访谈开端与背景介绍

柴静: Hello, is this Mr. Xiong Zhaozheng? Mr. Xiong Zhaozheng? Hello, I am 柴静. Yes, I used to be a reporter at the 中央电视台. Now I am doing an independent interview show. 然后这个星期呢,我要播出一期对于野夫的采访他谈到了在六四期间跟您的一段往事所以出于我希望能够准确和公正的来呈现这件事情所以我想给您打个电话看看您是否能够谈一谈

熊召政的回应与顾虑

熊召政: 哎呀 我一直不想談這件事情因為歷史總會有一天會得相出來以前該說的我都說過了 但我也不想說太多 因為現在已經三十多年過去了 對吧您一直說找一個恰當的時間想談一談您今年也七十歲了所以我想知道說會不會有現在有可能是一個時機你們能夠開聲不公的講一講這件事呢

熊召政: 我還是覺得現在還不是強的時候那什麼時候您覺得合適呢?我還是覺得因為一個人就那一點事情要一直扛延的就不想去輸贏 人生也不需要也不值得用這種方式去回憶因為有歷史的真相它總會有一天還原的

柴静的切入与尊重

柴静: Yes, Mr. Xu, you and your father were also classmates, brothers, and friends. He also respected you very much. He was indeed imprisoned and self-sacrificed for this matter. He suffered a lot of trauma in life, so he thinks he is worth a truth. Ah, this...

柴静: 慢慢的 因為你才好怕因為我現在在這個鄉村路上走可能幸好隨時就會斷掉因為我也不想去談這些事情熊先生 我是很尊重您的我也看過您的作品我也知道就是在张居正这个作品写作当中您的心理的感受我也多多少少有所瞭解我覺得您也是在意深厚明的 我也不希望以目前这种,因为如果以野夫的这段陈述,您不予回应或者是反驳的话,那么呈现出来的个人形象就有可能会是一个告密者,甚至是陷害者。我不认为这是一个人或者一个知识分子希望留在历史上的形象,所以我希望给您机会表达。

熊召政的简短否认

熊召政: 究竟誰是下函者告密者現在我認為至少我不想講這些因為我不是 我也不需要辯解什麼

柴静阐述野夫的困惑

柴静: 他可能比较不能够理解的是说,当年他应您的要求到广州去送这份文件,您告诉他海外民阵的人拿走了,但后来检察院提出的这个诉讼当中没有您的名字,也没有海外民阵的人的名字,文件也都在,所以他有很多的迷惑,这个我想心情是可以理解的,对吧?就是为什么您没有入罪,而他服了牢狱之灾。

柴静的持续沟通与观察

柴静: Mr. Xiu, are you still busy? Mr. Xiu Mr. Xiu, it's okay. If you don't want to talk, you can tell me. I will respect your wishes.

柴静: 在我的心中,我认为您可能还是有思量。我看过您的诗词和文章,您也有很多中国知识分子其实没有的古典的修养。 I think you have a sense of pride. So, back to that historical era, everyone may have a reason to explain, and may also understand. If you can say it, I think whether it's to your friends back then, or to yourself, maybe it's all a kind of show. Don't you think so?

柴静: You remain silent, but you didn't hang up my phone. Then let me say a few more words. When 英若诚 was in the late years, he wrote "The Clouds of Water and the Clouds of Clouds". When 冯亦代 was in the late years, he wrote "The Sunset of the Ruins". When intellectuals have something in their hearts, they still want to explain to history, to themselves, to their friends. Because history is very complicated, and humanity is also very deep.

柴静: 所以我想 就是如果说未来人们评价您的时候,我希望能够有一个您陈述的角度,将您自己的家人后辈,未来的那一代人,可以更客观地来看这段历史。 你想想 從1990 Until now, you have promised Yefu to give him an explanation. You can sit down and talk. You even said that you would apologize to him in front of President Liu and other classmates and tell them about this past. So I always feel that you may have this desire to clear the land. But if you keep silent like this, that is, keep avoiding it, I believe you also have a heavy burden in your heart.

柴静: 对了,我不觉得那种负担是好受的。我看到冯亦代说他晚年的时候,他就是没有办法睡着觉。我看到阴若诚晚年在医院的时候,他跟阴大说,他认为他身边的每一个人都是告密者,都是间谍。他过得很不舒坦。

柴静: So if you had to say something that you wanted to say, I would like to tell you that I am listening. I am willing to understand. Would you like to say it? I know you are still here. You didn't hang up on me. You may still be here. 但是我不希望这个电话的记录成为你面对这个历史的最终态度。 我會一直等下去等到要么您說話要么您把這個電話掛斷