历史的韧性:从“死亡地面”概念透视战争中的国家意志与民族认同 Dwarkesh Patel 2024-04-06

俄罗斯的二战韧性:“死亡地面”下的国家意志

俄罗斯在二战中为何能承受数千万士兵的损失,国家却未崩溃,反而能生产出先进坦克?这引发了关于中央计划经济有效性、斯大林高压统治下政府为何未倒台等诸多谜团。与此相对,希特勒虽也残暴,但其统治的帝国内部并未出现类似沙皇俄国在一战中的瓦解。问题的核心在于,在极端压力下,一个国家或民族是否被推至了“死亡地面”。 Samuel Griffith 对孙子兵法的翻译引入了“死亡地面”这一概念:当敌人将你逼入绝境,你别无选择,只能殊死搏斗,即便胜算渺茫,这是唯一的生存之道。

Original English

why was Russia so robust against not

initially but eventually so robust

against pushing back against the Germans

despite losing tens of millions of

soldiers the government doesn't collapse

like the Zars did in World War I and not

only that but a communist country is

able to produce these really Advanced

tanks in large and reliable numbers

there's so many Mysteries are like why

central planning worked why the

government didn't collapse despite the

fact that Stalin you know killed all so

many people he would have been hated

right so ah but Hitler killed more and

was more hated uh what you're thinking

about is what did the Russians do I'm

going to flip it what do the Germans do

a useful concept comes from the Samuel

Griffith translation of sunzo which

talks about death ground what's death

ground it's when your enemy puts you on

death ground which means they're going

to kill you and therefore you have no

choice but to fight because if you don't

fight you're dead and even if you fight

your odds are poor but at least that's

the only way you're going to get out

乌克兰的抵抗与民族认同的锻造

乌克兰人民在二战初期曾因斯大林强加的饥荒而对德国入侵者抱有复杂态度,认为“再糟糕也比不过过去的苦难”。然而,纳粹的暴行——强迫乌克兰人挖掘万人坑——彻底改变了他们的看法,将德国变成了必须抵抗的敌人。这种因外部极端压迫而激发的强大反抗力量,不仅体现在俄罗斯身上,也正被乌克兰经历。回溯至2014年克里米亚危机前,腐败的乌克兰政府使民众在“乌克兰化”与“俄罗斯化”之间摇摆不定。但时至今日,俄罗斯军队对东部地区民众的毁灭性打击,迫使乌克兰人认识到与俄罗斯“共存”的可能性已不复存在。讽刺的是,弗拉基米尔·普京的行动正在无意中锻造出一个前所未有的、坚定的乌克兰民族认同,正如历史上美国独立战争促成了北美十三殖民地的联合国家认同。

Original English

the

ukrainians initially welcomed the

Germans why because Stalin and friends

had imposed the uh terrible Famine of

the early

1930s on them and they couldn't imagine

that anything would be worse than that

until they met Nazis who then had them

dig their own Mass Graves the ukrainians

rethought that whole thing and if you do

this to people you will conjure a

formidable enemy so that's what happened

to Russia you can see it happening to

Ukraine now before your eyes go back uh

before the invasion of Crimea in 2014

you got Ukraine which has very corrupt

government and people were sixes and

sevens about whether they want to do

Ukrainian things or Russian things okay

fast forward to now where you have

Russians blowing away the people who

were most loyal to them in the eastern

part of the country who didn't leave

their apartment buildings are being

leveled by Russians ukrainians think aha

you know this idea that we can coexist

with these people is over and and our

irony is Putin's forging Ukrainian

national identity and Wars often do this

in the United States uh we start out

with our 13 colonies and they're all

very different after the Revolutionary

War that starts forging a national

identity and by the time you get to the

end of the Civil War where you have

northern armies at least those people

have been all over the country they have

a real sense of nature

比较战争策略:“无条件投降”与文化驱动的士气

美国在二战及内战中奉行的“无条件投降”策略,与轴心国在乌克兰或中国提出的极端政策目标存在本质区别——美国并未进行种族灭绝。那么,为何美国的策略未导致其对手国家(如德国、日本)出现与俄国在二战初期类似的崩溃?关键在于,美国并未将对手国的民众置于“死亡地面”。相反,在许多情况下,是对手国的领导层(如东条英机)将自身推入了“职业生涯的死亡地面”,因为任何退让都意味着政治生命的终结,甚至可能面临处决。尽管如此,日本民众最终并未感受到“死亡地面”的绝望,其社会结构因战争长期消耗而濒临破碎。美国也从未像俄罗斯屠杀波兰人那样,大规模屠杀德国平民。然而,1945年东京经历的毁灭性火烧(一晚造成8.4万人死亡)等惨剧,为何未能使日本人陷入“死亡地面”的绝境?

Original English

by the end of that one it's interesting

because the strategy we pursued with

Germany and Japan was unconditional

surrender now do you think of that is

different than obviously we didn't

commit genocide or anything but you

think that is different than the sort of

um total unlimited policy objectives

that for example Germany had in Ukraine

or Japan had in China or we also pursued

unconditional surrender against the

south in the Civil War right so how do

you think about because that's also

something where your back is up against

the wall why did that not result in the

same kind of morale because because the

United States did not put the people of

these countries on death ground the

leadership had self- put themselves on

death ground by where the basically the

problem for Tojo hiedi is if he backs

down on anything he's out of office and

then he doesn't know what happens after

that so he personally is on Career death

ground and possibly he thinks uh well we

would we we were planning to that he

would get executed at the end of the war

but the Japanese people eventually

figured out that they weren't on J death

ground and in fact the Japanese people

were so exhausted by the whole thing

that they the society shattered um but

the United States was never uh going to

put the German people start massacring

them in the way that the Russians

massacred the poles when they moved in

the Germans massacred the poles how do

you wind up with eight or nine million

polish deaths in World War II think

about that's a large number it's because

they're massing they're being massed but

there was a fire bombing you know Tokyo

and Dron and Berlin I think it was in

your book that 84,000 people died in

that one night fire bombing in Tokyo

it's terrible why did that not make them

put them in the mind frame of a sort of

total uh death ground well a I don't

know but B Japan had been at War since

日本的文化、战争疲惫与天皇的角色

日本的战争状态自1931年起就已持续,其军队在中国战场消耗巨大。在二战后期,日本国内已承受了长期战争的重压,经济产值远低于美国,且面临严峻的粮食和资源短缺,社会几近崩溃。尽管如此,日本军队却以极高的士气闻名,拒绝投降。这背后深层原因是日本独特的文化——强调对“内团体”(ingroups)的忠诚与义务,而非西方强调的“自由”和“权利”。士兵们在战场上并非考虑战略,而是对行动单位的成功负有义务。一旦战败,他们将为自己、家庭乃至所属团体带来耻辱,投降意味着彻底的失败。

这种文化背景也体现在内部管理上:日本指挥官曾命令士兵处决受伤同袍,以避免“残疾士兵”回国带来的耻辱。在战争的最后关头,裕仁天皇(Emperor Hirohito)介入,打破了内阁的僵局。此前,他因缺乏相关专业知识(其兴趣在于研究后院的鱼类)而未干预日本对外扩张的决策。然而,当面临原子弹威胁时,他挺身而出,避免了可能导致的最大规模的种族清洗。

Original English

1931 in China uh they had been sending

large armies this

isn't like recent us Wars the

counterinsurgencies in Iraq and

Afghanistan this is their sending

hundreds of of thousands of troops to

occupy Manchuria the Chinese don't give

up it goes on and on and on so by the

time you're getting to 1945 it's a long

time also they had committed atrocities

in China and they knew all about it and

the atrocities got even better when

there were wounded Japanese soldiers

their

commanders ordered their fellow soldiers

to execute them because they didn't want

cripples going home they couldn't deal

with them there and so rather than have

the pick them up they executed them in

place you can you imagine how Japanese

soldiers felt about this how do we

explain the high morale the famously

High morale of the Japanese military

where they would refuse to surrender

even after given orders by their

superiors despite knowing about um these

things that you were talking about uh

it's true um it's because it's a

different culture so in Japanese culture

you belong to ingroups or out groups so

the biggest ingroup the Japanese belong

to was Japanese people and everybody

else but within Japan you come from a

province a locality Etc you go school

education various places you belong to a

job wherever you have and there are

various units within your job and you

owe loyalty it's obligations in the west

it's all about Liberties and my rights

in the East it's about obligations to

other people and so you owe obligations

to all of these uh

organizations and when they soldiers are

thinking about war they're not thinking

about Grant strategy they're thinking

about operational success so the moment

you as a soldier start losing a battle

instead of in the west where you can

Retreat you can surrender and it's not

dishonorable because you're going to

live to fight another day in Japan

you're a failure and therefore if you go

come home back as a failed Soldier you

bring dishonor to yourself your family

uh your locality anyone you are

associated with so that's why it is so

difficult to for them to surrender

however by the time you get to the end

of the war they are so exhausted think

about it their economy is I don't know I

can't remember the statistics exactly

something like a tenth of our economy

they have something like a 13th of our I

can't remember was coal or steel

production and they don't have any um

local oil production uh they're

importers of food and they're not

getting that food so by the time you get

to 45 they're

exhausted and it's um it's a shattering

that occurs and um finally at the very

end you have emperor hero who knew full

well earlier if he disagreed and he

didn't disagree for a long time that he

would be assassinated or be proclaimed

deranged and he had a perfectly good

underage son to be used as a figure head

he knew that he couldn't do much about

it uh at the very end when he decided he

was about to get

nuked that's when he intervenes to break

the deadlock and at the cabinet meetings

and there are a variety of people at the

very top who realizes it's over could

heroo have intervened earlier I doubt it

日本的扩张主义与中国的民族觉醒

日本曾以为其极度残暴的侵华政策能助其征服“落后”的中国,却未料到正是这种极端暴行,最终促使中国人民团结起来,将日本人视为共同的敌人,从而成为中华民族崛起的强大动力。这种侵略行为最终适得其反。当前,普京在乌克兰的行动也存在类似的讽刺效果,他正在“加冕”泽连斯基,并为乌克兰锻造出一种前所未有的、坚强的国家认同,永不会忘记当下事件。

Original English

let's go back more than five years if he

intervenes um when Japan is

overextending in China is there any

chance that he could have succeeded I

doubt he uh thought of Japan

overextending in China what expertise

does he have he liked Guppies he likes

studying fish in his

backyard he has no expertise and then of

course there's the Hubers of it all that

we're going to dominate this place and

they look at the Chinese as an

absolutely feckless backward place

that's had all these warlord things

going on and it doesn't Dawn on them

that by their extreme brutality in China

the Chinese finally get it going uh

we're not the problem the Japanese are

the problem and it is uh what the

Japanese do that superlu China and is

the great impetus to n nation building

you can see parallels with Hitler doing

the same thing in Russia and and also

right now um uh Putin's busy canonizing

uh zalinski and uh creating a real

Nation out of Ukraine that's never going

to forget these ongoing events yeah well

反事实设想:日本联合国民党对抗共产主义的可能

从您著作中受到的一个深刻且略带悲剧色彩的启示是,日本本可以采取一种“大陆强权”的战略思维,联合中国的国民党,共同对抗俄国的共产主义势力。这种三线作战(德国、国民党、日本)的策略,或许能阻止共产主义在中国和俄罗斯的崛起。考虑到共产主义在两国造成的巨大生命损失,若能实现这一目标,将挽救无数生命。然而,日本最终选择了与德国结盟,这一决策在如今看来,若采取了另一条路径,例如与国民党合作,则可能意味着希特勒的永恒统治,并可能导致欧洲发生历史上最浩大的种族清洗。

Original English

what I learned from your book that I

thought was really interesting and also

tragic because of the counterfactual was

one of the strategies you suggested what

could have been that Japan could have if

it thought like a continental power it

could have allied with the Nationalist

to beat the Communist in Russia maybe

waged almost a three- front war with

Germany the Nationalist and Japan beat

the Communist and prevented the

Communists from taking hold in China and

given the consequences of Communism in

Russia and China and how many lives

could have been saved if you know I

guess Hitler was beaten and the

Communists are beaten that Japanese

choice just seems so tragic let's say

they do it uh that means Hitler forever

and that means if you're anything but a

nice

Aran uh your days are numbered certainly

it would be the have been the most

massive ethnic cleanse ever in

Europe

📌 文中提及的人物和组织

关键字: death-ground wwii-strategy national-identity military-morale historical-analysis