Host: So thank you so much for being here. We've tried a number of times to get you to All-In and it's great to finally have you. You obviously are a legend that doesn't need much of an introduction lately in the last number of call it years or months or quarters or what have you. It seems like your investment philosophy may be changing your model where you've been activist and you've entered positions and exited positions and lately you've talked a lot about more kind of permanent long-term holdings. Would love to hear a little bit about if that is actually a change and how your evolution and your investment model has kind of changed over time.

Bill Ackman: Sure. So I would say the biggest change over time is an appreciation for the importance of I call business quality—long-term durable protected non-disruptible growth. I would say early days you're smaller more liquid investor. You don't have to think as long term as you become a bigger concentrated investor. And over time you learn the importance of durable kind of growth. That's the most important factor. I would say I'm as activist as I've ever been. But more of it's on Twitter than I would say in the corporate context. And the reason for that is when I started in Pershing Square, no one sort of knew who we were. And so I actually one of our first investments was Wendy's International. Wendy's owned Tim Hortons, the Canadian coffee and donut chain. And the value of Tim Hortons was more than the entire value of Wendy's. So we had this very simple idea. Buy Wendy's spin-off Tim Horton's double our money. And I called the CEO and he didn't return my call and I called him again. He didn't return my call. I literally couldn't get a return phone call. That was the beginning. So we actually called a friend who worked at Blackstone and Steve Schwarzman agreed to write a fairness opinion on what Wendy's would be worth if we spun off Tim Hortons. We kind of mailed it in and filed it publicly and 6 weeks later they spun off. And then the CEO finally called me back and he thanked me. He had gotten fired, but he thanked me cuz he had a huge exit package and he was very happy.

Host: I just want to connect this last conversation with Sarah to this. Um, are you an investor in the AI complex and how do you underwrite business model quality from what you see on the outside in the entire complex?

Bill Ackman: I mean, yes, effectively we're an investor. Actually today we own Microsoft, we own Meta, we own Amazon. Uh actually I think you're either directly or indirectly you're invested in AI. Or it's a threat. So you have to understand it. How do I think about AI in a business model context? Look, when you're a concentrated investor or investor generally and your long-term investor, the most important and most challenging thing to do is determine what's the risk of disruption. What's the risk of two guys, two women from Stanford in a garage, you know, coming up with something? That risk, I think, has gone up dramatically. This is the greatest era in history to build a business, right? There's unlimited access to compute, certainly for a startup, unlimited access to capital, and a lot of incredible talent, which means that the probability of your being disrupted has gone up enormously. So the hardest thing you have to do as an investor is understand that's really where we spend most of our time. What's interesting about markets is people always bring their eye to the new new thing. Um and the new new thing is sort of chips and semiconductors and energy and that's where the shorter term capital's going. What tends to happen is really high quality things get left behind.

Host: Is there any way to underwrite 100 times revenue, 50 times revenue, 150 times revenue in these companies or are these just tremendously overvalued because of the demand side?

Bill Ackman: I think you underwrite a SpaceX the way you underwrite a venture capital investment. So, everyone here invests in venture, right? You bet on who's running it, right? The talent is enormous. Um, it's people. They taught me, I had a professor business school. He said, "People, opportunity, context, deal." So on people, SpaceX, one of one. Opportunity, one of one. Context, incredible. Then you get to deal. That's the more complicated question for SpaceX. If you're a billion, a trillion, 750 billion, then you say, okay, well, let's think 5 years out. What does this company look like? What is Starlink? What's the trajectory of Starlink? SpaceX is near monopoly in terms of low cost space launch. Anthropic, OpenAI fall into this category. They're venture investments that what what's helpful is they're not seed or series A, right? They're D or E, but they're still like venture investments. These companies have proven they can generate a lot of revenues.

Host: Have you looked at founder-led companies versus non-founder-led companies where perhaps the founders really do have an inherent advantage in being able to navigate these changing environments? If you're not founder led, you have an incentive to not make a mistake and get fired. If you're founder led, your job is to make sure the company persists.

Bill Ackman: Yeah, I think the answer is exactly what you said. I think the problem is that the average life of an S&P 500 CEO is probably four years or three and a half years and you're focused on shorter term compensation. You generally don't have a big economic stake in the business. You're a founder. This is your entire life. It's your entire reputation. Also when you're in the boardroom, you have the authority of either being a major voting voice or you've got a huge economic stake in the company. You look at Mark Zuckerberg right when he bought Instagram everyone was shocked at the price paid or WhatsApp... but you make enough of those calls and you can make the other challenging call.

Host: Tell us um a little bit about Howard Hughes and you've talked a little bit about Berkshire Hathaway 2.0 or just being inspired by that.

Bill Ackman: There's a book called the financial history of Berkshire Hathaway. Buffett was really the first to focus more on the asset side of the balance sheet than on the liability side. If you manage the assets well and the liabilities well you can build this enormously profitable compounding tax-efficient machine. Howard Hughes owns these small cities. Summerlin, we own all the commercial land, all the residential land... but the time frame is decades as opposed to quarters. So Wall Street's never cared. What we're doing is instead of reinvesting all the cash the business generates into real estate, we're going to reinvest all the cash into insurance. We're going to build this into a compounding machine over the next 50 years.

Bill Ackman: 我不认为市场因为我的追随者增长而改变。但像 Ryan Cohen（GameStop 事件）那种情况确实改变了市场，当一只股票的估值可以仅仅依靠个性和召集“粉丝大军”的能力而远超其实际价值时。关于流动性和估值，最奇妙的一点是：股价涨得越高，公司反而变得越有价值。因为它降低了资本成本，给你更多灵活性去融资或收购。Elon Musk 是最好的例子，他建立了一群信徒和追随者，这使得 Tesla 得以建成。

我一直渴望说出事物的真相。我的高中毕业寄语是“最啰嗦的人”，而我朋友在旁边写的是“闭上的嘴不会招来脚踢”。这就是我生活的准则。能够分享你的观点并通过一个按钮触达 220 万人，这是一种非常强大的力量。