Christine: I use it on anything that might have body oil or grease on it. So, it could be something super obvious like your kitchen backsplash, but it could also be used on yoga mats or kitchen counters. You can clean wood floors. You can clean stainless steel. You can use it as a bathroom cleaner.

Christine: I'm Christine Sierra Classette.

Rosie: I'm Rosie Garren. And you're listening to the Wire Cutter Show.

Christine: Rosie. Hey.

Rosie: Hey there. We are going to do our what I think is becoming an annual sort of spring cleaning episode. We got to do the spring cleaning episode.

Christine: I love it.

Rosie: It's close to Earth Day. And really when I started thinking about what Wire Cutter recommends for cleaners as related to the environment, I was really thinking like we actually don't recommend a lot of things on site that are specific quote unquote green cleaners, like the types of things that you might go to a grocery store aisle and they're sort of like marketed as better for the environment. We are often using a very very simple list of cleaners. You will find things like vinegar and baking soda, which I think people commonly think of as green, but oftent times we're using dish soap, which is kind of a little unexpected.

Christine: Yeah. I've often and for a long time wondered about these green cleaners, and I've wondered, is it a scam? What's the deal? And to have that conversation lead to what's essentially a conversation about the myriad uses of dish soap was kind of interesting. And I I want to dig into it. You know, Wire Cutter has a ton of cleaning guides on our site. I've edited a lot of them, and dish soap shows up in almost all of them. It's It's kind of wild. The other great thing about dish soap is it's cheap. Like, you're not going to spend very much money on it. It's probably the most sort of economical choice that you can make for a lot of cleaning choices. So, we are going to bring on one of our favorite cleaning experts on this episode. I'm pumped to talk to her.

Christine: Andrea Barnes. We love her. She specializes in laundry, testing washers, testing dryers, testing laundry soaps. She was our first guest on our very first episode of this show. She also tests dish soap. She knows a lot about detergents, a lot about soaps. So, we're going to talk about two articles she's written for Wire Cutter. One of them is a guide to all the things you can clean with dish soap on the nose. And the other is an actual product review of dish soaps. So, we'll hear some specific product recommendations, why she likes them, what she does with them. We're going to take a quick break and when we're back, we'll have Andrea here to talk about dish soap, why it's such an effective cleaner, what to look for in a good one, because obviously you've got a lot to choose from, and the surprising ways that you can use this very humble, cheap, ubiquitous cleaner. We'll be right back.

Rosie: Welcome back. With us now, Andrea Barnes, wire cutters expert, covering washing machines, dryers, laundry detergent, dish soap. This all involves touring factories and visiting showrooms, attending trade shows, speaking with appliance brand representatives, and of course interviewing experts. Fun fact, every year Andrea runs over 120 dish cycles for testing. That Andrea does not sound that impressive.

Andrea: Yeah, I've heard that. Um, we wish you would do more dish cycles personally, but

Andrea: if I'm including in my own home, the number is much higher. Uh, but this is actually specifically for testing dishwashers. And you have to remember that the dishwasher tests involve running sensor cycles and extremely dirty dishes.

Christine: Got it.

Andrea: Usually those cycles, even on the best dishwasher that's fast, is like 4 hours. So I I just don't have the time to run more than that.

Rosie: Sure. Yeah, that's almost like spending half your year in the office just running a a dish cycle a day, right? Yeah, that. So, it's still quite a lot of dish cycles.

Andrea: So, it's a lot. You also have to get those dishes dirty as you wash them. So,

Rosie: Andrea, we are going to talk a lot about dish soap today and how you can use it in all sorts of cleaning tasks around your house. But first, I hear that you brought us a quiz. In our inaugural episode, which we did with you on laundry, you brought us a quiz that still kind of blows my mind. Lots of fun things that we found out in that. So, I'm expecting you to really blow us away here.

Andrea: Let's warm up. Okay. So, true or false? You need suds for the best clean.

Christine: False.

Andrea: You're correct.

Christine: Ah, we didn't hear from you, Rosie. You just waited until you you you like stepped that one out.

Rosie: I was just thinking about how I hate not having suds.

Christine: Yeah.

Andrea: And that's why they're there.

Rosie: Yeah. Really?

Andrea: Yes. Really? Suds are more for the consumer. Psychological.

Christine: Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah. Suds tell you that there's soap there. And you could make a really good soap that doesn't suds, but you wouldn't necessarily know if you looked at water that there was soap in there. So, it's more of a visual cue. But it's interesting because in the dish soap world, the way they actually test dish soaps is something called mileage, which is how long the suds last. M. So, it is something that's part of cleaning, but that's not You don't need the suds to clean.

Rosie: Okay.

Andrea: Next question. The best dish soaps contain enzymes.

Rosie: Yes, true.

Christine: I'm going to say, wait a minute. I'm going to say, cuz I feel like we've learned a lot on this show. I'm going to say enzymes are in detergent and dish soap is actually different. It's a soap.

Andrea: Yes.

Rosie: This is not fair. Christine, do you have the answer? Christine, what have you edited this stuff?

Christine: You actually clean your house. This is not fair. I have worked with Andrea a lot on laundry detergent stuff, so I somewhere back in a door in the back of my brain, I pulled that out. So, very good. Yes. So, enzymes are usually not in dish soap because they're not very skin friendly. The whole point of dish soap, what makes it so unique and and interesting as a cleaning solution is that it's safe for you to use with your bare hands. That's one of the main qualifiers. The nice thing about dish soap is that you can use it on your hands, which actually requires a lot of research and science to make that tiny like 99 cent bottle of dish soap.

Rosie: Wow. Okay. Best value in your kitchen, probably.

Andrea: Yeah. All right. Last one. If dish soap isn't cleaning a dish, use a little more.

Rosie: Oh, true.

Christine: Yeah. Why not?

Andrea: It's true and not true.

Rosie: True question. Sorry, Rosie. I'm like I first of all I think Christine you should have been disqualified. Second of all that was too tricky. It

Christine: is tricky. True and false. What does that mean?

Andrea: Soaking in a tub with dish soap can help really stubborn stains. But you also don't want to do it for too long.

Rosie: Because you Yeah. See, I sometimes walk away and forget. And you're really not supposed to leave it to soak for more than 2 hours. Like even just your regular dishes, you're not supposed to do that.

Andrea: It's not recommended. I'm sure it changes depending on the dish soap, but it's just you can accidentally ruin things.

Rosie: Even Dawn,

Andrea: even Dawn,

Christine: especially Dawn, which I'm sure we'll talk about later, it actually says in the label like do not soap things. And I mean, you could make some arguments here. Do they want you to use more soap?

Andrea: Probably. Probably. But experts have observed in focus groups and interviewing people that most people actually clean their dishes by directly applying dish soap to their dish. Very few people actually do it the way you're supposed to with soaking. Okay, so we are going to talk about using dish soap for all other kinds of things, but like let's just start with how you're actually supposed to use it to clean dishes. So what's the way if you're not supposed to spray the soap right on the dish and like scrub away with a little water? What is the way?

Christine: Okay, that's what most people do. And they have taken that into account with developing things. But if you want to use the least amount of water in they've done to fill a basin with water and add soap and soak your dishes and then wash them. But you want to do it within like 20 minutes, right? You don't want to soak it and leave it and then go. But most people don't wash dishes that way.

Rosie: Yeah. That's how my m used to do it in the olden times.

Christine: Yeah. you're using a lot more water if it's just running out of the faucet. I mean, that is definitely like

Andrea: Yeah. Which is why dishwashers are pretty pretty great. But in terms of the question if you should add more soap, let's say you've already soaked your dishes and something's not coming off, like yes, try adding a little more soap and scrubbing it because that soap will break things down. Really, it's that you just don't want to soak things for longer than 2 hours.

Rosie: All right, cool, cool, cool. Thinking about the pot I left in the sink with about a half a bottle of Dawn and filled up to the top with water cuz I made Rice Krispie treats last night. Oh yeah. And figured I'd come back in 48 to 72 hours and scrub it.

Christine: This episode in part came from a thing I think a lot about, which is this idea of green cleaners. You go into a store and you see so many different labels that say some variation of green for everything from bathroom cleaners to dish soap even to laundry detergent. I think people, I'll speak for myself, want to buy these things because maybe they're concerned about the environment, concerned about health, I have sensitive skin, my kids are little, whatever the case may be. So, by and large, are quote unquote green cleaners worth buying?

Andrea: Are they worth buying? Oo, that's a tough question. So, first of all,

Rosie: and what do we mean by green?

Andrea: Yeah, that's that's a great question. So, first I'm going to break down something pretty interesting about cleaning, which is how I try to approach things when thinking about the environment and the environmental impact. There's a concept in cleaning called the sinner circle. It was like sinners the movie. Okay. And but it was because the guy who invented it last name is Sinner, but they still call it that.

Andrea: Cleaning can be done four ways. through time, through heat, through chemicals, and through friction. So when you take one thing away, you kind of have to add more. So let's say this happens a lot with green cleaners. If you take chemicals out, then you have to use more friction. Like you might have to scrub harder, right? So that's sort of how we've approached cleaning is that we prefer buying less, right? So you can do a lot with one really good bottle of laundry detergent and one bottle of dish soap and then you wouldn't have to go buy a bunch of other things to, for example, if you buy a weaker laundry detergent, you won't have to go buy six other stain removers, right? You can just use that one. So I think the approach that I've taken is buy less. I think that that's a good way to look at it. So whether or not green cleaners are worth buying, I think it's a personal choice.

Andrea: Rosie, what you mentioned about allergies makes total sense to me. It's good that these products exist, but you always want to be careful with claims, and I think that's probably the conclusion a lot of wire cutter journalists have come to. We offer alternatives if that's what people really want, though.

Christine: Yeah. And we should also say if you're listening and you have a cleaner that you love, you love the smell, you love how it's cleaning, this is no shade on that. But just overall, it's not necessarily doing a better job at cleaning and it's not necessarily better for the environment.

Andrea: Yeah. I mean, that's a holistic life cycle analysis that has to happen. It's it's complicated, right? But what I do know is that buying less is always a good thing to do and that we can make small changes that have a bigger impact like washing with cold water or buying less cleaners. So, one of the reasons I like dish soap is that I actually don't buy surface cleaner at home. Like I I don't have it. I just use dish soap.

Christine: Well, this is a great segue to talking about why dish soap is a good cleaner. We use dish soap in a lot of wire cutter cleaning guides. I've edited guides to cleaning your oven, cleaning the wood floor like I just mentioned, cleaning your bathroom, cleaning all sorts of stuff, even laundry. And we oftent times are calling for dish soap. So why is it such a great cleaner?

Andrea: So really the only thing that water and friction alone can't remove is oil. And dish soap is designed to remove oil. That's how it works. So the surfactants in dish soap make it possible for oil and water to mix so that you can clean.

Rosie: Remind me what a surfactant is.

Andrea: It is a soaplike molecule that has two parts. One part of it loves oil and one part of it loves water.

Rosie: Got it.

Andrea: So it makes it possible for oil and water to to be cleaning.

Christine: Yeah. Exactly. That makes it a great cleaner for things like body oils or kitchen grease or one of my favorite ways to use dish soap is and you really only need a drop or two in like a spray bottle with water and you can spray down cabinets or kitchen tile that have grease splatter on it and you let it sit for 2 minutes and that's all you have to do is you wipe it down with a damp rag and then you should be able to wipe it off pretty easily. You also have a guide to cleaning stainless steel uh appliances in the kitchen and you just use like a drop of your soap.

Andrea: I when I reported that article, I was so gobsmacked that that's what the experts told me to do. Like I interviewed multiple experts. I was expecting them to all say use alcohol or use specific stainless steel cleaners, but none of them did. They all said dish soap. And I had this memory of my father who's obsessed with cleaning. My dad is like I give him cleaning products every year for his birthday. It's like the best day for him. And he uses dish soap on everything. And I remembered him using it on his stainless steel. I was like, "Oh, yeah. Okay." So, because it gets, what do we mostly have? Fingerprints, which is oil. Uh, so dish soap does a great job with it.

Rosie: And like you said earlier, it's safe for your hands.

Andrea: Exactly. Because it's not a harsh cleaner. It's very versatile and it's safe to use with your bare hands, which is pretty great. You can't do that with a lot of cleaners.

Christine: I want to know what makes an effective dish soap. Does it matter which one you use? Are you going to get a better cleaning with one over another?

Andrea: So, we did a bunch of tests on dish soaps. And the first test was we put oil and food dye on plates and then soaked the plates for 2 minutes in a solution of tepid water and I think one teaspoon of dish soap. The variance was huge. Some of the dish soaps barely removed any oil and some were removing droplets in a second. But when we decided for the second round to try multiple plates in the same basin, that's when we really started to see a bigger difference where some of the other soaps started to catch up and others were not doing well and needed more soap.

Andrea: So I realized there I was like, "Oh, all these dish soaps are very different. This explains like why sometimes you need a lot more." And when we had paid testers in and we had them scrubbing dishes with dish soap, that's when we really realized, oh, there's a huge difference in dish soaps and a weaker dish soap will get you where you need to go, but you're going to need to use a lot more of it.

Rosie: That's surprising to me. I I would have I I think would have assumed the opposite that it was one of those things, one of those capitalism things where it's like there's 16 different brands, but they all essentially do the same thing and work the same way.

Andrea: I mean, big picture, sure they do, but some are better than others. And I was surprised to learn even though they all have the same or similar basic formulas, the way they vary in that formulation is huge.

Christine: I am crunchy. I'm like a crunchy mom. So, when I'm standing in the aisle looking at all the dish soaps, I am usually going for like a clear bottle. I'm going for something that has like a lavender scent or a lemon verbanana scent or no scent. I steer clear of the Dawn and the palm olive. And I think people think of these clear bottles of dish soap that are sort of branded as very green as sort of quote unquote natural. And then these other ones like the Dons, the Palm Olives as synthetic in some way. Is that accurate or is that just like a bunch of hoie?

Andrea: Dish soap inherently is not natural because it's a synthetic. Like Mrs. Myers for example, which I think I'm going to guess is your lemon verbina. I I look I love that soap. that dish soap. We liked it in testing and funnily the reason we didn't choose it is because they have no unscented version and the scents themselves are allergenic.

Christine: Oh yeah.

Andrea: So part of why we have the main choice for our dish soap is because it's a very non-erritating and had a really simple ingredient list and worked really really well. Which it is a palm olive, right? Palm Olive clear. Yeah. which was great in testing and lasted a long time and a little goes a long way. But we did notice specifically with like cleaning tasks like pre-treating laundry that Dawn worked like so much better.

Christine: So like Palm Olive and Dawn, these things that I think of as kind of like these leftovers from the 50s, they're like so unnatural looking like the blue and the green. um are these fitting into the category in your testing of being more powerful cleaners? Are they the ones that were getting the grease off the fastest versus those sort of like, you know, the seventh generation, the other kind of clearer bottles that you might pick up at the store?

Andrea: Yes. And I would also say that they perform better, but I understand if you're trying to limit petrochemical use, like one of the easiest ways to do it is to avoid dyes, right? So feeling like it's unnatural isn't an unusual thing when you walk past those bottles, right?

Rosie: Yeah. Does this go back to because the top two here are Palm Olive and Dawn as Christine is saying. Does this go back to sort of the tenants of Wire Cutter whereby you're going to necessarily gravitate toward the one that functions the best where you also are getting your money's worth because you don't have to use too much.

Andrea: Yes, I would say that that's very accurate. We just don't want people to have to buy that much and you don't have to buy that much when you buy these soaps that work well. And I see this myself. Like I said, I don't use uh surface cleaner in my house anymore. And that's because I realized that I could put two drops of dish soap in a spray bottle of water and it lasts for a month for cleaning

Christine: for like literally under 25 cents. You're like good on your cleaner.

Andrea: Yeah. And that to me it's like that's how many bottles did I not buy of surface cleaner? Right. So maybe it's not vinegar, but it's still to me it's purchasing less and that's still a good thing.

Rosie: Yeah. And that all factors into the sort of environmental calculus.

Andrea: Yeah. I mean, environmental decisions are really, really tricky because when you think you've figured out exactly what it is, someone will be like, "Well, what about aluminum mining?"

Rosie: And you're and you're like a slap message, I'm sure.

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, that's not to say that. I mean, I think there's a lot of environmentally conscious brands that are making really awesome products and we recommend one, but they didn't necessarily perform as well as the big guys.

Christine: We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to talk with you, Andrea, about your picks. We'll also talk about the surprising ways that people can use dish soap and one green cleaning myth that absolutely should die. We'll be right back.

Rosie: Welcome back. Before the break, Andrea, we talked a lot about why dish soap makes a great cleaner. Now, we want to hear about your favorites and what they can clean. So, tell us, what dish soaps do you recommend?

Andrea: We recommend Ultra Palm Olive Pure and Clear, which is a more traditional dish soap that also does not contain dyes or fragrances. It's on the EPA safer choice list, which is one of the things that we like about it. And it also does not contain any harsh ingredients for people with who have allergies. So there's some preservatives that are put in dish soaps that can be really irritating to skin if you are allergic to it. And this does not have that in there.

Rosie: And presumably it's a very good cleaner.

Andrea: It's a really good cleaner. And the reason that we chose it as the top pick, well, one is that I had so many people complaining to me about sponges smelling.

Christine: I was going to ask you about that. That's also why I don't use Dawn and Palm Olive because I hate the way my sponge smells after using

Andrea: really. So I I do not experience that with Dawn, but there is like a very deep belief in this. And so I think what we probably should describe our top dish soap pick as is for people who hand wash dishes, okay? And not just using it to like clean a pan or something because those are going to be people who have sponges and really care about this. And I will say I got so many emails thanking me for choosing a dish soap that doesn't make sponges smell. Okay. And we did do like kind of informal tests. We used the same sponge in testing for months with one specific soap and left it out. And Pomolive had no odor. So we decided to keep with that. But the soap itself didn't smell over time and some of the soaps kind of got like a weird smell.

Andrea: So, our next pick, which is called the best for cleaning other than washing dishes, is actually Dawn Platinum dish soap, which we loved in testing. It removed oil in seconds from plates. It was really an impressive cleaner. But beyond that, what we found it does great on is other tasks. So, it's really good as an all-purpose cleaner. It's really good for pre-treating laundry stains that are oily. And I think Christine, what we noted when going through all of the cleaning articles is that even though we had one dish soap recommendation, we were still recommending Dawn for certain cleaning tasks.

Christine: And is that one is the Dawn Platinum one? Is that also a clear dish soap or does it have

Andrea: No, it has electric blue dye. I'm pretty sure that that does not occur in nature, but it's a really good strong cleaner. And we did test on free and clear, too. And we did actually find that the scented version was more pleasant to use.

Christine: The scented and blue version was more more pleasant than the clear unscented dawn.

Andrea: Yeah. Which I also liked a lot. And then the last one we recommend is from a brand Clean Colt. One thing I'm trying to be more aware of when making recommendations is that there are a lot of people who do not want to buy plastic. And Clean Colt comes in an aluminum bottle. So, of those kinds of the dish soaps we tested. So, we tested bars and we tested several in aluminum packaging and that one was by far the best of the quote unquote plastic free. It's not entirely plastic free cuz there's a pump.

Christine: And how does it clean in relation to the Palm Olive and the Dawn?

Andrea: You might need a little more, but it still cleans well. You could totally wash your dishes with it. And again, against the competition of the same category of dish soaps, it was easily the best.

Rosie: Now, we want to get into all of the things you can actually clean with dish soap besides dishes. So, Andrea, you wrote a piece about this. We'll link it in the show notes. I want to start with using dish soap as an allpurpose cleaner, which is apparently what you're doing in your home. Tell us how do you do it? What do you clean with it?

Andrea: The ratio of dish soap to water is going to depend a little bit on what you're washing. So definitely go to our cleaning guides for specific ratios. However, as an all-purpose cleaner, I put two drops of dish soap and I'll change up the dish soap. Sometimes I'll use our top pick palm olives. Sometimes it'll be Dawn. And you fill a spray bottle of water and you put like really two or three drops maximum of dish soap into the water bottle and then shake it up and use it as a spray cleaner.

Andrea: I use it on anything that might have body oil or grease on it. So, it could be something super obvious like your kitchen backsplash, but it could also be used on yoga mats or kitchen counters. But the reason you want to limit how much soap you put into that spray bottle is that the one challenge with cleaning with dish soap is that if you use too much in a mixture, you'll have a lot of suds you have to wipe down.

Rosie: Then you have to do like a whole water wipe down. Yeah. And then and then if you've used like two gallons of water, I'm not sure you were actually saving the environment that day.

Andrea: Your personal cleaner. And when you're talking about this spray bottle, it's kind of like a large spray bottle, right? It's not like a little mini one.

Andrea: No, it's a large spray bottle. Um I have seen people use mini spray bottles with dish soap for their eyeglasses.

Christine: I think we also, if you look at our oven cleaning guide or our toaster oven cleaning guide, we are using a smaller bottle with a little bit more soap in it. So it's a little bit more concentrated, but that's a little different process. But there's so many other things you can do with it. If you look through our guides, you can clean wood floors. You can clean stainless steel. You can use it as a bathroom cleaner. I actually love using dish soap to clean. I have river tile in my shower, which is the bane of my existence. And one of the only things that actually cleans it is dish soap.

Rosie: Obviously, this is not disinfecting. So, you're not using it in your toilet, right, in the bathroom. You're maybe using it on the sink

Andrea: or Yeah. sinks, showers, faucet. Again, limiting how much you're using. Um,

Rosie: if you need to to sanitize something, I always get confused the sanit the sanitizing versus uh disinfecting.

Andrea: If you want to disinfect something, like if you just, you know, prepared raw chicken in your sink, right? We have a guide for how to do that. And you do need to use something that has like bleach in it basically to to disinfect. This is just a cleaner.

Rosie: Okay, so let's move on to the favorite topic that we've talked with you about in the past, laundry. How are you incorporating dish soap into your laundry practice?

Andrea: So, a lot of people use dish soap as a pre-treater for oily and greasy stains, and it does work on moderate stains. It does not necessarily work as well as a good laundry detergent, but what I find it to be great for with laundry is actually any and all makeup stains. Last year, I interviewed a wardrobe supervisor who works on Broadway, and she introduced me to a bunch of people in that world, and everybody uses dish soap for makeup stains backstage. In stain testing, we found that it did better than most stain removers and laundry detergents for makeup stains, especially Dawn, which is the one we recommend for that. It is also great for shoes. So, again, one of the benefits of dish soap is that it is a very neutral cleaner. So you can also use again very small amounts to clean your Crocs. You can use it to gently clean shoes. You can use it to clean outdoor equipment. It really is very very versatile.

Rosie: This is a silly question, but if you're using a dish soap like Palm Olive or Dawn that has the blue or the green dye in it, is that going to dye your white tennis shoes if you're

Andrea: It should it shouldn't. I wouldn't use a ton. If you're rinsing it off and wiping it down, it should be fine. What are some other unexpected things that you can use dish soap on as a cleaner?

Andrea: You can use dish soap to clean jewelry, mouthguards, and retainers. You can even use it for outdoor security cameras, which we have a walkthrough in our guide to how to clean security cameras. Again, really any cleaning that might have sort of residual oils, dish soap is going to be an ideal cleaner for.

Rosie: So, speaking of the guide, this really surprised me when I was reading it. You list treating poison ivy as a job for dish soap.

Andrea: I wouldn't say treating, I would say preventing.

Rosie: Okay, talk about it.

Andrea: So, if you have been exposed to poison ivy, you should use dish soap to wash off any exposed areas. And why is that? So dish soap because it's designed to break down oils can break down the oil that causes poison ivy, poison oak and poison sumac.

Rosie: Might not work, but why not try it?

Andrea: Yeah. If you ever gotten poison ivy, you know, and and is there like a certain window that you have to do this within?

Andrea: Um the experts I spoke with, I spoke to a couple of dermatologists. They both said within 20 minutes.

Rosie: What shouldn't I be using dish soap on?

Andrea: My father who loves dish soap is going to disagree with me on this one. You shouldn't wash your dogs. Oh, or your pets dish soap.

Rosie: Is that because it like strips too many oils from their skin or something?

Andrea: Yeah. And there's the gentler cleaners for for that specific task. But definitely you don't want to use it to wash your own face, right? You don't want to strip oils from your face. Um, and then the number one thing, which I would hope most people know, but I'm surprised to learn not always, is don't use it in your dishwasher.

Rosie: Why?

Andrea: Because it's designed to suds. So, it will make your kitchen sudsy.

Rosie: You know a lot about other types of cleaners. And because we've been talking about green cleaning and this whole topic, I got to ask you, you wrote this piece for their site about laundry pods and dishwashing pods. And this is a category where so many people assume that the pods are contributing to microplastics, that they're bad for the environment. Even my kid yesterday asked me about this. She was looking at a pod and said, "Hey, this has so much plastic in it." But you reported a piece that's pretty interesting that kind of refutes that. Can you explain, "Do pods shed plastic?"

Andrea: So pods do not shed microlastics. Okay. The film on pods is really similar to school glue.

Andrea: And because it dissolves, it's inherently completely different than a plastic that you'd say like is on your water bottle. microbes in the environment can break it down. And when we hold a pod, it looks and feels like plastic.

Rosie: Is it made with prochemicals?

Andrea: It can be. Um, I would say many of them are, but what I look for when I'm evaluating green cleaners is I want to see brands that are trying to use less petrochemicals without scaring people. Then you can kind of see who's marketing and who's not marketing. And one brand that I think does this really well and they do have biiobased PVA is is drops.

Rosie: PVA being

Andrea: the pod film. They use biiobased pod film. I think they're USDA certified biiobased. So they do exist but most pods are going to have petrochemicals in them.

Rosie: Okay. But when it breaks down it's not turning into

Andrea: No. It's actually if you think about it too hard it's kind of crazy that the environment is breaking down something synthetic.

Rosie: Yeah. And when we're thinking about the hierarchy of our choices in terms of, you know, the environment, you're not too worried about pods.

Andrea: No. And I I think pods can do a lot of good outside of cleaning. They shield people from chemicals, right?

Rosie: Like you're not touching it with your hands.

Andrea: You're not touching it. You're not breathing it.

Rosie: Interesting. Okay. All right. Andrea, final question. What's the last thing you bought that you really love?

Andrea: Okay, so we have a new lipstick guide.

Christine: It's a great guide.

Andrea: Yeah, it is uh from my former teammate Ayana. It's an awesome guide. And I visited my grandmother who's 99 recently and she was wearing Revlon lipstick and I had this like memory that she was always wearing Revlon lipstick and I bought a tube of the lipstick by Revlon that we recommend for our best drugstore pick, I think. And I'm obsessed with it. That particular Revlon is great.

Christine: Yeah. And it's just like exactly what you want in a lipstick. It's like old school lipstick, but I bought the shade Toast of New York and I very much like it.

Rosie: That's so nice. Sweet. I love that. Well, Andrea, thank you so much. We got to have you back soon. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Christine: I love getting schooled by Andrea. She's got like the perfect combination of practical advice, but also she goes real deep and nerdy on all of the details, which I really, really love. What are you taking away from this episode?

Rosie: Well, obviously I know you're taking it away, too. The center circle.

Christine: The center circle. Yes. Time, heat, chemical friction. Seems like you got to have at least two or three of these to make it work, right? So, I think it's a great thing to think about when you're assessing how a cleaner is working to just think about that. For me, I really I mean the the takeaway of this entire episode is essentially you can use dish soap on everything

Rosie: and probably a lot less than you think you need to use.

Christine: Well, that is also my takeaway. Um I've been using too much. I'm not going to use it on the pets. I'm not going to use it on the babies. I'm not going to use it on my face. And I'm not going to use it in the dishwasher and on your poison ivy.

Rosie: Yeah. And poison ivy. Good. Good to have in your outdoor kit for that. If you want to find out more about Wire Cutters coverage or if you want to check out any of the products Andrea mentioned today, you can head to our website. You can find a link in the show notes to her guides as well. That's it for us. Talk to you soon. Bye.

Christine: The Wire Cutter Show is executive produced by me, Rosie Garin, and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Maziello and Nick Pitman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Loausano, Alicia Eup, Rowan Nisto, Katherine Anderson, and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wire Cutters deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fman is Wire Cutters editor and chief. I'm Christine Sirette,

Rosie: and I'm Rosie Garren. Thank you for listening.

Christine: Time, heat, chemicals, friction, the same things that theoretically help the longevity of our relationship.