Guillermo Rauch: I'll say one thing about VIP coding. It's really easy to go from zero to one. I think we've all seen the demos of I prom thing and it's cool. I think what's harder is to iterate on a project at scale and to deploy changes safely. Every marketer ever sells to change this page at some point and the old way was one of two ways. One is what I called you had to petition to the government. You had to go to engineers and say, "Engineers, can you please add a logo over here or whatnot or pray that the CMS was perfectly wired up for any ambition or dream or idea you had. So now they can just open this page in VZ and prompt anything that they want.

Claire Vo: It reduces the friction of getting something live really, really low. The humiliation ritual of prioritization goes away and you can actually focus your time on defending the merits of an idea on the actual idea as opposed to the hypothesis of the idea that then has to be implemented. And so I think it changes the speed of companies in a really significant way.

Claire Vo: So this is truly a first time vibe podcast that we're doing together and I wanted to introduce myself. I'm Claire Vo. of a product leader and obsessed with AI and I have a podcast, How I AI, where I teach people how to build better with all these new tools, including ones that we're going to see today. And I'm really excited to have you here, G. First, we're just going to get to the the thing that everybody's wondering about. What is your most favorite feature that you released this week on VZero?

Guillermo Rauch: Well, I'll tell you the hottest thing in AI today is skills. Everyone is excited about the fact that we can now augment agents and AI applications and agentic engineering with skills like skills that the model doesn't yet have. And so we launched skills.sh and the beautiful thing about what we'll show you today is that Vzero can seriously go from prototype all the way to production. So we're able to conceive changes to things like skills.sh. I'm going to show you really quickly. Skills.sh SH is a new you can think of it as like npm. It's a hub an open ecosystem of skills and it's pretty dramatic what's happening to this site. So you can see that we now have 34,000 skills submitted by the community and this website has gone viral all over the internet. It's hosted on Verscell but the most exciting part to me is that it was conceived in Bzero.

Claire Vo: I have a quick question for the audience. How many of you have installed a skill in the last week?

Guillermo Rauch: Oh wow.

Claire Vo: Okay. A lot of people

Guillermo Rauch: skill build.

Claire Vo: Um, how many of you have the top three installed?

Guillermo Rauch: Actually, top it's very heavy at the top. Right. It's like these are ripping.

Claire Vo: Oh, no. I have top seven. Okay. Yeah, I have the top seven installed right now. Um, this is a really great resource. So, for folks that are maybe watching this later or haven't been familiar with skills, skills is now this standard that a lot of these agentic frameworks are using. to help you repurpose and reuse best practices, step-by-step flows. And so, for example, I use this Remotion best practices one um to let me import components and regularly create videos really, really quickly. And I would not have been able to do this without the expertise that's been packaged in these best practices that were installed with one line um using skills.sh. I think it's also worth noting maybe to peel the covers of how Versel builds products.

Guillermo Rauch: Yep.

Claire Vo: Skills out a stage was a thing that was just conceived at the moment of inspiration. We started prompting, hey, wouldn't it be cool if this thing took shape?

Guillermo Rauch: Would we discussed for example what it should look like? We we've been calling this style terminal core because it looks a little bit like this is my contribution to the project. I was like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if we make the top of the website look like a terminal? And so the the the process itself of building this was very much prompt driven I'll say like chatting in Slack and saying hey wouldn't it be nice if we had a hub for this just very iterative very collaborative between the team members at Verscell and what's really cool about this again is it's really fast so it takes advantage of all the versel infrastructure primitives even though it has 35,000 of the skills like if I start like like hardcore scrolling this and then pick a random one. All right, Swift Taylor Swift. You're going to see like the page transitions are are swift to UI. Okay, but uh like all the page transitions are instant production grade. He needed to scale. There were going to be a lot of eyes on this thing.

Claire Vo: Okay. So, I think we want to get to our first workflow for how AI and you just want to show us how you either develop this or how you and the team improve this over time using the tool.

Guillermo Rauch: I'll say one thing about VIP coding. It's really easy to go from zero to one. Like I think we've all seen the demos of I prom thing and it's cool and I think what's harder is to iterate on a project at scale and to deploy changes safely. In in the case of how we work on versel products, we always work on branches and we take advantage of branch previews and then we code review and then we merge them. So what we're basically going to be showing you today is how we brought those ideas of hardcore heavyduty production grade engineering to visit. So I'm here I'm binding that same project that you just saw skills.sh which is piped into is basically backed by git the engineer who built this pushed some code three hours ago and you have this new button within v 0ero which is a new branch. So what this is showing you is that B 0 is making the git flow of creating branches a first class citizen of the product. So I'm going to create a branch and basically this is going to give me the same sort of like chat experience you're used to. But notice here at the top I get this beautiful new convention of project slash branch. Right? So I have the v 0/rouchg branch. And here within the preview, you're going to notice that just like if you had cloned the project to your local device, we both have a full full scale uh VS Code editor as well as the real project running within VZ. One thing I want to pause and notice because I just have a laser eye for product is I love that you use the convention that all of us with engineering teams use on our git branches which is who's the contributor slash what's the feature and so what I think this is really interesting you know we're going to talk about how you actually use these tools to build but I also think there's a flip side of how you design great um AI products and agentic products and I still like the small design tweaks that make something like a vzero feel like a collaborative teammate on your So I for all the engineers out there, I noticed I noticed that little convention.

Guillermo Rauch: So I and what you're going to see in the design philosophy of the product is that we really wanted to embed those little details of what makes a real engineering workflow come to life, but in a really easy way, right? Like at the end of the day, I didn't have to go to a terminal or boot up GitHub desktop and branch manually. Like it's the stone age. I just press a button and now I have a branch running. So the main idea here is that within this preview I have the full skills.sh project running. It downloaded dependencies. It installed the exact versions of Nex.js and every dependency uh within the project. I have it all running here. I have it obviously within a staging or dev sort of environment. And now you know I I could navigate it like uh I could navigate the production website. I could explore it. I could, you know, use all the capabilities that Vzero uh brings to the table, but I figured let's actually build a feature that we could ship to prod.

Claire Vo: Yeah. And one thing I want to pause on what you I think glossed over a little bit, which is the fact that you have this VS Code instance, the fact that you have all your dependencies installed, the fact that this is running both with code and a preview. For anybody who's less technical out there, and maybe a lot of your users that are using vzero.app app are less technical. This even like downloading VS Code, getting your local environment set up, like I spent this morning with my designer installing homebrew like like it just wasn't on her laptop. And so

Guillermo Rauch: it's nightmare feel.

Claire Vo: It's nightmare. And so if you're trying to step from this like vibe coding prototype in web experience into feeling more like a software engineer without having to have Claire handhold you through like brew install, this gets you like halfway there. And so I think there's also this learning aspect of it I want to make sure people don't miss. But let's get into building something obvious.

Guillermo Rauch: So one another part of our product development process is really listening to community and listening to customers. So people have been asking for a lot of different tools so that we could guide them towards knowing if a skill is high quality, vetted, verified because there's so many skills. At last we checked there were 500 skills being added every hour. And so one of the ideas that we came up with is like could we add um a rating system. So let's add a fivestarbased rating system for the skills. Uh put it on the sidebar. Um be mindful. So I'll also give you like a little bit of my real time consciousness on if I were talking to an engineer and say like what could go wrong if we accept ratings from the internet. One of the things that can go wrong if you accept ratings from is abuse. So let's say let's tell VZ be mindful that uh we should rate limit or prevent abuse on the scores that we receive. And again, for me, it's all about thinking from a production readiness point of view when I think about the new VZO and make it make sense within the style of this skills website.

Claire Vo: What I love about what you're showing us is you have this very very high sophistication prompt here, which is make it make sense. So, we have three three incomplete sentences on a production app serving thousands, millions of people. and you're going to fire it off. And while you do this, one of the things I want to just call out that I think you know why this feature is maybe important right now is I don't know if you've heard there's like this crustation crawling all over everybody's MacBook minis and skills can be a a prompt injected vector for things. And so as you're trying to make sure that this becomes the centralized hub for discovering skills, which I think it's starting to be, it is upon you to kind of make sure that the quality is there, at least you have the right thing um right things in place so people can make the decision to follow with your analogy. This is a little bit like we're vibe coding on top github.com or npmjs.com. It's like a really really big deal.

Guillermo Rauch: All right. So I was going to walk you through what Vzero is doing which of course if you've used V 0ero before we everyone does the whole like talk over the thinking trace because agents are not the fastest but I do want to point out a few things that are really important. So um D0 is all about leveraging the integration and marketplace capabilities of RCEL. So in this case it knows what the data source is of this project right we're storing data in reddis by app stash obviously it's going to go through the whole file system it's going to try to interpret my requirements this is already like really nice to see that it's not inventing a new way to store the data like it's actually paying attention to the data that I use um and so we'll take a look at uh again here like it actually gave me something that meets my requirements, right? Like it fits within the design style. I can submit a rating. It is stores the rating. So I have now my fivestar one rating. I guess I'm going to

Claire Vo: It's terminal core monace font.

Guillermo Rauch: Um let's refresh the page to see that persistence actually works. Beautiful. There's a tiny bit of layout shift that triggers my neurosis. So we'll tell it, hey, when we don't have data, make sure there's no layout shift. By the way, for those of you that are like less neurotic, I guess. So, it bothered me that when we refreshed the page, when we didn't have data, like it jittered the sidebar a little bit. So, we're just going to have the zero.

Claire Vo: So, while we're uh jibber jabbering while the it's thinking, which I have to get very good at as a podcast. So, I will call out that I have observed a Verscell internal hackathon and I have seen this man screenshot like rounded corners that are not right and just put them in the chat with like a question mark. And so it's it's yeah it it speaks to my um

Guillermo Rauch: my very attention to detail heart that you saw you saw that did it work.

Claire Vo: Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm fairly satisfied like the Yeah.

Guillermo Rauch: The skeleton was stable.

Claire Vo: Yeah. Yeah.

Guillermo Rauch: Uh zero layout shift. So let's continue with the we we talked about this uh hardcore uh engineering workflow like if if we were making a change like this on skills age again receiving hundreds of skills per hour with lots of visitors we first want to make sure that things work right and right now you you can think of this as a very capable dev environment we're booting up the NexJS dev server in a virtual machine it's it's it's basically very true to the actual end result. In fact, thank you to the Nex.js engineers who sweated all of the details of mirroring to the best of their ability the dev environment and the production environment. But there is another layer of assurance that we can get, right, which is so if you're more familiar with the g like the GitHub world, the GitHub side of things, you know that when you push a new PR to GitHub, the this beautiful Versel bot comes to sort of save the day, right? you know that it builds what you what you're changing and then it previews it. Not only that, but notice that Vzero really cooks. Vzero is making me look so good here because I haven't written a PR description in like 25 years 84 years. So Vzero produced a PR described it um and then the magic of our cell is coming in right so it's giving me that uh preview. So I'm going to I'm going to open it here. I'm going to say visit preview. I I'm just again I'm going to be a software engineer for a second. Can we appreciate how quickly that preview branch deployed?

Claire Vo: Well, don't trigger me because it can be 10 times quicker. But yeah, I'm proud of it.

Guillermo Rauch: Explain.

Guillermo Rauch: Now I have a production-like environment. So when you see this URL ending onverell.sh is our enterprise versell environment. That's why it had the 17 steps of logging in. Um but this is basically running on the production grade CDN on the production grade rendering infrastructure hosting infrastructure etc. So now when I'm seeing that you know rating there I have pretty pretty good confidence. I was like yeah this is shippable.

Claire Vo: Okay so I have to ask a couple questions about the you know inside the house view of this. Is this how you all are shipping code or is this a big chunk of how you're shipping code to this? Is it 100%? How are you actually using this for production?

Guillermo Rauch: So it's really interesting. We when we cook on a on a project or a product internally, we hold ourselves to the same sort of high bar as if you had launched a product externally because you want to make sure that people are actually adopting it, right? And so before before we started chatting and I'm going to give you a glimpse of again the behind the scenes of Verscell, uh we've talked a lot publicly about our data analyst agent D0. Yes, we're very creative with with names. We take the first initial and we add a zero. So this is our data uh AI powered assistant and I was actually asking it um I said um Vzero this is me by the way uh tell me about PR's merged with Vzero in the recent weeks tell me about its growth so again PR's merged with DZ is a totally novel thing and DZ cooked thank you DZ it said PRs merged via DZ have seen explosive growth in the last week wow explo explosive growth.

Claire Vo: I have to appreciate whoever prompt managed this one because it did not put the explosion of OG in there, which I think would also trigger G.

Guillermo Rauch: All right, we should uh Yeah. Uh trigger warning. Starting from near zero in early January, the feature hit 3200 PR submerged per day by January 2829, which is basically today. An extraordinary 100x. The bots, the AIS do like to like like Yeah. like sweet sweet tacas. But um it's it's pretty amazing. So this is in very very very early uh preview, right? Like we we're just letting people in. But I mean this is just such a beautiful workflow. I mean imagine triggering a task like this from your phone, from Slack, from vzero.app. Another convenience that we're adding is that you can take a a U GitHub repo like this and I can go to the homepage and then I can paste it. And so now I could import something that I already have and create a chat from it. So anytime I have an idea for a realworld project and product that has in production, I can now prompt. So I estimate that this is going to change fundamentally how we work, right? Uh it's also very visual in nature which is really cool. Obviously, there's a lot of ways of like getting preview getting uh changes made by agents today out out there in the world. These everyone's very excited about what what AI can do, but this is actually showing me the the actual results and like things that are going to happen. So, I I grade this really high for the kind of products that we build at VCell and uh I expect this to continue to have a lot of traction.

Claire Vo: So, I have to ask you sort of operationally, how do you imagine companies do this? And one of the things I'm thinking is I was chatting with Caroline who interrupted you all and say we're said we're going to start the podcast and she said last night I was prepping for this demo and I vzero coded something and somebody saw it and was like well that's a good idea you should just merge it and ship it like do you imagine or inside the company who's shipping code how are you enabling that as a CEO how does the culture support it how does it not

Guillermo Rauch: Until now everyone could cook right everyone could create a prototype a new design a suggestion. In fact, uh, moment of vulnerability because I haven't really even opened this in a while, but like, uh, let's see if I have I probably created a bunch of things that I've been suggesting to the teams that we could look at, right? Um, ignore this one for a second, but um, so anytime I have an idea on how to improve the product, I nowadays create a Vzero. Now the difference is that until I had this mechanism to hand it off as a pull request to the engineering team then I was kind of like playing in La La Lands. I was like in out there in this like prototype world and now we have a common foundation and a common substrate so that if you have an idea whether you work in marketing like marketers always want to change the website like imagine like go to verscell.com I'll show you a page that is actually quite uh fun at versell so our enterprise page every marketer of versell wants to change this page at some point right and the old way was to one of one of two ways. One is what I called you had to petition to the government. You had to go to engineers and say engineers please can you can you please add a logo over here or whatnot or pray that the CMS was perfectly wired up for any ambition or dream or idea you had. So now they can just open this page in VZ and prompt anything that they want. But it would be somewhat irresponsible to just ship it, right? So with the Git workflow and opening a PR and being able to preview it, we can all build confidence that it's going to be a good change, roll it back if needed, and and again, this is a website that's it's pretty pretty large.

Claire Vo: What I think is fun about this from an org perspect perspective is it reduces the friction of getting something live really really low, right? And like the humiliation ritual of prioritization goes away and you can actually focus your time on defending the merits of an idea on the actual idea as opposed to the hypothesis of the idea that then has to be implemented. And so I think it changes the speed of companies in in a really significant way. And you worked I mean to say the least at launch darkly

Guillermo Rauch: and you know that a true production grade release process involves things like feature flags and experiments and things need to be measured and there's events that are critical to report from these product surfaces. And so this is also where I see the um skills that we can add to vzero and that you can contribute yourself to play a very important role because sometimes you know like we're all operating on this like websites and pixels and whatnot and we say like ah it's seems easy how risky could it be to move this button 20 pixels to the right and so I think we can make vibe coding scale to that kind of rigor that exists within enterprises and companies at scale

Claire Vo: well and if we're being honest on that enterprise it's not going to be moving a button two pixels. It's going to be switching the emphasis. I know this cuz I spent my life in enterprise. Switching the emphasis between contact sales and view the product. There's going to be a perpetual debate which one's the primary call to action and which is the secondary.

Claire Vo: Okay. I we so we've shown uh new v0ero import GitHub which I think is really great. Do a pull request. Copy and paste your GitHub URL in to import it. Actually push to production. Make friends with your engineers. three sentence prompting, no more than that. I want to go to quick because we want to keep this tight. I want to go to a quick lightning round with you and ask you a couple different AI questions. So, what is your favorite non I mean everything's a coding use case, I'm sure, with you, but what is your favorite non-coding use case of AI?

Guillermo Rauch: Well, I'm conflicted. My mind immediately went to image generation because I used uh so we built a banger playground. Uh I don't want to share screen again. I want to take it from you. But

Claire Vo: this is Oh, no. I was just going to say image generation is how I got this pretty pretty background.

Guillermo Rauch: Um bzero nano banana pro. Nano banana. So what's really cool that's happening at Verscell today is that we're building so many of our own internal tools and agents and so we're building our own design tools like for example to create new images. We created a playground for Nan Banana and I use that a lot. So I use it to make memes uh guilty is charged. Uh, but I also use it when I want to present information in really cool ways. When I tweet, when I sometimes I have to make u present my vision in a way that's more like on the image side of things. I combine it a lot with vzero because nanobana is really good at like again letting me fire off 20 generations in parallel and then pick the one that I actually like and then I toss it into v 0ero and then I actually get more fidelity of what I want to implement. So image generation is is a big one, but also I'm very excited about video generation. We're going to be dropping something. I don't want to spoil it too much. Uh we're going to be dropping something uh on the video side as well. Um and but yeah, all all AI is uh I also I also kick off a lot of research tasks like long horizon research tasks. Uh yeah.

Claire Vo: So, one of the things I want to call out from a Nano Banana perspective on our podcast is I've used Nano Banana to turn every conversation, I think we're now at 118 workflows, every AI workflow that we talk about on the podcast gets its own pretty consistent nano banana infographic. And so, I just think there's just such undervalued use cases in both idio uh image and videogen. And I'm about to take this and turn them all into little mini videos.

Guillermo Rauch: We also created a really awesome I don't know if we've written about it yet. that we're publishing on the blog post. We have an uh OG image like open graph card, Twitter card generator that we use internally that combines uh more traditional rendering techniques but also image generation. So a bottleneck in our team was sometimes literally like can we get that social card to get the announcement through the door.

Guillermo Rauch: And so now we we've also sort of automated and identify that. Every day we're basically asking ourselves how can we build an agent that takes over a task that we were previously giving to a person and uh and typically the person that was working on that task is now the one creating the agent. Yeah. So something we said at the beginning is we want B zero to be really awesome for you all to create agents not just traditional web applications. So that's that's basically the the the road map of the product.

Claire Vo: So I have to say uh my favorite so that's your favorite use case. My favorite use case of your use of VZero which I don't know if you're you're prepared for me to have this much knowledge about what you vibe code is your Asiato Asia chess game.

Guillermo Rauch: My kids are obsessed with this. They think it's because they got the AI chess board and now they're like playing chess at various levels. By the way, I learned a lot. So, so it was really cool like during the holidays I uh I'm a I'm kind of a visual person. >> So, the chess AI thing has been done before, but I imagined this sort of um imagine like ESPN is is is is broadcasting a a final of a chess match and they're going over the shoulder of each player and showing the the the chessboard obviously in 3D. And so I I figured could could V 0 generate 3D code, right? Could it render with 3JS and things like that a uh a live chess match and could I have two AIs battle it out? And so um I mean you could open it. So the zero- chess-match.resellapp. Um and the other thing the other thing I wonder if I am SEOed or not.

Claire Vo: You you're number one. Good job.

Guillermo Rauch: Oh, yes.

Claire Vo: Oh, a little terminal core over here.

Guillermo Rauch: So, terminal core, of course. But, uh, so what I did is I I I started streaming the thinking tokens of the models. Uh, apologies to Google in advance. Uh, we're using a very old model of theirs that is really cheap, but they're losing two 225. At least they got five in. So, you can see the thinking tokens of the models. This is combining all of the Versel AI infrastructure. It's using a workflow so the game could run forever. The game could literally run forever or or until I run out of tokens.

Claire Vo: AI gateway.

Guillermo Rauch: Uh AI gateway of course because we can change models like we could we could see like Brock versus you know uh whatever uh what dropped this week when threeax thinking. Uh but also I learned chess incidentally because not from these guys. These guys are kind of dumb. Uh, you can see how it thinks through what piece to move and it says, "Oh, no, because if I move it there, I'm going to get F. So, I need to do this." So, this is a fun visor created during the holidays.

Claire Vo: Yeah. So, I need a kid core version of this. Um, I also want to see how much these models are spending to beat and lose.

Guillermo Rauch: Well, beautiful thing about the AI gateway is that we kind of report, you know, for this prompt, how much did it cost you with this model, etc. Um, but see, so this is GPT open source which is actually pretty decent and and uh pretty cheap. So

Claire Vo: great. And then so on this so that's my kids favorite your V0.

Guillermo Rauch: I don't know if they have a favorite my V. It's popular with kids. I also got another parent reach out to me and say like oh this really inspired us and we're going to use Vzero together to create more things.

Claire Vo: My kids a a DAU on VZero. Don't worry about it. So this is my second question which is what is the last thing you built with your kids that was really fun.

Guillermo Rauch: So the other day I brought them all to the office and what we started vibe coding is so now we want to do things that are more like physical AI like bring AI to the real world. I think it's the next frontier and so at the office we have a a thing called Vesta board which is a board where you can basically render things in the real world.

Guillermo Rauch: And I think I really broke their their brains that day. Not all of them because I I brought four of them and one was on his iPad not paying attention. It was almost like bringing them to Sunday school for what it's worth. Uh but two of them were like, "Holy crap, you can type in code and then you can change the real world." So I kind of taught them the concept of an API. Uh and yeah, all vibe coded and um I I took one of the nannies too and she was mind-blown.

Claire Vo: Well, that is teaching everyone how to v code. That is uh you and I we're like twin stars here because while you have the Vesta board which is pretty big, I have this like tiny like 32x32 pixel fake little mini computer that my kids and I are like vibe coding little screens on and little games on. So I completely agree. Take it off the screen for many reasons. If you have kids, put it in the real world and you can do some fun stuff and blow their mind.

Guillermo Rauch: Sending a packet and responding to it. And the beautiful thing about Vzero and things like this is like you're literally speaking English to the computer. So I think if you can teach them that they can express their thoughts and desires, then they can make anything happen.

Claire Vo: Okay, important question. Are you teaching your kids to type?

Guillermo Rauch: That's a tough one because I was when I grew up in Argentina, my dad got me this soccer game. He tricked me. I thought, "Oh, he's getting me FIFA or something cool." No, he got me a soccer typing game. So to score, I had to type really fast. And that's how you learn to type really fast. But nowadays, like they're kind of getting really into the the speech to text thing. I need to find that hack where like, "Oh, I got you Roblox." And it's not. It's just typing.

Claire Vo: It's just typing. So, I uh I I'm tricking my youngests right now. We have a Switch and I really want to play Ocarina of Time for people that were born when that game came out a million years ago. And the only reason I let him play it is it's like 99% just reading. >> And so I'm like, you can play this very slow paced game. It's a game. It's really just going NPC to NPC and reading to

Guillermo Rauch: phrases. So we played a game like this with my kids during the holiday break. Um it was basically like a puzzle math game that looked like a game and that inspired. So okay, good and bad. The good was the game was like really educational. The bad was like it was like at ridden brain rot slop. And so it's like okay huge opportunity for someone to create a game platform. You can combine all of these models. You can do image generation for the assets. We're about to drop something insanely cool text to SVG. There's models that now produce really really high qual. We're going to uh share recraft models through the Verscell AI gateway. So you can create assets that are beautiful game ready scalable in high DPI screens whatever iPad. And so I really I I I I see the future of really high quality content uh at our fingertips uh and getting rid of all this slop.

Claire Vo: Yeah. Well, um I you know my my future roadmap releases are not as confidential as yours and so I am in the back of my mind working on like Mama Claire's dojo for Crack Little Hackers.

Guillermo Rauch: Nice.

Claire Vo: So maybe someday and deployed on obviously Verscell. Okay, last question. Uh, do you when you're frustrated prompt AI the same way I have seen you prompt in Zoom chat which is explain how do you how do you how do you yeah question mark like what do you do when it's not giving you what you want?

Guillermo Rauch: So I I do think that what we what we're dropping now is going to help you so much for the moments where I mean let's be real you can get stuck with AI right but now that you can essentially have this full like let's call it escape hatch right like you can if you want you can clone the repo and keep cooking on your local machine or if you need some someone else to help you this is fundamentally a collaborative medium that's the thing that GitHub unlocked for the world collaboration between engineers designers marketers and So um I I foresee that a lot less people are going to get stuck frankly. The models also keep getting smarter. Skills is going to help you a lot as well. So I'll give you an example. We are always adding new frameworks and new capabilities and XJS is getting more powerful and the AI SDK now that we have skills for those that we're going to preload into vo the model itself is not going to get it stuck as easily because now it has more resources to like figure out how to solve that problem. Another thing that I've done it actually used it for this project. So there's a lot of subtleties about this this 3D thing that I didn't know anything about 3D. So whenever I would get stuck, I would ask other models. Um I think it was something about um the way that and kudos to the um awesome soul the the the gentleman that uh open sourced the 3D. So I got it from Sketch Fab and he didn't design this for creating a game or anything like that. So all of the pieces were stuck together. It was almost like you had 3D printed it and the pieces were stuck together with the board. And so I obviously I want that sweet animation that when the model decides it moves the piece, right? Um and so I had to ask a lot of questions to other models about, hey, teach me what's going on with this 3D thing. How do I how do I reason about it? And then I would copy what another model tells me and I would toss it into Vzero. So, uh, another thing that you can do when you get stuck is you you she she can't see it here because it's only for me, but there's a debug button. And what the debug button says, I asked Bzero, "Hey, give me debugging tools so that I can visualize the mesh of the 3D model. I can visualize, I can turn the textures on and off." And so the the AI itself can help itself and can give you tools to debug problems, which is kind of meta, but try it. Try it and it's going to work well for you.

Claire Vo: Okay. So, you you ask an expert, which is another model. I mean, find out the right question to ask. Well, this has been very fun. Thank you for showing us a little bit behind the curtain of how you use Vzero, all the new stuff, some of the ways you use it in your personal life and fun projects. We love to see it. So, you have this new VZ. You have this room full of people. What do you want from them? What What can they do for you?

Guillermo Rauch: I mean, get busy shipping. So, try it out. Uh give us feedback. Uh we will fix it as very very fast because we're going to be dog eating our own dog food. Uh and yeah share the things that you built uh with Vzero.

Claire Vo: Oh we have a question back here. Oh I love it.

Audience Member: So I had a question. Thank you for sharing like the feedback process how you loop um in terms of like from ideation to like production like during that process do you do any like product market fit? How do you validate that what you're trying to build is actually like useful or um impactful for like your ecosystem? Yeah, super hot off the presses new sort of mental model that we've been using internally. There's a customer zero and a customer one.

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, super hot off the presses new sort of mental model that we've been using internally. There's a customer zero and a customer one. Customer zero, we like to to be ourselves. We uh it's like the Rick Rubin, the confidence in our ability to know what's good, whatever. Like we like our taste. We we've been around the block for a while. We want we have ideas of products that we would like to see out there in the in the universe. Uh but customer one is also really important like a closed design partner Claire Vo.

Claire Vo: Oh

Guillermo Rauch: Claire Vzero and our Claire and our our CPO are constantly texting.

Claire Vo: We're on a text chain.

Guillermo Rauch: She she she texts bug reports. She texts things she needs. So having that group of design partners, enterprise companies, individuals, community members, people that slide into my XVMs. So it's you always wanted that pressure test of of the world. And for skills it was that you know people telling us hey like why does Opus 4.5 kind of know the latest XJS but not really and how can we embed your best practices. So that was kind of like in in our backlog like we were thinking about that problem for a while but then it also became really concrete. We were like okay how would we go about distributing and discovering the skills and so sort of the idea became very complete and that's where a tool like Vzero really helps you because when you want to extract it out of your mind you can just vero it and so pretty much what you see today it started with a like four or five vzero prompts in a conversation with our VP of design who then took it way further and made it actually good and um and uh our our CTO and our and our product leader. So you mentioned about BMs, is there a possibility of having React Native in Visero?

Audience Member: So you mentioned about BMs, is there a possibility of having React Native in Visero?

Guillermo Rauch: So what you saw today is if you if you if you pee the covers of how Vero is built is built on a bunch of Verscell infrastructure that you also all have access to the the virtual machine that we use to run that Nex.js preview is called sandbox. So the Verscell sandbox and it's a very powerful computer. In fact, what's actually making agents really capable is not that they're perfect, is that they have a computer at their disposal in order to solve every any problem. So, the reason we showed you a glimpse of how we work internally with DZ. The reason DZero is so good at data analysis is that it has a computer where it can do research, it can write Python code, it can run it, it can make a look up to Snowflake, it can search the web, it can come back, it can fix it. It's like it's like a four or five minute process, right? And so these computers are very powerful general purpose computers. You could imagine them running React Native. You could imagine them writing other programming languages. They can obviously already write Python and run it. And so the sky's is the limit from that perspective.

Claire Vo: I have a question on that topic. Is there going to be a point at which Vzero is going to help you build those agents?

Guillermo Rauch: Oh, absolutely. So the main the main idea of this chess thing, it's cute, but I mentioned the word workflow. So it's actually tricky for me to say this program is going to run forever in the presence of network or compute failures. So in fact like uh you know we're doing this live and just randomly came up with the idea. The reason I had confidence the demo was going to work is that if an LLM provider is down or a function call dies or times out or whatever the workflow engine of our cell will say we're doing live. We're going to try it again and we're going to try it again and we're going to try it again. What we're going to help you do is create those kind of workflows from within v 0ero. A lot of agents need that kind of reliability. For example, you send a message from Slack and you say at player GBT go and spec out this PRD for me.

Claire Vo: Yeah, it's called at chatp. It is running on workflows and

Guillermo Rauch: yes, we didn't rehearse this.

Claire Vo: Yeah. So we we do have we do have uh I I feel the pain on on agents where um workflows are really helpful because they give you durable overtime execution. You can retry things, things can fail, you can do them sequentially, you can do all sorts of things. And so I do think the ability for you to build that on the back end is very helpful for even for applications that don't have the same kind of UI that you would have it

Guillermo Rauch: because some are some are very visual and some are going to be more headless like some are going to be background agents that are doing work for you. In fact, the world is excited about the artists formerly known as Cladbot. Yeah.

Claire Vo: Moldbot. I don't know what moldbot means, by the way.

Guillermo Rauch: Well, uh, crustaceians, this is how you know you have kids in like elementary schools. crustaceians like lose their shell so they mold.

Claire Vo: Moles are right.

Guillermo Rauch: It's like a snake.

Claire Vo: Yeah, got it.

Guillermo Rauch: And then emerge to steal your bank account. But so that's a beautiful example of the background thing, right? Because you text it and it does a bunch of stuff for you and then it responds. So that that's the kind of thing that we want you to be able to build with Vzero where it's going to use workflows. It might use sandbox and it might be more I think moldbot is like super general. It can do anything and even hack your computer but uh I I I expect a lot of really cool agents to to work that way like you just WhatsApp them and we'll we'll help you build those with Vzero and

Claire Vo: and the last thing I actually deployed on Versell was my live moltbot conversation. If you want to see

Guillermo Rauch: what it is terminal

Claire Vo: I well I I shut the computer and walked away. I did not enjoy my it was an interesting experience. You can smash that subscribe button if you want to watch it. But I did I did deploy to Verscell a terminal view of my conversation with Mulbot. So you can go it's like it's called

Guillermo Rauch: confessions.

Claire Vo: Yeah. Oh that's exactly what it is. Yeah. It's real scary app.

Audience Member: Great. Maybe one more question.

Vzero Ambassador: Oh wow. What an honor. First of all, thank you so much uh for hosting the event. Thank you so much for the new VZero. I I ship a lot with Vzero. My co-founder is using Cursor and now we have like a mutual compatibility.

Claire Vo: We're so back.

Vzero Ambassador: Love it. There you go. Um and so I wanted to um again I'm also a Vzero ambassador. There we go. Let's go. Um I wanted to ask two questions. number one um a little bit different but when do you think so VZero has really democratized the ability to go from prompt to UI UI that works uh and UI that satisfies like the the the prompt that the user created when do you think that paradigm is going to happen within consumer in Gen UI uh I see that your team has been playing with a bunch of different libraries different ways to create that uh when do you think that switch is happening and then the second question when can I uh write a prompt and then deploy to the app store.

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. So on the on the first question, sometimes you're going to want like a flash v0ero. So we're playing with ideas around generative UI where an agent might decide to render something and think of it as like spontaneously creating an a the UI code and then rendering it right away. You're not actually creating a code and an application and deploying it. You just want to make it happen. So we're doing a lot of research on like what would that look like? So it's another tool that we can give agents on the app store question you've seen some of the stuff that we've been doing with vzero iOS app react native skills a long held dream of ours has been to really democratize pushing to the apps are like you would push to the web and everything here is like sort of using that same those same ingredients uh reactbased deployment platform just deploy with one press of a button and whatnot. So, uh, yeah, don't want to promise any timelines, but, uh, definitely something we want to do.

Claire Vo: Thank you. Thanks everybody. Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this show, please like and subscribe here on YouTube, or even better, leave us a comment with your thoughts. You can also find this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Please consider leaving us a rating and review, which will help others find the show. You can see all our episodes and learn more about the show at howiaipod.com. See you next time.