hi everyone today I'm in this seriously good company with Marcus wenberg who is the chair of SCB Banking and vice chair of investor AB both really important companies in the wenberg family now for those of you are not familiar with the wenberg they control and have influence over companies such as Erikson Atlas Copco electrox asra ABB SC bankin and this journey started back in 1850 incredible so Marcus what a pleasure to have you here thank you it's great to be here with you.

Now for those of you are not familiar with the wenberg they control and have influence over companies such as Erikson Atlas Copco electrox asra ABB SC bankin and this journey started back in 1850 incredible so Marcus what a pleasure to have you here.

Thank you it's great to be here with you.

What's the key to survive for have 175 years?

Uh I'm well there are many aspects of course uh with that but uh perhaps the most important thing or one of the most important things would be that you are ready to adapt with the times I think that is a very important part of it.

And what's been the most important adaptions you've done you think?

Well, you know, I I think that if you think about 175 years back, uh you will of course very quickly come to such things as dramatic technological change, uh gone through the times of the steam engine, the electrification, now we have the internet that we just passed, now we're in the age of AI, so the wish and the drive to change with the times is in very very important aspect.

What part of the wenberg Legacy are you the most proud of?

The fact uh that we are able to um be here as a family uh to work together in our family is very important um I think that is uh perhaps one of the uh things that we can be proud of that we've been able uh throughout the generations to do that.

Uh I think also that we have the possibility uh to not only work with companies but also to support uh research and education uh is an important aspect of what has been done.

Capitalism looks very different in the Nordic countries so in Denmark you have foundations in Norway the state is very important uh with part ownerships and in Sweden of course you and a couple of other families are very important for long-term ownership so how do you how do you look at yourself are you uh you know are you an owner or do you feel like more like a prime minister uh just how do you how do you look at yourself uh I mean you're much more important than the prime minister.

No I would not say so in these times I would tell you that democracy is an extremely important thing that we should be uh guarding carefully.

I think about it as two dual tracks from an ownership side uh being a steward of of corporations that we try to work very closely with uh where we have a financial interest uh in order to create value over time and develop them uh be close to them so we can see that they they stay competitive in a very in a dramatically changing world.

Uh on the second track uh doing what you're saying about the foundations U supporting um these foundations who are giving uh a substantial amount of money to Swedish universities primarily uh for the betterment of Sweden which is in turn I think helps uh Sweden as a very small country in in in the view of this large world uh to try to stay competitive in certain Fields.

How important are these foundations for you personally and for and for the people who work in all these companies?

I think there are many many uh of the um colleagues who actually are quite happy with that uh the dividends that come out of these companies actually go back uh for a good cause.

Uh and uh for us and the family it's very important it helps us to stay uh a bit closer to what goes on in science and technology to see what is about to come uh which I think is in in when you think about it in that you're adapting with the world that is an important input to that equation.

You have saying that you want to do things without being seen publicly too much to be not seem to be yeah what's the thinking behind this?

It was my great-grandfather who who uh adopted that saying uh I think he pointed to what is something we think is very important namely um we should uh really work as a family to do things that will have a good impact but the most important is perhaps not that you're standing in the front line but that you actually uh support that these things are happening.

Well you on the front line now in this podcast.

Yes uh I am and uh I think you are uh doing something quite interesting uh since you're using your time to spread the word about different companies and individuals that's an interesting aspect of your job.

Yeah and we are very keen to learn from how you're doing things because I do think we need to extend the time Horizon for planning we need to be more long-term and act more like owners rather than than investors which is why we are here.

How would you uh characterize the wenberg culture or is there such a thing as a Wallenberg culture?

We hope hope there is uh a set of values that is very important to us as a family you just mentioned the long-term aspect uh to stay with the companies try to be supportive uh of them for a long time see a change in these companies to be really competitive.

Uh we talk a lot about the uh future proofing of companies which basically means uh today we're we're looking very much at the people question we think that is extremely important we look at uh companies and their ability to innovate and not the least also with sustainability.

And uh last but not least I would say the demands on all companies to understand their data and Ai and cyber strategies.

Now you run um this uh in a way together with your cousin um how were you groomed to take over this for instance we had John alen on uh while back he was told that he should take it over when he was like 22 or something right yeah now how old were you when you knew that you would have this incredible responsibility?

Well I I think that uh we U uh in our generation we were always told by the older generation that just because your name is wenberg you don't get a free ride so uh a lot of focus for us was on learning uh on uh doing uh work within different companies over time uh work hard uh be interested um do a good job very important.

Who told you this?

I think uh both uh my grandfather and uh my uh uncle was very strong in that so it's uh it's really about learning it's about uh showing that you have the interest and also to perform.

Is it a burden?

Uh if you don't like it it can be a burden.

What is it that you like?

Lot of satisfaction getting when you see that companies are developing uh then uh when we can see that actually uh the work we do with the universities is actually moving things forward and if you can add to both these companies and to society.

No I always admired um Swedish companies because they are just very very impressive what do you think what is it with um Sweden which explains this success or or is there something Swedish in it?

Uh I don't know if it's a Swedish trade but I I I think that as a country Sweden uh has always been very dependent on trade uh if you want to do trade you have to be competitive uh if you want to be competitive as a small country you have to innovate uh so this is something that I think Swedish companies have been forced to understand and to deal with over a long time.

We are small countries um that means that you cannot assume that you'll get all the attention that maybe you would like so you really have to build the trust you have to be cost uh effective and you have to innovate.

But you managed to create some world leaders in initially in relatively small niches and then they have expanded the niches right um.

Absolutely expanded their Technologies expanded you know some Acquisitions as well of course over time uh being very International most of these companies have less than 10% of their business in Sweden and uh that means that you really have to understand the International markets you have to rely on free trade which is a perhaps not an obvious question today.

No uh and uh that you can as I said earlier stay uh competitive in the sense that you can adapt to the different markets and in needs over time.

When you look at the Norwegian industrial base what Reflections do you have?

I think that countries have a tendency to to uh work more and more with things that comes natural to them you have very strong Industries in terms of your natural resources and fishing for example uh I'm sure that uh there are areas other areas that Norway uh could and will develop over time such as for example you know I'm involved with the the private Equity business eqt they're quite active here there are number of startups in Oslo that or in in in the in Norway that are very interesting companies so it's there there are definitely possibilities.

Marcus can there be such a thing as too much responsibility in too few hands?

Yes you you're touching something that is very very important uh because you you responsibility of course have to uh be adapted to what can be done in a in a in a good way uh so the question is relevant.

Um I would say that we in the family carry and have carried a lot of responsibility but when you talk about uh if there is a culture or a value base uh in our family coming back to that question uh I would say that if you look through the years that the family has been active one of the key uh questions that I can at least detect uh is that uh the family has worked with fantastic people.

Uh and uh it is a team play it's a team sport uh one person a couple of persons can't do this yourself you have to rely on people that share your value base and uh they have to take their responsibility along your own responsibility and that in itself is is a responsibility to find these people and to work with them for a long time and uh really understand that you share these ideas and the values of what you're trying to create with the businesses.

And that in itself is is a responsibility to find these people and to work with them for a long time and uh really understand that you share these ideas and the values of what you're trying to create with the businesses.

How do you work with the next generation of owners there are about 30 of them uh in the Next Generation and we have for a number of years uh more than 10 years uh worked with them in different ways uh introducing them slowly to each other and to the businesses and to uh the foundations and what the family uh wants to do.

We have for a number of years uh more than 10 years uh worked with them in different ways uh introducing them slowly to each other and to the businesses and to uh the foundations and what the family uh wants to do.

Uh some of them have said that they're interested to work in the business some of them said that they would like to work with the foundations some of them said that I'm a happy family member and that's fine uh and I think that is a very good way of doing it.

Um there is always a balance with hoping that they will get the interest understand the necessary things you need to do as an owner but I think we're also uh very mindful that uh this is something if you if you work with these things you will have to spend a lot of time at there's a lot of Demands on your time and so on so you really have to like what you're doing.

So gradually I you know I think they will take more responsibility uh and uh that's something we're in very close dialogue with them about uh coming on.

Well that's going to be exciting to follow.

A little while back um Sweden went through a period with uh you know a lot of wealth tax very high taxation and a lot of very prominent swedes left the country whilst you guys didn't do you think that it would have been different if you hadn't had the foundations as an ownership structure?

You never know of course uh what would have happened then um but in the case of the largest Foundation K wenber my great uncle uh and his wife Alise a Norwegian opera singer uh they had no children so for them it was a natural thing to go for a foundation.

Then came the tax question as you said which we're now I think we're close to 15 of the family foundations so many have now decided to start foundations over the years it one of the important things here is that as we all know the Nordic way of doing foundations nobody owns the foundation MH uh which means that uh when you go from one generation to another you're not quarreling about any money because the money will never belong to you.

So you actually work for the good of the foundations and for the companies uh based on on your interest and it's not there to you know fight or have a a big discussion about how to find the money here.

I think that has been extremely important for our family uh because those uh of us who decided to work with the family we have done that because we have a keen interest in doing so uh and uh we've been lucky that throughout the generations um there have been very qualified people in the family who's been able to be there and develop the business.

Moving to a topic a bit here um investment philosophy if you were to kind of distill down what you think a great company is what characterizes a great company what would you say are some of the characteristics?

Management Market position ability to innovate stable finances some of those important things.

What are the most Innovative companies in your portfolio you think?

I hesitate to mention names because I I I think that um all of them have to be innovative if you are going to be successful.

In the Pharma world you have to be extremely Innovative such as astroica if you going to compete in the Telecom world you have to be extremely uh Innovative to to stay ahead.

Uh but also when you look at the traditional engineering companies such as atas Copco they have huge pressure on themselves to innovate and innovate and innovate uh so I think uh most of the companies in our portfolio have that pressure on them and that is something that they are keenly aware of and something that they are actually really trying to to put more and more emphasis on over the years.

Now the fundations fund research in in areas I mean really kind of basic groundbreaking uh research where which in many countries would be taken care of by you know governments and Public Funding do you do that because you think it will be beneficial for the companies eventually to have that type of progress or what's the thinking behind the fields you are choosing?

You're you're right that we are funding primarily basic research and sometimes high-risk research right with a very uncertain outcome you back uh people uh rather than projects right 50% is backing people.

Yeah 50% are some large projects like AI Quantum um yeah in in in in very long dur a project and there not that many institutions which think that way.

I mean Howard Hughes Foundation is one that comes to mind where they also do this kind of binary outcome backing people we're trying to focus on Excellence uh and we're really uh pushing that the the research that is being performed is open research it's for everybody the Swedish system is such that the researcher owns the IP uh so uh it it really is an open uh question.

How does um uh the geopolitical situation influence the way you think?

I mean it's hard to say that we are living in in the most difficult times so that that that you should not do but I think one can at least conclude that we're living in extremely complex times yeah.

Uh and it's not only GE politics it's also uh the advancement of science it's a climate change it's uh so many things that we have to think about in our generation and I guess we're all Keen to give something to our kids that is uh in a good shape um so that impacts our thinking a lot uh about the surrounding world.

When I take you know from a bank perspective it's always been around you know the credit risk and the market risk and the liquidity risk and so on that on the balance sheet things but today if you're a banker there are so many additional risks that you have to consider cyber regulatory political uh climate there's so many different risks that are now coming into the equation.

So we are living in a quite complex World from that point of view so we spend a lot of time in the family and the people that we work with to try to understand to our best ability I should say uh what is actually about to happen and how it could impact what we do.

So the these things cause a lot of volatility uh sometimes yes um yet you are not really utilizing that volatility to scale up your positions in various companies for instance what were the did you make a lot of big active changes during the financial crisis?

Uh I think that we have uh you mean buying more shares in well.

We have about bought in certain companies I think we have been taking a very step bystep approach.

Do you think you should do more of this?

Uh I think that if you look at uh for example the privately owned uh business of investor which is called petricia Industries uh we have been investing quite uh a lot there in the last 10 years so yes we are participating in that.

Uh so in the other holding companies if you look at eqt they have been extremely uh on their toes and have created a very big business in the past 10 years uh so I think that uh we have been quite quite uh active.

Perhaps we have we're we're known to deal with some of the very large uh public corporations and as you know since you're an investor as well uh it's not that easy if you are a very major shareholder to move your ownership position uh in these times so uh we have made a number of Investments over time and and I think we're quite happy about that.

Most recently increased the OWN ship part in Ericson.

You mentioned e which is uh for those of you who don't know a very very successful private Equity company which uh in a way you well which you started up how did that come about?

It came about that um we got through contacts in the United States uh there was a group called the aea investors uh and uh we got to know them and understood uh that they had a big contact network with the CEOs of large or us corporations who at the time when they were leaving their companies still had a lot of mileage left in them.

And uh they used them to develop the companies in the AA portfolio from industrial point of view and that beame also one of the principles uh when we started E when Conor Johnson and CLA dobeck uh and their the teams started eqt.

Uh and that has also followed their legacy over time and and uh I think that they've done a fantastic job when they listed uh e as a company they've also been able to uh with shares to get into new businesses such as bearing Partners in Asia and so on which have actually given them a much broader uh and much bigger platform uh in different parts of the world so they have done uh really well over these years.

And how you see cuz we are um the the Norwegian so wealth fund is in a way in somewhat similar situation we have you know large listed Holdings and then the question is should we go into the should we be allowed to be go into the unlisted Market what do you think what do you think are the arguments for having the two in tandem?

I I think that we have both learned uh from it uh they have been operating quite independently but we always have had in our communication from both sides we have always talked to the relationship as a very good one.

Uh I think that operating I think what we have learned from them is how do you operate uh in a private setting and what are the important things there uh I think they have taken a lot of the values that the way we have been owners in the public companies with them as well uh and stand for the long-term nness and trying to really push Innovation etc etc in them.

So I think yes it has been good to be side by side uh from from my perspective it's been really good and uh I think that the question of learning is so important because you really have to see uh and what has taught us one thing with eqt is that you can do things in a different way.

And you can uh being in a private setting uh you can also be more Nimble in your relationship to the companies and stay much much closer to them uh than if you are a minority owner in a big business.

You talk about learning I'm just curious you are PR at the Royal Swedish Academy of engineering yes what uh what are you taking from that and bringing into the system here?

I take that you could say we call it Eva this IBA this organization has it's the oldest engineering Academy in uh the world they have a very very strong membership group uh with uh immense knowledge in it everything that is being done in that group is done on a pro bono basis.

Uh by doing this uh this organization has the possibility to uh help out uh in Sweden so society when difficult discussions are there about the future I mean for example how should we think about our energy uh situation uh what other policy measures do we need to do uh to make sure that Sweden stays uh competitive uh so questions like that.

So we we engage in different projects and our members uh can and will uh give their free time to help out in and doing that and then we have the possibility to have discussion with government and give our input into the political debate.

So it really uh we we often think about in Sweden we talk very much about triple helix namely the relationship between government business and Academia and you could say that this organization Eva is really at in the middle of this discussion.

What's the key to creating this Helix between government private and Academia?

I think uh one of the key aspects is to be open open to the discussion uh open to that uh you try to bring in competence uh around certain questions that can actually be helpful for the development of the country.

And having that openness toward uh listening to each other and taking some uh advice hopefully uh into the process of decision- making for for example in politics.

Moving on to uh to leadership Marcus you are uh widely considered the person in this part of the world with the biggest rodex and uh many of the people who listen to this call wouldn't know what a Rolodex is but it was something in the old days which we had at our at our desks and you stuffed your business cards into it so you could easily find them so basically not a word for having a a tremendous Network why why is Network important?

Number one of course uh opportunities that you may be introduced to.

Um I think that the network and to understand what is actually happening around the world is for us since we are close to businesses with global businesses uh it is a very essential part that you actually have people that you can talk to in different parts of the world ask for advice listening to what is actually their viewpoints.

It's very hard to do over a zoom call you have to spend time getting to know these people getting to know them uh in times when when you maybe not need their help because one day you may need their help with something uh and then it's very good to have that Network.

And what's the key to maintaining it?

It's like everything else ncol it's like um just hard work but you also have to like that part of it because uh at least that that is something you know getting to know people with uh all these abilities is extremely stimulating.

What is it that you like with it?

The challenges in my mind the whole time.

Oh many um I met a composer the other day a young composer in Sweden uh I met one of the founders in Mistral which is you know the a French AI company which is one of the uh most forward I'm a lucky person from that point of view.

Would you take away uh from from these things into business I do you get inspiration from a lot of non- business related one thing that is you know we spoke about geopolitics uh that's a necessity to hear what's going on um that's one side of it but I also believe that um in this era of dramatic technological and scientific change you really have to understand that the ability to use these Technologies across different fields of interest is some think that is uh very very important.

One thing that is you know we spoke about geopolitics uh that's a necessity to hear what's going on um that's one side of it but I also believe that um in this era of dramatic technological and scientific change you really have to understand that the ability to use these Technologies across different fields of interest is some think that is uh very very important.

If you're not out there listening to those people who do this on a daily basis and also see the same thing it's difficult to understand that you do need to change and you do need to advance things.

I've heard you say that good leadership depends on the situation you lead through.

Yes.

Uh but is there a common denominator when it comes to good leadership?

Sure I I mean uh the engagement the uh the energy the knowledge the Judgment strength to carry on also in difficult times and lead people through difficult times but also lead people in times of great expansion.

That's why it's so important to have people uh in leadership positions who is also there at that particular time for a certain company because sometimes you have to companies need to go through a very difficult period that may be a very different leader from somebody from a company who are in a strong strong expansion phase.

Has good leadership changed you think of the last 10 years does it take something else to be a good leader now?

I'm not sure actually I I I think that leadership uh the qualities of leadership Still Remains to a certain to to most extent but I I think that the way you apply it has probably changed.

In what way with technology no but I mean.

No but I mean think about some of these multinational corporations uh they can actually do uh they don't have to do all staff meetings by going to certain countries they can do three old staff meetings over Zoom uh without moving and and then they cover all the time zones so it it it it helps you uh to run the companies in a very different way.

Uh you can use uh you know the the corporate version of Facebook or whatever to communicate between different groups uh that work with different projects in in multinational corporations so yes you can apply these things in a very very different way.

Do you think it's tougher to be a CEO now than what it was in the past?

I think it's it's uh for a multinational corporation in a for example high technology company the demands have gone up yeah.

What what what part of it is tougher?

Uh I think uh the speed of change is a very big factor here M and uh but also you know running a bank or running a Pharma company you have to keep your energy going.

What's the toughest time you have had personally in terms of businesses I gone through a number of uh seen the number of Crisis situations personally uh loss of family members is usually a tough thing.

I gone through a number of uh seen the number of Crisis situations personally uh loss of family members is usually a tough thing.

How did you cope with it?

I uh have learned uh that you you have to realize it's part of your life you have to deal with it as it is and you have to think positively because there are so many positive things in life so it's a very very important part of that to think positively and to see the many many good things on what goes on.

It takes a strong mindset to to have that attitude um but what um how do you think about um developing leaders within the wck sphere uh moving people from uh you know one company to the other company is cross yeah is cross fer fation very important?

Extremely uh if we can do it uh I think some of the great leaders are those who have uh the ability to have seen different things.

You can see for example bu eom who's now running Ericson did a very good job at er at the investor before that uh and uh if you look historically into our group the people who have been very helpful in helping the family over the years they all did uh a multitude of things.

Atlas seems to be some kind of CEO Factory it uh yes.

They've done they've done really really well and why what is it with Atlas uh one of the aspects I think with Atlas is that they in their corporate structure they have pushed so much responsibility into different parts of the group they they're really very firm on people even for small businesses to take full responsibility and that has created many good leaders in that company.

And for those of you who haven't heard it we have also done a podcast with the ex CEO of Atlas where we talk about these kind of things M absolutely really really uh fascinating.

Absolutely really really uh fascinating.

That's been generally a very very good thing um because having worked with some of these CEOs over many years uh and uh then we gotten to know each other uh we know know that we share values uh which is very important when they take on chairs chair mes.

What makes a chair effective what's the best chair you've seen apart from apart from yourself of [Laughter] course?

I've seen I I've seen many Fantastic chairs what makes them effective uh I think the uh presence you know applying their wisdom and and experiences really forward looking uh all Al knowing where things can go wrong and see to you know to address those subjects with the management very when.

You say presence what do you mean?

I I believe that uh good shairs usually engage themselves with the companies uh quite a bit uh even in the setting I mean this of course depends in which jurisdiction you're working because in in many many jurisdictions uh many capital markets chairs are much much closer they're almost half executive.

We split the the chair and the COO role yes is that important?

Uh I think uh that has worked out really well for us yeah.

And why does it why do they still keep the other way of doing it in America for instance?

Well it's interesting question because they seem to be doing quite well as well and and so there maybe not any colum egg here but I I I think that I think what speaks to our model uh which is is very good is that also CEO needs somebody to talk to.

Uh and I think those relationships where CEOs and chairs have that relationship where uh because it running a company can also be quite lonely absolutely absolutely.

And uh therefore I think that model Works uh it also works because uh chairs can both Challenge and support when they get close but that you know that of course demands that the chairs have enough time to spend with the companies and really understand what's going on.

Now in um uh in our fund we have the view that one share should have one vote uh but you don't quite share that view could you you mind just explaining how you how you look at it?

Uh I look upon it this way that uh it happens I mean at at the base of it it's a contractual right uh these companies that have it have have made an agreement at one point in time yeah to uh have that.

It has very often been situations where uh companies have been developed by by entrepreneurs who uh needed to go for more capital and uh doing so found that their presence and their possibility to influence was very very important uh and the U and the investors at the time uh thought that also that was a very important idea.

Uh I think that in our part of the world uh we have a very very transparent system around this you are free as an investor to buy the type of share that you want to buy you can decide if you want to buy into that company or not I realize that some people may not want to invest in that kind of company but I I I think there is a very big question of contractual right uh and how you uh look upon that as as an important factor of doing business.

Well we typically vote against these kind of things right but in the case of the wenberg companies we don't because it was in place when we bought the shares and we went into it with open eyes and so so we are we are not making uh too much noise here.

Now rounding off um we have a couple of uh uh ways of uh relaxing in common um sailing and CrossCountry skiing yes tell me about it because I know you have a see a smile on your face here so why not the first time uh uh no what is it it's it's about the vast expanse isn't it yeah yeah it's the vast expans yeah being on the ocean or being up in the the mountains and uh I find that to be uh very good for my mind at least so.

So why not the first time uh uh no what is it it's it's about the vast expanse isn't it yeah yeah it's the vast expans yeah being on the ocean or being up in the the mountains and uh I find that to be uh very good for my mind at least so.

I read a book on architecture and uh one of the keys to good architecture is the combination of repetition and variation and I think both thec and cross country skiing area have that.

I agree and I I in addition to that I think that uh some sports or some activities actually helps your mind yeah to think about something different uh than than what you usually do and I I I do believe that is maybe the most important way to refresh your brain is that you keep your mind on something different.

What do you read?

Many different things actually uh history current situations uh I'm actually reading right now a book on Swedish-Finnish relationship back uh from the 1800s to now very interesting especially in the time that we live in right now.

And um what's your advice to young people?

Stay curious work hard follow your interests get a good boss.

Sounds like a good plan and sounds like the people that uh you know the W companies have a really good boss in you uh big thanks for being here it's incredibly impressive what your family have achieved over the last 150 years.

Thank you and thanks for having me pleasure.