Debbie Millman: Rose, let's talk a little bit about your origin story. You grew up in Santa Clara Pueblo, surrounded by generations of artists and thinkers. Your mother, Roxanne Swentzell, and your grandmother both forged paths that united making and meaning. When did you first sense that art could also be a kind of language for survival?

Rose B. Simpson: Hm.

Debbie Millman: I'm going real deep, real fast.

Rose B. Simpson: That's really good, I love that. I would like to say first that there wasn't a difference between art and life. That everything was a creative process and everything was applied and everything had intention and meaning. So what we did and how we moved through the world had an invested interest in creating a reality that was aesthetic. So I think that my mother's an incredible sculptor. And she took the ability that she had been given to work in ceramics. That came from generations and generations before us. And she used it to communicate in a way that she was needing to, and it became our livelihood. She supported our family with her sculpture. But it was like the art world was something very strange because she was also making the pottery that we ate out of. She used her ability to craft earth to build our home, to grow our food. And so that utility and relationship with it was innate in all walks of our life.

Debbie Millman: You've described your childhood home as experimental. And I understand that your mother once turned off the electricity to see how the family could adapt. How'd that go?

Rose B. Simpson: Oh, it was really frustrating when I had to catch the bus at 6:30 in the morning. But I am so grateful. My mom is always, still to this day, searching for ways to root and to figure out how to apply the innate values of relationship to Earth and being, in all walks of life. And so part of that was growing all our own food and figuring out how we could live sustainably. And we have the privilege of living in our ancestral home, having seed and relationship to spirituality that can foster the farming. So those seeds have been adapted to that environment for a very long time. We have tradition that's passed down for a really long time to be able to support ourselves in the high desert of northern New Mexico. And turning off the electricity was one step towards remembering what it's like to not be dependent on a system. And now because of the fact that she turned off the electricity, she homeschooled us for a long time, we grew our own food, I can actually hear electricity.

Debbie Millman: Really?

Rose B. Simpson: Yeah, I'm really sensitive to like -- yeah, it's all -- we adapt to all the things that we add to our lives. And when we take it away, then we start realizing how much we're affected by it.

Debbie Millman: What did those early experiences teach you about self-reliance or the connection between self-reliance and imagination?

Rose B. Simpson: I feel like understanding true sustainability means that we always have a choice. Because my mom didn't put us into the school system, she, you know, intentionally homeschooled me and my brother from early on, and we chose to go to school later. And now we keep going to school. And I think that was a way of her building a capacity in us to choose. There's always a choice. We're not victims to the world that we live in. We can always, if we're taught how to be sustainable and how to innovate and figure out how to survive in any situation, then we are in our agency when we navigate the world around us, right?

Debbie Millman: That requires self-reliance that is not always something that we're learned to cultivate as children. How do you sustain that?

Rose B. Simpson: How do I sustain that? I love to remember that I don't need the things I think I need, right? Like we’re told and told and told that we need X, Y and Z. And every single day, I realize it's a choice I'm making. And then I'm in my power in relationship to it. As long as I don't need it, it doesn't rule me, doesn't own me. And so if I maintain my relationship with the natural world, my food sources, etc., then I am actively engaging in the relationships that I'm making. And that includes the art world, that includes car culture, that includes education, that includes all the decisions, you know, being here today.

Debbie Millman: What intrigues you most about car culture? Like, are you a "Fast and Furious" fan or is it more spiritual?

Rose B. Simpson: At one point, I did like “Fast and Furious” a lot, and I watched all the movies. "Gone in 60 Seconds" is my jam.

Debbie Millman: So you've got range.

Rose B. Simpson: I grew up in Espanola, New Mexico, which is a town that’s adjacent -- it's actually sandwiched between two reservations, two tribal nations, Santa Clara Pueblo and Ohkay Owingeh, so the town is ... The youth culture is very mixed between indigenous communities and then the local Hispanic communities. And so we grew up together. So like, my youth culture was very much, like lowriders and like, what would be the cholo culture Hispanic community there. And you know, as a little kid, my mom had a ’52 Willys truck that she built our house with, and there was no room for the kids in the front seat. So used to sit in the bed of the truck as she drove through town. And I'd be, you know, watching all the cars pile up behind us because we went max like, 40 miles an hour. And I'd be looking at all the nice cars. And in my head I was like, when I grow up, I'm going to have a nice car. That was just like, you know, the goal, right?

Debbie Millman: Did that happen?

Rose B. Simpson: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.

Debbie Millman: Tell us about what's in your garage.

Rose B. Simpson: I have two custom cars that I built for myself -- (Laughs) In order to have an aesthetic experience.

Debbie Millman: What does that mean?

Rose B. Simpson: Relational aesthetics to me, when I was in graduate school the first time, I wrote my thesis, and I studied what Indigenous aesthetic means, right? And the closest I found was actually Japanese aesthetics that I was [writing] about and aesthetics of the everyday and the intentionality of all that we do and applied aesthetics to our lived environment. And growing up in Espanola, where the cruise line on Sunday is everybody get in their nice car and you put on some good tunes, and you lean back, and you are present, you're enjoying your community, you're having a sense of self-worth, you're enjoying the sunset. You have a good drink from Sonic, right? That feeling is actually presence, and that feeling is when aesthetic gets reapplied to our life and when we make those aesthetic decisions that we are in a state of agency, right? We're a state of empowerment in ourselves, right? And so I was building myself to have that moment to create that aesthetic experience for myself that I felt was reminiscent of what I knew of applied Indigenous aesthetics. Where it's not in a white cube on a white box, in some other building somewhere where you don't necessarily have access to. It's for everyone. Everyone has access to that experience.

Debbie Millman: But your work does move between disciplines, ceramics, metal, automotive restoration, performance, and now includes all of them. Now, did you always imagine those boundaries dissolving, or did that happen more organically over the work that you've done in your practice?

Rose B. Simpson: I always wonder if I stop being an artist in the way that the world is "arting." I would still be doing stuff. I would still be going from one place to the next and making things constantly. And I feel like I'm always interested in how -- I'm a dreamer. I constantly am imagining the next best thing, I'm laying there, like, that window should be over there and how can I do that? And like, I look at a car and I don't see the car, I see what it could be, right? Like, I look at a garden and I don't see the garden, I see what it could be, and then I begin. And I feel like I will always be doing that no matter what. I'm always going to be searching and whether that's in the world around me and how to better that and how to listen to it, ask how I can be of service of it, and then do work. And the satisfaction of stepping back and seeing how something transformed, that is that applied aesthetic to the world around me in all things. And I feel like that is also internal. So it's also that internal investigation of our psychological and spiritual spaces.

Debbie Millman: You've called cars vessels. And many of your figures, many of the sculptures you make, you've called vessels for transformation. What did these vessels hold?

Rose B. Simpson: Consciousness.

Debbie Millman: Tell us about that.

Rose B. Simpson: I am a vessel and I am aware and I am moving and I am making decisions intentionally in this world. And I make ceramic vessels that are hollow inside, and they are watching, and they are doing work, and they are independent, and they make their own decisions, and they move through the world with a job to do. And so do cars. And so do the houses we live in, the spaces we inhabit, they’re all watching, they’re all listening, and they're all making decisions. If we are aware.

Debbie Millman: Tell me how you become aware.

Rose B. Simpson: I like to ask, and I think the first thing that we can do is begin to ask. And then wait for an answer. And I think we have so consistently built a muscle inside of ourselves of prioritizing a human interaction that we've stopped understanding and believing that we can be in communication with that which is beyond human, right? And so I make anthropomorphized vessels in ceramics so that it's a bridge, because humans really like to talk to other humans and have interactions with those. And if we can see an anthropomorphized face and start feeling and listening, then we can begin building that muscle of communication with that which we have deemed inanimate.

Debbie Millman: One of the things that I've noticed about your work, particularly "Seed," the installation that was in two spaces in New York City, was that the sculptures that you make, these vessels, the eyes are always open. Sometimes the mouths are open as well, but most of them are closed. I'm assuming that these are very deliberate, conscious decisions. Can you talk about that? Because though they're anthropomorphized, they feel very real. They don't feel there's a step between real humanity, anthropomorphized humanity. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Rose B. Simpson: When I make my figurative work, I don't always include things I don't think are necessarily important like arms or hair, but they do have the senses. So they have ears, nose, mouth, eyes, because I want them to be, to have what they need to soak in the world around them and to create a relationship with that. And that we see that in that, we will also build a relationship understanding that they are sensing us, right? And so that is why I choose to do that. And you know, when I cut the eyes into the clay the first time, I always say "Hello, welcome."

Debbie Millman: There's been a lot of writing in the last couple of years about how artists of any discipline are vessels for creative communication. Rick Rubin talked about that in his book "The Creative Act," Elizabeth Gilbert talked about that in his TED talk, about how we have to be open to the idea of creativity coming through us, that we are the muse for creativity and allow that creativity to be born through our work. Do you feel that way as well?

Rose B. Simpson: Totally.

Debbie Millman: How do you feel like that happens? I'm waiting, you know, I'm like, come on, come on, come through. How does that feel?

Rose B. Simpson: For instance, when I'm doing a public art piece, I have to go to the place. I have to sit there. And I ask. And I wait for an answer. I say, what needs to be here, what needs to be told, what story needs to be, you know, manifested here to make change. And how can I be of service? And then I wait, and I listen, and it comes.

Debbie Millman: Always?

Rose B. Simpson: Real fast. It's like truth. There's only truth. And when you're in alignment with it, it’s like you just tuned into it, and boom, you found it. And then you're like, OK, time to get started. And so when I enter into the studio, and, you know, I get into that place, it's like, OK, what needs to be done? What needs to be said? How can I be of service? When I first met my 1985 Chevy El Camino --

Debbie Millman: Is that Maria?

Rose B. Simpson: Maria. She, you know, when I first painted her, the first day I painted her, she's a satin black with a gloss clear, made to look like our traditional pottery, I brought her home, and I was sitting on the porch with a folding chair, and I was looking at her and I was like, I didn't do this. This wasn't me. She used me to make her into what she was always meant to be. And I just listened. And it's incredible to see and give the power back and say, thank you for choosing me to be a part of this process of your becoming.

Debbie Millman: How involved do you feel you are in determining the aesthetic? If there's something that you're making, are you in the process while making, also evaluating the making?

Rose B. Simpson: Oh, I love the subject of aesthetic. I like teaching aesthetics to students, etc., because have you ever heard the term "don't yuck my yum?" So to me, aesthetic is when we let go of our thoughts and find our yum. And sometimes what we thought was our yum isn't. If we sit with it long enough, right? So it's like, how do you refine and refine and refine your yum until it's just mhm, mhm. Right? What is that? And how do we live in that long enough to where it's like, no, it's actually just to the left. And if you close your eyes, you feel it click, and that’s where it is, right? That is the finding of it, is tuning. It's tuning to it.

Debbie Millman: I think also having that self-reliance all the way, going all the way back to your origin story, to know that you can trust your sense and your judgment.

Rose B. Simpson: Yeah, and it's a muscle. I think it's a muscle and we have to build it.

Debbie Millman: You've talked about animacy, the soul of things. And you blur the line between making and being. And a lot of that, as you said, is about listening. What kind of silence do you hope your work leaves behind?

Rose B. Simpson: The silence I hope my work leaves behind is the one that is full of information, because there's so much to learn when we shut up. There's so much. And my pieces, unless there are 410-horsepower 350, going really fast, are very quiet. And in that silence, there's connection.

Debbie Millman: Thank you, Rose Simpson.

Rose B. Simpson: Thank you for having me.