人质广场的希望与期待

From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams and this is The Daily. Early Monday morning, thousands of people had already gathered in what's become known as Hostage Square in Tel Aviv.

我是《纽约时报》的雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯，这里是“The Daily”节目。周一清晨，数千人已经聚集在特拉维夫（Tel Aviv）被称为人质广场（Hostage Square: 以色列特拉维夫市中心的一个公共广场，因作为要求释放人质的集会地点而闻名）的地方。

"I'm so happy right now. I stayed awake all night just to see everything. It's amazing that everybody's coming back."

“我此刻非常高兴。我整晚没睡，只为见证这一切。所有人都回来了，这太棒了。”

News broke that the first group of hostages had returned to Israel, starting an exchange for Palestinian prisoners and detainees that was expected to begin later in the day. Over the past few days, the world has seen dramatic scenes unfold from Israel and Gaza. In Gaza, thousands of Palestinians are returning to their homes and their neighborhoods, and they're seeing firsthand the devastation that two years of war has brought.

消息传来，第一批人质已返回以色列，这标志着原定于当天晚些时候开始的巴勒斯坦囚犯和被拘留者交换行动正式启动。在过去的几天里，世界目睹了以色列和加沙（Gaza）地区发生的戏剧性场面。在加沙，数千名巴勒斯坦人正返回他们的家园和社区，亲眼目睹了两年战争带来的破坏。

As international journalists continue to wait for access to the strip, today I talk with families of hostages and other Israelis in Hostage Square about this long-anticipated moment, and also with my colleague Isabel Kersner about why the hostages have been so pivotal in the efforts to end the war. It's Monday, October 13th.

在国际记者继续等待进入加沙地带（the Strip: 指加沙地带，巴勒斯坦沿海地区）的机会之际，今天我与人质家属和人质广场上的其他以色列人谈论这个期待已久的时刻，也与我的同事伊莎贝尔·克什纳（Isabel Kersner）讨论了人质为何在结束战争的努力中如此关键。今天是10月13日，星期一。

抵达特拉维夫：人质的印记

Ladies and gentlemen, we welcome you to Vanura International Airport here in Tel Aviv. Our arrival time is approximately 9. As the ceasefire took effect in Gaza, I flew to Israel with daily producer Claire Tennisceter to ask people how they're feeling and what they're thinking. So, we just got off the plane. We haven't even been walking maybe five minutes, and all along this very brightly lit hallway are pictures of the hostages.

各位女士先生，欢迎您来到特拉维夫的瓦努拉国际机场。我们大约在9点抵达。随着加沙地带停火生效，我与《The Daily》制作人克莱尔·坦尼斯塞特（Claire Tennisceter）一同飞往以色列，询问人们的感受和想法。我们刚下飞机，走了不到五分钟，这条灯火通明的走廊两旁就挂满了人质的照片。

And within minutes of arriving, we started seeing reminder after reminder of the remaining hostages in Gaza. They list the ages of the hostages on some of these posters, and some of them are crossed out with new ages as they've, I guess, gotten older.

抵达几分钟之内，我们便不断看到关于加沙地带剩余人质的提示。有些海报上列出了人质的年龄，其中一些被划掉，并写上了新的年龄，我想是因为他们又长大了一岁。

"This guy 34, crossed out 35, crossed out, now it says 36."

“这个人34岁，划掉了，35岁，划掉了，现在写着36岁。”

As soon as we dropped off our luggage, we went straight to what's become the epicenter of the push to return the hostages to Israel, a place known as Hostage Square. It's a concrete public plaza between an art museum and a public library, and it's across the street from the Israeli military's headquarters. And in the weeks and months following October 7th, this place developed into a sort of living, interactive memorial to the hostages that were taken on that day.

我们放下行李后，立刻前往了后来成为推动人质返回以色列运动中心的地方——人质广场。这是一个位于艺术博物馆和公共图书馆之间的混凝土公共广场，与以色列国防军（IDF: Israel Defense Forces，以色列的军事力量）总部隔街相望。在10月7日之后的几周和几个月里，这里逐渐发展成为一个为当天被劫持人质而设的活生生的、互动式的纪念场所。

"What's going on over in this?"

“这边在发生什么？”

"So, this is actually like a little synagogue. There are big white canvas tents. Some of them are for shade. Some of them are sort of information booths. The tent of prayer and good deeds, t-shirts, hats, flags, and there are little pop-up stores selling t-shirts and books and pins, the yellow ribbons, and the whole space has become a kind of remembrance area."

“这是一个小型的犹太会堂（synagogue: 犹太教徒举行宗教仪式的场所）。这里有许多白色的大帆布帐篷，有些用于遮阳，有些是信息亭。有‘祈祷与善行之帐’，还有售卖T恤、帽子、旗帜的小型快闪店，以及书籍、徽章和黄色丝带。整个空间已经变成了一个纪念区。”

Rachel Abrams: Can you tell us what you're doing?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：你能告诉我们你在做什么吗？

A citizen: I write a message for the hostages.

一位民众：我正在为人质写一封信。

Every square inch of this place seems like it has a photo of a hostage or a message for them or some kind of memento. And there are other things that feel very specific to this place and to this war. There's a piano that anybody can come up and play because one hostage loved to play the piano.

这里的每一寸地方似乎都贴着人质的照片，或写着给他们的信息，或摆放着某种纪念品。还有一些东西，让人感觉与这个地方、这场战争息息相关。有一架钢琴，任何人都可以上前弹奏，因为其中一位人质生前热爱弹钢琴。

Rachel Abrams: Can you describe what we're looking at?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：你能描述一下我们现在看到的景象吗？

A citizen: It's the remaking of the tunnel.

一位民众：这是隧道的重现。

And there's even a kind of an interactive artistic replica of a Hamas (Hamas: 巴勒斯坦伊斯兰抵抗运动组织) tunnel where the hostages are believed to be held. I remember the tunnel from the last time I was in Israel over the summer when it felt so different. There was no hostage deal in sight. The mood was somber and despondent, angry. But now coming back, the mood was optimistic and people were excited.

甚至还有一个互动式的艺术复制品，重现了哈马斯地道，据信人质就被关押在那里。我记得夏天上次来以色列时也见过这个地道，当时的感觉截然不同。那时人质交易遥遥无期，气氛阴沉、绝望、愤怒。但现在回来，气氛乐观，人们都很兴奋。

"We're so happy, so we celebrate. So we are offering a free cake for everyone."

“我们太高兴了，所以我们庆祝。我们为大家提供免费蛋糕。”

"Free cake."

“免费蛋糕。”

"Yeah."

“是的。”

The other remarkable difference was that there were outpours of gratitude for President Trump and his role in brokering the hostage deal.

另一个显著的不同是，人们对特朗普总统及其在促成人质交易中的作用表达了由衷的感谢。

Rachel Abrams: Can you tell me what your sign says?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：你能告诉我你的标语上写了什么吗？

A citizen: "Thank you, President Trump." Because we want him to know that we are thanking him from the bottom of our hearts.

一位民众：“谢谢你，特朗普总统。”因为我们想让他知道，我们发自内心地感谢他。

The square is where the families of the hostages have come since the beginning of the war, demanding that the military and the government bring their loved ones home. And it's also where thousands of supporters and protesters have come to weekly rallies to show solidarity and support for those families. And so after we spent some time taking in the scene, we asked a few family members to talk to us about how they were feeling just hours before the final hostages were supposed to come home.

自从战争爆发以来，人质家属就一直来到这个广场，要求军方和政府将他们的亲人带回家。成千上万的支持者和抗议者也每周来到这里集会，表达对这些家庭的声援和支持。因此，在我们在现场待了一段时间后，我们采访了几位家属，请他们谈谈在最后一批人质即将回家前几个小时的感受。

莫沙·莱维：等待亲人归来

Rachel Abrams: Tell us who you are and why you're here today.

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：请告诉我们你是谁，以及你今天为什么会在这里。

Mosha Levie: I'm the brother-in-law of Omry, held hostage for two years now. I'm here. We met Mosha Levie in the lobby of the library along the square where families of hostages sometimes go to get away from the crowds, and it was very important for the family.

莫沙·莱维（Mosha Levie）：我是奥姆里（Omry）的妹夫/姐夫，他被劫持为人质已经两年了。我在这里。我们在广场旁的图书馆大厅遇到了莫沙·莱维，那里是人质家属有时避开人群的地方，这对这个家庭来说非常重要。

Mosha was wearing a t-shirt with a picture of his brother-in-law Omry holding up one of his two young daughters in the air.

莫沙穿着一件T恤，上面印着他姐夫/妹夫奥姆里高高举起他两个年幼女儿中一个的照片。

Mosha Levie: Omry has two young daughters. They were held captive themselves on that day with my sister, luckily rescued, and hoping that this will end. I just arrived yesterday with my sister Lishai from DC. That's where we got the good news and we rushed back here and I'm very excited to finally conclude this chapter.

莫沙·莱维：奥姆里有两个年幼的女儿。那天她们和我的妹妹一同被囚禁，幸好获救了，现在希望这一切能结束。我昨天刚和妹妹利沙（Lishai）从华盛顿特区（DC）赶到这里。我们在那里得到了好消息，然后匆匆赶回来，我非常高兴能最终结束这一篇章。

Rachel Abrams: When you think of Omry, do you have an image that comes to mind?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：当你想到奥姆里时，脑海中会浮现出怎样的画面？

Mosha Levie: Omry for me is always going to be the smiling man who made my sister happy after difficult years. It's the love of her life. That's what I have in my mind. You know, the smiling face, the bashful eyes, and the heart, this big heart that entered our family.

莫沙·莱维：对我来说，奥姆里永远是那个历经磨难后让我的妹妹幸福快乐的微笑男人。他是我妹妹的挚爱。我脑海中浮现的就是他的笑脸，他那羞涩的眼神，以及那颗走进我们家庭的宽广的心。

Rachel Abrams: If you had to guess, what do you think Omry's the first thing Omry will want to do when he gets home?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：如果让你猜，你认为奥姆里回家后最想做的第一件事会是什么？

Mosha Levie: No, I don't want to suppose what he wants to do. He didn't have a choice for two years. And ever since we received the news, our focus is now on preparations, from small things like preparing a bag for Omry because when he arrives, he would want to wear something that is not what terrorists forced him to wear.

莫沙·莱维：不，我不想猜测他想做什么。他两年都没有选择的自由。自从我们收到消息以来，我们现在专注于准备工作，从准备一个给奥姆里的包这样的小事开始，因为他回来的时候，他会想穿一些不是恐怖分子强迫他穿的衣服。

Rachel Abrams: Have you thought about the first thing you want to say to him?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：你有没有想过你最想对他说的话是什么？

Mosha Levie: Just a hug. And primarily, I just want to see my sister and nieces hug him. I'm not important for that. I hope they'll have that moment, and I hope it will be the most beautiful moment in their life.

莫沙·莱维：只是一个拥抱。主要是我只想看到我的妹妹和侄女们拥抱他。我对此并不重要。我希望她们能拥有那一刻，我希望那将是她们生命中最美丽的时刻。

鲁比·亨：无尽的等待与失去

Family members like Mosha are in so many different situations. Some of them are waiting for hostages they know are alive. For others, they don't know. They're uncertain, and it's unclear how much hope they should have, but still they hope to be on the cusp of some kind of ending.

像莫沙这样的家庭成员处境各不相同。有些人正在等待他们知道还活着的人质。对于另一些人，他们一无所知，充满不确定性，不清楚应该抱有多大希望，但他们仍然希望能够迎来某种结局。

A citizen: Thank you so much for us. It's a difficult day.

一位民众：非常感谢我们。这是艰难的一天。

Another person we met at Hostage Square who had a family member go missing during the war was Ruby Hen.

我们在人质广场遇到的另一位在战争中失去亲人的家属是鲁比·亨（Ruby Hen）。

Ruby Hen: I'm a New Yorker, grew up in Flatbush, and I met my wife in Israel and we decided to have a home here.

鲁比·亨：我是个纽约客，在弗拉特布什（Flatbush）长大，我在以色列遇到了我的妻子，然后我们决定在这里安家。

Ruby and his wife raised their three kids in Israel, but would frequently travel to the US.

鲁比和他的妻子在以色列抚养了三个孩子，但他们会经常前往美国。

Ruby Hen: My eldest inherited my love for the New York Knicks, and he ties being the middle son, the more rebellious one. He decided to be a Celtics fan for the love of God. I don't know how that happened, but I feel that I failed as a father. And when the war broke out, one of his sons, the one with the rebellious streak, was performing his mandatory military service. Unlike his elder sibling that went to a technology unit, he of course decided to do something totally different and he wanted to go into combat and he joined the tanks division. And on that fatal October 7th, he was on the board of Gaza at a base called Nahal Oz, which is kind of in the middle of the Gaza Strip, and they were ambushed. They got hit by a few anti-tank missiles and the tank was neutralized, and we were totally in the dark.

鲁比·亨：我的大儿子继承了我对纽约尼克斯队（New York Knicks）的热爱，而二儿子，那个更叛逆的孩子。他竟然决定成为凯尔特人队（Celtics）的球迷，天哪。我不知道这怎么发生的，但我感觉我作为父亲失败了。战争爆发时，他其中一个儿子，就是那个有点叛逆的孩子，正在服义务兵役。他不像他哥哥去了技术部队，他当然决定做一些完全不同的事情，他想去参战，他加入了坦克师。在那个致命的10月7日，他正在加沙边境的一个名为纳哈尔奥兹（Nahal Oz: 加沙边境的一个基布兹，军事基地所在地）的基地，那里大致位于加沙地带中部，他们遭到了伏击。他们被几枚反坦克导弹击中，坦克被摧毁，我们对此一无所知。

Ruby Hen: Monday, we went to the missing people command center that was put together by the police, and they said, "Well, he's missing in action," meaning no one is able to identify him physically standing next to him. He wasn't in one of the hospitals. And a few days after, we got notified that he is indeed a hostage in Gaza. And we're sitting there and, "Okay, do you have anything else to tell us? Where is he now?" "Oh, we don't know." "Okay, then we're doing..." So they waited, hoping for a positive sign, desperate for information on how their son was doing.

鲁比·亨：周一，我们去了警方设立的失踪人员指挥中心，他们说：“嗯，他失踪了，”这意味着没有人能够亲自识别他。他不在任何一家医院里。几天后，我们接到通知，他确实是加沙地带的人质。我们坐在那里，问道：“好的，你们还有什么要告诉我们的吗？他现在在哪里？”“哦，我们不知道。”“好吧，那我们……”所以他们等待着，希望能有积极的迹象，迫切地想知道他们儿子的情况。

Ruby Hen: In March 24, we got another knock on the door. Then a few months later, Ruby got a very different message where the IDF concluded based on intelligence that he most likely did not survive on October 7th. And we asked, "Okay, where's the physical evidence?" He says, "Oh, we don't have that." So, we understand, we looked at, I looked at the intelligence. I understand that most likely Tai is not one of the 20, but he is no less of a hostage.

鲁比·亨：24年3月，我们又听到了敲门声。几个月后，鲁比收到了一个截然不同的消息：以色列国防军根据情报得出结论，他的儿子很可能在10月7日没有生还。我们问：“好吧，那物理证据在哪里？”他说：“哦，我们没有。”所以，我们明白了，我们查看了，我查看了情报。我明白泰（Tai）很可能不是那20人中的一个，但他仍然是人质。

Ruby Hen: You know, there's the missing holidays, Thanksgiving to Hanukkah to Easter, and just think of a family dinner, holiday dinner with a chair that is empty. You know, Tai going back to the Celtics, now is the beginning of basketball season. We will be sitting on the couch, thinking about and jabbing one another, who has a better chance of winning the division title, and we will play NBA 2K and he will play with the Celtics. I'd play with the Knicks. He would of course beat me because he's much better at 2K than I am, and he's missing.

鲁比·亨：你知道，那些缺失的节日，从感恩节到光明节（Hanukkah），再到复活节，只要想想家庭聚餐、节日晚餐，就有一把空椅子。你知道，泰是凯尔特人队的球迷，现在是篮球赛季的开始。我们会坐在沙发上，互相打趣，讨论谁更有机会赢得赛区冠军，我们会玩NBA 2K（NBA 2K: 一款流行的篮球视频游戏），他会用凯尔特人队，我用尼克斯队。他当然会赢我，因为他玩2K比我好得多，而他现在失踪了。

Ruby Hen: It is just as important to us to get Itai back, and then we'll deal with the two options that we have: either being able to hug him, or it means that one chapter ended and we need to start another chapter of our family. But we need to have that ending of this chapter.

鲁比·亨：对我们来说，让伊泰（Itai）回来同样重要，然后我们将处理我们面临的两种选择：要么能够拥抱他，要么意味着一个篇章的结束，我们需要开启我们家庭的另一个篇章。但我们需要让这一篇章有一个结局。

A citizen: Thank you so much.

一位民众：非常感谢。

凯特·帕利·卡蒂尔：失去与未完的悲伤

Some of the family members at the square have the answers that people like Ruby are dreading. They know that their relatives are dead, but they come here for different reasons. They come to support other people. They come out of a sense of solidarity. They come because they understand what it means to wait for these kinds of answers and to finally get them.

广场上的一些家庭成员已经得到了像鲁比这样的人所恐惧的答案。他们知道亲人已经去世，但他们来到这里的原因不同。他们来支持其他人。他们出于团结感而来。他们来是因为他们理解等待这些答案并最终得到它们意味着什么。

Rachel Abrams: Can you tell me to start just who you are and why you're here tonight?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：你能先告诉我你是谁，以及你今晚为什么会在这里吗？

Kit Pali Katir: Okay. So, my name is Kit Pali Katir. I'm the daughter of Ramy Katir, who was murdered on October 7th in Kibbutz (Kibbutz: 以色列的一种集体社区) Niro. My mother, Khan Katir, was abducted from Kibbutz Niro, and my brother Alad was also kidnapped from Kibbutz Niro. My mom returned after 49 days in captivity in Gaza, and my brother Alad was murdered in captivity, and his body was retrieved to Israel on April 2024.

凯特·帕利·卡蒂尔（Kit Pali Katir）：好的。我叫凯特·帕利·卡蒂尔。我是拉米·卡蒂尔（Ramy Katir）的女儿，他于10月7日在尼罗基布兹遇害。我的母亲，卡恩·卡蒂尔（Khan Katir），从尼罗基布兹被绑架，我的哥哥阿拉德（Alad）也从尼罗基布兹被绑架。我妈妈在加沙被囚禁49天后返回，我的哥哥阿拉德在囚禁中遇害，他的遗体于2024年4月被运回以色列。

Kit Pali Katir: When my mother came back, I remember when she was brought on a journey, and she looked up and she saw me and she saw my sister. And then I could see that she's looking about the missing faces. She couldn't see my father and she couldn't see my brother. And she asked me, "Where are they?" And I have to tell her, like on the first five minutes she's with us, that my father, her husband, was shot to death, and that my brother, for me it was good news, I told her, "Mom, but you know, the good news is that he's kidnapped and he's alive." And it's crazy that even considered to be good news, but for us it was a good news.

凯特·帕利·卡蒂尔：我记得我妈妈回来的时候，她被带上旅程，她抬起头看到了我和我的妹妹。然后我看到她在寻找那些失踪的面孔。她没有看到我的父亲，也没有看到我的哥哥。她问我：“他们去哪儿了？”我不得不在她和我们在一起的头五分钟内告诉她，我的父亲，她的丈夫，被枪杀了，而我的哥哥，对我来说是个好消息，我告诉她：“妈妈，你知道吗，好消息是他被绑架了，他还活着。”这听起来很疯狂，甚至能被认为是好消息，但对我们来说，这确实是个好消息。

Kit Pali Katir: I remember when they told us that he's dead. So my mom, she was in the hospital at this time, and she told the officer that she wants her son, my brother, to be brought to her so she can kiss him goodbye. And then the officer was shocked and he told her, "We can't bring him over. You can't kiss him goodbye because his body wasn't in a state that she could have done that." And it's awful because the sense of closure is not full because we don't get to have this normal phases of grief and goodbye. Meanwhile, Carme's mom was struggling more and more with her health, suffering from ailments related to her captivity. She steadily declined and passed away last year.

凯特·帕利·卡蒂尔：我记得他们告诉我们他去世的时候。当时我妈妈在医院里，她告诉军官，她想让她儿子，也就是我哥哥，被带到她身边，这样她就能吻别他。然后那个军官很震惊，他告诉她：“我们不能把他带过来。你不能吻别他，因为他的身体状况不允许你这样做。”这很糟糕，因为这种结束感并不完整，我们无法经历正常的悲伤和告别阶段。与此同时，卡姆的妈妈的健康状况越来越差，饱受囚禁相关疾病的折磨。她的身体状况持续恶化，去年去世了。

Kit Pali Katir: It's a huge difference between what I've been through with my father or my brother or with her, because with her we have the opportunity and the privilege to say goodbye, to say how much we love her, to hold her hands, for her not to feel alone for a second. And we didn't have that with my brother and we didn't have that with my father. And this makes this feeling of closure very different.

凯特·帕利·卡蒂尔：我父亲、哥哥和她所经历的一切有巨大差异，因为和她在一起，我们有机会和荣幸说再见，告诉她我们有多爱她，握着她的手，让她片刻不感到孤单。而我的哥哥和父亲，我们都没有这样的机会。这使得这种结束感变得非常不同。

Rachel Abrams: The people here, the families, there are so many families who are anticipating having their loved ones returned. What does that feel like as somebody that also was in that position?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：这里的人们，这些家庭，有那么多家庭正期待着他们的亲人归来。作为一个也曾身处那种境地的人，这是一种怎样的感受？

Kit Pali Katir: I'm struggling all the time for 736 days today. I'm fighting for the release of all hostages. This is my main goal in life, and of course I'm so thrilled that it's finally happening. But of course, emotionally, it's so complicated because, you know, tomorrow people are going to hug their loved ones, and I'm not going to have this hug forever.

凯特·帕利·卡蒂尔：我一直都在挣扎，到今天已经736天了。我正在为所有被劫持人质的释放而奋斗。这是我人生的主要目标，当然，我非常激动这一切终于发生了。但当然，情感上这非常复杂，因为你知道，明天人们将拥抱他们的亲人，而我将永远无法得到这个拥抱。

Rachel Abrams: How do you think the country has changed, and how much of that change is permanent and how much will go away when the war is over?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：你认为这个国家发生了怎样的变化？其中有多少是永久性的，有多少会在战争结束后消失？

Kit Pali Katir: I feel that this war has been too much and too long and too devastating, both for Israelis and for Palestinians, for Gazan people. I feel like the loss and the ruins both in Israel and in Gaza, it will take years and decades to rebuild something new. I'm not talking about the houses or the homes or the neighborhoods. I'm talking about the possibility of living one next to each other. And I feel like there is a crisis of trust or of confidence between the Israeli people and its leadership. So I feel that in the end of the war, none of us is feeling more safe, and it's sad to say that.

凯特·帕利·卡蒂尔：我觉得这场战争对以色列人和巴勒斯坦人，对加沙人民来说，都太沉重、太漫长、太具毁灭性了。我觉得以色列和加沙的损失和废墟，需要数年甚至数十年来重建新的东西。我说的不是房屋或社区。我说的是彼此毗邻而居的可能性。而且我觉得以色列人民与他们的领导层之间存在信任或信心的危机。所以我觉得，战争结束后，我们没有人会感到更安全，说出来很令人悲伤。

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：人质回归的社会意义

Coming up next, I speak with my colleague Isabelle Kersner on what the return of the hostages means more broadly for Israeli society and for the end of the war. We'll be right back.

接下来，我将与我的同事伊莎贝尔·克什纳（Isabelle Kersner）探讨人质回归对以色列社会以及战争结束的更广泛意义。我们马上回来。

Rachel Abrams: Isabelle, thanks so much for talking to us. We are speaking at this moment when there are enormous scenes unfolding not just where you and I are in Israel, but also in Gaza where hundreds of thousands of people are going back to their homes and their neighborhoods which have been largely destroyed to try to figure out how to start rebuilding their lives. And international journalists are still waiting for access to Gaza. We're not allowed in there. In the meantime, I wanted to come to Israel where there was this seismic event happening, which is the return of the hostages. So just to start, can you remind us who are the hostages as a whole?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：伊莎贝尔，非常感谢你和我们交谈。我们现在谈论的时刻，不仅你我所在的以色列，加沙地带也正在上演着巨大的场面，那里数十万人正在返回他们大部分已被摧毁的家园和社区，试图找出如何重建生活的方法。国际记者仍在等待进入加沙的权限，我们不被允许进入。与此同时，我想来到以色列，这里正在发生一个划时代的事件，那就是人质的回归。那么，首先，你能提醒我们，人质作为一个整体，他们是谁吗？

Isabel Kersner: Sure, Rachel. So the hostages were taken captive during the Hamas-led attack on Israel on October 7th, 2023. At the time, about 250 people were taken captive and taken back to Gaza. They included many civilians, women, children, grandparents, and some soldiers. In the intervening two years of war, we've had in the past two brief temporary ceasefires where some hostages were exchanged for some Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails, and the women and children for the most part were returned. Some of the younger men who were considered to be in the most vulnerable states physically were returned. And what we're expecting is early Monday morning for the 20 live hostages to all be returned more or less at the same time. They're mainly men, mostly young men, mostly civilians, and a small number of soldiers. And then the remains of 26 more people who were either killed or died in captivity. Some are supposed to also be returned later in the day on Monday, but the authorities have been saying that it will be much harder to locate all the remains. Some might be buried in places that very few people know where they are, and so it could take much longer to return all of them.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：当然，雷切尔。人质是在2023年10月7日哈马斯对以色列发动的袭击中被俘的。当时，大约有250人被俘并被带回加沙。其中包括许多平民、妇女、儿童、祖父母和一些士兵。在过去两年的战争中，我们经历了两次短暂的临时停火，期间一些人质被交换回国，以换取以色列监狱中的一些巴勒斯坦囚犯，大部分妇女和儿童都已返回。一些身体状况被认为最脆弱的年轻男性也已返回。我们预计在周一清晨，20名活着的人质（hostages: 被非法劫持作为谈判筹码的人）将大致同时被释放。他们主要是男性，大多是年轻男性，大部分是平民，还有少数士兵。此外，还有26名在囚禁中被杀或死亡的人的遗体。其中一些也预计在周一晚些时候被送回，但当局表示，要找到所有遗体将困难得多。有些可能埋葬在鲜为人知的地方，因此可能需要更长时间才能全部送回。

Rachel Abrams: Can you remind us, Isabelle, how these hostage returns have worked in the past, just mechanically, and what is different about this time?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：伊莎贝尔，你能提醒我们，过去这些人质的返还机制是怎样的，以及这次有什么不同吗？

Isabel Kersner: Of course. So in the past, what we've seen largely are these ceremonies where Hamas militants would kind of in a show of force build a stage and bring out some of the hostages in small groups surrounded by masked gunmen. Sometimes they'd be made to wave to the crowd or to give little speeches. This time around, we understand that Hamas is supposed to not be holding these ceremonies. So, we might not see very much at the beginning, but the idea is they will be handed over to representatives of the Red Cross (Red Cross: 红十字国际委员会，提供人道援助的国际组织) in Gaza. They will then be transported and handed over to Israeli military and will be brought over the border into an Israeli military base called Rahim, which is in southern Israel. And that's where they usually get their initial checks to see what their condition is and are reunited with close family members.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：当然。过去，我们看到的主要是哈马斯武装分子以武力展示的方式举行仪式，搭建舞台，让一些人质由蒙面枪手包围着，分成小批次出来。有时他们会被要求向人群挥手或发表简短讲话。这次，我们了解到哈马斯将不会举行这些仪式。所以，一开始我们可能不会看到太多，但计划是他们将被移交给加沙地带红十字国际委员会的代表。然后他们将被运送并移交给以色列军方，并被带过边境进入以色列南部一个名为拉希姆（Rahim）的军事基地。在那里，他们通常会接受初步检查以了解他们的状况，并与亲近的家人团聚。

Isabel Kersner: And you know, you ask what's different this time. So much is different this time. I mean, for one thing, these hostages have been in captivity for two years, so nobody really knows what their condition is. We've seen some hostage videos released by Hamas over the months where some have appeared extremely emaciated and skeletal and very, very distressed. And it's very unclear what the condition will be of those coming out alive. And for the Palestinians, too. The Israelis are releasing more than 200 Palestinian prisoners who were convicted of life terms for serious deadly attacks against Israelis, plus almost 2,000, about 1,700 plus detainees from Gaza who were detained by Israeli forces during the war and brought to Israel. So it's a very large landmark occasion on all sides.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：你知道，你问这次有什么不同。这次有太多不同了。我的意思是，首先，这些人质已经被囚禁了两年，所以没有人真正知道他们的状况如何。我们看到哈马斯在过去几个月发布了一些人质视频，其中一些人质看起来极度消瘦、骨瘦如柴，非常痛苦。所以，那些活着出来的人的状况会怎样，目前非常不清楚。对于巴勒斯坦人也是如此。以色列将释放200多名巴勒斯坦囚犯，他们因对以色列人发动严重的致命袭击而被判处无期徒刑，此外还有近2000名，大约1700多名来自加沙的被拘留者，他们是在战争期间被以色列军队拘留并带到以色列的。因此，这对各方来说都是一个非常重大的里程碑式事件。

Rachel Abrams: One of our producers, Claire Tennis Getter and I spent last night, Saturday night, at Hostage Square, where there have been weekly rallies in support of bringing the hostages home since the beginning of the war. And last night was one of, if not the biggest crowd that has ever been there, according to a bunch of different reports. Can you talk about the significance of the hostages to the war and to Israeli society and how that's changed since the start of all of this?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：我们的一位制作人克莱尔·坦尼斯·盖特（Claire Tennis Getter）和我昨晚，也就是周六晚上，在人质广场度过，那里自战争开始以来每周都会举行集会，支持人质回家。根据多份不同的报道，昨晚是那里有史以来规模最大的集会之一。你能谈谈人质对这场战争和以色列社会的意义吗？以及自这一切开始以来，这种意义是如何变化的？

Isabel Kersner: Well, there's an ethos in Israel that's largely been nurtured through the Israeli military, which is a conscription army. So, you know, most people in Israel, their children or their siblings, somebody they know, their neighbors will be serving or will have been serving in the military. And the ethos because it's a so-called people's army particularly has been that you never leave soldiers behind in the field. And there's been a feeling that's grown over the two years as these captives have languished longer and longer that the Israeli government had essentially abandoned these people and left them in the field.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：嗯，以色列有一种精神（ethos: 指一个民族、团体或时代的特征、精神或价值观），这种精神主要通过以色列军队培养起来，它是一支征兵制军队。所以，你知道，以色列的大多数人，他们的孩子、兄弟姐妹、认识的人、邻居都会服役或曾经服役。而这种精神，因为它是一支所谓的“人民军队”，尤其强调绝不将士兵留在战场上。在这些人质被长期困顿的两年里，一种情绪逐渐滋长，那就是以色列政府基本上放弃了这些人，把他们留在了战场上。

Isabel Kersner: So the square has become a kind of fulcrum of anger and frustration as successive rounds of hostage talks collapsed and ceasefires collapsed and this war seemed to be turning into a forever war. And now of course, you know, you experienced a complete flip and switch in the atmosphere to actually seeing some light at the end of this and seeing the hostages about to come back and seeing this war end, which a majority of Israelis has been calling for. I mean, in every single opinion poll for months and months and months, you've had a majority cutting across political lines saying that they favored prioritizing a hostage deal and a return of the hostages over continuing the war.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：因此，随着一轮又一轮的人质谈判和停火协议破裂，这场战争似乎正在变成一场永无止境的战争，这个广场已经成为愤怒和沮丧的焦点。现在当然，你知道，你经历了气氛的彻底转变，看到了隧道尽头的光明，看到了人质即将归来，看到了这场战争的结束，而这正是大多数以色列人一直呼吁的。我的意思是，在过去好几个月的每一次民意调查中，跨越政治界限的大多数人都表示，他们倾向于优先考虑人质协议和人质回归，而不是继续战争。

Rachel Abrams: I was really struck by how many people were carrying signs saying, "Thank you, Mr. President," with pictures of President Trump on them. There was one guy actually dressed as President Trump holding a sign that said "Nobel Peace Prize," like indicating he should get it, which obviously a lot of people have talked about how he wants to get the Nobel Peace Prize. And in the speeches that we heard, particularly in Steve Whit's speech, that's the Middle East envoy for the Trump administration. Every time Whitco mentioned Trump, the crowd would go nuts and cheer and clap. And every time Witoff mentioned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, people would boo. And I wonder what you make of that.

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：我真的被那些举着写有“谢谢你，总统先生”标语、上面印有特朗普总统照片的人数之多所震撼。有一个人甚至打扮成特朗普总统，举着写有“诺贝尔和平奖”的标语，暗示他应该获得这个奖项，显然很多人都谈论过他想获得诺贝尔和平奖。在我们听到的演讲中，特别是特朗普政府的中东特使史蒂夫·惠特（Steve Whit）的演讲中，每次惠特提到特朗普，人群都会疯狂欢呼鼓掌。而每次惠特提到总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡（Benjamin Netanyahu），人们就会发出嘘声。我想知道你对此有何看法。

Isabel Kersner: Yeah, that was quite stunning to see actually, Rachel. I mean, the cheer that went up as Witoff and Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump walked through the crowd and took the podium, and the electrifying atmosphere and yes, this massive gratitude and appreciation of the Trump administration's role and President Trump personally in getting this done. And then as you mentioned, this extended, prolonged booing that accompanied every time Wickoff mentioned Netanyahu's name, there's a lot of anger still against the government for Netanyahu's refusal to take responsibility personally for the failures, the intelligence failures, the policy failures that occurred on his watch. And you know, I think that's what you were seeing last night in the square. And there was immediately afterward a lot of discussion on the panel shows on TV about whether it was appropriate or not, but it was just a very genuine, authentic, spontaneous response and nobody had planned it or rehearsed it. And I think it was just, you know, very reflective of how people have felt here.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：是的，雷切尔，那确实令人相当震惊。我的意思是，当惠特科、贾里德·库什纳（Jared Kushner）和伊万卡·特朗普（Ivanka Trump）穿过人群走上讲台时，爆发出的欢呼声，那种激动人心的气氛，以及对特朗普政府的作用和特朗普总统本人促成此事所表达的巨大感激和赞赏。然后就像你提到的，每次惠特科提到内塔尼亚胡的名字时，都伴随着长时间的嘘声，这表明人们对政府仍然非常愤怒，因为内塔尼亚胡拒绝亲自为在他任期内发生的失败、情报失误和政策失误承担责任。我想，这就是你昨晚在广场上看到的情景。事后电视讨论节目立即就此展开了许多讨论，关于这是否合适，但这只是一种非常真诚、真实、自发的反应，没有人策划或排练。我认为这只是非常真实地反映了这里人们的感受。

Rachel Abrams: What are we watching for now? What are people expecting to happen next?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：我们现在在关注什么？人们期待接下来会发生什么？

Isabel Kersner: Yeah, that's the golden question. Nobody really knows this deal. It was very vague. Other than the first phase of it, which is the hostage for Palestinian prisoner exchange and an increase in aid going into the Gaza Strip as well as an Israeli pullback. There's already been an initial pullback of forces to a defense line within the Gaza Strip. Beyond that, there are a lot of open questions which do raise concerns about the fragility of such a deal. And I think that's why we're also seeing on Monday after President Trump makes this sort of lightning four-hour visit to Israel, he's then going on to Charal Shik in Egypt for what he's calling a peace summit led by himself and the president of Egypt where they've invited world leaders and the Arab partners to sort of buttress and support this deal. And I think, you know, the idea is just to create as strong a coalition as possible and as broad as possible of countries who are just going to try and make sure that this holds.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：是的，这是个关键问题。没有人真正了解这项协议。它非常模糊。除了第一阶段，也就是人质换巴勒斯坦囚犯，以及增加进入加沙地带的援助，还有以色列的撤兵。目前已经有初步的部队撤回到加沙地带内的一条防线。除此之外，还有许多悬而未决的问题，这确实引发了对这项协议脆弱性的担忧。我想这就是为什么我们还会看到，周一在特朗普总统对以色列进行这种闪电般的四小时访问之后，他将前往埃及的沙姆沙伊赫（Sharm El Sheikh），参加他所称的由他本人和埃及总统领导的和平峰会，他们邀请了世界各国领导人和阿拉伯伙伴来支持和巩固这项协议。我认为，其目的就是建立一个尽可能强大和广泛的国家联盟，以确保这项协议能够维持下去。

Isabel Kersner: I mean, whatever happens next, clearly people in Israel at least are celebrating the end of the war. It feels to them like we have reached the end of the war with this first phase.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：我的意思是，无论接下来发生什么，至少以色列人民显然正在庆祝战争的结束。对他们来说，感觉我们已经随着第一阶段的结束而走到了战争的终点。

Rachel Abrams: Does that seem fair to you?

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：你觉得这公平吗？

Isabel Kersner: Yes. I think Israelis for the large part are relieved after two years. There's little appetite in Israel to continue fighting. It's a very Sisyphian task (Sisyphian task: 西西弗斯式的任务，指永无止境且徒劳无功的任务) really. You're in an insurgency situation and it just seemed to be a kind of stalemate. But does it mean peace? Does it mean the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been resolved? Absolutely not. I mean, the fundamental issues remain, but it certainly brings this two-year chapter to some kind of close, however unclear the future looks.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：是的。我认为大多数以色列人在两年后都松了一口气。以色列继续战斗的意愿很低。这真是一个西西弗斯式的任务。你正处于叛乱局势中，这似乎只是一种僵局。但这是否意味着和平？这是否意味着巴以冲突已经解决？绝对不是。我的意思是，根本问题依然存在，但这无疑为这个两年的篇章画上了一个句号，尽管未来看起来仍不明朗。

Rachel Abrams: Isabelle, thank you so much.

雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯：伊莎贝尔，非常感谢。

Isabel Kersner: Thank you.

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：谢谢。

其他新闻与制作团队

Here's what else you need to know today. Over the weekend, President Trump said that he would pay members of the military during the government shutdown, tapping into about $8 billion of Pentagon (Pentagon: 美国国防部的所在地) funds. It would cover the next pay period for more than a million active duty service members. But it's not clear how long the administration could pay troops if Congress and the White House can't reach a spending deal. Meanwhile, the Smithsonian Institution (Smithsonian Institution: 美国的一系列博物馆和研究中心) said on Sunday that the shutdown has forced it to close its 21 museums and the National Zoo.

以下是今天你需要知道的其他消息。上周末，特朗普总统表示，在政府停摆期间，他将动用约80亿美元的五角大楼资金支付军人薪水。这将覆盖超过一百万名现役军人的下一个发薪期。但如果国会和白宫无法达成支出协议，政府能向军队支付多久的薪水尚不清楚。与此同时，史密森尼学会周日表示，政府停摆已迫使其关闭其21个博物馆和国家动物园。

Today's episode was produced by Claire Tennis, Rob Zipco, and Michael Simon Johnson. It was edited by Patricia Willins and Ben Calhoun. Contains music by Rowan Nisto, Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Leah Shaw Damaron, and Alicia Beub, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Special thanks to Gabby Soberman and Aaron Boxerman. That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.

今天的节目由克莱尔·坦尼斯、罗布·齐普科（Rob Zipco）和迈克尔·西蒙·约翰逊（Michael Simon Johnson）制作。由帕特里夏·威林斯（Patricia Willins）和本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun）编辑。音乐由罗恩·尼斯特（Rowan Nisto）、丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）、玛丽安·洛扎诺（Marian Lozano）、利亚·肖·达马龙（Leah Shaw Damaron）和艾丽西亚·比尤布（Alicia Beub）提供，由艾丽莎·莫克斯利（Alyssa Moxley）进行音效工程。特别感谢加比·索伯曼（Gabby Soberman）和亚伦·博克斯曼（Aaron Boxerman）。“The Daily”节目到此结束。我是雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯。明天见。