It's not just drivers who complain about getting from A to B. Transit users have been struggling long wait times, unreliable service, stressful commutes. But things could be starting to change in Ontario. They're beefing up regional GO service in Toronto, the Ontario Line, and at long last, the Eglinton Crosstown LRT are on their way. Ottawa, where the light rail system has had a bumpy ride, to say the least, is expanding its O-Train service. That's a pretty impressive list, and some pretty maps, but big plans and press releases don't always mean real changes on the way. So should transit users be feeling optimistic right now? I asked Shoshana Sachs, associate professor in the University of Toronto's Department of Civil and Mineral Engineering, Gio Petti, podcaster and producer of documentaries like A Train to Nowhere about Ottawa Transit, and Marco D'Angelo, president and CEO of the Canadian Urban Transit Association. Thank you, too, for joining us in studio and Marco for joining us on the line. Shauna, I'm going to start with you. Based on yesterday's news, there's hope that the Eglinton Crosstown LRT will finally be operational. I'm not going to commit to a date because I know that's sort of up in the air. The TTC CEO, of course, won't commit to the February 8th date, but is there a lesson here for cities just about its history that we can take away from how this whole project started? 15 years of construction, six years later than when it was supposed to be delivered?

Oh, there's so many lessons that it's hard to pick one, but I think I'll go with that. You can't contract out responsibility. There was this idea at the beginning of the public private partnership that the way we made the contract would make it other people's problems to deliver for us. And when we really want something, we can't make it other people's problem. We have to stay involved. We have to keep responsibility. And so the fantasy that the OPP model was just going to make it other people's problems, we're going to get what we want. Nothing would ever be expensive again. We can't buy into those fantasies. Big things require hard work, commitment and follow through. And that's the only way we're going to get more transit done in our cities.

Alright, Marco, same question to you. Is there a lesson here for other cities about our history here with the Eglinton Crosstown?

Well, I mean, Canada is in the major transit build out over the last decade. And of course, Ontario is one of the the clearest examples. And, you know, it's it it goes I think it needs to be noted. You know, the two LRT lines opened in the city of Ottawa last year as well. The the on time percentage improved through the year. Now, there have been challenges during the winter at TTC opening. Finch I think was a very good step. And certainly the advancement on other major projects across the province of Ontario and across the country as well, like the Broadway subway in Vancouver, the extensions of the Blue Line in Montreal, there's there's big projects that are happening across the country, each of which face unique challenges. But where they come together is that funding certainty is really what helps to ensure that these projects are able to move forward.

Alright. We'll talk about the money a little bit later. But I want to come to you as someone who uses the transit system as an advocate, what parallels do you see with sort of I'm sure you've heard, even though you're in Ottawa, you've heard about the Eglinton Crosstown, you heard about the Finch line, but what parallels do you see with the O-Train in Ottawa?

Well, it's funny, I, I one of the, the, the biggest things is just the time of the projects. Ironically, if we go even further back in time to 2000 or actually the 90s, back when Mike Harris was Prime Minister of Ontario, Premier, Premier of Ontario, excuse me, his common sense revolution funding cuts were what stopped expansion of Ottawa's transitway and what originally filled in the tunnel that was being dug for the the LRT, the Eglinton LRT that was going to be built that we're finally getting now. And ironically, the that's what led to Ottawa adopting a transit system. But it is really disappointing. This, this constant stream of, you know, delivery dates, you know, and what I would say, jobs not being done right the first time like we saw with the the the Finch line is slower than a bus. And that's insane for an independent transit line where it should be faster than a bus, you know. And with Ottawa, you know, very similar in a very similar vein, the line two line, which opened about a little more than a year ago now. Fantastic. But a lot of it was single tracked, so which means that the trains can not run at the fastest speeds possible, and with a lot more capacity than it should. So and with both of these projects, we're seeing effects of things that should have been done when they were being built. But now it's being pushed to be a we're going to fix that later.

One thing I do want to ask in your documentary, you kind of you, you take us through a journey of the politics behind it, the funding, but then also at the end, you kind of get the the people who use transit, including yourself. And outside of the speed and the single track, what would you say are some of the issues with the O-Train?

Well, I live in a suburb called Riverside South, which is basically on the edge of Ottawa. For years it has been badly served by transit. I've often been told that it's my fault for living in Riverside South, that it's like, oh, you can't live there and expect transit to be good. But with the addition of this train, we've seen that we can have good transit here, but it's still not at a level where it's perfect. The thing that I hear a lot from people and where I was trying to go with that, is because transit was so badly served. So many people were led to, you know, using cars to get around rather than using public transit. So what the O-Train had the perfect opportunity to do was to convert these car commuting people into using transit. But it hasn't been done very well. There's a lack of a park and ride. There's a lack of easy access to the station. So when people see the option to take the train, a lot of people have dismissed it or just thought, okay, this is nice, but it's still easier for me to drive. So there's a lot of things that could have been done, like addition of parking, ride more connections to the stations as far as buses go, and and just more frequency on the train that so many people just get turned off from it. And it's unfortunate.

Shoshana, let's add on that OCTranspo is claiming that doubling the track will take about I think it's 2046 when it comes to transit users. I think we there's these great promise. There's a lot of excitement. And then we see the sort of I don't want to call it a price tag, but it's that little thing at the end that's just like, all right, we're going to have to wait, you know, several years. Help us understand why does it take so long for something as doubling a track that, you know, when Geo was on that train the first time, probably wanted to go a little bit faster. Lovely views, I'm sure. But, you know, why does it take so long to get that done?

Well, so there's a bunch of things going on. The 2046 date isn't construction, right? There's no money committed to the doubling. There isn't a plan. It's not that there. We're going to be doing shovels really slowly for the next 20 years. When you have dates like that, it's saying fictionally in our plan to maybe one day have money. What they're saying is this isn't currently a priority for us. And when you look into the numbers, the decisions not to double the track were made based on predictions of ridership and how expensive it would be. And there are places where it can be very hard to double track, because you're on a bridge over the Rideau Canal that you would have to completely rebuild the bridge, or you're in quite a narrow trench. That would involve quite a lot of construction. And so basically it was a financial choice to say this would be expensive, and we don't think we have the money or the prediction of the future ridership to adjust for it, something that comes up all the time in these discussions about transit is, of course, we all want our transit to be fast and convenient and super high quality and go everywhere all the time. But there's a question of, well, how do we pay for that? Who do we think should be paying? How expensive should we be? How subsidized should it be? How much money should the government commit to public transit? And one of the things that come up, like in neighborhoods like Riverside, is are we willing to build the density that can serve higher order transit? Are we willing to prioritise how vehicles move on our street that prioritise moving the most number of people, which is always by transit? Are we willing to pay the taxes that are required to build transit places that have really excellent transit, really excellent mobility of any kind, including cars, walking, public transit? They say, yes we do. We want to move around fast enough that we're willing to do the things that it takes. In Ontario, not so much.

Okay, Marco, I'm. Going to get you in there. I want to add, you know, why do these long awaited, long anticipated projects always seem to get tied up?

Well, in fact, I think it's very important, you know, that they've taken so many precautions and so much more testing, because that was one of the things going back to the the opening of the Confederation Line was in that inquiry was about ensuring that there was enough testing. It's important for riders across Ontario and the country to be able to to want to come back to transit. But what that there needs to be increased reliability. So those are things like signals and fleets and maintenance and determining, you know, whether the service works. Those are really important considerations as as these very complicated projects are being undertaken in so many different corners of the province. And so, you know, I think that it's really important that that work continues and we avoid stop start funding that was mentioned just in the previous answer. And how important completing these projects is in terms of defeating the cause of congestion that's been highlighted so well by the previous guest from Toronto Board of Trade. So there is Ontario shows that it can move big projects forward, but it also shows the consequences for the public when they don't move forward or move forward fast enough. And and so that's where having financial stability for these projects and also and also more communications, of course, with the public to increase confidence in the systems overall. Those are very important things.

Well, let's talk about the money there, Marco. Why is it why is stable government funding so important? I know last year's federal budget had a change that removed a steady flow of about $3 billion per year for about ten years. That's changed to sort of a bigger pot of money that would go to a number of projects, but help us understand what that stable funding would go to.

Yeah, I mean, we had worked very closely with the federal government to secure $30 billion over ten years in a permanent transit fund that would provide $3 billion a year. And the November 4th budget did put that amount into into doubt. And that's an issue because projects are planned, they're technically ready. And what's missing is this stable, long term funding. And we know municipalities cannot fund projects of this magnitude on their own. And so these are national interests because they reduce commute times, they reduce congestion and they improve affordability and they connect housing. So it's really important that the federal government come back to the table, and we are working with them to ensure that that larger fund that covers more areas of municipal infrastructure, we want to ensure that that transit will continue to have a very dedicated stream that will deliver on the commitments of the federal government, and then those have flowed through the provinces and cities to make ten year plans around the certainty and the stability of that funding from Ottawa, the federal government in Ottawa.

Yep. Ten year plans and heavy projects are really important. We're going to need to keep doing that. But we also need practical one year, two year and three year plans, right? I don't want to wait until I'm in my 50s or 60s before I see transit improve, and there is a huge amount that we can do through how we use our existing streets to make our public transit better, as long as at the moment the provincial government will allow. The provincial government has made it potentially illegal over the last year to make public transit and just mobility for everybody really fast. So, for example, the fastest, most effective thing we could do to move many people quickly around our cities would be to make dedicated bus lanes and places where the buses are really busy. Toronto has five priority routes they want to do. You can tell me if Ottawa has routes that that they want to do. We could do this in less than a year if we had the gumption to do it. It's very cheap. You don't need federal funding. It's the kind of thing that supports itself with more riders. It's good for businesses. On every metric. We could care about speed, money, air quality. These are win win win projects. But the provincial government made them illegal.

But many of those many of those things are. Fixable under municipal jurisdiction. I mean, we saw, you know, Bus Lane dedicated on Bathurst that was controversial. That went ahead by City of Toronto. So there's also signal transit signal priority. I mean, there are a lot of tools that municipalities do have in their toolbox as well to to to prioritise transit over cars and cities across Ontario. You know, I have been have been innovative in doing that in the region of Waterloo in terms of making sure that the that the ion train is able to to have priority. There have been a number of things where cities on their own have been able to enhance, whether it's for, for, for bicycles or for active transportation, that that has been a priority. But it's true that that that senior levels of government need to be at the table to help fund that and also not to block efforts to to engage in that via legislation or other strings attached to project funds.

I know you want to move on, but it's not transit over cars. It's mobility for everybody. When more people move faster, it is better for transit riders and better for car drivers as well. This is really important because we have this false opinion that it's a fight, and actually we can make systems that are better for any road user, but we have to stop imagining that it's a zero sum game.

Okay. I do want to get you in here. You know, as someone who uses transit on a regular, who is documented, who has spoken to people, kind of. If you were able to pick up on this conversation that's happening right now. But also advice for for frustrated transit users right now as well.

Well, just on the discussion, I think that like as you were saying, I think short term plans and like one two year plans are important because if we've seen how OCTranspo OC Transpo recently, although they've opened these new train lines, they've had incredible difficulties over these past couple of weeks with buses. We had the new their new operator, Troy Charter, basically admit we are not delivering great service. We're cancelling way too many trips, and they've even implemented a plan to try to get more buses because their old fleets are breaking down and they've committed to electric buses, but the electric buses aren't shipping as fast as they should be. So they're in a rut right now. And I think having those short term solutions, as in what they're trying to do now, is getting in more refurbished buses, getting more mechanics to fix the broken buses, to make sure that they're accessible to commuters. I think that's that's, you know, really great to see that they're trying to improve. But as far as what commuters can do, I think we are in a very good position because Ottawa is having their 2026 mayoral election this year. So as a commuter, you have the power to say, I think, I think whether it be your city council or whether it be mayor, you can vote who you think is going to do the best job for transit. And I really implore a lot of people out there, look straight to the camera, like, go out and vote. If you live in Ottawa, this is a very important election and it could really dictate the quality of the transit system for the next couple of years.

Alright. And transit will be an election. Issue across the province, but certainly recognizing the average age of a bus in 2019 was eight and a half years old. And today it's almost 11 years old. So think about that in terms of out of service and maintenance costs and being off the road. So really renewing the fleet, that was an excellent an excellent point. And that's something that, that, that, that federal funding is meant to, to do. And that's something that can happen within that 1 to 2 year time frame that was cited.

Alright, folks, unfortunately we are going to have to leave it there. Time goes by very quickly. Very passionate conversation. Love that. Marco. Gio, Shauna, thank you so much. Really appreciate your insights and your time.

Thank you. Thank you so much.