Anna Martin: Love now and fall in love. Still I love stronger than anything. For the love of love and I love you more than anything. You're still love. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love and today on the show I'm talking to Dr. Eli Sheff. Dr. Eli is an expert in polyamory. For most of her career, she's been studying the ins and outs of what it means to be in poly relationships. And for the past 30 years, she's been studying the lives of kids who grew up in poly families. Okay, so as a single woman in her early 30s living in Brooklyn, I hear the word poly a lot. It feels like everyone wants to be poly or went on a few dates with someone who's poly or had a poly phase in college. It feels like we're at peak poly saturation. But Dr. Eli first heard about polyamory in the early '90s when barely anyone even used that word. And once she learned a little bit about it, she had to understand it. Not just as a researcher, Dr. Eli had to decide whether polyamory was right for her. In our conversation, Dr. Eli tells me what she's learned from talking to the kids who grew up with polyamorous parents. Kids who are now old enough to make their own relationship choices. Plus, she has advice for people trying to figure out if poly is right for them. Dr. Eli Sheff, welcome to Modern Love.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Anna Martin: We're thrilled to have you. How did polyamory first come on your radar?

Dr. Eli Sheff: I was 22 and I was in college dating this woman that I was super crushed out on and she was not that interested in me. So, I was kind of heartbroken and thought, "All right, I'm going to just dabble in relationships with men for a little while because it's just so much easier to find a man to date. Like they'll come on to me. Whereas if I'm going to find a woman, I've got to be the one like doing all the work."

Anna Martin: You're like, "Ah, I'll give men a try. They're easier." Yeah.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Exactly. And kind of disposable, you know? I was like, I'm going to just dabble with these dudes until I get back to real relationships with women. And so I meet this guy and I'm thinking, of course, he's disposable. So when he tells me on our first date that he never wants to be monogamous and he never wants to get married,

Anna Martin: Huh?

Dr. Eli Sheff: I'm like whatever freak, you know, like I don't care.

Anna Martin: You're like so I'm in love with this woman. Yeah.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Yes. And you were going to be going away in 5 minutes. So you and your weird whatever. I don't care about that.

Anna Martin: And wait, can I ask like did he use the word monogamous if you can remember in that conversation?

Dr. Eli Sheff: He did. Yeah. But we didn't... I had never heard the word polyamory. He hadn't. He was just like, I don't want monogamy.

Anna Martin: I don't want one partner in just one, right?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Right? I want multiple partners. And I was like, I mean, I had kind of a negative reaction to it from the get-go. Like, okay, that's weird. That doesn't sound good to me. That sounds like a lot of work.

Anna Martin: Yeah, I was going to say, and why did it seem your gut reaction, you know, again, this is many years ago, but what was underneath that feeling?

Dr. Eli Sheff: At first it was just rejection of that does not sound like fun to me. That sounds like a hot mess and that is not appealing.

Anna Martin: Lots of logistics.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Yes. And then as we got to know each other and I fell in love with him, which totally shocked me.

Anna Martin: Uhhuh.

Dr. Eli Sheff: I, like I think many other kind of monogamously oriented people, I was like, "Well, wait a minute. Does this mean I'm too fat? I'm not... I'm bad in bed. I'm boring. I'm... you know, like what is the lack in me that you need other partners?"

Anna Martin: That you need other partners.

Dr. Eli Sheff: And he kept saying no, no, no, it's not about you. It has nothing to do with you. It would, no matter who he was with, he would need to be with multiple partners. And I was like, really, that just sounds weird.

Anna Martin: Bring me into that moment. Like was there a conversation you remember having with him where you were sort of grappling with this desire of his and this insecurity it was bringing up for you?

Dr. Eli Sheff: 10 years of conversation. Around that.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Dr. Eli Sheff: And he just couldn't seem to let go of it. He brought it up all the time. All the time.

Anna Martin: And was he acting on it or was he...

Dr. Eli Sheff: No, he really wanted me to find us a woman that we could share.

Anna Martin: Okay. So, we didn't know this term yet at the time, but there's a term for a female-male couple that is looking for a woman that they can both be with, and that is unicorn hunter. Because this kind of free-floating bisexual woman who's not in other relationships and just wants to attach herself to a couple and move to their goat farm in North Dakota and raise their children for them. She is so rare that she's mythical. I'm picking up what you're putting down. The goat farm really put it into sort of stark relief. I guess were there some conversations that made you feel like maybe I should give this a try. Maybe I'm being too resistant. I'm curious about that side.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Definitely. In part that he wanted a really big family and we had two children and that was really as much as I felt like I could handle.

Anna Martin: You've had kids at this point. Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Yes. And that I didn't want to bear any more children and I didn't feel like I could manage any more children. I was working on my PhD, teaching at night, trying to write my dissertation during the day with two small children. And he would work during the day, take care of the kids at night while I was working.

Anna Martin: This is seeming like a lot.

Dr. Eli Sheff: It was a lot. And he was like, "You know what? If you know, we could have another woman who really wants to take care of kids and you could be like the 1950s dad that you just come home from work, read your newspaper, you know, while other people take care of the kids and make food and clean the house and stuff." And so, not only is this mythical unicorn woman going to want to, you know, be equally attracted to both of us, she's going to have a house cleaning fetish.

Anna Martin: When you put it that way. I want to take us back in time just a bit, maybe even before kids, you know, to sort of the earlier conversations about his desire to have multiple partners. When do you remember hearing the word polyamory for the first time? Because you said he wasn't using that word. When did you first hear that word?

Dr. Eli Sheff: So, I was driving home from grad school in the snow on this really slick road. I'm feeling kind of nervous. So, I'm listening to National Public Radio as I always did when I was in the car. And the host was interviewing this person, Ry Nearing,

Anna Martin: I remember the name.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Yeah. Oh, yeah. She's a big deal in the polyamorous community and especially at the time. She had started this organization called Loving More. And they were talking to her about her organization and how this organization was having like an open house kind of a meeting in a public room in the library that anyone who wanted information could come to. And I was just like, "Oh my god, that's it. That's the thing he's been talking about."

Anna Martin: Do you remember how she defined polyamory at the time? Like what made what about that word and its definition clicked for you? Like, "Oh my god, that's what my partner has been talking about this whole time."

Dr. Eli Sheff: Loving openly and honestly, loving multiple people.

Anna Martin: Huh.

Dr. Eli Sheff: At the same time, kind of having multiple partner relationships, but not hiding it from anyone.

Anna Martin: Gotcha.

Dr. Eli Sheff: And that's exactly what he had been talking about.

Anna Martin: So you were like you're mentioning a kind of or you're describing rather a kind of like aha moment like oh my god there's a name for this thing that he's been talking about and that we've been grappling with as a couple. Did it make you more curious about it?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Absolutely. Um and especially hearing that they were having this meeting public meeting coming up. So I was like I went home and I was like honey we've got to go to this thing.

Anna Martin: You and your partner.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Yes. Because this is driving me nuts. You know, I feel so kind of riled up about it all the time. And I want to find out from people how do they do this? How do they manage this in their lives without just feeling awful all the time? Because it really was I was feeling just awful about it that he wanted these other people and wouldn't let it go. He kept bringing it up over and over. So, I was like, "All right, let's just go talk to these folks and find out what's going on."

Anna Martin: You come home, you're like, "We got to go to this meetup. Tell me about it. I'm so curious."

Dr. Eli Sheff: It's this big room in a library stuffed with people, like standing room only. I know. I was shocked how many people were there. And there's people talking about having been in relationships for 20 and 30 years, very happy relationships together with multiple partners.

Anna Martin: Yes.

Dr. Eli Sheff: And I'm like, how does that not just kill your heart? Like they're like, it's the opposite. It their heart opens and blooms with all of these additional people. They they really do experience it as more love.

Anna Martin: And were you like were you just listening? Were you asking questions? What was your presence in that in that meeting in that room?

Dr. Eli Sheff: During the meeting itself, I only listened. And then after the meeting, I went up to a person who later participated in my study. And I was just like, you know, you say that you're so happy with this. And when I think about this, it just feels terrible to me. Like, how do you manage that? And of course, her answer was long and complicated and hard to kind of put into a nugget, but basically she was like, I get a lot out of it. I get it. Sure, it has comes with some costs, but she said it benefits her far more than the costs associated with it.

Anna Martin: It also, I think, is a very openhearted question for you to ask a stranger, you know, who you've just seen talk in a room to go up and be like, "Listen, when I think about this, I feel, you know, hurt and scared me paraphrasing what you said, you know, like that's a quite vulnerable thing to approach someone with."

Dr. Eli Sheff: I think, thanks. You know, I just, interestingly enough, I guess the polyamorous people in general, they're very used to talking about their feelings. They're used to having challenging conversations. They're used to kind of looking inside and seeing what part of this is insecurity on my part, what part is, you know, like they're introspective. Folks, so it wasn't unusual for them to have this conversation. It certainly felt exposing to me, but I was fine with it.

Anna Martin: After this first meeting, are you like, "Well, that's it. I'm not going anymore." Are you like, "I got to know more?"

Dr. Eli Sheff: Not only I've got to know more, but these people, these humans are delightful.

Anna Martin: Did your feelings about polyamory start to change?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Absolutely. I felt much less afraid of it. It seemed much less kind of I don't know sinister is the word that occurs to me and I hate to use that word because it makes it sound so scary but it definitely felt very heavy to me to be caught in this I really want to be with this man like he's really important to me but I really don't want to do this thing that's really important to him and that felt very uncomfortable and the more I came to learn about polyamory, the less threatening it felt and the more comfortable with it I became. And I kind of wondered, is this something I would want?

Anna Martin: Well, let's get into the study. So, it's like at a certain point going to these poly meetups, polyamorous meetups, you know, it started off as for your personal exploration trying to understand your relationship, but at a certain point you decide to actually study this like write your dissertation on it. Tell me how that happened.

Dr. Eli Sheff: So for about three years I was a civilian you know more approaching it how does this impact my own life but by then I was in graduate school and I was learning all of these research methods and one of the research methods classes I had said do an interview with someone practice interviewing skills. So, I interviewed a polyamorous person and the class was like, "Oh my god, this is amazing. This is your dissertation right here." And I was like, "Really? Oh, but nobody's done research on it yet." You know, and at the time I wasn't aware there were two other researchers looking into this.

Anna Martin: And none of us knew about each other

Dr. Eli Sheff: At first. We all thought we were the only person doing this. And we I mean the community had been around but the word hadn't been around for as long. And now in 1996, what year is it? 2026. So just you know 30 years.

Anna Martin: Yes. Now in 2026, polyamory and other forms of consensual non-monogamy are fairly well-known. People know they exist. But in 1996, it wasn't as much of a concept. It wasn't as widely known.

Dr. Eli Sheff: I think it's such a good reminder that this is a word we hear, you know, I hear casually as a single 30some in Brooklyn, you know, like all the time. But at the time, this was not spoken about. Some people didn't even know the word for this, but you were here studying people who were living this way. And you decide to focus your study of polyamory specifically on kids raised in poly.

Anna Martin: Not at that point. No. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Not yet.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Not yet. I started out talking to the adults. And the method I chose was ethnography, which is primarily interviewing, but also participant observation, meaning going places and just hanging out.

Anna Martin: Exactly. But eventually you decide to focus a long-term study on the kids in polyamorous families. And I'm really curious about that choice. Why did you decide you were interested in studying children of poly families?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Partially it was when I would talk about my research findings at conferences or other places, people would say, well, how does this impact the children? Right? People kept asking about it and I wondered how are those kids doing? What is happening with them?

Anna Martin: How did you set up the study? How many participants were there?

Dr. Eli Sheff: I would say it's kind of hard to count because some people participated only once and some people let me interview them multiple times across the years. So, I'm going to say about 213 people.

Anna Martin: Wow. Wow. Okay. And about 33 of them were children under 18, which are now some of them are in their 30s. How often did you talk to these kids as the study went on? Cuz it's now a 30-year long study.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Some of them I've spoken to four or five times. Some of them I've only interviewed once. Some of them I hung out with quite a bit before I even interviewed them in that kind of participant observation phase of going to campouts and things with polyamorous families and kind of observing how the children would have their own little social structure. You know, they would play in a group and tell the adults, "Okay, we're going over here now." And the adults would be like, "Okay, come back in 20 minutes." Or

Anna Martin: and you'd be like, "I'm going with those kids cuz I'm studying this."

Dr. Eli Sheff: Exactly.

Anna Martin: What kinds of questions were you asking? What were you curious to know?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Um, I would ask them all sorts of different things. How it felt to have multiple, you know, multiple adults in their lives, what those adults did for them, how how kind of interacting with their peers, if it was ever an issue with that. Um, and I would all always ask them three different questions. One, did they think they would be polyamorous themselves when they grew up?

Anna Martin: And most of them said, "I'm not sure."

Dr. Eli Sheff: You know, kind of it depends on who my partner is and what they want. One was if you could choose would you have chosen a different family to grow up in all of the children said no they learned so much from this family even though it was hard sometimes and even though some of the things they maybe wouldn't replicate in their own lives it really said to me that these kids had their needs very well met

Anna Martin: that their need for attention affection structure sure you know all the and that's not even talking about the practical needs of food and shelter you know clothing and then what was the what was the third question you would always ask in addition to many other questions

Dr. Eli Sheff: um I would always ask so are there any of your parents' partners that you really miss that you know your parents broke up with and you really miss them and finally one kid said you know you ask that all the time and you seem like you have an agenda around that. I do miss people. I miss all sorts of people. Very low down on the list are my parents' partners. And I was like, not only you are right, I totally had an agenda coming from the outside thinking, oh, this must be a big impact on these kids' lives having parents' partners kind of leave when the parents break up and the kid was like, that's coming from you. That's not coming from us.

Anna Martin: Interesting. Wow. No. Was that sort of across the board people were like, you know, they do leave and maybe I'm sad, but that sort of missing, that deep missing of the partner was not so much a factor in general for these kids. I'm surprised by that.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Yes. In part because the parents put a lot of effort into having the children, if the children were attached to someone, that relationship could outlast the romantic relationship between the parents. And I saw that so much in these families. It was the nonsexual relationships that made the biggest difference.

Anna Martin: I want to make sure that we understand because I it's really interesting what you're saying and I almost I wish I had like a flowchart but this is a podcast and largely non-visual. So maybe you could describe for me like how are these poly families generally organized because you're saying nonsexual partners so it's like two parents biological parents and then what each parent has their own partner. Talk to me about the sort of structure of these poly families.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Frequently there will be so it often is the biological parents who are together and frequently when they very first come to polyamorous relating many of them are coming thinking we want much like my partner my ex did we want to be all together in one relationship many people realize that doesn't work that well like you may be attracted to someone who may be attracted to you, but it doesn't mean they're attracted to your partner.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Or that you are always having kind of a threeperson relationship. That really what I find is that many people have their sexual relationships in diads like twoperson sexual relationship. But the social relationships are knit together in a way. The polyamorous people call that a polyule like a like a molecule.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Only a polyule. Polycule. This is a word again that we hear. So we're talking about this idea that kids can maintain emotional relationships with their parents' partners even if the parent and the partner break up.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Correct. Yes, absolutely. And perhaps even more importantly, that it is the emotional relationships at the core of the polyamorous family. That to the outside people, it's the sex that really stands out because that's what distinguishes a polyamorous family from a monogous family is that the parents can have sex with other people. And so that outside of that kind of arrangement, the sex really stands out. But from the inside, the emotional relationships between and among people who are not sexual partners that is the real backbone of the polyamorous family.

Anna Martin: Can I ask in like a zoomed out way like what did kids tell you was the best thing some of the best things about growing up in poly families?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Um, it really depended on their age. When they're little, they think all of the attention is great. When they're twins, which is like 9 to 12 maybe, they think the practicality of getting a ride or um, one kid, yeah, is makes it's really nice for them. One kid was also telling me how he had gone to his mom and been like, "Mom, I I want some money to go to the store and get some candy." And the mom was like, "No, did you do your chores?" You know, like, "I'm not giving you money." He goes to mom's sweetie. Mom sweetie is like, "I have $10 and a Snickers. Do you need a ride to the store?"

Anna Martin: [laughter] Because the partners, that is so sweet. So sweet.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Um, the partners don't want to be like the heavy part of parenting. They want to be like the fun aunt or uncle kind of where they they don't want to, you know, deal with the kids bad grades or something. They kind of don't have to kid their room.

Anna Martin: Exactly. Whoa. Oh, I love that. So, like when you're a tween and you're looking to perhaps get your way or bend the rules a little, it's nice to have a person that's like, "I got 10 bucks. Want to sneaker?" Like, it's nice to have a person that's not going to be super disciplinary. And then when teens, what did teens or young adults say was the best part of growing up in poly families?

Dr. Eli Sheff: They found that the um emotional and communication skills they learned in their families and the ability to be open-minded and interact with a wide range of people really help them in their lives to kind of navigate a constantly changing world and to be able to kind of shift and see different angles and talk to new people in a way that they didn't see some of their peers successfully navigating. Like especially I remember this one kid went to college and got a dormate and his dormate had had a very sheltered upbringing. So this kid could not manage his own schedule, could not get up and get to class on time. Yeah. was not doing homework because there was no one telling him to do it. He had come from this very kind of sheltered, highly directive household and he came out into the world and just floundered.

Anna Martin: The child from the polyamorous family had come from a much more let's think about it, let's talk about it. What are your boundaries? How do they fit with the family's boundaries? much more self-responsibility to an age appropriate extent. They weren't like, "Okay, you four-year-old, go grill us some steaks,

Dr. Eli Sheff: but they were like, "Okay, you four-year-old, you know, if you don't wear shoes, your feet are going to hurt."

Anna Martin: Huh. It's like the the communication that's necessary for a polyamorous family to work kind of seeps into the kids consciousness and like becomes a way that they operate in the world, interface with other people in of course a clearly as we can see in this dorm room example like a really a beneficial way like this person can talk about what they need prioritize. I mean, and of course, let's just say kids who grow up in monogous families can also, you know, have boundaries and communicate, whatever. But the fact that this is just a sort of de facto way of communicating between all of the members of a polycule, well, how else were they finding that their background influenced the way they moved through the world or their own relationships?

Dr. Eli Sheff: In part it was their ability to interact with all sorts of different people who weren't like either themselves or the people they grew up with because they grew up interacting with a wider range of people not only multiple adults but also frequently members of the polyamorous community. upbringing which translated into being able to talk to their professors at college for example without feeling incredible anxiety about oh my god I've got to talk to this adult you know like they could go in and talk to their professors in office hours or something. They could make new friends in a way that if they had lived there for a while and had established this community and then they got sick, for example, they had people they could call on to bring them soup or, you know, Kleenex or whatever.

Anna Martin: Like natural community makers. Yeah,

Dr. Eli Sheff: exactly. Oh, I love that. Yes. natural community makers cuz they're coming from this kind of community-based high discussion origin and that they didn't necessarily love all those family meetings when they were 13. They got really sick of the constant discussion. They were tired to death of the family meetings. But looking back on navigating, for example, who does the chores moving forward in life, right? If if we look statistically at reasons for divorce right now, conflict over unpaid labor is among the top three.

Anna Martin: conflict over unpaid labor, yeah, is among the top three. So coming from a family where the family could discuss, we're having some hard feelings about this unpaid labor. How do we address this? Let's make a chore wheel that everyone has a different chore and the kids were sick to death of the talk about the chore wheel. But then fast forward 15 years, really beneficial.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Yes. They know first of all that they should not put up with a partner who expects them to do all the unpaid labor and second of all that there are ways to negotiate how do we spread this unpaid labor around besides gender. Of course everything you know nothing can be all good or all bad. So I'll just on the other hand say what were some of the things you heard from kids that were like the worst things about growing up in a poly family.

Anna Martin: There were some things that stood out to me as greater disadvantages

Dr. Eli Sheff: such as the stigma of being in a family that other people look at and think that's a weird family. I had expected to hear a lot more of that and that they did certainly experience that to some extent. But because polyamorous families, especially at that time, but even now, they often fly under the social radar, a lot of kids have multiple parents because their bop parents divorced and remarried other people or split up and remarried. So, the presence of multiple adults is not unusual at all.

Anna Martin: Huh. I'm also thinking just from my own teenage experience that there's a benefit to having, you know, multiple parents you can ask for 10 bucks from or whatever, but there's a really negative spin to that where it's like when I was saying I was doing one thing, but I was really going to a party. If I had to keep that lie going to multiple adults and not just like two or whatever, that would have been tough for me. Like I I feel like there would have been like a thing where when I'm a teen, like having a lot of parents around actually wouldn't be a good thing anymore.

Dr. Eli Sheff: And you nailed it. That was their number one complaint. Actually, the number one was that they couldn't get away with anything. If they were trying to sneak out, somebody was still awake. Somebody was a night owl and was gaming at 3:00 in the morning and sees them trying to sneak back in.

Anna Martin: Oh my god. You know these kids, you've been talking to some of them for 30 years. You know, not all the time, but you've been checking in with them over the course of 30 years. Have you gotten attached to some of them? I know this is like your job and you're a scientist and these types of things, but like have you developed affection for these kids?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Absolutely. One of one of the kids that I know kind of the best, I have watched her from the time she was a small child to now she is partnered and has her own baby.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Dr. Eli Sheff: But just so sweet to see her go from about that age about four when I met her to now she's an adult. She's, you know, got this education relationship, got this partner. She is in a polyamorous relationship actually with her husband that she just adores and they are doing great.

Anna Martin: So Eli then you talk to the kid and now you have the grandchildren of polyamorous families. Correct.

Dr. Eli Sheff: That kid is too small for me to talk to but I would love to in 5 years. In 5 years. Wow.

Anna Martin: That's the future of your study.

Anna Martin: So, you know, when you start writing your dissertation, which again starts with interviewing polyamorous adults, you still are undecided on the question of your relationship. But then as you continue to do this work, where did you land?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Well, I would say that as an intellectual, things that frighten me, I feel like if I can understand it, it won't scare me. Anymore. And actually, the idea of polyamory doesn't scare me anymore. But it took me 30 years to realize that being afraid of something is different than not wanting to do it. Well, I'm not scared of it anymore, but I still don't want to do it. When I'm in love with someone, I have literally no interest in other people, even if I have the full permission to go out with other people. It's like I can't what I think of it as, you know, those um power strips.

Anna Martin: Yes. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Where that they have multiple plugs. I have one plug and that's it. And I have tried to bud another plug. I've tried to solder one on. I've tried to expand my plug, do an extension cord. Yeah. Whatever. Exactly. Like I just have the one plug and it's something I cannot change about myself. And I think the people with multiple plugs, that is something they can't change about themselves. I think most people have an indeterminate number of plugs. I think that's where the majority of humans fall. We're all just a bunch of power strips running around. And to overextend your wonderful metaphor or visual, do you think that someone might have one plug for one part of their life, but then perhaps have a few more plugs later on? Like, can the number of plugs change?

Anna Martin: Absolutely. I think for some people it can. And I found I have different plugs for romance and sex. My my sex power strip has more plugs than my romance power strip. I think this question of like is polyamory for me is one that a lot of people have. And so I would love to get your insight as to how we can begin to sort of ask this question to ourselves, what we should consider. What are the questions someone should ask themselves if they're considering polyamory?

Dr. Eli Sheff: I think one of the main questions um a lot of people start with, do I want multiple partners? And that I think is is a smart one. But it's not it's only half of the equation. Not only do you want multiple partners, but imagine yourself at home with the kids folding laundry, making mac and cheese while your partner is in Mexico at a beach resort with their sweetie. How does that land with you? Like, can you share? Lots of us can think, "Oh yes, I would like multiple partners." But one of the biggest issues around a successful polyamorous relationship is how do you feel when your partner is out with someone else?

Anna Martin: That is a really interesting reframing of where we should put the focus. It's like, yeah, of course, you know, like I'd love to have another partner, but it's like how would you feel if your partner was out with their sweet? Are there qualities that make someone a good fit for polyamory? And the converse, are there qualities that make someone a bad fit for polyamory?

Dr. Eli Sheff: For this, I I really did a deep dive into the relationship satisfaction literature. For non-monogamy in general, there's a few things, characteristics that people who like novelty, tend to be better suited for non-monogamy. Um, people who have what they call a faster life history, that's a social science term, meaning they've probably moved around a lot. They've probably had a whole bunch of different kinds of jobs. They have um they started dating younger and they've dated more people. They are more likely to be interested in polyamory or or non-monogamy than the people who have never left their hometown who like to have one job and really stick with it, you know, kind of a more um steady steady way of life.

Anna Martin: Yes. Exactly. And not that any either of those are better than the other, but just what kind of wiring tends to make you enjoy polyamory. We're talking about the kinds of people that will be drawn to polyamory that would make for sort of a a good, as it were, sort of polyamorous partner. But I wonder on the flip side of that, is there a type of person who just should not do polyamory at all?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Absolutely. Okay. Um I think about jealousy now as like nodes in the brain kind of and some people have very few of those nodes and they get activated by very few things. That person is a much better fit for an open relationship. If people know themselves and they know that they get really jealous about a lot of things and it's very painful for them, then trying to share a partner with someone else might not be a good choice.

Dr. Eli Sheff: The other thing is it might vary by relationship. So if they're in a relationship where everything is really good and it's this one thing they're having a mismatch around but so they're having a mismatch around exclusivity or openness but in other ways they're on the same page about whether or not they want children, how to spend money, religion, work, free time. You know, if they click on all those other things and this is the only thing that they're kind of out of alignment on, it's much easier to manage than if they're out of alignment on exclusivity or openness as well as disagree about whether they should have kids or not and have conflicting religious beliefs and one of them wants to save and one of them wants to spend, then it's going to be the kiss of death for that relationship.

Anna Martin: I mean, I I wonder like when you when your partner when you were married to this guy, when you're with this guy who wanted to have multiple partners and you were resistant, he was more into it than you were. By far. By far. This might be a situation other people find themselves in. One partner is more interested in polyamory than the other. And what is your advice on how to navigate that sort of divide as it were?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Um, generally in that kind of what I think of as a mixed dynamic where one person wants an open relationship and another wants an exclusive relationship. Generally, if they can meet in the middle,

Anna Martin: What would that look like?

Dr. Eli Sheff: Um, so for some people it looks like a hall pass, for example, that they can't have lovers in their home environment, but if they go on a trip, they could hook up with someone in Jamaica and not be in trouble for it. As long as Don't bring any sexually transmitted infections home, don't get anybody pregnant. Nobody gets to move in. for another folks I know, one of them really wants an open relationship. Another one is certain that they want exclusivity. They have an agreement that they are exclusive except for this one convention that the open person goes to. And at that convention, they can hook up with other people. But not outside of that.

Anna Martin: Huh. For other people, they can't find that middle ground. If someone is truly monogamous and not only wants monogamy for themselves, but wants to be in a monogous relationship with their partner, right, that might not work.

Dr. Eli Sheff: But what I found is when the monogamous person in that setting, when their needs are filled to overflowing, it's much easier for them to say, "Okay, honey. I don't want to connect with anybody else." But you go out and do your thing. I'm going to go do my own thing. The monogous person isn't sitting there in the dark chewing on their nails, freezing and sad, but they are actively engaged in something else. And they feel like they get enough attention and affection and sex and goodies, emotional yumminess from their partner. It's much easier for them to give their partner room to go be with other people.

Anna Martin: That is so interesting. It's like compromise where possible and if not then maybe it is not a fit and we're in the place where one person has one plug and there are multiple plugs and it just might not it might not work. I mean I I guess one maybe last question is like is there like one thing if you were to say one thing to people that they should know before trying polyamory like the thing in all caps what would it be?

Dr. Eli Sheff: I would say it's no more evolved than monogamy. And there's a lot of kind of polyamorous propaganda about polyamorous relationships being more mature and more evolved and superior to monogamy. And I would say maybe some of them are, but some of them are a hot mess and certainly not superior to anything. There are monogous people who are quite insightful and evolved having very mature relationships and there are polyamorous people who having very mature relationships. There are monogous people who are small and grasping and jealous and there are polyamorous people who are small and grasping and their jealousy may express in a different way you know but according to polyamorous propaganda it is really everyone should be polyamorous could be and if they would just put their big girl panties on they could also be polyamorous and I think that is not true. I think Some people you can be fully evolved and still not have the spoons or the time or the space in your life for multiple partners. that the people who do best in polyamory not only want multiple partners themselves, but they look at relationships as a skill that they can learn and get better at communicating at meeting their partner's needs, at understanding their own boundaries almost so that relationships become their hobby.

Anna Martin: Huh. coming at the heels of discussing how well adjusted by and large these kids of polyamorous families are like I just again think it's really important to tether ourselves to like and yet still it's not more evolved it's like and it strikes me that you know one of our foremost experts on polyory you are someone who's wired for exclusivity you know what I mean like you understand it so well and still like this is not the way that your brain and your heart works precisely

Dr. Eli Sheff: precisely

Anna Martin: okay I'm going to close us here Dr. Eli, when you were younger, what did you imagine your love life, your romantic life would would look like?

Dr. Eli Sheff: I thought I would be a monogous lesbian. And I turns out I am primarily a lesbian. I had that one dude thing. And I'm I mean, I'm single right now, but if I ever get in another serious relationship, it's going to be monogamous.

Anna Martin: future partner, if you are even interested, what are you looking for knowing all that you know about the ways that different types of relationships can work? What are you looking for?

Dr. Eli Sheff: I crave autonomy in closeness. I like to have a lot of freedom and I like to give my partner a lot of freedom. If I ever do get in another relationship, I want all their attention, but I want freedom within that attention.

Anna Martin: in closeness. Put that on a t-shirt. I'm looking for autonomy in and if you want, I hope you find that. I hope you find autonomy in. And I hope I find it, too. Actually, I'll just note. Here's to everyone finding whatever relationship works well for them. No better way to close the interview. Dr. Eli Chef, thank you so much for this conversation.

Dr. Eli Sheff: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed chatting with you.

Anna Martin: The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alisa Gutierrez, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lin Levy, and Davis Land. Our mix engineer was Sophia Landman. Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemisto, Marian Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.