Host: Since 1983, the Billy Bishop Airport has been governed by an agreement signed by the city, a federal agency confusingly called the Toronto Port Authority and the federal government. Now, Premier Doug Ford wants to expropriate Toronto's share and declare the airport a special economic zone to speed up his plans for jets. Jessica Green is a professor in the Department of Political Science and the school of the environment at the University of Toronto. Daniel Tish is the president and CEO of the Ontario Chamber of Commerce. Great to have you both here. Thank you so much.

Daniel Tish: Great to be here. Thanks for having us.

Host: Let's talk initial reactions, Jessica. Premier Ford's plan to expand Billy Bishop Airport. What are your thoughts?

Jessica Green: I, I don't think it's a plan yet. I think it's an announcement. And I would like to know what the plan is. And I would like to know what the numbers look like. So, you know, generally in public policy, we have a proposal. We do cost benefit analysis, and we see how the numbers shake out. And I, you know, I think that there's a lot of purported economic benefits, but there will be a lot of costs to the city of Toronto. And I think we need to spend some time thinking about looking very carefully at what those are.

Host: All right. Daniel, we talk about economic benefits. Some numbers obviously announcement, not a plan, but perhaps some excitement.

Daniel Tish: Yeah. I mean, I think we all know people who live in Toronto, people who live actually across Ontario, who use Billy Bishop Airport to get into Toronto easily, to do business to, you know, tourism, to connect to other places, to connect opportunities. They know the value of this airport as a core economic asset of our city and a way to get in here. And so it's critical to jobs, to investment, to the competitiveness of our entire urban region. And I'd even say our country. So yeah, I mean, we believe that there is a place for responsible expansion of the airport. And I guess what we'd like to ensure, of course, is that there be appropriate local consultation that any changes be subject to very high environmental standards, and that it be part of an integrated vision and plan for the Toronto waterfront. Right. And I think for us, those are the three guiding principles. But I think it's quite exciting to see at least a vision. But I agree with Jessica. We've got to see a lot more details and and and there's got to be dialogue. There's got to be analysis and it has to make sense. But we're certainly encouraged by what we see now.

Host: I wish we had the transportation minister sitting across from us so we could talk about it. We did invite Minister Prabmeet Sakaria on the program, asked for a statement. Unfortunately, he declined our invitation and did not send a statement in time for our broadcast. We did, however, get a statement from the Toronto Port Authority, which is the federal agency that owns and operates the Billy Bishop Airport. So I want to read part of their statement. It reads, 'The Toronto Port Authority is in the process of developing a plan based on its vision for the future of Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport. Our vision is grounded in three pillars: innovation, operational excellence and community. We believe that progress in aviation must translate into tangible benefits for the people and businesses we serve, and that includes expanding connectivity, responding to population growth and rising aviation demand, strengthening tourism and trade, and embracing modern aircraft that are cleaner, quieter and more efficient.' Daniel, what would more efficient aircraft look like?

Daniel Tish: Well, I think more efficient aircraft would be more obviously more environmentally sustainable. It would it would be it would be it would be quieter. And I think part of the challenge that from my understanding of the issues related to the airport today is that it is governed under a tripartite agreement that goes back to 1983. Right. And that the agreement specifies what types of aircraft can be used. It's an outdated agreement from a long time ago. And our view is that rather than specifying the type of aircraft, it should be specifying the standards that the aircraft have to meet. And I think that's a sensible advancement because they they piloted, for example, the all electric aircraft, but they can't fly them. Right. And so, you know, this is a process that needs to make sense. It needs to follow the appropriate protocols, the appropriate local consultation dialogue. But I think that there's an opportunity to modernise that governance agreement. And so that sets the rules of the road. And then once we have the rules, then we can have the dialogue.

Jessica Green: So I'm going to be a little bit contrarian here and say that's.

Daniel Tish: That's my role too, right?

Jessica Green: We're you know, we do't have sustainable aviation yet. It's actually something I study in my work. There's no such thing as like long haul electric flights. There's no such thing as carbon free aviation. We're in the middle of a climate crisis. And we know actually that jet fuel is really bad for people. There's a lot of studies that, you know, show that there are extremely fine particles that are put into the atmosphere and into the air. When you combust jet fuel. And that's that's not good for people. So I think when we say sustainable aviation, we have to be very careful about what we're what we're actually talking about and what the knock on effects in air pollution will be to the people of Toronto, and particularly to people around Billy Bishop Airport.

Daniel Tish: Yeah. I mean, I think we all know people who live in Toronto, people who live actually across Ontario, who use Billy Bishop Airport to get into Toronto easily, to do business to, you know, tourism, to connect to other places, to connect opportunities. They know the value of this airport as a core economic asset of our city and a way to get in here. And so it's critical to jobs, to investment, to the competitiveness of our entire urban region. And I'd even say our country. So yeah, I mean, we believe that there is a place for responsible expansion of the airport. And I guess what we'd like to ensure, of course, is that there be appropriate local consultation that any changes be subject to very high environmental standards, and that it be part of an integrated vision and plan for the Toronto waterfront. Right. And I think for us, those are the three guiding principles. But I think it's quite exciting to see at least a vision. But I agree with Jessica. We've got to see a lot more details and and and there's got to be dialogue. There's got to be analysis and it has to make sense. But we're certainly encouraged by what we see now.

Host: Now, when you talk about the connectivity, I do have to ask, you know, some critics have been saying having one centralized hub for transportation helps drive urban growth through dense networks of connectivity. Why not look at Pearson? If we talk about, you know, our connectivity, we can look at the UP Express, we can look at the Eglinton LRT that can get you straight to Mount Dennis up there. There is the infrastructure there. We've all used the airport. We know it's one way in one way out when we talk about traffic there. So why not just stick to Pearson?

Daniel Tish: Every great city in the world has an integrated approach to planning its transportation network. Right. And there's a role for Pearson. There's a role for Billy Bishop Pearson by, I think 20 early 2030s is going to serve 65 million passengers. Right. So, so and again, I think there's we can separate what needs to happen in one place from the other place. They're never going to be jumbo jets at Billy Bishop airport. Right. I mean, so long haul Pearson will be the place, I think for long haul flights for cargo. And and, you know, freight. And whereas Billy Bishop is a place for passengers, it's a place for connectivity. It's a place for shorter haul flights, more of a destination and a hub for regional travel right across across Canada. And the other point I think is that and I'm, you know, we've been really strong advocates for transit, you know, including, by the way, high-speed rail, which is another project that's getting attacked a lot. You know, we put out a statement on that yesterday. And I think that it is really important that we integrate transit planning into this. And part of the critique I'd have of the city right now is they're kind of ignoring the airport almost. And we need to talk about how we build good transit to the island and the airport. Right. And most people don't drive to the to, to Billy Bishop. Right, right.

Host: I've got to cut you off there because I do want to talk about housing. Transit is being the other thing. Let's talk housing because Toronto's waterfront plans have about 30,000 new homes and major infrastructure. That is going to be. And so some upgrade to sewers and all of that just to the east there from all levels of government. If the airport expands, what happens to those plans?

Jessica Green: So I, I don't know. I know there's been some discussion about flight paths and the height of new developments. So it seems like there may be some concerns there. I do know that they will be in the sort of catchment area, which is about 15km for these ultrafine particles. So like, you know, and subject to the noise pollution, right. I sort of tried to think about this as like a low key version of the air show kind of going on all the time. So I think it's going to diminish. I don't know about property values, but it will diminish the sort of quality of life in proximity to a lot more air traffic and potentially like potentially jets, right? That's, that's what's on the table. So I think it could be a big problem.

Host: Where we would come in on this is just saying, you know, let's set the standards, right? Like, you know, reform the governance and then have the discussion, have the dialogue about what standards we as a community, we as citizens expect the airport to meet, right? And challenge them to meet high standards. I think that's important. I think that's sorry, a real quick. You know, again, I we've got to see the science on this, right? But, you know, I've also seen data before suggesting that the the waterfront where the airport is actually has less pollution than many parts of downtown Toronto. And so I think we've got to look at this and have an informed debate, a fact based debate, looking at economic costs and benefits and looking at environmental opportunities as well. So it's part of that integrated.

Host: All right. Got a couple more minutes. So I want to get a couple more questions in here. Daniel, we are in a cost of living crisis. You can look at the number of Ontarians who are accessing food banks right now. You can look at the unhoused population across this province. Is there an appetite for more travel when people are cutting costs? When we're looking at gas prices, right now, we're looking at the airport increasing from 2 million people to 10 million. I know these numbers still need to be kind of looked at there, but is there going to be an appetite for people to be using this airport when in the backdrop we're dealing with?

Daniel Tish: Well, there is I mean, we all know, how how we've struggled as an economy in the last year. But yet Canadians are travelling more and, you know, where they're travelling and they're travelling in their own country. And that's exactly what this airport is going to enable them to do more. And we talk about pricing, we'll, having more choices, having more routes. You know, having, you know, an airport that is responsibly expanded. Right? Not crazy, but, you know, you know, responsibly, that is going to lower the prices of air traffic from that airport. Right? So Canadians still want to travel. Right? And, and, and if we're making choices where we're not going, you know, to Europe or to South America, to long haul flights as much, and we're travelling more in our own country, the airport will help achieve that.

Host: All right, last question to you both here. What would it take for all key players in this to work together? Daniel talks about sort of the standards that need to be discussed. But what would it take to have all key players here?

Jessica Green: So I think I want to go back to the standards point. I think that if you care about doing this responsibly, if you think that that can be done, I am not convinced that it can. Then invoking Bill C5 and talking about special economic zones is not the way to do it, right? Because this is this will have real economic and quality of life costs to the city of Toronto. And you want to make sure that everybody does get a seat at the table, including City Council, which has been, you know, pushed out of this conversation, including the mayor, including the federal government, which has been, you know, not really touched this with a ten foot pole. So you need to get all of those people around the table. And pushing this through with even a Nexus card is not the way to do that. So I think we need to think about that. And we need to think about this holistically. Is Billy Bishop really the best place? Do we want to have a different airport that's maybe not in the centre of downtown? You know, there have been proposals to have airports at Pickering or, you know, some Hamilton other places. So I think that there is if you want to have a holistic conversation, we need to have all the actors around the table. And I think Toronto needs to have a real strong voice here, because Toronto will bear the costs and the island will bear the costs.

Daniel Tish: Yeah, well, look, like I think I certainly agree we need to have a holistic conversation and that everybody there needs to be a place for everybody at that table, right. As I said, you know, at the outset when the very first question, right. Local consultation, high environmental standards and integrated planning, you can't do that unless you have all parties involved in the appropriate way. So I think on that, you know, completely agree. You know, we have to talk about the costs and we also have to talk about the benefits, the economic benefits, the social benefits, the opportunities for more people across our province to get to Toronto more easily. And, and Toronto will enjoy a lot of benefits from this as well, which is why Torontonians overwhelmingly support the airport and and use the airport. It's been there for 80 years, right? So, you know, the costs of closing it down and, and, and building one elsewhere. Where are we going to build it? Right? Like it's, it's important to think of those costs that we will all bear as well, right? So let's work with what we have. Let's maximise the value of these assets in a way that's responsible and sustainable.

Host: All right. We're going to leave it there. Daniel. Jessica, I really appreciate your time. Obviously, we mentioned it's just an announcement when the plans come out. Perhaps we revisit. Thank you very much. Let's see the numbers. All right. Thank you, thank you.

Daniel Tish: Thank you Jessica.