Host: Last week, Canada lost one of its most influential public voices, Stephen Lewis. He was 88 years old. It's impossible to summarise all the contributions he made, but here are some of the big ones. At just 26, he was elected MPP for Scarborough West. He then went on to lead the Ontario NDP. He was following in the footsteps of his father, David Lewis, an MP who later became leader of the federal NDP. But politics was only the first chapter for Stephen Lewis. He left in 1978 and stepped onto the global stage as ambassador to the United Nations. He became a powerful voice against apartheid in South Africa. And then came some of his most consequential work. He became special advisor on African affairs to the secretary general and later the UN special Envoy for HIV Aids in Africa. He didn't just raise awareness, he pushed for action, and he set up a foundation to carry on the work. His legacy is also personal. Just days before Stephen Lewis died, his son Avi was elected leader of the federal NDP. So that's his resume. But it doesn't capture his impact. Today we'll hear from Stephen Lewis in his own words and from someone who knew him well. Former Ontario Premier and former UN ambassador Bob Rae, about what Lewis meant to him and to the country. Welcome to The Rundown. Stephen Lewis was a politician, diplomat and activist, but above all a relentless advocate. I spoke with Bob Rae, Ontario's 21st Premier and former Canadian ambassador to the UN, about Lewis's passion, his politics and the mark he left on Canada. Bob Rae is a former Canadian ambassador to the United Nations and was Ontario's 21st Premier. He joins us in studio. Mr. Rae, how are you doing?

Bob Rae: Great. Nice to see you. Nice to be here for the first time after you're taking over. It's great to be with you. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Obviously here to talk about the legacy of Stephen Lewis. When you think back to Mr. Lewis, both as a person, as as a politician, what stands out to you?

Bob Rae: Well, lots of things. First of all, my first I ever heard of him was from my father, who said that my dad had come up, come down from Ottawa to be a judge in a debate in a high school debate about the UN in the 1950s. And that's where he came back. And I can remember hearing him raving to my mother about this, about David Lewis as he called him, David Lewis's boy Stephen. And my my parents knew the Lewis's in Ottawa during the during the war when they both lived there and my dad kept up his connection with with David and. And so when I came to Toronto, back to Toronto from living overseas with my parents to go to go to university, we used to go down to Queen's. We used to go over to Queen's Park and listen to the debates. Right. I was in residence at U of T and he was, you know, he was like a rock star. And it was amazing to to see him as he started out doing what he did.

Host: Do you look back on that night with any kind of special fondness?

Bob Rae: Steve that night elected me to the Ontario Legislature when I ran several years later in 1963. In fact, it was almost exactly as you say, six years later when I ran on the front cover of my campaign literature was a picture of Stephen Lewis pointing his finger at John F Kennedy, who seemed to be in intense conversation. And nobody cared that I was a New Democrat. The writing was overwhelmed by the fact that I had a picture with Kennedy, clearly relatively intimate that I passed around the writing, and I got elected because of that.

Host: You really think so?

Bob Rae: Oh, yes. He was very active on Biafra, where he was very engaged as a Canadian. Talking about that, I think it was sort of a tension in his life between he had lots of things he wanted to do and a vision that went beyond just Ontario politics. But I think he felt it was that was sort of what he was prepped to do to get into provincial politics and to become a provincial leader. And then when I was in law school, he was already become the leader and was very active on health and safety for workers. And, you know, so many causes that he took up indigenous rights. The question of how dangerous people were being treated in the province, the poisoning of water, environmental issues, women's issues. I mean, he was he was an amazing force. And then he withdrew for a while for politics and then finally re-emerged as the as the ambassador to the UN.

Host: I want to pick up on the point that you made of him being an expert orator.

Stephen Lewis (Quote): And we're not merely creating a more enlightened citizenry by making certain that education from a global perspective is central to the school system. Through the '90s and into the 21st century, we are doing much more than that. We are ultimately creating a more just, more civilised, more humane. And, one hopes, more peaceful international community.

Bob Rae: I will say that I had the honour of having Stephen Lewis as my professor at my time at Ryerson, at at TMU right now TMU and I couldn't agree more just listening to him speak with, you know, hundreds of students just in awe of what he had to say. You talk about sharing the stage with him at that podium. Help me understand. How did your political life intersect with his? What were you guys working because you had him as a as an advisor at one point when you were Premier? Yes. What was he like in that in that sort of intersection?

Bob Rae: Oh, he was terrific. He did a very good report on on racing and police policing, racism and policing. He was he was again, he was always very categorical. He was always extremely clear, very firm on the direction that he wanted to go. And. Uncompromising in the way in which he presented what he thought and how he felt. Our relationship was very warm and very close, but it was it was affected by the some of the decisions that I made as Premier, particularly the social contract, which he did. You know about that? His view. Absolutely. Both personally and in public comments. And that was difficult. And so after we were both in private life, we we met a lot because we he was involved in labour law. I was involved in legal issues. We talked quite a lot about things, but it was not quite not really the same. And then when I made what he regarded as the unforgiveable step to run for the Liberal leadership in 2006, things became pretty strained, got better after again after a bit of time. And in a funny way, it was not. You know what? I think he came to the conclusion of what he felt in the end, and the reason why he actually didn't join the caravan of people who were calling me, you know, Benedict Arnold and all the rest of it was he said, you know, you've always been a bit of a liberal. You know, you've you've always come at these issues from a more centrist kind of position. You are your father's son and I my father's son. So here we are, you know, and let's not let it destroy the relationship between us. And when I went to the UN, he was extremely helpful and kind and engaging with the work that I was doing. And when I came back in November, of course, you know, following his health issues very closely, I phoned him about two weeks ago, I guess now, I mean, just not soon before he died. And we had a very warm conversation. I said, I can come and see you. He said, no, it's just really for family. At the moment, I am dying. It was very un. Uncompromising about that. This is what's happening. But he was also very, very much wanting to have a conversation about, you know, our time together and our friendship and our differences. And, you know, we talked about my apostasy as he saw it and we talked about issues and we talked about Aids because he he was still concerned about what was happening at the UN and where funding was going and how that was being affected. And I was able to share with him that actually I'd been asked by the UN to do some work on, well, what is the future look like? And he just said, well, keep fighting. And then he said, I'll see you on the other side. I don't know whether any of us are sure about what that other side would be or what it would look like, he said. And then we can be friends again. So it was, it was, it was, it was a good moment for me of, of, of reconciliation.

Host: A tough one I imagine as well.

Bob Rae: Yes. Very hard. Yeah. Yes. I, I held it in until the end of the call, but it was tough.

Host: A bit of that story talks about his, his style and his approach as, as opposition leader.

Stephen Lewis (Quote): The women's rights issue in the New Democratic Party for the NDP has been central. For as long as I'm in the party, we never equivocate. We've made it a cause celeb from time to time, as we did with Day-care, and as we did on equal pay on a number of occasions. And I have a sense in Ontario at the moment, interesting one, that in both opposition parties there, there exists a very deep antagonism towards the way in which the government handles the whole world of women's issues, and both opposition parties would be vastly more responsive and will deal with it in a campaign, if not a central themes. And I don't know how much how else to put it. In our party. We we run it a little differently. We have conventions.

Host: Tell us a story of when he was going up against Bill Davis in the '70s, he still had this collegial approach in his politics help for people who aren't familiar with sort of those days of being the opposition and being in that position, what was he like?

Bob Rae: Well, I mean, there was a combination of things. There was politics, not just in the legislature, but in in Canada. Politics was a a profession or a way of life, whatever you want to call it, where the people who were there, who were the practitioners who were really engaged, gave it their all and did what they did and believed what they what they said they wanted to do and what they did. And Stephen was a relentless critic of the of the government. It was a minority government. So that made it a little bit more complicated. At one point he was leader of the opposition. At another point he was he was in the third party. But there was no big difference between them. And he he had a strong personal relationship with Bill Davis and with Roy McMurtry. Both of them were were from very close friends of Stephen's and, and and were none of them. None of the three of them made any bones about about their, their friendship. But Stephen never pulled his punches either.

Stephen Lewis (Quote): Compared to the respect, the civility, the decent behaviour which was characteristic of Bill Davis's tenure as Premier. We fought bitterly across the floor of the House of Commons. We had deep ideological convictions, but people liked each other and they regarded each other with even with affection. I regard the Premier, the former Premier of Ontario, with affection. To this day, I. I love the guy. He says publicly that I was given to philosophic errors. Well, I regard his political views as beyond redemption, but he brought to the politics of Ontario a a kind of basic regard and respect in the conduct, the dialogue of of discussion.

Bob Rae: I think that sometimes people find that hard to believe. I mean, you know, you there's less of that that goes on in politics today. From what I've been able to see, I, I wrote about this in a book I wrote called What's Happened to Politics? Just to give people a sense of, well, this is how it used to be and this is what it became. There was a the famous radio show on CBC that Stephen did, where it was Stephen and Dalton Camp and Eric Kierans all talking about politics in a way that I think surprised Canadians, but also delighted them. And nobody really held back on their on their views or on their feelings. But it was it was just the way you had had a kind of civilised conversation. And Stephen was very, very capable of that. But there was in a sense there was another side of it because I think maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm over Analyzing. But I think he felt an almost obligation to to become a political leader, that that's what he was supposed to do and he was good at it. But there was a large part of him which really didn't enjoy it all the time and found it very difficult at an emotional level, and it pulled him in all kinds of directions. I think he was very, very much a family person in terms of his own family. And I remember there was a moment in time after Ed Broadbent retired, when there was a lot of speculation about Would Stephen go in and he and I exchanged. We had in those days we used to write letters and I wrote him a letter saying, if you if you want to talk, you know, when we can get together, let's. So when he came, when we were both together in Toronto and he was just leaving the UN as ambassador, and it was the moment at which he could have made the shift and to be the federal leader. And he said, I don't want to do it. I just do not want to go through this again. And he pulled back in that way. And I think there was a whole side of Stephen that was it was really driven to be more prophetic in his role, to create the foundation, to fight for the causes that he wanted to fight for without having to do all the things that you have to do. If you're in the job of being a political leader, which is much, much harder than you, it's harder than it looks.

Host: I imagine it's much harder nowadays as well. And I am curious, how do you think he would view what's going on right now in the world? Just politics on its own?

Bob Rae: Well, I know how he felt. I mean, I certainly I know I know how he felt about Trump. I know how he felt about concerns about where the federal government was going. I mean, he had very strong views about and about what was happening and not happening with the New Democratic Party. He was he was very concerned. I also know that he was thrilled when Avi decided to do the job and and was hugely supportive of him and really wanted to make it across the finish line before, you know, see what the result of, of the election of the convention would be.

Host: Pretty remarkable.

Bob Rae: Yes. Very remarkable.

Host: Let's talk a little bit about your time as Canadian ambassador. Of course, as you mentioned, both held the same position. What did you learn from him to sort of inform your time there as well?

Bob Rae: Well, we we had a couple of really good chats about. You know, when my father did the job, my father was a diplomat. My father was a trained public servant. And he felt very strongly that there were limits to what he could fight on the inside. He could argue with people about why are we taking this point? Why do we take that point? But then once the decision is made, you know, that's what you do. And that's true. That's the structure. But both Stephen and I coming at it from a more political angle, and I talked about about this with him very much. He first thing he said was, you have to be able to call the Prime Minister, and you have to be able to talk to the Prime Minister's team directly, as well as to ministers and others. But you need to have that personal relationship, right? And I, I did I was appointed by Justin Trudeau and he listened to what, what I, what I thought. And then he would say, well, there'd be their own cabinet processes. And he'd say, I know it's not everything you want, but this is what we can do. And I know that Stephen felt very, very strongly that there were people within the government and within the Department of Foreign Affairs. Is that then was that, you know, we're not keen on some of the things he wanted to do. He was more of a free spirit than I think most diplomats had been. And I must confess that I. I did the same thing. I felt that I'd been given a bit of a licence by Mr. Trudeau to speak out more emphatically on things, not to pull my own punches and. But to always do it sort of within the range of of government policy. And it's a hard it's a it's a bit of a tightrope. And there are moments when you feel this is too, too difficult, but yeah, I was, I think Stephen was a different kind of figure. He, he had a feeling for Africa and he had a feeling for issues around race and around the sense of discrimination that the people in the developing world felt and still feel very profoundly. And he, he, he pushed me to, to remember that and not to abandon that, that understanding, because it's very important for those countries to know that there are people in Canada who really understand the issues that are coming at them. And he did that in an exceptional way. Plus, he pushed really hard for women's rights. He was he was instrumental in creating the agency that is now struggling again because of all the cuts UN women to, to really sort of drive that agenda.

Host: Well, let's talk a little bit about sort of that focus that he put on his work in Africa when he was special envoy for HIV Aids. You talk about sort of the toll it took, the politics had taken on him, but that work also had taken a toll because there was a lot of heavy stuff that he had to work through and see as well.

Stephen Lewis (Quote): I feel I am at times right on the edge. I mean, I feel self-conscious about talking about it because what does it matter what I feel compared to what's happening to people over there? But in personal terms, I do feel unbalanced. Sometimes I feel my rage is almost out of control. Sometimes I, I feel that effectiveness can be compromised when you get too angry. I've learned that in politics and diplomacy and multilateralism. I'm aware, therefore, of the deficiencies. But on the other hand, I'm also aware that you have to keep fighting, and you've got to grit your teeth and swallow the rage. I think I would say that of the various recommendations in the book, the one I value most would be to create a woman's agency. So powerful and so representative as to confront the establishment across the world, Africa and the G8, and visibly insinuate itself into the portals of the United Nations so as to transform the multilateral response to the pandemic. We will never break the back of the pandemic if the women cannot prevail, this bloody pandemic will go on forever.

Bob Rae: I think what he liked about that role was he was able to keep his keep his work with the foundation that he created and used that foundation as a as a driving force to raise money in Canada and, and to work hard with with President Clinton's foundation and other foundations that worked very, very hard to build that. And he also was able to drive the issue within the UN. But Steven was uniquely equipped to deal with that because in a sense, he'd been fighting those kinds of fights his whole life. Right? Those were the fights he had in in Ontario in the 1960s and 1970s. And yes, he the a lot of people have talked about his moral clarity, but it was his moral clarity that actually gave him the ability to, to, to drive an issue. And people say things like, well, you know, we public opinion says this and we can't really budget very much. He just he just pushed, he realised that he wanted to change. And in that sense, he had a kind of prophetic quality to, to, to his leadership, which made him sometimes a little self-righteous because other people would say, well, I care about this too, but maybe I care about it in a different way. But he it was that capacity for, for taking, going, being 2 or 3 steps ahead of people that allowed him to push the system to do what it needed to do. Yeah. We wouldn't have made the progress on all these issues that we have made without Steven Lewis. There's no question in my mind about that.

Host: There's just even a short conversation, a number of stories that are obviously imprinted in your head when you think about CTV Lewis, is there one personal story that sticks out to you?

Bob Rae: Well, he was quite wonderful when in the last few days of the election in 1990, when. You know, it looked like we might win and none of us could believe it because it hadn't looked that way at the beginning of the campaign. And he agreed to become head of our transition team. And we had a lot of very good conversations about what this meant and how much he had done and how much his father had done, and how many other people had made this moment possible in the life of the province. And when on October the 1st I was sworn in, he that day he had been invited to do Oprah, and he said, no, I'm not doing Oprah. Forget Oprah can forget it. I'm going to see Bob Rae sworn in as premier of Ontario. And I think the people that did Oprah said, what? You know who Oprah is? Do they know.

Host: Who Bob Rae is?

Bob Rae: Joe is? And he said, well, I'm sorry. This is what I'm going to do. And I've always I've always remembered that as a particular act of sacrifice on his part.

Bob Rae: There's no question in my mind that Stephen Lewis, who had been fighting inoperable abdominal cancer for eight years, hung on just long enough to see his son get the same job that his father, David Lewis, had back in the 1960s, and that is leader of the federal NDP. Yeah. And there's something kind of poetically beautiful about the fact that he got to see that happen.

Host: Absolutely. I want to know a little bit about how you situate the Lewis family. As we talked about Avi, we talk about David. Where does their family stack up when we talk about in Canadian political history.

Bob Rae: Or really at the centre of the the social democratic, democratic socialist movement in in the country, the, the, the NDP would not have been created as a as a, as a successor party to the CCF without David Lewis. I mean, he, he was a truly foundational figure. And I got to know him a little bit towards the very end of his life when he was in living in Ottawa. And I would see him as a new MP. And he was very, very thoughtful guy and very knowledgeable about, you know, what was going on. And much, much more concerned about the long term arc of what we were all trying to do. And an immensely tough, not in a kind of mean way, but just like, just this is not a picnic, you know, this, this is, this is a tough, a tough, a tough struggle. Stephen. I think I've talked about in his own way. He was uniquely me. We'll see. I mean, I think he hasn't been at the heart of of of, of politics for really forever. When I was campaigning in the '80s, Avi was working on he was the sound guy, right. And then he went off and did his own thing. And, you know, it was a teacher and an academic and so many different filmmaker and so many different parts of his, of his, of his life and of his own trajectory. But the one thing I would say is to anybody who says, oh, the NDP is done. I mean, I I'm not a member. I've decided to do try to do what I can do politically in another political family. But don't underestimate Avi Lewis. And don't underestimate the New Democratic Party, because by virtue of the lives that we're leading now and the level of challenges and changes that we're seeing, Social Democratic Party has got something to say. And I think that's that's that's going to be with us, and it's going to be a factor and a force in political life. To what extent? We don't know. I'm a big supporter of Mr. Carney. I think he's got a good grip on what Canada needs to be doing and moving towards. So we'll just see how, how how it unfolds for for Ravi.

Host: Have you had a chance to speak to Avi Lewis.

Bob Rae: Sent him a note. Send him a note. He's a busy guy.

Host: Any words of advice for him?

Bob Rae: I wouldn't, I wouldn't I wouldn't give him any advice because he wouldn't take it and and he wouldn't appreciate it coming from me. He's very much on the side of those. There are New Democrats who crossed the street so they won't have to talk to me. And there are other Democrats who are still very close friends. I'm afraid Avi is in the first category.

Host: All right. My last question to you. We talk about how you remember Mr. Lewis, but how do you think Stephen Lewis will be remembered?

Bob Rae: I think he'll be remembered as an incredible life force in the in the history of the country and as a as a figure whose eloquence and whose whose work and the incredible efforts that he made not only at home but around the world, are a symbol of what of what Canada can do. I, I really do think he's he's the best of us. He's the best of Canada. And we can be very proud of what he's done. And I think he'll be remembered. I think we're seeing it and we've seen it over the last week. I mean, Stephen had been very ill for a number of years and had been really very private person for a long period of time, and now people are just coming out, coming out on the streets just saying, yeah, of course we want to celebrate the this, this person, this man's great contribution. He's, he's, he's been a life changer for a great many people.

Host: Mr. Ray, we're going to have to leave it there. But thank you so much for taking the time to sit with me to share your stories in honour of Stephen Lewis.

Bob Rae: It's a pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.

Host: I'm Jeyan. Thanks for watching The Rundown. What do you want to know more about? Email us at TheRundown@TVO.org or leave a comment on YouTube. And as always, let us know what you think. Until then, I'll see you tomorrow.