边境沙皇的现金疑云

Natalie Kitroof: From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroof. 我是《纽约时报》的娜塔莉·基特鲁夫。

Natalie Kitroof: This is the daily. 这里是《每日》。

Natalie Kitroof: The White House borders our Tom Homeman was recorded on an FBI surveillance tape in September 2024 accepting $50,000 in cash. 白宫边境沙皇 (Border Czar: 负责边境安全和移民政策的高级官员) 汤姆·霍曼于2024年9月被联邦调查局 (FBI: Federal Bureau of Investigation，美国的主要联邦执法机构) 监控录像记录下收受5万美元现金。

Natalie Kitroof: Did he keep that money or give it back? 他是否保留了这笔钱，还是将其退回了？

Natalie Kitroof: For the past few weeks, Trump officials have been asked repeatedly about an undercover FBI investigation of Bordersar Tom H. Home. Homeman, 在过去几周里，特朗普政府官员被反复问及边境沙皇汤姆·霍曼的联邦调查局卧底调查。

Natalie Kitroof: what became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI delivered to Mr. Homeman? 联邦调查局交给霍曼先生的5万美元现金，后来怎么样了？

Natalie Kitroof: And consistently, they've sidestepped, 他们一直都在回避这个问题，

Natalie Kitroof: did he accept that $50,000 or not, 他是否收受了那5万美元？

Natalie Kitroof: George, I don't know what you're talking about. 乔治，我不知道你在说什么。

Natalie Kitroof: Did he accept $50,000 for what? 他收5万美元干什么？

Natalie Kitroof: Or refuse to answer key questions. 或者拒绝回答关键问题。

Natalie Kitroof: Did the FBI get it back? 联邦调查局拿回去了吗？

Natalie Kitroof: Senator White House, you're welcome to talk to the FBI about whether one of Trump's top immigration officials brazenly broke the law and what's being done about it. 参议员，白宫，欢迎你们与联邦调查局谈谈特朗普手下的一位高级移民官员是否公然违法以及对此采取了什么措施。

Natalie Kitroof: The White House and the president stand by Tom H. Homeman 100% because he did absolutely nothing wrong and he is a 白宫和总统百分之百支持汤姆·霍曼，因为他绝对没有做错任何事，他是一个……

Natalie Kitroof: Today, my colleague Devlin Barrett on the story behind those questions and why the Tom Hman scandal hasn't faded away. 今天，我的同事德夫林·巴雷特将讲述这些问题背后的故事，以及为什么汤姆·霍曼的丑闻没有消退。

Natalie Kitroof: It's Wednesday, October 15th. 今天是10月15日，星期三。

Natalie Kitroof: Develin, I've been watching this story of these allegations surrounding Tom H. Home. Homeman unfold over the past several weeks. 德夫林，在过去几周里，我一直在关注围绕汤姆·霍曼的这些指控。

Natalie Kitroof: And as I've watched, I keep thinking about this interview I did with Holman on the show in June. 在关注的过程中，我一直在回想我6月份在节目中对霍曼的采访。

Natalie Kitroof: One thing that really stuck with me from that interview was just how uncompromising Holman was in the way he presented his view of the law and what should happen to people who break it, that they should be punished. 那次采访中有一件事让我印象深刻，那就是霍曼在阐述他对法律的看法以及对违法者的处理方式时，是多么的毫不妥协，他认为违法者应该受到惩罚。

Natalie Kitroof: And I want to just play you a little bit of tape about how he represented himself and that mission. 我想给你播放一小段录音，听听他是如何描述自己和这项使命的。

Natalie Kitroof: We're a nation from laws, right? 我们是一个法治国家，对吧？

Natalie Kitroof: We got to enforce laws. 我们必须执法。

Natalie Kitroof: Entering this country league is a crime. 非法进入这个国家是犯罪。

Natalie Kitroof: We don't pick and choose what we enforce. 我们不会挑挑拣拣地执法。

Natalie Kitroof: We're here to enforce the law. 我们在这里是为了执行法律。

Natalie Kitroof: And then recently we got some new information about H Homeman. 然后最近我们得到了一些关于霍曼的新信息。

Natalie Kitroof: Tell us when you first learned about this story. 告诉我们你第一次听说这个故事是什么时候。

记者追踪“现金袋”线索

Devlin Barrett: So I cover the Justice Department and the FBI and months ago I had started hearing rumblings that there had been some kind of bribery investigation related to Tom Hman. 德夫林·巴雷特：我负责报道司法部 (DOJ: Department of Justice，美国政府的法律事务部门) 和联邦调查局，几个月前，我开始听到一些传闻，说有一项与汤姆·霍曼有关的贿赂调查。

Devlin Barrett: But I couldn't quite figure out what it was about or where it was. 但我一直搞不清楚这到底是怎么回事，也找不到线索。

Devlin Barrett: And for a while I I it just was a puzzle I couldn't solve. 有一段时间，这对我来说简直是个无法解开的谜团。

Natalie Kitroof: You had a lot of other stories you were covering. 你当时还有很多其他新闻要报道。

Devlin Barrett: It's pretty busy at the DOJ and the FBI most days. 司法部和联邦调查局大多数时候都非常繁忙。

Devlin Barrett: Then sometime in September, I got a little more information where someone knew some of the answers to these questions and said, you know, oh, you mean the case with a bag of cash? 然后在9月的某个时候，我得到了更多信息，有人知道这些问题的一些答案，并说：“哦，你是指那个有现金袋的案子吗？”

Natalie Kitroof: Whoa. 哇。

Natalie Kitroof: Bag of cash. 现金袋。

Natalie Kitroof: It's a that's a pretty big tip. 这是一个相当重要的线索。

Devlin Barrett: Well, right. 嗯，没错。

Devlin Barrett: That's not, you know, what you would think of as like, let's call it regular business practice, right? 那可不是你所认为的，我们姑且称之为正常的商业惯例，对吧？

Devlin Barrett: It's almost the stereotypical way that people think of corruption cases. 这几乎是人们对腐败案件的刻板印象。

Natalie Kitroof: Yeah. 是啊。

Devlin Barrett: So, from that point, I started putting more pieces together and figuring more things out. 所以，从那时起，我开始把更多的碎片拼凑起来，弄清楚更多的事情。

Devlin Barrett: I wasn't the only reporter chasing this. 我不是唯一一个追查此事的记者。

Devlin Barrett: MSNBC also figured it out. MSNBC也发现了。

Devlin Barrett: And so what I eventually came to understand was that there had been beginning really in 2023, but stretching all the way into this year, a really fascinating investigation that came to include Tom Hman. 因此，我最终了解到的是，从2023年开始，一直持续到今年，有一项非常引人入胜的调查，最终将汤姆·霍曼牵涉其中。

Devlin Barrett: As it's been described to me by sources, if you go back to the spring of 2023, the FBI in Texas was conducting an undercover investigation related to a particular businessman. 据消息人士向我描述，回到2023年春天，联邦调查局在德克萨斯州正在对一位特定的商人进行卧底调查。

Devlin Barrett: And the investigation, my sources were adamant, was not looking at Tom Hman at all. 我的消息来源坚称，这项调查根本没有针对汤姆·霍曼。

Devlin Barrett: But in the course of that investigation, that businessman told the undercover agents that if those agents who were posing as businessmen looking for government contracts, if they were willing to pay Tom Holman a million dollars, he could steer government contracts to them. 但在这项调查过程中，那位商人告诉卧底探员，如果这些冒充商人寻求政府合同的探员愿意支付汤姆·霍曼100万美元，他就能为他们争取到政府合同。

霍曼案的意外牵连

Natalie Kitroof: So these agents weren't initially fishing for anything related to Tom Holman. 所以这些探员最初并没有针对汤姆·霍曼进行任何调查。

Natalie Kitroof: They weren't looking at him at that time. 他们当时并没有关注他。

Devlin Barrett: My sources are adamant that no one had asked about Tom Holman. 我的消息来源坚称，没有人主动询问汤姆·霍曼。

Devlin Barrett: that was brought up unprompted and Tom Hman just sort of wanders into the picture, wanders into the frame of what the FBI agents are already doing. 这个名字是意外被提及的，汤姆·霍曼就这样“闯入”了联邦调查局探员正在进行的调查视野。

Natalie Kitroof: Wow. 哇。

Natalie Kitroof: Just to put us in time here, we're in 2023. 为了理清时间线，我们现在是2023年。

Natalie Kitroof: We know Tom Holman as the former ICE director in the first Trump administration, this longtime border official. 我们知道汤姆·霍曼是特朗普第一届政府时期的前移民和海关执法局 (ICE: Immigration and Customs Enforcement，美国国土安全部下属的执法机构，主要负责移民执法) 局长，一位资深的边境官员。

Natalie Kitroof: He actually served in the Obama administration, but he's not in government at this point. 他实际上在奥巴马政府时期也任职过，但目前他不在政府任职。

Natalie Kitroof: Right. 对吧。

Devlin Barrett: Right. 是的。

Devlin Barrett: He's just a private citizen and he runs a consulting business for companies that are seeking contracts. 他只是一名普通公民，经营一家为寻求合同的公司提供咨询服务的企业。

Devlin Barrett: So, it's not completely out of the blue that he would have some interest in government contracts. 所以，他对政府合同感兴趣并非完全出人意料。

Devlin Barrett: But again, he's not in government at that time. 但再说一遍，他当时并不在政府任职。

Devlin Barrett: And he's he's known mostly as a former Trump official who is what they sometimes call a campaign surrogate. 他主要被视为一名前特朗普政府官员，有时也被称为竞选代理人 (Campaign Surrogate: 代表政治竞选活动公开发言或助选的人)。

Devlin Barrett: He often would appear, you know, speaking publicly in support of another Trump administration. 他经常公开露面，支持特朗普政府再次执政。

Devlin Barrett: And there's a lot of general expectation that if Trump wins reelection, Homeman will rejoin the government. 人们普遍预计，如果特朗普赢得连任，霍曼将重返政府。

Devlin Barrett: And in November of 2023, he out and out says it. 而在2023年11月，他直截了当地说了出来。

Devlin Barrett: He says, you know, I promise President Trump that if he goes back, I go back. 他说：“你知道，我向特朗普总统承诺，如果他回去，我也会回去。”

Devlin Barrett: And then he added to that and I'm going to run the biggest deportation operation this country's ever seen. 然后他补充道：“我将主导这个国家有史以来最大规模的遣返行动。”

Natalie Kitroof: Right? 对吧？

Natalie Kitroof: He's he's widely seen as a likely member of a future Trump administration. 他被广泛视为未来特朗普政府的可能成员。

Natalie Kitroof: He's saying he's going to be there and there's this sense that a lot of money is going to be thrown at the area that he's going to be involved in in in border enforcement. 他说他将身居其位，而且有一种感觉，他将参与的边境执法领域会投入大量资金。

Devlin Barrett: Well, right, that that whole time period, the Trump campaign is talking about deporting millions of people. 嗯，没错，在那个时期，特朗普的竞选团队一直在谈论遣返数百万人。

Devlin Barrett: It is a very expensive prospect. 这是一个非常昂贵的计划。

Devlin Barrett: So, there's a natural expectation that there will be significant government contracts related to both border security work and deportation work. 因此，自然会预期将有大量的政府合同与边境安全工作和遣返工作有关。

Natalie Kitroof: Okay, so back to the investigation. 好的，回到调查。

Natalie Kitroof: What happens next? 接下来发生了什么？

5万美元现金的交接

Devlin Barrett: So once that businessman just sort of proposes this notion that the undercover agents could pay Tom Hman to get government contracts, a series of conversations follow. 德夫林·巴雷特：所以一旦那位商人提出卧底探员可以付钱给汤姆·霍曼以获取政府合同的想法，一系列的对话随之展开。

Devlin Barrett: This investigation goes on for a long time, but eventually a meeting is set up for September 20th, 2024. 这项调查持续了很长时间，但最终定于2024年9月20日举行一次会议。

Devlin Barrett: And at that meeting, my sources tell me the undercover agents bring $50,000 in cash and that cash is put in a takeout food bag, a bag from the chain Cava. 消息人士告诉我，在那次会议上，卧底探员带来了5万美元现金，这些现金被放在一个外卖食品袋里，一个来自Cava连锁店的袋子。

Devlin Barrett: So what has been described to me is at that meeting, Homeman both accepts the cash and seems to convey that he's willing to help them get contracts in the future. 所以据我所知，在那次会议上，霍曼既接受了现金，也似乎表示他愿意将来帮助他们获得合同。

Natalie Kitroof: Do we know exactly what he says, Devlin? 德夫林，我们知道他具体说了什么吗？

Natalie Kitroof: Do we have any specific information about that? 我们有这方面的具体信息吗？

Devlin Barrett: We don't know exactly what he says, and that's obviously a big question in this whole process, but we do know that the FBI agents made an audio recording of the meeting. 德夫林·巴雷特：我们不知道他具体说了什么，这显然是整个过程中一个大问题，但我们确实知道联邦调查局探员对会议进行了录音。

Devlin Barrett: So, somewhere in government files, there exists, I am told, an audio recording of this discussion. 所以，我被告知，政府文件中某处存在这次讨论的录音。

Devlin Barrett: And what's been described to me is that H Homeman accepts the cash and leaves. 据我所描述，霍曼接受了现金并离开了。

Devlin Barrett: And that's a great start to an investigation. 这对一项调查来说是一个很好的开始。

Devlin Barrett: You've got a lot to work with there, right? 你有很多可以利用的东西，对吧？

Devlin Barrett: Because the person you're investigating has taken the money and appears to have agreed to do things in exchange for the money. 因为你正在调查的人收了钱，并且似乎同意为钱做一些事情。

Devlin Barrett: But that's not really the end of the investigation. 但这并非调查的真正结束。

Natalie Kitroof: Why not? 为什么不是？

Devlin Barrett: For a couple reasons. 有几个原因。

Devlin Barrett: one because there was no very specific act that he agreed to do in exchange for that money and two it's important to remember at the time he takes the money Tom Hman is still not a government official he certainly can't make the Biden administration which was running the government at that time award contracts so in the moment the cash is handed over homeman really can't deliver even if he wants to 首先，因为他没有明确同意为这笔钱做任何具体的事情；其次，重要的是要记住，在他收钱的时候，汤姆·霍曼仍然不是政府官员，他当然不能让当时执政的拜登政府授予合同，所以在那一刻，即使他愿意，霍曼也无法兑现。

Natalie Kitroof: right I guess the assumption here is that this is like a down payment for future services that he could potentially render. 对，我想这里的假设是，这就像是他未来可能提供的服务的预付款。

Natalie Kitroof: Correct. 对吗？

Devlin Barrett: Right. 没错。

Devlin Barrett: The investigators thought of it as this is the start of the relationship. 调查人员认为这是建立关系的第一步。

Devlin Barrett: This is the start of the process. 这是整个过程的开始。

Natalie Kitroof: Delin, does that help explain a question I've had about all this, which is $50,000 is a lot of money, but it also doesn't feel like enough for someone like Homeman to do something this risky that could really jeopardize his career, 娜塔莉·基特鲁夫：德夫林，这是否能解释我一直以来对这件事的一个疑问：5万美元虽然很多，但对于像霍曼这样的人来说，似乎不足以让他冒如此大的风险，这可能会真正危及他的职业生涯，对吗？

Devlin Barrett: right? 对吧？

Devlin Barrett: It wasn't necessarily that you give him this $50,000 and then he immediately starts doing things for you. 并非你给他5万美元，他就会立即为你做事。

Devlin Barrett: One source described it as, you know, they paid money to make a friend. 一位消息人士将其描述为，你知道的，他们付钱交朋友。

Devlin Barrett: And in a regular corruption investigation, there would naturally be follow-up meetings, maybe follow-up payments. 而在常规的腐败调查中，自然会有后续会议，也许还会有后续付款。

Devlin Barrett: That's certainly a possibility in such a in such an investigation, 在这样的调查中，这当然是一种可能性。

Natalie Kitroof: right? 对吧？

Natalie Kitroof: They're playing the long game here. 他们在这里是在打持久战。

Devlin Barrett: Exactly. 没错。

Devlin Barrett: They have a very strong start to a case. 他们有一个非常强劲的案件开端。

Devlin Barrett: They have very good evidence and they have a very good basis to proceed with their investigation. 他们有非常充分的证据，也有非常好的基础来推进调查。

Natalie Kitroof: And then Trump wins the election, 然后特朗普赢得了选举，

Natalie Kitroof: right? 对吧？

特朗普胜选与霍曼的任命

Devlin Barrett: And within days of Trump winning the election, the president-elect announces that Tom Hman will become his border zar. 德夫林·巴雷特：在特朗普赢得选举的几天之内，当选总统宣布汤姆·霍曼将成为他的边境沙皇。

Devlin Barrett: And not many people know the ins and outs of these ZAR positions that government and white houses sometimes announce. 而且，很多人并不了解政府和白宫有时会宣布的这些“沙皇”职位的来龙去脉。

Natalie Kitroof: Yeah. 是啊。

Natalie Kitroof: I've always wondered, is that a real long-term position in the US government? 我一直想知道，这在美国政府中是一个真正的长期职位吗？

Natalie Kitroof: bizarre. 奇怪。

Devlin Barrett: It's not a something you're nominated for. 它不是一个需要你被提名才能担任的职位。

Devlin Barrett: It's not something that the Senate confirms you for. 它也不是一个需要参议院确认的职位。

Devlin Barrett: It's it's very much sort of a point person for an administration on a particular subject. 它更像是一个政府在某个特定问题上的联络人。

Devlin Barrett: But what matters in this instance is that because there's no Senate confirmation, there's not the same kind of background check scrubbing that goes on for a ZAR position as there is for a cabinet official or a deputy cabinet official. 但在这种情况下，重要的是，由于没有参议院的确认，边境沙皇职位不会像内阁官员 (Cabinet Official: 政府内阁成员，通常由总统提名并经参议院确认) 或副内阁官员 (Deputy Cabinet Official: 内阁官员的副手) 那样进行严格的背景审查。

Devlin Barrett: And that's important in Homeman's situation because there is this underlying outstanding case. 这在霍曼的情况中很重要，因为有一个悬而未决的潜在案件。

Natalie Kitroof: Are you saying basically that this might have been intentional that the Trump administration might have nominated Homeman to the Zsar position in order to avoid a background check? 你是说，这可能是有意的，特朗普政府可能提名霍曼担任边境沙皇职位，以避免背景调查吗？

Devlin Barrett: It's really unclear. 这真的不清楚。

Devlin Barrett: But we do know, however, that during the transition, after Trump is elected, but before he is sworn into office, federal law enforcement officials notify and essentially warn the incoming administration that this investigation exists into Tom Hman. 但我们确实知道，在过渡期间，也就是特朗普当选后但在宣誓就职前，联邦执法官员通知并实质上警告了即将上任的政府，关于汤姆·霍曼的这项调查确实存在。

Natalie Kitroof: And the Trump Justice Department then does inherit this investigation. 那么，特朗普司法部确实继承了这项调查。

Natalie Kitroof: Walk us through what they do with it. 请告诉我们他们是如何处理的。

调查被叫停与政府回应

Devlin Barrett: The short answer is they don't do much of anything with it. 德夫林·巴雷特：简而言之，他们对此几乎没做任何事。

Devlin Barrett: The senior officials of that administration look at the case and they don't like it. 该政府的高级官员审查了这个案件，但他们不喜欢它。

Devlin Barrett: They're very skeptical that this is anything worth pursuing. 他们非常怀疑这是否值得追查。

Devlin Barrett: And this this case that the agents and investigators thought was was a very solid case, a very promising start, it just gets closed. 而这个探员和调查人员认为非常扎实、非常有前景的案件，就这样被关闭了。

Natalie Kitroof: We'll be right back. 我们马上回来。

Natalie Kitroof: So Devlin, once this story breaks about the investigation and about the ending of the investigation, what happens? 所以德夫林，一旦关于这项调查及其结束的消息传开，会发生什么？

Natalie Kitroof: How does the Trump administration respond? 特朗普政府是如何回应的？

Natalie Kitroof: Do they explain their decision to drop this case? 他们是否解释了撤销此案的决定？

Devlin Barrett: So when we ask the Justice Department to explain, you know, why was this case closed? 德夫林·巴雷特：所以当我们要求司法部解释，你知道的，为什么这个案子被关闭了？

Devlin Barrett: The FBI director Cash Patel and the deputy attorney general Todd Blanch said that, you know, it was reviewed by agents and prosecutors and they said those agents and prosecutors found no credible evidence of any criminal wrongdoing. 联邦调查局局长卡什·帕特尔和副总检察长托德·布兰奇说，这个案子经过探员和检察官的审查，他们说这些探员和检察官没有发现任何可信的犯罪证据。

Devlin Barrett: They basically called it a baseless investigation and that's why they say they closed it. 他们基本上称之为一项毫无根据的调查，这就是他们说关闭它的原因。

Natalie Kitroof: They don't mention the bag of cash specifically. 他们没有具体提到那个现金袋。

Devlin Barrett: They don't mention the bag of cash and that becomes a real focal point of all the questions that follow about what the administration did here and why they did it. 德夫林·巴雷特：他们没有提到现金袋，这成为了所有后续问题的一个真正焦点，关于政府在这里做了什么以及为什么这么做。

Devlin Barrett: One of the first very public comments about all this is the White House press secretary Carolyn Levit. 关于这一切，最早的公开评论之一来自白宫新闻秘书卡罗琳·莱维特。

Carolyn Levit: Does Homeman have to return the $50,000? 霍曼需要归还这5万美元吗？

Carolyn Levit: Well, Mr. Holman never took the $50,000 that you're referring to, so you should get your facts straight. 嗯，霍曼先生从未收过你所说的5万美元，所以你应该搞清楚事实。

Carolyn Levit: Number one, 第一，

Devlin Barrett: denying that he took the money at all. 德夫林·巴雷特：完全否认他收了钱。

Devlin Barrett: Hours after that, 几小时后，

Natalie Kitroof: Tom, I want to give you a chance to address this article that came out over the weekend. 汤姆，我想给你一个机会，回应周末刊登的这篇文章。

Devlin Barrett: Tom H. Homeman goes on Fox News and he's given an opportunity to just respond to the reporting, respond to these allegations. 德夫林·巴雷特：汤姆·霍曼上了福克斯新闻，他有机会回应报道，回应这些指控。

Devlin Barrett: And his answer is very telling in one way in that he never denies taking the money. 而他的回答在某种程度上非常说明问题，因为他从未否认收受了这笔钱。

Tom H. Homeman: Sorry. 抱歉。

Tom H. Homeman: Look, I did nothing criminal. 听着，我没有做任何犯罪的事。

Tom H. Homeman: I did nothing illegal. 我没有做任何非法的事。

Tom H. Homeman: And there's hit piece after hit piece after hit piece. 而且一篇又一篇的攻击性文章接踵而至。

Devlin Barrett: He repeats very emphatically that he didn't commit any crime. 德夫林·巴ሬ特：他非常强调地重申，他没有犯任何罪。

Devlin Barrett: And I'm glad the FBI and DOJ came out and said and that, you know, said that nothing illegal happened, nothing, you know, uh, no criminal activity. 我很高兴联邦调查局和司法部出来说，你知道的，说没有发生任何非法的事情，没有任何，你知道的，嗯，没有犯罪活动。

Devlin Barrett: You're talking about 你正在谈论……

Natalie Kitroof: Yeah. 是的。

Natalie Kitroof: Suddenly, we're talking not about whether this happened or not, but about whether it was legal. 突然间，我们讨论的不再是这件事是否发生，而是它是否合法。

Natalie Kitroof: And obviously those two things are very different, 这两件事显然非常不同，

Devlin Barrett: right? 对吧？

Devlin Barrett: And so the administration ends up getting very adamant about the point that Homeman makes in his interview on this which is just to say there was no crime here and that becomes a kind of mantra throughout the administration as the questions keep coming up. 德夫林·巴雷特：因此，政府最终非常坚持霍曼在采访中提出的观点，即这里没有犯罪，这成为了整个政府的一种口头禅，因为问题不断出现。

Natalie Kitroof: Do you know sitting here? 你坐在这里知道吗？

Natalie Kitroof: All I know is that deputy attorney general Todd Blanch and FBI Director Patel said there was no case. 我只知道副总检察长托德·布兰奇和联邦调查局局长帕特尔说没有案件。

Natalie Kitroof: and Caroline. 还有卡罗琳。

政治交锋与法律争议

Devlin Barrett: Last week, there's a hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee in which Attorney General Pam Bondi is very confrontational. 德夫林·巴雷特：上周，参议院司法委员会 (Senate Judiciary Committee: 美国参议院的一个常设委员会，负责审查司法提名和立法) 举行了一场听证会，总检察长帕姆·邦迪在会上非常具有对抗性。

Pam Bondi: If you work for me, you would have been fired. 如果你为我工作，你早就被解雇了。

Devlin Barrett: She is adamant that no crime was committed and she basically goes on the attack and just criticizes the lawmakers who are even asking the question. 德夫林·巴雷特：她坚称没有犯罪，她基本上是采取攻击姿态，批评那些甚至提出问题的议员。

Natalie Kitroof: Hm. 嗯。

Devlin Barrett: In the same vein, just this past weekend, the vice president, JD Vance, is interviewed by ABC's George Stephanopoulos, and he's asked again about Tom Hman in the bag of cash. 德夫林·巴雷特：同样地，就在上周末，副总统JD·万斯接受了ABC的乔治·斯特凡诺普洛斯的采访，他再次被问及汤姆·霍曼和现金袋的事情。

George Stephanopoulos: Question. 问题。

George Stephanopoulos: Are you saying that he did not accept the $50,000? 你是说他没有收这5万美元吗？

Devlin Barrett: Vance's answer is very similar to Bondi's. 德夫林·巴雷特：万斯的回答与邦迪的非常相似。

Devlin Barrett: The question is, did he do something illegal? 问题是，他做了什么非法的事情吗？

Devlin Barrett: And there's absolutely no evidence that Tom Hol, which is why he's working in the administration. 而且完全没有证据表明汤姆·霍尔做了什么，这就是他为什么能在政府工作的原因。

Devlin Barrett: He insists no crime was committed. 他坚称没有犯罪。

Devlin Barrett: and again goes on the attack for even asking the question. 而且再次攻击那些甚至提出问题的人。

Natalie Kitroof: Of course, this administration dropped the investigation before they could actually prove whether or not a crime was being committed. 当然，本届政府在他们能够实际证明是否正在发生犯罪之前，就放弃了调查。

Natalie Kitroof: So, Develin, what do you make of their argument? 那么，德夫林，你如何看待他们的论点？

Devlin Barrett: So, on a political level, their argument is very simple. 德夫林·巴雷特：所以，在政治层面，他们的论点非常简单。

Devlin Barrett: This was a partisan witch hunt generated by the last Democratic administration. 这是一场由上一届民主党政府发起的党派政治迫害。

Devlin Barrett: The legal argument is actually a little more complicated and it touches on a lot of things. 法律论点实际上要复杂一些，它涉及很多方面。

Devlin Barrett: First, I would just say not everyone inside the Justice Department has the exact same view about this case. 首先，我想说的是，并非司法部内部的每个人对这个案件都有完全相同的看法。

Devlin Barrett: I have talked to people who feel very strongly that it was a very strong case, a chargeable case, a pursuable case, and it's frustrating to those people that the case was dropped. 我曾与一些人交谈过，他们强烈认为这是一个非常强有力的案件，一个可以指控的案件，一个可以追究的案件，对这些人来说，案件被撤销是令人沮丧的。

Devlin Barrett: I have talked to other people inside the department who have made the argument, look, this was a great beginning of a case. 我还与部门内的其他人交谈过，他们认为，看，这是一个很好的案件开端。

Devlin Barrett: We had not finished the case and it's not a terrific case without more evidence. 我们还没有完成这个案件，如果没有更多证据，它就不是一个出色的案件。

Devlin Barrett: So, there aren't universal views about this even inside the department. 所以，即使在部门内部，对这件事也没有普遍的看法。

Devlin Barrett: But it also, this case speaks to what's really a long-running disagreement about whether or not the Justice Department is overusing and stretching corruption laws beyond what they were intended to do. 但同时，这个案件也反映了一个长期存在的争议，即司法部是否过度使用和滥用腐败法律，使其超出了原有的目的。

Devlin Barrett: And over a number of years, the Supreme Court has basically whittleled away at how federal corruption laws can be used and has repeatedly sent a signal to the Justice Department that certainly the conservatives on the court believe that the Justice Department is in many cases misusing or overusing corruption statutes to go after politicians. 多年来，最高法院基本上削弱了联邦腐败法律的使用方式，并多次向司法部发出信号，法院中的保守派肯定认为司法部在许多案件中滥用或过度使用腐败法规来打击政治人物。

Natalie Kitroof: meaning there's a disagreement within the legal community about what actually constitutes corruption or at least what's the threshold for proving it in court. 这意味着法律界内部对于腐败的实际构成，或者至少是在法庭上证明腐败的门槛，存在分歧。

Devlin Barrett: Well, exactly. 德夫林·巴雷特：嗯，没错。

Devlin Barrett: And one of the ways that this case gets argued about among lawyers is there's something called stream of benefits corruption which makes the argument that you don't need a very explicit quid proquo. 律师们争论这个案件的一种方式是，有一种叫做利益流腐败 (Stream of Benefits Corruption: 一种法律论证，指不需要明确的“等价交换”，只需证明存在腐败性的利益输送关系) 的概念，它认为你不需要一个非常明确的等价交换 (Quid Pro Quo: 拉丁语，指“此物换彼物”，一种明确的交换条件)。

Devlin Barrett: You don't need a very explicit you give me X dollars and I will do Y for you. 你不需要非常明确地说“你给我X美元，我就会为你做Y”。

Devlin Barrett: soprano style, 像歌剧一样，

Natalie Kitroof: right? 对吧？

Natalie Kitroof: That what you can have is a sort of corrupt flow relationship where I do the following things for you, like cash, and you in exchange do the following things for me, like official favors, like getting contracts, but the court has to believe that it's explicit. 你所拥有的可能是一种腐败的“利益流”关系，我为你做这些事情，比如给现金，而你作为回报为我做那些事情，比如官方的恩惠，比如获得合同，但法院必须相信这是明确的。

Natalie Kitroof: It can't just be a vague set of actions. 它不能只是一系列模糊的行动。

Devlin Barrett: That's the argument for how you could charge a case like this. 这就是你如何指控这类案件的论点。

Devlin Barrett: So, there are obviously a lot of open legal questions here and maybe what the FBI had in its hands wasn't an open and shut case yet. 德夫林·巴雷特：所以，这里显然有很多悬而未决的法律问题，也许联邦调查局掌握的证据还不足以构成一个板上钉钉的案件。

Devlin Barrett: But Homeman taking this money as a lawman, as the chief spokesman of this administration's immigration policy, it does raise all sorts of questions and the administration not following up also raises questions. 但霍曼作为一名执法人员，作为本届政府移民政策的首席发言人，收受这笔钱确实引发了各种疑问，而政府没有跟进也引发了疑问。

Natalie Kitroof: I guess what I'm wondering, Develin, is there's been so many similar scandals swirling around the Trump administration at this point. 德夫林，我想知道的是，目前特朗普政府周围已经充斥着如此多类似的丑闻。

Natalie Kitroof: Allegations of corruption from crypto to the free airplane. 从加密货币到免费飞机，各种腐败指控不绝于耳。

Natalie Kitroof: A lot of those have kind of faded away in the fire hose of news that we are all experiencing on a day-to-day basis. 许多此类新闻在我们每天经历的海量新闻洪流中逐渐淡去。

Natalie Kitroof: But this one has kind of outlived the Trump news cycle. 但这一事件却超越了特朗普新闻周期的寿命。

Natalie Kitroof: Why? 为什么？

丑闻为何挥之不去？

Devlin Barrett: I mean, look, as someone who covers the Justice Department and the FBI, I will tell you that there are many corruption cases that are hard to follow, hard to explain, hard to just unravel and unpack. 德夫林·巴雷特：我的意思是，听着，作为一名报道司法部和联邦调查局的记者，我告诉你，有很多腐败案件很难追踪、很难解释，也很难理清和分析。

Devlin Barrett: Crypto isn't an easy thing to explain. 加密货币可不是一个容易解释的东西。

Natalie Kitroof: Sure. 当然。

Devlin Barrett: You know what is easy to explain? 你知道什么很容易解释吗？

Devlin Barrett: I have a bag full of cash. 我有一个装满现金的袋子。

Devlin Barrett: That's pretty simple. 那很简单。

Devlin Barrett: Why did he take a bag of cash? 他为什么要拿一袋现金？

Devlin Barrett: What did he do with the cash? 他把现金拿去做什么了？

Natalie Kitroof: Hm. 嗯。

Devlin Barrett: And in addition to how simple a bag of cash is, we know from the reporting that an audio tape exists somewhere, 德夫林·巴雷特：除了现金袋的简单性之外，我们从报道中得知，某个地方存在一段录音。

Natalie Kitroof: right? 对吧？

Natalie Kitroof: And that tape could be released. 而且那盘录音可能会被公布。

Natalie Kitroof: People could start demanding its release, 人们可能会开始要求公布它，

Devlin Barrett: right? 对吧？

Devlin Barrett: So if you think for a minute about the Jeffrey Epstein case, obviously the Tom Hman case is not the Jeffrey Epstein case. 德夫林·巴雷特：所以如果你想一下杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的案子，显然汤姆·霍曼的案子不是杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的案子。

Natalie Kitroof: Epste is a completely different type of case with a completely different history. 爱泼斯坦是一个完全不同类型的案件，有着完全不同的历史。

Devlin Barrett: Yep. 是的。

Devlin Barrett: But the demand to release the Tom Hman tape is in some ways very similar to the demands to release the Epstein files because it's a simple straightforward question and it it sort of when you are told no, it begs the question, well, why is the answer no? 德夫林·巴雷特：但要求公布汤姆·霍曼录音的要求，在某些方面与要求公布爱泼斯坦文件的要求非常相似，因为这是一个简单直接的问题，当你被告知“不”时，它会引出一个问题：为什么答案是“不”？

Natalie Kitroof: Can I just ask, do we know what happened to the money, the 50,000? 我能问一下吗，我们知道那笔钱，那5万美元，后来怎么样了吗？

Devlin Barrett: We really don't. 德夫林·巴雷特：我们真的不知道。

Devlin Barrett: A lot of what you've seen since the initial reporting is people trying to figure out the answer to that question, but the administration really won't tell us and Homeman so far hasn't told us. 自从最初的报道以来，你所看到的大部分都是人们试图找出这个问题的答案，但政府真的不告诉我们，霍曼到目前为止也没有告诉我们。

Devlin Barrett: So the case may be dead, but I think what hasn't died is people's desire to know the answer to that question. 所以这个案子可能已经死了，但我认为没有死的是人们想知道那个问题答案的愿望。

Devlin Barrett: So I think for the foreseeable future, wherever Tom Hman goes, he's going to be asked that question. 所以我认为在可预见的未来，无论汤姆·霍曼走到哪里，他都会被问到那个问题。

Devlin Barrett: What did you do with the money? 你把钱拿去做什么了？

Natalie Kitroof: Well, Develin, thanks so much for coming on the show. 嗯，德夫林，非常感谢你来节目。

Devlin Barrett: Thanks for happening. 谢谢邀请。

Natalie Kitroof: We'll be right back. 我们马上回来。

其他新闻速览

Natalie Kitroof: Here's what else you should know today. 以下是今天你还应该知道的其他新闻。

Natalie Kitroof: On Tuesday, President Trump announced that the US had killed six men aboard a boat off the coast of Venezuela, the fifth known strike on a boat in the Caribbean Sea since September. 周二，特朗普总统宣布美国在委内瑞拉海岸击毙了船上的六名男子，这是自9月以来，在加勒比海域对船只进行的第五次已知袭击。

Natalie Kitroof: He said the men had been transporting drugs, but provided no evidence to support that claim. 他说这些人一直在运输毒品，但没有提供任何证据来支持这一说法。

Natalie Kitroof: And while he posted a video of the attack, the president offered no details about the nationality of the suspects and didn't identify them as belonging to any particular criminal group. 尽管他发布了袭击视频，但总统没有提供关于嫌疑人国籍的任何细节，也没有指明他们属于任何特定的犯罪集团。

Natalie Kitroof: The US military has now killed 27 people in these boat attacks, treating them as if they were enemy soldiers in the middle of a war zone rather than criminal suspects. 美国军方目前已在这些船只袭击中击毙27人，将他们视为战区中的敌方士兵，而非犯罪嫌疑人。

Javier Milei: And it's a great honor to have the leader of Argentina, a place that I love. 能有阿根廷领导人到访是我的荣幸，那是一个我热爱的地方。

Javier Milei: I've been to and one of the most beautiful places in the world. 我去过那里，它是世界上最美丽的地方之一。

Javier Milei: President and I really want to thank you very much. 总统，我真的非常感谢你。

Natalie Kitroof: Trump hosted Argentinian President Javier Malay at the White House on Tuesday just days after the US agreed to move ahead with a 20 billion bailout of Argentina. 周二，特朗普在白宫接待了阿根廷总统哈维尔·米莱，就在美国同意推进对阿根廷200亿美元救助计划的几天后。

Donald Trump: We think he's going to win. 我们认为他会赢。

Donald Trump: He should win. 他应该赢。

Donald Trump: And if he does win, we're going to be very helpful. 如果他赢了，我们会非常乐意提供帮助。

Donald Trump: And if he doesn't win, we're not going to waste our time because you you have somebody whose philosophy has no chance of making Argentina great again. 如果他没有赢，我们就不会浪费时间了，因为你有一个人的理念根本不可能让阿根廷再次伟大。

Natalie Kitroof: Trump explicitly tied US economic support for the country to the political fortunes of Malay, who's trying to save off a financial meltdown at home and whose party is facing tough midterm elections this month. 特朗普明确将美国对阿根廷的经济支持与米莱的政治命运挂钩，米莱正试图在国内避免金融崩溃，其政党本月也面临艰难的中期选举。

Natalie Kitroof: Trump acknowledged that the bailout was intended to support the Argentinian leaders fiscally conservative policies and wouldn't make a big difference for the US. 特朗普承认，这项救助旨在支持阿根廷领导人的财政保守政策，对美国不会产生太大影响。

Natalie Kitroof: Today's episode was produced by Caitlyn O'Keefe and Carlos Pedto. 今天这集节目由凯特琳·奥基夫和卡洛斯·佩德托制作。

Natalie Kitroof: It was edited by Liz O Balin and Michael Benois and contains original music by Marian Lozano, Will Reed, and Dan Pal and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. 由利兹·O·巴林和迈克尔·贝诺瓦编辑，包含马里安·洛萨诺、威尔·里德和丹·帕尔的原创音乐，由阿莉莎·莫克斯利进行工程制作。

Natalie Kitroof: That's it for the daily. 《每日》节目到此结束。

Natalie Kitroof: I'm Natalie Ketrof. 我是娜塔莉·基特鲁夫。

Natalie Kitroof: See you tomorrow. 明天见。