周期中时……
英文原文
>> well things will change, but when you're in a long life capital investment cycle,我今天下的赌注，其中一些甚至要到第五年才会投产上线。然后你必须考虑，如果我在第二年进行投资，在第六年、第七年或第八年会是什么样子？我们不可能全部预测正确，但我可以告诉你，围绕这一点展开的深思熟虑使我们在竞争中处于有利位置，能够年复一年取得成功。并且能够让我们在今天采取必要的步骤，以便在未来的第六年、第七年、第八年、第九年取得成功。因为在这个行业里，如果你不提前规划，你就会被淘汰。
英文原文
>> the bet the bets I'm making the day, some of those aren't even coming online till year five. Then you've got to think about, well, if I'm making an investment in year two, what does that look like in year six or seven or eight? We won't get it all right, but I'll tell you what, the the thinking that we do around it positions us competitively to be successful year in and year out. And to be able to take the steps we need to take today to be successful in year six, seven, eight, nine down the road because this is an industry where if you don't plan ahead, you'll get killed.个人成长与职业路径
在你的人生经历中，是否有塑造你领导风格的经验？
英文原文
>> M have you had experiences during your life which has which have informed your leadership style?绝对有，绝对有。
英文原文
>> Uh definitely definitely.哪些是比较重要的？
英文原文
>> What are the important ones?对我来说，首先，我的职业生涯起步于金融、经济和银行业，但后来转向了法律，获得了税法硕士学位。我很幸运早在2002年职业生涯早期就来到了NextEra。截至今年7月，我在公司已经待了24年了。但我在公司能够取得的最棒的事情之一，就是能够做很多不同的事情。进入公司后，NextEra做得非常出色的一点就是进行人员轮岗……
英文原文
>> Well, I mean you know for me you know first of all um I started my career uh you know in finance, economics, banking but then I shifted to law got my masters in tax law and I was was fortunate enough to come to next era early early in my career back in you know 2002. who have been at the company what 24 years, you know, now this last July. Uh, but one of the greatest things that I've been able to um, you know, achieve at the company is being able to do a lot of different things, right? So, coming into the company, one of the great things Next Era does is it moves people around,关键在于走出舒适区、不畏惧承担新挑战和新任务的能力。我在公司先后担任过12个不同的职位……
英文原文
>> you know, but it's been the ability to step out of my comfort zone and not be afraid to take on new challenges and new tasks. I've had 12 different jobs从我刚进公司时的一名普通业务线律师，一路晋升到今天执掌这家公司。
英文原文
>> at the company as I rose from being a, you know, a line lawyer when I first came in to running the company today.我的意思是，税务律师。你的兄弟是一名飞行员。没错。听起来是不是更有意思？
英文原文
>> I mean, tax tax lawyer, your brother is a a pilot. That's right. Doesn't that sound more more like more fun?是孪生兄弟。
英文原文
>> Twin brother.确实是。
英文原文
>> Yeah, exactly.孪生兄弟是飞行员。所以如果你乘坐西南航空（Southwest），抬头往前看发现驾驶舱有个人长得像我，别惊慌，飞机能平稳落地的。
英文原文
>> Twin brother is a pilot. So, if you're flying Southwest and you look up front and you see a guy that looks like me, don't get concerned. The the plane will land.当你遇到困难卡住时，会向谁求助？
英文原文
>> Who do you call when you're stuck?首先，我身边有一群非常优秀的人。我的团队非常出色。这就是我之前谈到领导风格时的核心：确保你身边围绕着那些敢于反驳你的人。我们在NextEra建立了一种我坚信的文化：我不在乎屋子里坐的是谁。如果你认为我说的某句话很愚蠢、很荒谬，或者我没有考虑到某件事，或者我有盲点，我不在乎你是一个25岁刚从MBA项目出来的职场新人，还是一个在公司工作了20年的资深员工。直接反驳我，告诉我你认为我遗漏了什么。让我们展开这场辩论。
英文原文
>> Uh you know look you know number one I've got great people around me uh you know my team is just terrific you know and and that's the key what I said earlier I think about leadership style is you know making sure you have great people around you that aren't afraid to to push back and we've been able to set a culture that I firmly believe in at Next Era which is I don't care who I'm in a room with. If you think something I've said is stupid or dumb or I haven't thought about something or I have a blind spot, I don't care if you're a 25year-old, you know, newbie out of an NBA program or you're somebody who's been with the with the uh company for 20 years. Push back and and and you know, tell me what you think I'm missing. Let's have that debate. But你会请求帮助吗？
英文原文
>> do you ask for help?抱歉，什么？
英文原文
>> Pardon me.你会请求帮助吗？
英文原文
>> Do you ask for help?我会请求帮助。我向我的团队求助。我有一个可以请教的导师网络。我们的前董事长兼CEO吉姆·罗伯（Jim Robo）是我的密友；我们的前CFO莫里·杜赫斯特（Morry Dewhurst），我曾在他手下工作，他帮助培训了我胜任那个职位；前CEO兼董事长卢·海（Lou Hay）。我们在NextEra拥有一个优良传统，即始终与过去的领导者保持联系。因此，如果我需要找人探讨事情，想要获取公司外部的视角，我可以通过这些导师来实现。但我身边始终有一群优秀的人。
英文原文
>> I do ask for help. I ask for help from my team. I have a mentor network that I I go to. Uh our former chairman and CEO, Jim Robo, you know, is a close friend of mine. Mory Doohurst, our former CFO, who I came up, you know, behind who helped train me into that role. Uh Lou Haye, one of our former CEOs and chairman. We we have a great tradition at Next Era of uh continuing to keep in touch with our past leaders. So if I need uh to bounce something off of somebody that you know I want a perspective that might be outside of the company I can do that through those mentors but I have great people around me.企业文化与自下而上的创新
你如何定义公司文化？
英文原文
>> How do you define the how do you define the copa culture?这种文化就是持续改进。在这个行业里我们从不止步，绝对不能安于现状。如果一个行业发展得像现在这样迅速，并且不断被技术所颠覆，你一旦停滞不前，就承受不起固步自封的代价。你必须不断挑战自己。
英文原文
>> Well the culture is one of continuous improvement. We never settle never ever settle in this business. You can't if you turn around with with an industry that's growing as fast as it is that's constantly being disrupted by technology. You can never afford to sit on your laurels. You have to constantly be challenging yourself.你们具体是怎么做的？因为通常情况下，企业规模变大后官僚主义滋生，效率会慢下来。
英文原文
>> And how do you how do you do that? Because you know typically you have bureaucracy building up things are slowing down.是的。尼古拉，我们做得最出色的事情之一，就是每年都会推行一个项目。我们从2013、2014年左右就开始推行了。它曾被命名为Accelerate、Momentum和Velocity。今年我们将其称为Rewire（重构），因为它是围绕利用技术重构公司而建立的，比如重新思考我们所有的业务流程，以及如何利用人工智能来提高效率、生产力，并在我们的业务中激发更深入的思考。在发掘大量潜在成本节约机会方面，我们取得了极佳的成果。但从文化层面来说，其独特之处在于：这些项目我们每年开展一次，其成果会直接输入到年底的战略会议和财务规划中。
我们直接走向员工，对他们说：“听着，这不是自上而下的。你们每天都在一线工作。你们知道我们哪里做得好，哪里做得不够好。由你们把点子带给我们。”因此，我们挑战团队去开拓思维，思考如何更好地经营这项业务。我们从中获得的想法令人惊叹，完全是现象级的构想。
英文原文
>> Yeah. You you know one of you know one of the greatest things that we do Nikolai is we have a program that we run every year. We've been running it since 2013 2014. It was called accelerate and momentum and velocity. This year we called it rewire because it was built around rewiring the company around technology like rethinking all of our business processes and how artificial intelligence could be utilized to drive efficiency and productivity and better thinking around around our business. And we did a terrific job of of getting substantial amount of potential savings opportunities out of that. But here's what's different culturally about that. those programs which we run once a year that feed into our strategy session and our financial planning at the end of the year.We go to our employees and we say, "Look, this is not top down. You do your job every single day. You know what we're doing well and you know what we're not doing so well. You bring the ideas to us." And so we challenged the team to open up their thinking about how to run the business better. It is amazing the ideas that we get out of that. Just absolutely phenomenal thinking. And
他们是给你发邮件吗？他们是如何沟通的？
英文原文
>> do they send you emails? So how do they communicate?不，是通过正式流程。每个业务组都会被召集到执行指导委员会面前，向我们推介他们的所有构想。他们按业务部门带来数百个点子，包括发电部门、输电部门等。你们会采纳其中的一部分构想吗？
英文原文
>> No, it's through a formal process. So every group is called in in front of an executive steering committee and they pitch to us all their ideas and they come in with hundreds of ideas by business unit, our power generation division, our transmission. Do you pick up on some of the ideas?哦，绝对会。我们会采纳并落实这些想法，因为所有这些点子都会带来资本节省和运维（O&M）成本节省。它们被纳入我们的财务计划，形成具体执行的目标。但你知道这样做的好处是什么吗？它赋予我们的员工权力，让他们理解并相信自己是我们公司财务成果的一部分。他们是客户成果的一部分。这建立了一种主人翁意识和创业精神，这种精神不是强加的，它是自然生长并内化为公司文化的一部分。对于我们这种规模的企业来说，这是非常罕见的。自2002年我最初来到公司以来，我们从未丧失过那种创业精神和锐气，我认为这是非常关键的一部分。
英文原文
>> Oh, absolutely. Right. Oh, we we incorporate those ideas and we capture them because all of them come with capital savings on and M savings and they get folded into our financial plan and it's a go do and a go-get group. But you know what it does is it empowers our people to understand and believe they are a part of the financial outcomes for our company. They're part of the customer outcomes for the it establishes ownership and an entrepreneurial spirit that isn't that you know that isn't forced that grows and it's naturally there and naturally part of the culture of the company which is unusual for a company the size of our business. We've never lost that entrepreneurial spirit and edge that we had when I first came to the company back in 2002 and I think that's a big part of it.海外失败的教训与“试水”策略
非常令人印象深刻。人们不仅喜欢听成功经验，也想了解失败。你认为你个人最大的失败是什么？
英文原文
>> Yeah. Very very impressive. Now uh people like to hear not only about successes but also about failures. What what would you say is your biggest personal failure?我不知道这算个人层面的还是公司层面的，但你知道，我们行业内的很多公司都曾冒险走出国门，对吧？你刚才提到了欧洲。我们在2012年左右曾进军西班牙，当时认为去那里投资是个好主意。当时的国家风险评级，我记得标普全球评级将其列为全球第七或第八大风险最低的国家。
英文原文
>> Well, you know, I don't know if it's personal or company or what, but you know, we a lot of companies our business have ventured outside of the United States, right? You mentioned Europe earlier and one of the ventures that we had was was into Spain back in, you know, 2012 and we thought it was going to be a good idea to invest there. Um the country risk at the time was I think the S&P global rating was the seventh or eighth least risky country country in the world.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.当时美国排在第18位。
英文原文
>> The United States at that time was 18th因为西班牙当时经济确实非常繁荣。对。
英文原文
>> because Spain Spain was really booming at the time. Right.当时确实在蓬勃发展，但后来陷入了衰退，欧洲对此体会尤为明显。西班牙大幅削减了上网电价补贴（feed-in tariff），这影响了我们在那里建设的几个太阳能项目。而我当时正是处理这些项目善后清算（workout）的负责人。所以我去了那里，我们把事情妥善解决了，最终结果还算不错。
英文原文
>> was booming at the time, but then we had, you know, we went into, you know, a a recession and, you know, particularly, you know, Europe felt that and there was a significant reduction to the feed and tariff in Spain and so it, you know, impacted a couple of the solar projects that we were building over there and I was really the workout, you know, person, you know, on those on those projects. So went there and and we worked it out and and you know things um things ended up in in a fine place.但再也没有向欧洲投资更多资金。
英文原文
>> But never but never but never investing more in Europe.但再也没向欧洲投资。再也没有在欧洲做增量投资。这些都是你在前行过程中学到的教训。你不可能把每件事都做得尽善尽美。我们作为一家公司一直做得很好的一点，就是我的前任吉姆·罗伯过去常说的“试水”（toe in the water）策略。我们会考察新行业；如果看到趋势偏向某个方向，认为需要在一个领域确立领导地位，我们就会下注。但我们不会过度押注。我们会先进行小额的试水投资，但如果我们受挫，可以迅速撤退。正如老话所说，如果要失败，就快速失败，对吧？确实如此。从错误中吸取教训，不要害怕承认自己错了，然后继续前行。
英文原文
>> But never investing more in Europe. Never investing more in Europe. And those are lessons that you learn as you go along. You're not always going to get everything perfectly right. One of the things that we've always done as a company, I think well is what um Jim Robo, you know, my predecessor used to describe as a toe in the water approach. And so we will look at new industries. We will we will make bets um if we think think we need to establish a leadership position in an area because we see um things gravitating to towards one direction or another. But we won't overcommit. And so we'll we'll we'll take make a little toe in the water investment, but if we get hurt, we can pull right back. And and if you're going to fail, as the old saying goes, fail fast, right? Absolutely. and learn from your mistakes mistakes and don't be afraid to admit that you were wrong and move on.个人生活、精力管理与对年轻人的建议
有什么是大多数人不知道的关于你的事？
英文原文
>> What's something about you that most people don't know?首先，我和我的家人关系极其紧密。我是一个“家庭第一”的人，我的孩子们对我来说意味着一切，我的妻子也是如此。我和家庭非常亲近。我是个双胞胎，正如你之前说的，我的孪生兄弟是西南航空的飞行员。所以我一直习惯于在紧密的家庭网络中长大。因此家庭对我来说就是一切。这深刻影响了我的领导风格以及我对待工作的方式。因为……
英文原文
>> Well, you know, one, I'm extremely close to my family. I I am a family first person and um you know, my children mean absolutely everything to me and my wife uh as well. Extremely, you know, close to my family. I'm a twin. you know, I grew up as a, as you said said earlier, he's a pilot with uh w with Southwest. And so, you know, I've always been used to being growing up in a tight, you know, family network. So, family means everything to me. It really impacts my leadership style in the way I approach the job because我总是对我手下的员工说……
英文原文
>> what I always tell folks that work for me is is确保分清主次，摆正优先事项……
英文原文
>> make sure you get your priorities right你的第一优先事项应该是你的家庭。对我来说也是如此。
英文原文
>> and your number one priority should be your family. It is for me. My我们如何从你支配时间的方式中看出这一点？
英文原文
>> And how do we see that? How do we see that from how you spend your time?我是一个工作狂，我承认这一点。我几乎是一周工作七天。但我总是努力在周末或晚间抽出时间陪伴家人，和孩子们待在一起。“今天过得怎么样？发生了什么？”参与他们的生活。我认为我很好地平衡了这一点。但你必须对自己的每周安排非常严谨且有规划，提前规划好一周，并确保为自己留出一些时间。如果你不这样做，你就会职业倦怠（burn out）。如果你倦怠了，你对任何人都负不起责任。
英文原文
>> Well, I mean, I'm a workaholic. I will admit I I will admit that. I've worked pretty much seven days a week. But I always try to carve out time over the weekend or some time at night to just be with my family, be with my kids. How'd your day go? What's going on? Be a part of their lives. And I think I've done a good job of being able to balance that. But you have to be very deliberate and intentional about your week and how you plan your week out and making sure that you take some time out for yourself. If you don't, you're going to burn out. And if you burn out, you're not going to be doing anybody any justice. And I'm a big避免职业倦怠的关键是什么？
英文原文
>> What's the key? What's the key not to burning out?对我来说是锻炼。我锻炼不是为了减肥，而是为了管理压力。
英文原文
>> Well, for me is, you know, it's exercise. I mean, I'm, you know, I don't exercise to lose weight. I exercise to manage stress.你多久锻炼一次？
英文原文
>> How often do you exercise?每天。
英文原文
>> Every day.你做什么运动？
英文原文
>> What do you do?跑步、骑车、游泳，我和私人教练一起训练。
英文原文
>> I run. I bike. I swim, you know, um I work out with a personal trainer.你几点起床？
英文原文
>> When do you wake up?我每天5点半起床。
英文原文
>> Uh I'm up 5:30 every day.你在早晨训练吗？
英文原文
>> And do you train in the morning?每天早晨。如果我早晨没练完，那你绝不会想待在我身边。那就是我的释放途径。在我没有锻炼的日子里，你是能一眼看出来的。
英文原文
>> Every morning. If I don't get it done in the morning, boy, you don't want to be around me. That's my That's my outlet. You could tell you you could tell on the days that I don't I don't work out.你阅读吗？
英文原文
>> Do you read?我阅读很多身处我这个职位的人都会读的内容。我不是为了消遣而阅读，因为我总是在不断阅读行业相关的资讯。现在很多阅读我都用AI辅助，我们很多人都这么做。
英文原文
>> I you know, I read all the things that a lot of folks in my position read, right? I'm not a a reader for enjoyment because I have I'm constantly reading whether it's um things on the industry. Yeah, I use AI now for a lot of it. I mean, let's a lot of us do that.你放什么类型的音乐？
英文原文
>> What kind of music do you play?我热爱音乐，各种各样的类型。我自己不演奏乐器，但我喜欢听。我听爵士乐，会听轻摇滚、另类音乐等等，凡是你能叫得出名字的。我真的很喜欢各种不同类型的流派，从不拘泥于某一种。所以如果我给你看我的Spotify播放列表，里面的风格非常杂乱。
英文原文
>> Uh I love music. All all kinds. I don't play music, but what what I love to listen to is I listen to jazz. Um you know, I'll listen to soft rock. Uh al alternative music. I mean, you name it. I really like all all different types of genres and so I don't ever really get stuck on one thing. So if I showed you my Spotify playlist, it's kind of all over the place. But你觉得你的Spotify歌单会体现出什么样的年龄？
英文原文
>> what kind of age do you think your Spotify list will show?我觉得大家很难猜出我的年龄。有些人可能会猜快70岁了，另一些人可能会猜我刚20出头。确实涵盖了这种跨度。
英文原文
>> Uh I think it would show People would have a hard time no uh guessing how old I am. Some people may say um you know late 60s, others may say I'm early 20s. I mean, it really is that kind of a实际是57岁。
英文原文
>> and a 5756岁。
英文原文
>> 50 56.最后，约翰，你对年轻人有什么建议？
英文原文
>> Um, lastly, John, what's your advice to young people?我对年轻人的建议是：尽你所能去拓展你的技能工具箱。我的具体含义是——我也总是对新入职的员工这么讲，比如我刚刚和我们实习生班级交流完——当你在挑选工作地点时，你面临着选择：你可以选择去一个地方工作纯粹因为那是你当下想要的工作；或者你可以选择去一个地方，因为你真正想在那里建立一份职业生涯。我总是鼓励大家不要太在意自己接下的第一份工作。只需确保谨慎选择一个能随着你兴趣扩展而允许你拓展并接下新职务的平台。
我在NextEra就是这一点的真正受益者。吸引我来到NextEra的原因之一在于，当我们招聘人才进来时，你很少会在被聘用的岗位上待超过一两年。你将在公司内部轮岗，迎接各种不同类型的挑战和经历，因为唯有这样才能培养出全面的领导者。唯有这样才能塑造出能够为业务战略思考贡献力量的思想者：我们正在走向何方？我们哪些做对了？哪些做错了？我们希望员工能够独立思考，在文化上敢于反驳。这是我们在公司成功建立起来的一种文化。去一个能够发展你长远事业的地方，因为我向你保证，你的兴趣一定会改变。如果当初我加入NextEra时，他们强迫我在整个职业生涯中都只当一名律师，我几十年前就已经离开这家公司了。但我坚持留了下来，因为我热爱在这里工作，热爱它每天带来的挑战，我也非常赞赏公司拥抱变革，并在员工身上拥抱变革、让他们去尝试所有不同类型的事情。
英文原文
>> My advice to young people is do everything that you can to expand your toolkit. And here's what I mean by that is, and I always tell new recruits this, like I'm just getting off of our, you know, talking to our intern class. When you're looking to pick a pick where to work, you you have a choice, right? You could pick a place to work because that's the job you want, or you could pick a place to work because you really want to build a career. I always encourage folks to don't worry too much about the first job that you take. Just make sure you're careful to go to a place that will allow you to expand as your interest expands and take on new jobs. I was a real real beneficiary of that at Next Era. And one of the things that attracted me to Next Era was we h we hire people in. Rarely will you stay in the job you were hired to do for more than a year or two. You're going to get moved around the company and have all different types of challenges and experiences because that's how you round out leaders. That's how you round out folks that are thinkers that can contribute to um the strategic thinking of the business. Where are we heading? What are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? We want people that can think on their own two feet, that aren't afraid to push back culturally. That's quite a culture that we've been able to establish at the at the company, but go to a place that's going to develop your career because I guarantee your interests are going to change. Had I gone in the next area, they would have forced me to be a lawyer my entire career. I would have left the company, you know, decades ago. But I stayed with it because I love working there and I love the challenge it brings every day and I love the fact that they the company embraced change and embrace change in their employees and letting them do all different types of things.约翰，作为股东，我们非常庆幸你没有一直做税务律师，而是成为了CEO。非常感谢你。
英文原文
>> Well, Jon, as shareholders, we are very happy you didn't remain a tax lawyer and that you instead became the the CEO. Big, thank you.感谢你们的辛勤付出。非常享受这次对话，谢谢。
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英文原文
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