Host: Hi everyone. Uh, welcome to my podcast. Today I have the honor to invite Professor David Spyro to my podcast and we're going to discuss about petro dollar and especially in current environment particularly the US and Iran are having this crazy war. This topic is become more and more relevant. Professor, thank you for joining my show.

David Spiro: Thank you.

Host: So uh I actually read through your book and I really enjoy reading it. I think like you write a very important uh pieces. You kind of describe how US government secretly recycled the petro dollar to finance American debt in the 1970s. Right now as we watch the straightup hormones crisis unfold in real time. How does this moment compare to the oil shocks you studied at that time? you know um the recycling I think was one of the first signs that US hijgemony was becoming more exploitative and illiberal

David Spiro: that it was not simply for the good of all the globe but was more you know the US was using its power not simply to enforce a rules-based system but for its own particular interests um but still it was a rules-based system and it was a good system for most of the open economies. Um, and now what we see is uh completely self-interested uh US foreign policy. So it's gone from being mildly exploitative to being extraordinarily illiberal and uh self-interested to the detriment of the globe. Mhm.

David Spiro: Um to that extent it's you know one sees the beginnings of of uh what we call exploitative or malign hegemony in the 70s to you know out of control now um I'm not to me what's interesting is that in the 70s and 80s and 90s political economists were debating what will happen as US hijgemony declines as it's challenged We thought in the 90s it would be challenged by Japan and then we understood it would be China challenged by China. Um you know there was a debate over whether institutions could bring about cooperation or whether it depended on US power but nobody predicted that some crazy jerk would become president and and act so irrationally. And yeah, and so, you know, none of what we were debating really is relevant today. And nobody predicted this. It's just it's like some crazy guy came along and uh and did you know all of our our theories are out the window almost.

Host: So at that time I remember you vividly right the Saudis when they are really putting the money back into the US finance system, they don't want anybody to learn about it. Like do you know what's the rational behind that? like why wouldn't wouldn't they want this to be public information?

David Spiro: They didn't want anyone to know at all where their money was going. Um and they tried to keep it secret. And the funny thing is that the um the press kept asking filing uh FOYA uh uh requests, you know, Freedom of Information Act requests. And Ronald Reagan when he was president actually certified that it was in the national interest to keep this secret. Um about 15 maybe just 10 years ago uh the United States was in a slight dispute with Saudi Arabia and uh the Saudis said um that you know if the United States kept this dispute going that the Saudis might um start selling some of their Treasury bills. Okay. and uh which was kind of a silly thing for somebody to say. And by some coincidence uh a week later, a reporter at Reuters was granted the data from Saudi Arabian investments in the United States. In other words, when the Saudis made that threat, the US all of the sudden said, "Ah, it's really we don't care about the secrecy anymore." And they granted the foyer request to Reuters.

Host: So that acts like a revenge, right? like that just like you did that I just show my hand

David Spiro: right it was I don't think most people noticed what was going on but I think it was a very clear signal I do think it's very interesting um to understand the concept of bipolarity in the Middle East region and I do think a lot of what we see today um in terms of Iranian foreign policy and Saudi foreign policy has to do with the competition between the two regional powers but I'm not sure that you can explain ei policy in in in that framework.

Host: So do you think the petro dollar system is a prerequisite or is a must-have to maintain the current US hijgemony over the world?

David Spiro: not petro dollars but I you know oil is priced in dollars and a lot of it is transacted in dollars and that's true of much of the uh commodities in the world metals markets and agriculture and so on the role of the dollar is very important and you know what I think my book showed uh 25 years ago was the importance of the dollar to US policy makers.

David Spiro: Both Republicans and Democratic administrations went to great lengths to um keep oil priced in dollars. Yeah. And uh that was very important to them. So, you know, I for instance, now when we wanted to give um levy sanctions on on Russia, you know, the ability of the United States to cut off their access to Swift, which is the clearing house for dollars payments. Yeah, that was huge. That's a an enormous capability um to punish a foreign power. And if the dollar loses its role, we lose that capability. Yeah. So, you know, that was a an enormous tool in our foreign policy belt. Why an administration would purposefully destroy that capability is beyond me. It's really incomprehensible

Host: because that power is like the most effective when you threat to use it but never use it. When you really actually use it, other country will start to think about alternatives. They say we cannot be threatened by this in the future. you know like China and other like strong power friends uh they may start to think about uh alternative method

David Spiro: they have you know China has really shifted quite rapidly um as recently as five years ago you would never hear China talking about being a res international reserve currency and then they started to discuss becoming a regional power yeah not international just regional and Now there you know now the constraints are off and I think the United States has given China the incentive to become a international reserve currency which it

Host: it's just crazy like why would US do that like why would Trump start this war to really benefit uh they claim it's the biggest competitor in the world and you basically given them the opportunity to uh show who's adult in the room right

David Spiro: yeah yeah you really have I mean you know Um, I think although what China's has done is not necessarily in the United States interest, it very closely follows US history. Um, China is basically adopting the the economic nationalism of Alexander Hamilton. Yeah. you know, who was our first Treasury of the Secretary, wrote the report on manufacturers in 1780 something and uh

David Spiro: you know, and he wrote that um that tariffs were tariffs were necessary. Free trade was the was very good for rich and powerful countries like Great Britain. Yeah. Yeah, but until the the United States, which was a third world power in third world country in the 18th century, we needed infant industry protection. And essentially what China has done is protect its industries by affecting its exchange rate and the savings rate. Yeah. Um you know, buying treasury bills to to maintain a uh a balance of trade to its advantage. Um, so you know, I think it what it's done is very understandable, but of course it's and I I honestly think it's inevitable. I don't think the US can do much to prevent it. But the question is how are we going to speed it up? Are we going to make it

Host: that's the big question. I think like Biden Obama policy, they just try to contain China. They do not want to have a major confrontation with China. Yeah, I think um honestly no US president has ever been criticized for China bashing.

David Spiro: Yeah. Know, you can say all the stupid things you want about China and nobody's going to criticize you. So during Trump's first term when he imposed all of these tariffs, um you know, it wasn't something that the Democrats were opposed to. um of the tariffs on China, Biden kept like 37 billion dollars. He didn't he didn't get he could have switched it off immediately. Um the tariffs on steel and aluminum that was started under Obama. The uh dispute with the WTO was brought under Obama. So, a lot of the things in ter in Trump's first term, the guy was, you know, he said things that were abrasive and stupid and he unnecessarily alienated people, but his actual policies, they weren't really all that substantially different from what the Democrats had done.

Host: Yeah. Now, they're different. Yeah. Now it has gone beyond just him saying things that are dumb to doing things that are are extraordinarily destructive

Host: especially last year like why would you raise tariff against all your allied countries like Great Britain uh Europe like EU, Japan, Korean those are all our allied countries. Why would you do that? Like

David Spiro: I honestly, you know, he's he's from all I can figure out, he seems to think that if I sell you something, I'm taking advantage of you. Yeah. And if I buy something from you, you're taking advantage of me. Yeah. I don't It's like the I mean, even the French mercantalist didn't have that poor understanding of foreign trade.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: I don't I really don't understand it. I think the problem is like he had really bad advisors, you know, like the the Peter uh Navaro. Elon Musk call him Peter Rardo, you know, like he gave him really bad advice like that stupid equation. People are laughing at those uh tariff rates like basically it's a it's a linear equation. You can back calculate how they get to that rate. They got to the rate simply by looking at you know who had a um unfavorable balance of trade.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And uh I mean it was wrong on a lot of levels. We all know what comparative advantage does for uh economies. Yeah. But I think it was wrong on a huge level which is that the United States excels at selling financial assets. We have a comparative advantage. We've gone from being an agricultural economy to a manufacturing economy to a service economy to a finance economy and information and finance. And what we are really good at selling is things like you know insurance policies or um uh you know derivatives that assess risk and things like that. And our markets are the best in the world at doing that sort of thing.

David Spiro: So that means that we're going to be running a capital account deficit. Yeah. In other words, we're selling financial assets. And that is the it's an accounting identity. It's not a theory. The accounting identity is that if you run a capital account deficit, you have to run a trade account deficit.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Right. When you run a trade surplus, you get money into your economy. When you run a trade deficit, you get money out of your economy. But when you get money out of your economy, you have to run a trade deficit. There's no choice.

Host: Yeah. You can now get away from that.

David Spiro: So when you try to close that deficit, what you're in effect doing is preventing the export of what we're really good at, of what our comparative advantage is. So I think that by destroying this export of finance financial instruments, you know, what people don't understand is that Trump has really destroyed our comparative advantage. Yeah. And if we have a balance of trade of goods and services, it it is going to be bad for America because it means we're not exporting where we have a comparative advantage.

Host: Also the education like US has the best education system. We have like so many great universities and colleges. We attract the best talent from all over the world. They pay the full tuition. They come over here, study, and they consume. They buy stuff and then the the the best of them will stay here like work here, start a company and grow the economy. Now we just like say, "Oh, we're going to kick everybody out. We're going to limit the visa." Like some country they couldn't even apply a visa to get into US. We cancel people people's visa randomly without any uh reason. Now a lot of like really talented students they don't choose US as their number one selection. They may go to Europe, they may go to Singapore, other countries for education. And I think we are really facing a a severe problem in the education system like we wouldn't feel that immediately but like as this is a long-term competitive advantage like gone just for no reasons.

David Spiro: Yeah. I mean, you know, the United States, again, this is not it's it's a a sickness of populism that you uh tend to scapegoat foreigners.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And you tend to blame people who were who look different or minorities. And the United States has a long history of that. You know, the Chinese Exclusion Act was in 1870. Yeah. That's 150 years ago. Yeah. We started to get pissed off at foreigners for no reason. You know, there was no reason to do that.

David Spiro: And then we've scapegoed um Jews, scapegoated uh Latinos, Mexicans. In the 1950s, there was something called Operation under President Eisenhower. He he had an attorney general who was out of control. And um he started deporting people with Mexican backgrounds from Texas, including US citizens.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Um so, you know, this idea of scapegoating Mexicans or scapegoating foreigners, it's not new.

Host: Long tradition,

David Spiro: you know, it's it's happened in in the United States. There's a long tradition of it in Europe. You know, probably it's beyond the scope of our conversation today. But when you see the sort of uh income inequality that resulted from the policies of Reagan in the 1980s um then what you see is 30 40 years later the rise of populism. Yeah.

Host: And some sort of scapegoating like that. Yeah.

David Spiro: And then and that you know is destructive. It leads to the it's it's leading as you say to the um to to crippling our education system.

Host: So So what do you think about the current war like with Iran? Do you think this war will actually significantly weaken the dollar the petro dollar status and you know like Iran is already talking about accepting Bitcoin and Chinese UN for uh for the toll on all the oil ship oil tanks across the uh across uh straight of Horus. What do you think about that?

David Spiro: You know, this is another one of these incomprehensible things where we started a war and if we're lucky, uh, you know, we started a war where the straight of Hormuz was open and if we're lucky, we're going to use the end of the war to negotiate whether we can pay $2 million a ship to uh to pass through the straight of war moves. It's like, you know, we lost this war. We lost it in the worst way.

Host: So do do you think like the current situation is going to hold because there's a two week ceasefire but I saw like on the news uh there's still exchange of rockets between uh Israel and Hzbollah and Iranian government is not very happy about it and also I saw the news there's a lot of US aircraft kind of moving towards Iran. So if you just track the flow of soldiers and equipment apparently we are planning to do some kind of ground invasion at certain point. What do you think like

David Spiro: you know Iran's funding of uh of groups that are causing instability such as Hezbollah in Iran in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza. Um it is in the US interest to put an end to that and uh I do think it would be reasonable to demand of Iran that they you know that they quiet down their foreign policy so that it's not so destructive to world stability. Mhm. Um so in the in so far as um Iran thinks the ceasefire doesn't apply to them uh moving arms to Hezbollah or firing missiles. I think it's valid that Israel and the US respond to those missile attacks.

Host: Mhm. So you mentioned like uh the arrangement between US and Saudi about the petro dollar system, you know, like petro dollar recycling. That program ends a few years ago. Is that the case? Like uh I I can't remember exact timeline you were talking about.

David Spiro: You know, I I really thought that um in general the Saudis had agreed to to put their funds in US treasuries because they got a a security guarantee from the United States. I was never able to prove that. I never found a smoking gun.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: I never, you know, found an agreement that we had promised them a security agreement. But it that would probably explain the war in Iraq better than anything else. Yeah. Because Kuwait was never really a you know Kuwait was the only government in the Gulf that had good relations with the Soviet Union. They were not a huge friend of the United States.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: You know why we needed to bail out a feudal desert monarchy in Kuwait? It didn't make sense to to launch an entire war for that. But to the extent that we needed to protect Saudi Arabia, then the war does start to to make a little more sense.

Host: Got it. So basically, it's a implied security guarantee, right? Like they probably didn't never have anything on the paper. It's a verbal agreement.

David Spiro: I think so, but I, you know, really it's speculation. I've had I've had a good uh 40 years to try to prove it and I never have been able to. So given the current situation, you know, uh apparently the US uh base in Saudi and other uh GCC countries has been destroyed by Iranians uh rocket. What do you think like those Saudi um loyal like those uh like NBS? Do you think he still want to put money back into US system like or he may have a second thought?

David Spiro: Well, you got to wonder what they've been spending billions of dollars on. Yeah. It's I mean, it seemed like a waste of money at the time and uh seems like a waste of money now.

Host: Yeah. So, so you think like they may think twice about like reinvesting all those pedro dollars back into the US financial system?

David Spiro: No. No, I don't. Um I think, you know, it's not a matter of investing in the system anymore. It's they're not running such a trade surplus. I mean they've they're buying so many weapons and um countries like the UAE have you know become resorts and uh

David Spiro: yeah you know so um the United States in terms of funding its budget deficit it offered the same agreement to Japan yeah in the 1990s this add-on secret add-on agreement um and uh and now it's doing it with and then it did it with China and you know now it's not clear where it's going to go next. Um but uh but it it's it hasn't depended on petro dollars for uh for many many years.

Host: So you're just saying like petro dollar is no longer a major factor in in financing the current US empire. Is that what you think?

David Spiro: Right. But I do think that the fact that oil is priced in dollars is very important.

Host: Mhm. Um, and it's also symbolic in a way because you know the price of wheat, although there's no official wheat market, the price of wheat is in dollars, the price of copper is in dollars, all of those things, you know, when when people start taking Chinese currency for oil, that's going to really fall apart.

Host: Yeah, I saw like uh Iran and also uh India are doing that like particularly when they are trading with Russia like they're using Chinese UN to do that. So that that may be already starting some of the regional powers.

David Spiro: Well, we kind of started that when we you know put sanctions on Russia.

Host: So you actually think that the the sanction on Russia has a bigger impact on the petro dollar or even like the the dollar reserve currencies?

David Spiro: Um sure. because you know the that that was the point at which the the Russians weren't allowed to touch dollars. Um so they had to sell their oil using something else.

Host: I also see like the Chinese central government, Chinese central bank is like hoarding gold. They're buying a lot of gold in their reserve like uh currency, you know, like they they just put it in their uh safe. Is that right?

David Spiro: Yeah. I haven't seen that. You know, I have to say, um, gold is a rock, you know. I mean, it's never been a good refuge. Um, when we lived under a gold standard, uh, the major producers of gold were South Africa and the Soviet Union, the two pariah states.

David Spiro: Um and now I think you know the price of gold is determined more by what hedge funds you know what the rumor of George Soros's next move is going to be rather than uh as a refuge a risk risk refuge. So I just think um you know gold is is a speculative market and it's not a very good uh not a very good protection from dollar from the degrading of of currencies.

Host: Mhm.

David Spiro: Money of course is just a specialized commodity, right? Yeah. Um, instead of bartering, you have a specialized commodity and then you have a relative price between that specialized commodity and either other commodities or uh other other specialized commodities, other monies or other goods like um gold or fine art or whatever. But if I was going to try to protect my assets, I' I'd be buying paintings.

Host: Okay. So uh actually a lot of audience are debating in my community about China's position in this uh US and Iran war. Some camp say that China got hurts most because they're you know China is a major industrial importer of Iranian oil and Gulf oil. You know the supply chain disruption is really devastating for some of the Chinese industries. The camp 2 say that China wins because US got bogged down in Middle East again especially when they were saying oh they want to focus on Asia but now they moving all their troops all their equipment to the Middle East and also the dollar hegemony weakens and China gain by just like doing nothing and just observe and even mediating a ceasefire. Uh which camp are you in like and why?

David Spiro: I'm in a second. I mean, I think that um I think the world works on uh you know, the the world works according to um relative gains. So, in other words, if both the United States and China benefit from something, um as long as China is benefiting much more, uh it's bad for the United States. Whereas if the United States loses um but it loses less than China, that's good for the United States, right?

David Spiro: So um so I think in this case, although the supply chain may have been temporarily disrupted, uh it's not really that bad for China and it's good because it's hurting the US role. Yeah, I do think that, you know, these markets there, they're fairly efficient and um there's enough oil in the world to go around. So, you know, the that the price goes over $100 a barrel, you know, in real terms, that's not a very high price.

Host: Mhm.

David Spiro: Um it's comparable to what oil was in the 1970s. Yeah. So, I don't think it's a huge disruption. It's just a it's a price shock. And um you know eventually the uh if Iran doesn't sell toward the west, it's going to sell toward the east. It's you know doesn't matter that much.

Host: Yeah. So um what do you think about the energy transition because like this uh Iran crisis particularly when those uh oil tank cannot get through the straight off worlds a lot of country are talking about you know uh we need to get rid of this gasoline cars we need to move to EVs and uh renewable energy you know like on that term you know China is a big winner because they manufacture the world's most capacity of those products you know the batteries the EVs needs the uh the equipment to generate electricity power you know that the windmills uh all those things what do you think about that transition like do you think this crisis accelerated that and a lot of country particularly in EU they may think twice about like you know buying natural gas from US or Russia

David Spiro: yeah I mean the um uh the 1979 shock is I think very instructive the price went up because of the Iranian revolution Yeah. And uh it went you know it prices I believe almost always uh overshoot the equilibria.

Host: Mhm.

David Spiro: So if you can think of an equilibrium price of oil based on supply and demand you you'll never see a stable equilibrium. You see a you know a random walk around that equilibrium. And um and when it the price overshot the equilibrium in 1979, there were moves toward conservation that were never reversed. Um you know, there was people drove cars that used less uh fuel and they started to insul in insulate their homes. When you insulate your home against cold or heat, you don't go when the price of oil goes down, you don't go and rip out the insulation, right? Yeah. Continue to conserve uh energy.

Host: Energy. Yeah.

David Spiro: So, I think those things will continue. You know what the the price of solar um or the price of wind, the price of natural gas, those things are always going to be changing. Mhm.

David Spiro: Um and it's amazing to me that major industries make decisions that are really, you know, going to affect them for 30 years on like major investments in plants and capacity for electricity and stuff and they do it, you know, based on what the current price is rather than

Host: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean and it's kind of silly, but

Host: they have that kind of projection, you know, like they just extrapolate the current price to 30 years.

David Spiro: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, the price has gone up and I think that's going to be um probably lower the demand for oil, but you know, I think that's also a good thing for Saudi Arabia. the um you know for oil producers uh to have a moderate uh but steady increase in the price of oil I think is is is a good thing.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Um so you know you don't want to reach the switch point what um an economist named Nordouse called a switch point to a backs stop technology. Mhm. So, you know, you keep you you extract um resources from the ground. This is a an old economist. This is over a hundred years old. This guy named Hotelling wrote an article on extracting natural res exhaustible resources and he compared it to a bond. you know, it these resources, your reserves, they're like bond payments, you know, and how much you get out of the ground depends on what your bond payment is going to be.

David Spiro: And um when the price goes up too sharply, uh then, you know, you're going to start switching to another uh technology. M so when if the price of oil goes up really sharply, we're going to see that there's lower future demand and it's not good for oil exporters.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: You know, so Saudi Arabia h it's really in Saudi the large the countries with large reserves, it's in their interest to uh to see a moderate and steady increase in the price, not sharp prices, not sharp increases.

Host: I currently saw like conflicting reporting on the Saudis stance in this war and sometime some people say oh NBS doesn't want this war they were trying to talk Trump off this and some other reporters say oh NBS secretly texting Trump asking him to finish the thing you know like if you're doing you're going to just like do it all the way otherwise like Iran is going to hold everybody as hostage in the GCC area you know so what do you think about the real Saudi position in this.

David Spiro: You know, I I think what you're talking about is kind of day-to-day tactics. Yeah. Long term, you know, the Saudis Saudis see Iran as a thorn in its side.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: We're in direct conflict, especially in Yemen. Yeah. And you know, I think Iran uh has been much more adventurous and aggressive in its foreign policy Yeah. than it needs to be or than it's in in the interest of its people. I I I think the theocracy um has has been overly aggressive.

Host: Yeah. But I think like right now it's more like IRGC going to control the government. So they're going to probably change to a military government more like that instead of like a Siocracy because the current new leader doesn't have that high level respect in the religion, you know.

David Spiro: Well, the Revolutionary Guard is still theoccratic. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I I'm not willing to predict what's going to happen in Iran. I'm not an expert on Iran, but it's uh

David Spiro: I you know, I don't think I don't think starting a war was helpful for anything.

Host: Yeah. I don't think that pulling out of, you know, most people don't remember Trump pulled out of the agreement that limited um Iranian enrichment of of fuels and

Host: just to put away. Yeah.

David Spiro: You know, if he hadn't pulled out of that agreement, we would probably be in a much better position.

Host: Yeah. We don't we don't need to have this war from the beginning, you know. Do do you think we are standing at a turning point in history? Like some people say this war, this uh Iran war is uh US Afghanistan like like what Afghanistan did to Soviet Union like this Iran war is that for America empire

David Spiro: um just on a small point Afghanistan invited the Soviet Union into its country. Yeah. It was not an invasion.

Host: Okay.

David Spiro: Afghan government and some people are questioning the legitimacy of that leader. But the Afghan prime minister who's who was facing some internal disscent asked the Soviet army to come in and help him. Yeah. That was not you know an invasion. It was an invitation by invitation. Um, you know, I I don't know what war has been rational in the last 50 years. I think most of them have been just incredibly stupid

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: and unnecessary. Um and uh that maybe is the lesson that um no matter how good we think things are going and how peaceful, you know, and and we have writers saying there's been a the victory of liberal democracy and the end of history, uh there's still extraordinary scope for stupidity.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And um uh you know the Iraq war was dumb and unnecessary and didn't achieve anything. The war in Afghanistan, you know, I think we we ended we bombed them a couple of times because of 911 because they because uh you know there were uh groups who had who had organized 911 who were hiding in the mountains.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And and when we bombed them, the Taliban who by the way we had funded to I mean you know as a kind of mischief against the Soviets. Yeah. We had started um sending secret arms and funding to the mujahedin which developed into the Taliban. So there's an American you know invention for you. And then the Taliban, they withdrew from from Kabul. And uh just like you know uh classic um classic guerilla tactics that when the enemy is winning, you withdraw and when they start to weaken, you advance.

David Spiro: And um you know we we were surprised at how easy it was and then started sending troops in. Yeah. Which was a huge mistake. I mean, we we just So, none of these wars have made sense. They haven't had um they haven't had coherent policy objectives or achievable policy objectives and they were all by accident. I think that the United States when the world is running well, we did well to be a global policeman.

Host: Yeah. which means that, you know, um we probably would have been better off going to Ethiopia when they were committing human rights uh violations in Tigra and using our power that way instead of uh

David Spiro: but we didn't, you know, it's um I think everything has just been by mistake.

Host: Okay.

David Spiro: And I don't know why this, you know, the news you you see the newspapers. Yeah. People are still trying to figure out how Trump, who had said, "I'm never going to get into one of these wars." Yeah. And was, you know, starting a new tradition of isolationism in the in the United States. How did he get involved in this war? It's like, you know,

Host: that's uh that's exactly a question I still have. Like I think like a lot of his loyalist to my guy just like, "Oh, we are against the war. Before he was like the president and now all of a sudden they all support the war." I was like, "You guys forget what you guys are voting for?" Uh,

David Spiro: I think they did.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: But, you know, I think the um when you asked whether this represents a kind of change in the nature of international relations. Mhm. What looked like a change to me was was Trump's isolationism. Um, which, you know, was not unreasonable that this these wars are not in our interest. They're not doing us any good.

Host: Yeah. and we're just going to stop intervening all over the place. So, that would have been an interesting change to get sucked into a war like this is kind of still this more of the same all over again.

Host: Yeah. But like you see uh our uh secretary of state uh Marco Rubio came out and say like uh because Israel is going to attack Iran and then we know if Israel does that Iran is going to attack our base. So we did that strike as a preemptive u action. Yeah. Do you think that makes sense?

David Spiro: There's a leader in Israel and the minute he stops going to war, he's going to be arrested for extortion. Yeah. You know, uh, for corruption. He's under he's there's a trial going on right now. And, um,

David Spiro: you know, he's what he has kind of, uh, forced the United States into is is shameful. The United States should have stood up to him a long time ago.

Host: Do you think like there's a crisis you know in the sovereigns in United States because you know a lot of Trump supporter those hardcore MAGA they're against this war they especially said we do not want this we elect Donald Trump tried not to get into this kind of war and that's Trump exactly pulled us into this stupid war and the the the the problem is BB Netanyahu actually tried to persuade uh Bush try to persuade Obama and Biden to do this. Like Tony Blinken came out in an interview and said that like he tried to persuade all the president do that and they all declined. Only Trump get into this. So like do you think like that's a problem with our system? Like we just don't have our solveny like the politician doesn't even listen to the voters.

David Spiro: It's not a problem with our system. Our system is that Congress should approve wars. Yeah. you know our system is that this should never have happened. Yeah. The problem is the violation of our system the violation of our system is leading to these irrational actions and we're Congress is not doing anything about it.

Host: But the thing is like when we say the liberal democracy is about its power to correct any uh bad behavior. If you have a president who didn't follow the rule, they're going to uh invoke the like 25th amendment or like impeach him. just get rid of him from the position. It seems like impossible right now in this Congress. Like I just, you know, I'm very angry and pissed at all the politician. Like they say, "Oh, we're going to do this, but then they did 180 and they're not really listening to voters."

David Spiro: I agree. I agree. You know, I don't uh I I agree with you completely. I don't know. There's been a lot of crazy things that have happened in American politics. Mhm. I don't know that any of them have ever been corrected.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: You know, but we'll we'll see what happens.

Host: Yeah. And uh I don't know like if you follow the story because like some people think the Epstein files may be a real driver in this like Trump want to start this war to distract people from the Epstein file or the BB Netanyahu and MSAD have some document on the Epstein file that kind of force Trump into this otherwise like it just doesn't explain why he would do such thing. That's not that's a so unpopular like so unpopular with his voters, his own base.

David Spiro: I you know I I can't speculate on that. I um I do think that it's not in the interest of the Israeli public, the people of Israel for them to be initiating all of these aggressive actions. It's really it's not solving anything.

Host: But the crazy thing is like I think the Israel people are actually supporting this war this war. Like all the people You see the public polling like they are oh go for it and they're pissed like we have a cease file which is crazy.

David Spiro: Yeah they they do and what they see is Iran funding Hezbollah Yeah I know in Hamas and it's not been good for them but I don't think that you know this indiscriminate bombing or assassinating a foreign leader has done any good.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: I mean they're still in the same mess they were 50 years ago. So, um, you know, I think you have to look at the the policy and assess whether it's been successful in the past.

Host: Mhm.

David Spiro: And why do you keep doing something if it's been unsuccessful in the past? You're it's just getting worse and worse and worse. Um, and you know, why does the United States do it? I have no idea, but I can imagine that uh you know, a president who's who's not very smart um and who makes rash decisions uh but thinks very highly of himself when nobody else does.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Um you know, was told this will be easy. We're going to bomb the hell out of him. The Israelis are going to kill this guy. There's going to be a massive uprising of the people. Yeah. Welcome us with open arms and and overthrow their leadership. And then when it doesn't happen, he starts to get pissed off and you know he's uh we're going to destroy the civilization like that.

Host: That's like a war crime. Literally the war crime definition, right? Like if he really did that.

David Spiro: Yeah, it is. Um so, you know, how did we convince him? I don't think it requires a great conspiracy theory. I think it requires an understanding of um you know that we have a guy who's kind of a bad combination of stupid and mentally ill as our president and uh he's doing things

Host: manipulated. Yeah.

David Spiro: Yeah. He's doing things that are really bad for us and it's bad for our future.

Host: What do you think about this war and all his behavior? like you know he's talking about pulling out of the NATO and he want to alien all our allies what would that do to the dollar reserve currency status do you think like kind of in a downhill there's no way we can preserve it like if say you are the doctor you are the adviser for the president what would you give him like what advice would you give him to kind of stop this madness and then help maintain our reserve currency position

David Spiro: going back to his first term leaders of of the President of the United States from both the parties and in various administrations had consistently complained about Europe not paying its fair share for Yeah. Yeah. And the burden sharing problem was written about constantly. Just nobody was such a jerk about it and insulted people to their face.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Um so, you know, it it wasn't an astounding change in US policy. Mhm. Um, and I don't think anybody expected the US to pull out of NATO. Today I I, you know, I think we've turned into such a unreliable ally. Um, you know, I think Canada is right. Canada, you know, that was um the the speech at Davos was uh I think a that was a gamecher. I mean, I think that uh it really defined the path forward for for Europe and for Canada.

Host: So, how do you think about like the current situation? You know, like our president, he apparently is mentally ill and he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's like tweeting 100 uh tweets on the on the social media, but like the problem I think about the other country leader is like they're not dealing with a serious leader. No, we don't have a serious leader and uh all the people around him wouldn't tell him the truth and they just like yes man. They they just praise him and then sending out those tweets. Oh, we have such a great president and probably the best president in the history and nobody's telling him like what the actual situation is like how do you think we can stop this madness? Like

David Spiro: maybe we should just give him a Nobel Peace Prize and hope he stays in Norway.

Host: Yeah, I think I think this is a blame on No. What if they just gave that Nobel Peace Prize to Japan, right? Like the the the real candidate they gave it to like I don't think she deserved it anyway. She was like calling us to bomb uh Verila and like you call her a Nobel Peace winner. I was like I'm skeptical about that. So you just probably just give it to him already and then that can stop this uh crazy war in Iran.

David Spiro: You know, you when you have a peace prize that's funded by the inventor of dynamite, maybe strange things will happen.

Host: Yeah. So, professor, like, have you been to China?

David Spiro: I've been to um I worked in Hong Kong for a while. Um after uh the handover and uh and I went to Guandong Province just briefly. Mhm.

David Spiro: I haven't spent as much time as I'd like to and I hope that relations get better sometime soon so that somebody will invite me again.

Host: Yeah. So I know like if you give a presentation there or you just like um teach there in some class

David Spiro: you know it um before the there's a very wealthy upper middle class in China and they wanted their kids to go to the Ivy Leagues. Oh. though they were running summer programs where they'd invite professors over to give talks and

Host: Got it.

David Spiro: You know, I think they hoped that their their kids would attract notice and get recommendations and stuff like that.

Host: Okay.

David Spiro: Um how the nice thing about that was it kind of involved me uh you know teaching for an hour a day and then having a paid uh tour guide of educated uh Colombia graduates taking me around uh China. And I that sounded like a lot of fun.

Host: Got it.

David Spiro: Unfortunately, it got cancelled.

Host: Is it because of the current administration's uh visa policy or like

David Spiro: No, it got cancelled because uh you know, why would the parents be sending their kids to try to get into Colombia these days? It's, you know, I don't think that's um going to meet with a lot of approval by the Chinese government. and uh and you know it's probably their kids will have trouble with visas anyway.

Host: Yeah. I think also like uh it's related to the current Chinese economic downturn like a lot of middle class they are also taking a hit in their earnings. So they probably uh want to choose more economical options. I I think like the golden age uh for the student coming to US is probably in the Obama era right like at that time there's so many uh international student come to us and also I think at that time US gave very generous uh OPT policies so you can stay here for three years if you are study uh science related uh majors

David Spiro: well one can only hope it comes back I mean it was uh I think it was very good for Um, you know, when when two countries have close cultural contact, it doesn't always mean that they're going to like each other more.

David Spiro: It can be that like you come to the United States and you see somebody's rude to you and uh and you think, "Oh, this country is what a a horrible group of people." Um, but in the case of uh the Chinese coming, you know, really flooding the United States, I mean, it used for a while you couldn't go in the Metropolitan Museum. There was no space to walk around because of the Chinese war buses. Yeah. Um, I think that was good for the cultural relations between the two countries.

Host: Yeah. And also it's good for the economy because like all this u tourists they're going to spend money they're going to live in a hotel it kind of uh adding more cash flows for the local business and also like you know wealthy people come to us like the poor people they probably just stay at home and choose more economic destination so everyone who can afford a trip to US they typically has a very high uh spending budget you know they're going to bring more money to us. Oh yeah.

David Spiro: Yeah. You know, it seems like there's incredible wealth in China right now. I was, you know, when I walked through the stores in Hong Kong, I was thinking, who is buying this stuff? I can't afford it. And uh and it was the Chinese millionaires.

Host: So, professor, what do you teach in Colombia nowadays? Like, what topic?

David Spiro: I'm teaching international political economy and I've taught that uh since 1987 at Colombia and um uh I also teach some specialized seminars and the one that I've enjoyed for the last about seven or eight years has been a seminar on international and domestic income inequality, the changes in income inequality. And I think that's, you know, part of that was I was curious how we could have possibly elected Trump the first time.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And that's led to my research on in income inequality. Um and uh yeah, I just find it I think it's really the the most important issue of our day. So I'm I'm uh I'm getting more and more interested in that.

Host: So what do you think might be the solution to current income inequality in US? you know like we have a very big gap between the top 1% and and all the you know middle class and uh the poor people like how do we kind of fix that because like populism is a kind of grow from this kind of environment.

David Spiro: Um honestly I think redistributive taxes are going to be a help and I um you know I think that uh the idea of taxing billionaires is a good one. I can't imagine if um you know somebody's income if somebody's wealth goes from $600 billion to $550 billion.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Yeah. I don't think they're going to notice an appreciable difference. Yeah. But the United States would recognize an appreciable difference. We could fund health care and child care and education um by imposing those taxes. So I agree with um Sees and Zuckman who are two students of Pikid. They're French but they're teaching in the United States now. And they advised uh uh Warren you know and her last president.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Um and uh you know I think I think the time has come for some redistribution. the uh it it's it's great to live in a country where people can become very wealthy.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: But nobody needs to have more than a billion dollars.

Host: Yeah. I I think like California was doing that and also uh New York City, you know, they elect uh Zoran Mandani like you you live in New York City.

David Spiro: But I don't think he's able to, you know, the mayor of New York has no power to impose those taxes.

Host: Yeah. Exactly.

David Spiro: And I'm not sure that it's constitutional. You know, it has to be done at the state level. Yeah. Um

David Spiro: yeah, they tried to do it in California and people said all these people are going to leave.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And you know, I would think greatbye.

Host: Yeah. So, so that's one thing kind of puzzles me because apparently the left progressive uh branch, they identified a problem and they have the right solution, right? Like increase the tax and tax the rich and redistribute all the income, try to narrow the income gap. why they never win the election like you know uh 2016 Bernie Sanders was very popular but at the end of the day Donald Trump got elected and he's a fake populist you see like when he's in charge all the billionaires all the wealthy donors they got richer and he's not really a populist guy who care about his mega voters so that puzzles me because all the mega voter choose him and then at the end of the day his policy is really hurting all those uh people who voted for him at least for the for the bottom 90 like not talking about the top 1%.

David Spiro: Well, populism is really uh creating an us versus them division in society and it's very anti- elitist and he's been very effective as an anti- elitist. He doesn't he convinces people that they can't trust experts in universities. They can't trust experts in the press.

Host: Yeah. it it's fake. Um, so he's he's very effective at turning people against the elites and he's good at those policies. I don't think the people, you know, who are by and large um poorly educated who support him uh understand that they're how badly they're being hurt. But I, you know, why the left doesn't win more, I'm not an expert on American voting behavior. I don't think that um it's correct to assume that people vote their pocketbooks. That just never seemed to be the case.

Host: So you just think like the people vote is not rational voting. Basically they they choose someone they know that potentially going to hurt them.

David Spiro: Maybe. Or maybe

Host: or maybe they just uh poorly informed. They're just not really well educated.

David Spiro: It could be that or it could be that voting in your strict economic interest is not rational. I mean that's a that's a very cynical way to to define what's rational to you know just do what's best for you personally

Host: but that kind of puzzles me because US is such a wealth nation right like wealthy nation it's probably the most rich nation in the world why do we have this kind of problem like you see like Europe they they do not have they do not elect someone like Donald Trump they may have someone similar to Donald Trump but like you know in US you have the populism movement you basically elect a guy who is not fit to even run your school board like be a school president.

David Spiro: I I don't agree with you though. I think that um first of all there are wealthier country Denmark you know there are social democracies in Northern Europe that are more wealthy on a per capita basis than the United States.

Host: So it's incorrect to say that we're the wealthiest there were the Okay. Yeah. When you say we're the greatest nation in the world by by what standard? I mean

Host: Okay. Yeah. When you say we're the greatest nation in the world by by what standard? I mean

David Spiro: in what in child infant mortality were like a hundth in the world you know I mean it's

Host: I see what you say. Yeah. You were just looking at all the stats but I I mean like you know from my

David Spiro: I'm not sure that we're the greatest. Um and uh and Europe does have a horrible problem with populism. Uh you know Hungary is has a populist leader. Turkey has a populist leader. Poland has a right-wing government. Sweden a social democracy just switched to a conservative government. Holland has the right-wing has u been winning disturbing uh in the polls. France Le Pen the national front is you know keeps coming back. So yeah, there's a massive populism in in Europe.

Host: But do you think that's

Host: do you think that because of labor protections um and the fact that you know countries like Germany are more of a stakeholder economy than a shareholder economy. Uh the effects of income malddistribution have been less severe and the flight of the middle class to China has been slower.

Host: Yeah. Um but on the other hand those labor protections also hurt entrepreneurship.

Host: Yeah. Exactly.

David Spiro: You know I think it would destroy the what's special about America to um to become a little bit too much like Germany.

Host: So do you think we have a fundamental education problem like you know for the particular our public education system? Do you think that that kind of prepare for the populism to rise? Because if you look at the voting behavior, a lot of like uneducated or like people without college degree, they overwhelmingly support Donald Trump.

David Spiro: Yes, I I do think we have that problem. Um, you know, as you probably know very well, uh, education in the United States is funded by property taxes. So, in uh areas where property is worth a lot of money and people are very wealthy, their kids get great schools. Yeah.

David Spiro: Um and that's not true in the so it reinforces the uh the division between the poor and the rich.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And uh you know I think that's a bad thing.

Host: Uh particularly like in the current Trump's administration he has like Robert Jr. RFK Jr. as the house like secretary of house right this is a disaster. this I think I think he he probably caused more harm to American people than any other position in uh in Trump's uh cabinet because he is guiding those uh vaccine policies and he's banning a lot of like vaccine that proven to be very effective. He's basically making the missiles great again. So

Host: yeah. So why do you think American people and also like I think the people who got hurt most by him is the people who supported Trump like the Trump voters at Texas they have a miso outbreak right now. So why do

David Spiro: I think that more dangerous than the health policies are the d the destruction of democratic norms. The idea that you would use the department of justice to go after your enemies. Yeah. And do it openly. I mean, when Nixon did that, he got impeached.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And now it can be done openly.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And that's just a level of corruption that is unacceptable in a democracy. And and and it's that sort of disrespect for the norms that uh form the American identity that I think are really destroying our country.

Host: Yeah. And also like the

David Spiro: you can get over vaccine policy, but you can't get over some of the disrespect for democratic norms. Um, and you know, some of the stuff that he's doing for our foreign policy, we'll we'll never recover from. Yeah. The ddollarization, I don't think we'll recover from. The purge in the State Department is just I don't I don't think even the American the educated part of the American public understands what's happening in state.

David Spiro: These people who are have taken, you know, decades to gain expertise. Yeah. who are who are politically neutral. They're, you know, they represent the United States no matter who's the the president. They speak many languages. They're being thrown out. And in three years when we have a different administration, they can't be rehired. You can't regain. It's going to take a generation to regain that capacity.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: For diplomacy. So, we've lost that part of our foreign policy. We're losing the ability to use the our dominant economic position. We're becoming a unstable partner, a fickle partner, an untrustworthy partner, one that we make agreements and you know, like NATO, all of the sudden this guy just turns around and and starts gratuitously insulting people. Yeah. It's it's you know what he did making a joke about Pearl Harbor with the Japanese private that's in I mean

David Spiro: I was shocked. I mean I you know it takes a lot to kind of shock me but that really let me shock.

Host: let me shock. Yeah.

David Spiro: Um we're not going to recover from that. You know if a couple people die from health policy we'll recover from it. But this is going to take generations to recover from the way he's destroying uh our our cap our capacity in the world.

Host: And why why do you think all those billionaires like Elon Musk and other you know Bill Aman and uh those guys even David Saxs right those guys are well educated they are super wealthy they are very powerful they have uh a lot of resource and connections. Why did they support such a president? And Elon Musk is actually contributing to Doge that that Doge um activities.

David Spiro: No, Elon Musk is a white nationalist from South Africa who suffers from autism. Yeah. And you know, I I think the autism probably explains most of his personality and and what he's been doing.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: I think the others are, you know, I think that to get ahead as a billionaire, you have to be have the ear of the president. Um, so I don't think these guys are really supporting his policies. I think they just are, you know, they're not going to say what they think so long as

Host: riding the wave.

David Spiro: I think their livelihood and the livelihood of uh hundreds of thousands of people who depend on them Yeah. probably depend on their keeping peace with the administration.

Host: What do you think about the current uh vice president JD Vance? You know, like before he got uh chosen as a running mate, he's like a Trump critic. He basically say a lot of right things about Trump, but now he's 180 and he's supporting everything Trump said.

David Spiro: You know, maybe I put too much um credence in uh in Ivy League admissions. Yeah. But it's really hard to get into Yale law school.

Host: Yeah, it is.

David Spiro: You have to be really really smart.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And um I think he's smart enough to know exactly what he's doing, which to me makes him evil. Yeah. Because he's he's not doing this out of stupidity. He knows exactly what's going on.

Host: And all the Ted Cruz is similar.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: I don't I wonder about Hegsth. I mean, Hegsth went to Princeton and Harvard. I um I I just wonder what is going through his head.

Host: I think he just drink too much alcohol and that kind of completely damaged his uh intelligence. So he behaved like a completely drunker and on the on the television. Like look at what he's talking about. He's like citing all the Bible verse and he's he's acting like a Christian nationalist and he's like say, "Oh, we're fighting this war for uh it's like a religion war." Uh that's not that's not like how American military should behave like we should pull the religion out of the army, you know.

David Spiro: Yeah. No, I have no idea how to explain some of these people.

Host: Yeah. And uh that that's I think JD W is really smart. You look at his debate performance. He's he's a great talker. He's he's very smooth. He react fast. But then that kind of had me kind of think about the question like you should be able to figure out like this Donald Trump is not right like he he's he's not well and he's making some really bad decisions for the United States. Why are you okay with it? That means like you have no principles. probably like you have that power to become the president. If like the guy kind of died on the right during his term or like he got removed or the next time I got I can run for president, I'll have his u backings, right?

David Spiro: Endorsement,

Host: right? So when it happens to you, I'll call you up and I'll remind you.

Host: Yeah. Uh I believe I probably won't choose that option because I'm not born here. So like I'll never get that chance. Um, I'm kind of curious like do you do you lean towards Democrat or Republican? Like uh in your in your political uh spectrum, do you vote for Democrat or Republican? Is that like okay to talk about?

David Spiro: Isn't it obvious? Yeah. I'm a social Democrat.

Host: Social Democrat. So what do you think about the problem the Democratic party has like in the past? You know, like why did they lose to Trump twice?

David Spiro: Again, I'm not an expert on American politics. Yeah. You know, it's not my not my field. I I read the newspaper like you do.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: I think that um um I think that Hillary Clinton spent a little bit too much time talking to Goldman Sachs when she could have been campaigning in Wisconsin.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Um I think that she and a lot of the democratic machine ignored uh what workers were telling her. Yeah. workers who had lost their livelihood, their position in society, their homes, um their careers and I don't think that people listened to them enough and they basically started voting for a populist instead

David Spiro: which I don't think it was difficult to predict.

Host: Yeah. So for social democrat branch in the democrat party is actually I would say it's a minority minority group right like if you think about the current democrat party they represent elites like the the Silicon Valley uh billionaire and all the college professors all those like you know at least like you have status your kind of cultural elite or business elite it it lost connections with all the working class and majority of the you you know, middle class workers in United States. So that's why like you see the current represent are Bernie Sanders. I think he's too old to run like 2028, right? Like he he he will not be running. But the other people maybe AOC like that's probably it. Or uh Azora Mandani maybe another, but he cannot run for president. He's not born here,

Host: right? Yeah. I don't I don't know. I don't think I think that um

David Spiro: you know we're in a political system where centrists are going to win.

Host: Yeah. So you you think the centrist going to win?

David Spiro: I actually hope that they do. I mean I you know I uh but yeah I don't think the left wing has much of a chance right now.

Host: Okay. So you actually don't think the populism uh populist movement in the Democrat can win the 2028?

David Spiro: I'll vote for them, but I don't think it's a, you know, um, you know, if you're interested, I would read a book by a guy named Pollani. The book was called The Great Transformation. And he wrote about people's reaction to the lazy fair economics of the 19th century. Which was a brutal economics, a little bit like the neoliberalism of the 80s.

David Spiro: and um and he showed that there were two reactions to it. One was it led to fascism and the other is it led to communism.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Um and I think you know Polani is actually becoming a little bit rediscovered in the United States. Yeah. Because you know I think at the same time it it the income inequality in the US and and the rise of neoliberalism has led to um Bernie Sanders. Nobody who was a who's a self-described socialist would have been on the national scene before.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Uh but also to populism at the same time.

Host: Yeah. But why don't you think they can win in the election? Because you know Donald Trump is a populism. He win the election twice and uh although he claimed he did three times. So uh why wouldn't someone like Bernie Sanders maybe young Bernie Sanders can win in the Democratic party? you just think like he won't win in the primaries.

David Spiro: You know, the uh the United States is a very diverse uh group of people.

Host: Mhm.

David Spiro: And the populations where social democracy has worked the best are very homogeneous. The Danish don't have a lot of, you know, black immigrants from all over the world.

Host: Yeah. um they don't have a lot of people who look different than they they're all Danish. You know, the the the most extreme example of immigration is from Sweden.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Right. So, they're when they um agree to a redistributive system, they're giving money to people who are very close to them in their community. And the United States, we're giving money to people who are very far away. Maybe we don't even speak the same language.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: And so the theory is that um countries like the United States that are have such diverse diversity in the population are less likely to have redistributive policies than countries that are homogeneous.

Host: Then how do you think think we can solve the problem? Because like right now if you see the current policy rightwing always get those uh you know blame the immigrant, blame other countries, blame China, blame other people for our uh uh sufferings and eventually people were going to be tired of this rhetoric because right now you elect Trump. Trump didn't do anything like he promised to do. He did not bring down your cost. Your cost of living actually is actually going up. like the gas price is like over $5, $4, $5. So eventually like the the workingclass people going to try to find another solution

David Spiro: maybe.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: You know, I mean again you are putting a lot of credence in the idea of a rational system.

Host: Yeah. But they didn't didn't vote for her. Her recent history shows the exact opposite. Do you think the public media just failed failed everyone? Like uh people lose trust in the in the major news outlet like they just don't think those people are really telling the truth. Especially like Trump is very successful in attacking the media. He just say oh whatever is not good for him he say it's a fake news. Do you think like public public confidence in media kind of declined because of uh the past event? maybe the Iraq war because the the the media was like broadcasting uh Iran Iraq has this u weapon of massive destruction but it doesn't

David Spiro: um you know I I don't know I'm maybe the last person who actually reads a newspaper you know the paper edition

David Spiro: so I don't know how I think the majority of young people get their news from the Daily Show Mhm. you know, I don't think um I don't think people are are are serious about objective news sources. I do think and I know from people who are I'm close to that um you know when everybody mistrusts the same news source, I think that's a good sign.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: When people think that the New York Times is too pro Palestinian or too pro-Israeli um and it's because of the same article. Yeah. you know, that probably means the article was fairly objective and it's a well-written article.

David Spiro: So yeah, you know, I I'm not sure um I think that that that's a very common problem um even among educated people and and um you know as our political system has become more polarized, our news sources have also become more polarized and we can kind of now go read the people who we already agree with.

Host: Yeah. It's like echo chamber, right?

David Spiro: That's probably dangerous, you know? I mean, if you think about your podcast, you're probably not getting a lot of listeners who are extreme right-wingers.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Right.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: But, you know, they would be the ones who would probably benefit the most from hearing divergent opinions that that are disagree with, you know, they disagree with.

Host: But the funny thing is like I enjoy listening to right-wing podcast a lot like Tucker Carlson and Candace Oven even though sometimes it could be very conspiracy uh theory you know but it's very entertaining and uh sometimes I just look at their argument I I can I can see oh this argument makes sense like he's really arguing in his princip from his principle but like

David Spiro: I read the Wall Street Journal every morning. Mhm. Um, and it's not because I want to read a conservative newspaper, but I want to find out first of all when the con when a conservative newspaper says something, you know, I tend to actually believe it a little bit more than when I'm reading the Washington Post because, you know, I want to believe the Washington Post. I don't want to believe a conservative viewpoint.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Um, but also I want to find out what's the party line for conservatives, you know. So I um and especially when they criticize Trump um you know the Washington Post will criticize Trump for the weather.

Host: Yeah.

David Spiro: Really I can't trust it anymore. So when um when Dow Jones uh you know criticizes the Republican administration then I I tend to listen.

Host: Yeah. That that's the same thing you know like I saw Tucker Carlson is criticizing Trump's uh Iran policy. I I think like yeah, he's really arguing in his principle. Like he's not really just trying to be a Trump puppet and echo whatever Trump says. He's really have his own philosophy and uh his own principles.

David Spiro: Yeah. Yeah.

Host: Yeah. I think I I generally respect more, but I I I actually don't think the current Republican party is the same conservative party anymore. It's just a MAGA party. Like the real conservative probably find no place in that party. nowadays.

David Spiro: No, you're right. It's really been a pleasure uh to discuss all these things with you.

Host: Yeah, it's a really honor to have you on my show and thank you so much for your time.

David Spiro: Thank you.

Host: Yeah,

David Spiro: I look forward to uh to hearing hearing how this turns out.

Host: Yeah, thank you.