The government says having police officers in schools would protect students and build trust. But others say the school resource officer program wouldn't address the root cause of violence and would make some students feel unsafe. So what does the data tell us?

I got insight into the program's pros and cons from Leeann Cole school trustee for Mississauga Wards one and seven, and David Bosveld, co-founder of Peel Black Collective and Black Education Fund and powers in a Human Rights Educator. David, Leanne, welcome to the program. How are you guys doing?

>> Great. Thanks.

>> Thank you. I'm doing well.

>> All right. We're going to start off with Bill 33 right into it, the Ontario government's Bill 33, the Supporting Children and Students Act, calls on school boards to implement School Resource Officer SRO programs, where such programs are available. Now, Leanne, you introduced a motion at a recent Peel District School Board meeting regarding the program. What did your motion set out to do?

>> So the motion is to invite the police, meaning Peel Regional Police and the OPP, to come to the school board and have a discussion with staff as to how it might look like if this program is reintroduced.

>> All right. I should mention you were speaking today.

>> I am not speaking on behalf of the board today. I'm speaking from what I feel personally.

>> All right, David, take us back a little bit. 2017. That is when the SRO program ended. 2020, 2020. Sorry, what was the SRO program and why did it end in 2020?

>> Well, it was in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, and I think there was a real impetus to look at structures and systems, and particularly how they affect marginalised groups, black people, Indigenous folks. And the Peel police entered a conversation with the community where feedback was given and taken. And, you know, we learned that the Peel Regional Police, some of their officers were using the program to hone their investigative skills and for advancement in their jobs. And we heard the story of the 6-year-old girl who was handcuffed and shackled. And ultimately, you know, we had this series of very difficult discussions. And the Peel police determined on their own to end the program. And the political environment has subsequently changed a little bit. It's five years later. People aren't thinking so much about, you know, the so-called Wokeism. And here we are in an environment where people are, you know, actively wishing to have police officers back in schools.

>> In terms of the programs length, how long did it actually last for before all of that feedback?

>> I don't know specifically how long it was there, but it was there long enough to create significant harm.

>> All right. I should mention that we did reach out for a statement from the Ministry of Education. We did not hear back in time for the taping. Leanne help us understand, how the SRO program is supposed to work.

>> I really can't speak to how it was supposed to work before I was a trustee, but from what I know, they were supposed to be there as a support for students, to build relationships with students. They weren't there specifically to get students in trouble or to arrest them or or anything like that. It was mainly just to create a relationship with students and in a supportive way.

>> So help us understand. So from a day to day, what would that look like? with a police officer in the classroom,

>> What would it look like without them?

>> With them?

>> I don't necessarily know if they were in the classrooms. I think they could have been anywhere on on school property. but, you know, this is why I'm bringing this motion forward now, is to see what that might look like going forward, because we do recognize that it wasn't wasn't perfect, but thorough mistakes.

>> All right. I want to show a graphic. This is data compiled by Global News in late August showing the number of violent incidences in Ontario schools. As you can see, the numbers creep up just before the pandemic, a drop to around 1000 in the middle of the pandemic when schools were closed and then rise to over 4000 after the school closures ended. David, is there a connection between the end of the SRO program and the rise of violence in schools?

>> Well, I don't think so. And like Trustee Cole said, right, the SRO program is not designed to be an enforcement program, but a relationship-building program. So the folks that are, you know, saying, hey, our schools are unsafe, bring back police officers, and then they'll be safe. I think our contorting right what the purpose of those programs was building relationships is not arresting and handcuffing and dealing with discipline that could be handled by school staff and principals. So I think, you know, the previous design of the program, although it was intended to be, you know, relationship building morphed into, you know, the principal could call on the police officer to address certain issues. And the police officers were, you know, willingly doing that. And so it ended up with the criminalisation of kids. And when we look at Peel Regional Police, specifically where I'm from in Brampton, what we find is in the community and based on the data that they present annually around use of force, black people represent 10% of the community, but 30% of the use-of-force incidents. So if you were to introduce police officers in schools, I don't think it's a difficult assumption to assume that if the schools had 10% black student population, that they could be receiving 30% of negative police interactions in whatever form those existed. And so I think, you know, also, Trustee Cole makes a good point that there needs to be supports in schools. And the question is what are those supports more guidance counsellors, perhaps smaller class sizes, child and youth workers, social workers, mental health professionals which are trained professionals to deal with children. Right. And police are trained professionals to deal with crime. And so we're introducing, you know, potentially a support into schools that, you know, perhaps goes a bit too far.

>> I want to get your take on that. You know, David makes a--

>> I completely agree. And I think, you know, and I'm hoping this is if my motion is passed by other trustees, that when we do have those discussions with the police and the board, I'm hoping their report can bring back, you know, what are we going to do different next time? How are we going to make sure that we're available for kids and not only the kids, but the staff, so that they feel a sense of safety as well? Parents. Right. I think it's everybody. And we have to make sure that it's done in a way that, you know, they're not there to arrest or lay charges because we don't want the kids thinking that they're in trouble and they're walking into, you know, that feeling every day. We want them to feel safe. That's what our whole motto is safe and caring schools.

>> In terms of the graph that we saw there, you mentioned a little bit a connection between the end of the program and what we've seen as someone who's, you know, been around schools and. Students coming out of the pandemic, things are different. I think we can we can look at sort of, you know, what those those years have done. And anecdotally, we can we can see what students are saying and teachers are saying. But is there a connection between those two?

>> I don't know, and I don't know if we've had enough time to really look at the data, you know, 2020, 2021, 2022 was just a couple of years ago. So and is it only the pandemic? I think there's a lot of factors here that we have to consider. And I think if we do have the program come back, it has to be somehow measurable so that we can see what the actual issues are and why they're present now. So I really can't speak to that. I think we still need to see what the data shows for 2024 or 2025 and make a determination from there.

>> All right. I want to read the Ontario Human Rights Commission's submission on Bill 33. Let's have a read there. By mandating the implementation of SRO programs, Bill 33 disempowers school boards and prevents them from filling their responsibility to protect the rights of all students under the Ontario Human Rights Code. This is particularly concerning in jurisdictions including Peel and Toronto, where black students and communities have routinely communicated the systemic harms associated with SRO programs. So pretty much what you had highlighted, David, does this bill ignore the concerns of racialized communities about systemic discrimination?

>> Well, 100%. Right. And it's being rushed through the legislature. These discussions happened. They're ongoing discussions. Once the removal of the SRO program happened, by the way, that was the Peel police that made that decision. It wasn't the school board, the community members, you know, supported that decision. The Peel police then went further and partnered with the OHRC on what they called their Human Rights Project. And within that project item or recommendation 12 talks very specifically about the importance of ending the SRO programs in police programming in schools. And they have developed a protocol. Right. So for the average member of the public that thinks, hey, police aren't allowed in schools at all, it's unsafe, kids are fighting and violence is happening, vaping all of these things. There's a protocol that exists, and I think it would be fair to measure that existing protocol and determine whether it's working optimally or whether it needs to be adjusted. But police are invited into schools under specific circumstances. Safety issues, crimes and other issues that it's determined that the principals, the superintendents and the school staff can address. Right. Often these are kids. They're 12 year olds, 15 year olds, 10 year olds, 6 year olds.

>> Cops be a deterrent.

>> You know? I mean, cops might be a deterrent to something, but they may create fear. When you think of, you know, neurodivergent students, black and indigenous students, newcomers that maybe are undocumented, like going to your school and seeing a cop could, you know, really be traumatizing for people. Also, people who have had negative interactions with police. So I think and I'll just reiterate, in the school environment, we should be pressing for resources and funding for things that support students social emotional well-being. And that would be the things I listed before, right? More guidance counsellors, smaller class sizes, extra supports as child and youth workers. Those are the professionals that can really help deal with behavioural issues. And, you know, the introduction of SRO programs, it's always stated as, oh, it's just to build relationships, but it's always also, you know, under the guise of schools are unsafe. And if a cops there, you know, maybe they can address some of these issues, you know, and that will end up, we know, disproportionately criminalizing students from marginalised groups.

>> All right. With that, I want to get a better understanding of what you're hearing from parents. Are they asking for police to be on school grounds through this program?

>> I think from what I know, the majority of them are, we actually went out into the community, myself and a few other trustees. It was after an incident had occurred in Caledon whereby a parent was very upset about what happened to their child, and so we took a petition in the community and we just chose random areas in Mississauga, Brampton and Caledon. We went door to door and we spoke to parents, and sometimes if their kids were home, the kids too. And we asked them, we asked them, is this something that you would support if the school board could facilitate a conversation with the police about what this might look like going forward? And from the signatures that I got, which is roughly about 100, I would say, I think I had one person say no. So, you know, but again, to your point, I agree with you at the same time, because it has to be a program that works. It has to be measurable. And I know you said that we're keyword, you know, we have to be able to measure this. So what are we doing right? And what are we doing wrong. And if it does come back, and this is why I've put this motion forward to discuss this with staff and the police, what is it going to look like? How are we going to measure this? What? Maybe we just start with a couple schools at first. Maybe the officers not in uniform, maybe they're plainclothes, I don't know, but that's why I put this motion forward to see what it might look like. Because there is a sense of fear right now. Right? So and it's hard to look at the broader picture and decide, like, who do we listen to this group, this group. So, you know, we have to work with everybody to make sure that it's done right.

>> All right. I should mention, you know, 100 signatures is not a it's not a huge number. But I do want to ask David, if a majority of students, parents and teachers did want the program back, would you support it.

>> If they did want the program back? No. Absolutely not. So, and the reason is very simple. If you go out into the community with an equity lens and keeping in mind the history and the context of the Peel District School Board that was placed under supervision because of an unwillingness and inability to address specifically anti-Black racism and other forms of discrimination. That was in 2020 as well. And the commitment and the directives from the Ministry of Education were all around equity and listening to marginalised voices of people from marginalised communities. And it's those voices that are going to experience harm, and policing creates harm in those communities in every example. Right. So we couldn't possibly be naive enough to think that in a school environment, policing programs would, you know, not harm black students and other marginalised students. And I think the idea of majorities, you know, speaking out and saying, yeah, we want police like you would have to give some education to folks and explain what the history is, what the current state is, why we got to where we got, what the safety issues are, what the other possible solutions for. You know, if there are safety issues. Your graph demonstrated that perhaps there's more violent incidents in schools. So I would suggest let's look at the root causes of these violent, you know, these occurrences of violence. And let's really think and be intentional about how do we resolve that. Because putting an SRO and building relationships with police officers does not address why students are vaping, why students are fighting, why students are skipping class, why, you know, certain groups of students perhaps are not as connected to their educational environment in healthy ways. And, you know, that's the support that they need. And I'll say it, you know, a thousand times police officers are not trained to be child and youth workers and introducing them to the school. The cost, right. Their budgets are ballooning. They're saying that they don't have the resources to deal with car theft and crime in the community, which they also say is on the rise. And they're going to literally embed a police officer, you know, in multiple schools across the province of Ontario. I don't think it makes sense. I think we should have a constructive conversation about what type of supports and resources the province can add to create real safety in schools for everybody.

>> All right. So Bill 33 went for a final vote today. Leanne, I want to better understand you in terms of a timeline. When do you expect the SRO program to be implemented in Peel?

>> I wish I could answer that, and honestly, I have no idea. I haven't been told anything and I don't have any guess. But I do agree with what you said. It would be great if we could have more social workers and support workers in the school when it comes. You're right, it comes down to funding, and for us to have the police back, that's at no cost to the board. But you made an interesting point that they're not trained in child and youth worker type work. And maybe that's something that we could look at that the police get that kind of training.

>> Yeah, I think so. But I think that, you know, assuming that a police officer who's been hired to be a police officer has been put through, you know, use of force training, how to arrest people, how to investigate crimes, that is their core function. And then layering on top of that and saying, now you're going to become, you know, the person that guides children into better decisions or builds relationships with children or, you know, disrupts problems within the school. I think we're missing the point that there are people who are professional at this who went to school to be to work with children and to help and support them. And those are the people that we need in the schools.

>> David, you get the last word on this. if you could, how do you change the government's position on this?

>> Well, there's been a ton of advocacy. you know, we're not in a political environment that is the same as we were in 2020, but in 2020, we saw, you know, boards played the particularly appeal board placed under supervision directives issued, by the Minister of Education to, you know, begin to address the systemic anti-Black racism that existed, and continues to exist. And so, you know, it's advocacy, it's groups like policing free schools, Boys and Powers, Peel Black Collective. There's a whole bunch of groups out there that are educating and mobilizing community members to, you know, really understand this issue because without understanding the issue, I think, you know, in fairness to the folks that say yes to, you know, police back in schools, you know, they want their kids to be safe. And this is what's being proposed to keep them safe and nothing else. So let's have a broader discussion about what, you know, long term, going to create safety in schools for children and for staff, for everybody.

>> All right. We will leave it there. Leanne, David, thank you so much for your insights. I'm sure this will be a conversation that we will be following closely. So really appreciate your time.

>> Thank you for having us.

>> Thank you.