伊朗战争的隐形代价
[Rachel Abrams]: 这里是《纽约时报》,我是Rachel Abrams,欢迎收听《每日播客》(The Daily)。伊朗战争带来了一些显而易见的后果,比如能源成本的飙升和更高的汽油价格。但是,这场战争的负面影响对于世界上最脆弱的人群来说,往往远没有那么明显,却要严重得多。今天,我的同事Peter Goodman将向我们讲述他在最近一次索马里之行中的所见所闻,以及为什么全球援助系统已经不再能够提供帮助了。今天是6月10日,星期三。Peter Goodman,欢迎回到《每日播客》。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams and this is the Daily. The war in Iran has had some visible consequences like skyrocketing energy costs and higher gas prices. But the effects of this war are often far less obvious and much more serious for the world's most vulnerable people. Today, my colleague Peter Goodman tells us about what he learned on a recent trip to Somalia and why the system of global aid is no longer in a position to help. It's Wednesday, June 10th. Peter Goodman, welcome back to the Daily.
[Peter Goodman]: 谢谢你邀请我。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Thanks for having me.
[Rachel Abrams]: 那么,Peter,我们现在已经进入伊朗战争的第101天了。我们在这个节目里已经多次谈论过它对汽油价格的影响。但你是报道全球供应链(global supply chains)的,这意味着你的足迹遍布世界各地。你报道过某件物品是如何从A点到达B点的,而且你把很多注意力集中在所有受此过程影响的人们身上。正因如此,我们想问问你的看法:这场战争是如何以不那么显眼的方式,扰乱了世界各地的事物的?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: So, Peter, we're now 101 days into the war with Iran, and we have talked a lot on the show about its effect on gas prices, but you cover global supply chains, which means that you've gone all over the world. You've reported on how something gets from point A to point B, and you have focused a lot on all the people who are affected in between. So for that reason, we wanted to ask you for your take on how the war has disrupted things all over the world in less visible ways.
[Peter Goodman]: 好的。首先,能源价格的影响范围远远超出了给你的汽车加汽油的范畴,对吧?我的意思是,我们已经看到在印度和南美洲,烹饪燃料变得稀缺。我们已经看到菲律宾限制了人们在办公楼里工作的时间,以此来限制空调的成本。我们还看到,来自台湾的计算机芯片工厂所使用的氦气变得昂贵且难以获取。这场危机的连锁反应几乎是无穷无尽的。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Well, first of all, the price of energy goes so far beyond putting gas in your car, right? I mean, we've seen cooking fuel get scarce in India, in South America. We've seen the Philippines limit the hours that people can work in office buildings to limit the cost of air conditioning. We've seen helium which is used by computer chip factories from Taiwan get expensive and hard to secure. The ripple effects of this are almost infinite.
[Rachel Abrams]: 这让我想起了蝴蝶效应。一只蝴蝶在一个地方扇动翅膀,你却在另一个地方看到了一场海啸。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Reminds me of the butterfly effect. A butterfly flaps its wings in one place and you see a tidal wave in another.
霍尔木兹海峡的瘫痪与粮食危机
[Peter Goodman]: 没错。我的意思是,这只特定的“蝴蝶”是从霍尔木兹海峡(Strait of Hormuz)飞出来的。那里是世界上大约五分之一石油供应的输送管道,而且还输送着大约三分之一的主要化肥,这直接影响到我们能种植多少粮食。所以,这只特定蝴蝶扇动翅膀所带来的后果是尤其巨大的。此外,除了这些连锁反应,还存在着重大的生死攸关的问题。而这正是我一直关注的焦点。我一直在观察大约60个国家,即使在最好的时期,这些国家也容易遭受营养不良的困扰。每当发生冲击时,我们都有理由感到担忧。而现在我们有一个非常大的理由去担忧,因为在世界许多地方,粮食和化肥的价格正在非常迅速地上涨。与此同时,我们富裕国家决定拆除国际人道主义救援系统的一大部分。这是一个可以追溯到第二次世界大战结束时的安全网。然后,我们美国和以色列决定发动这场战争。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Right. I mean this particular butterfly is coming out of the straight of Hormuz which is the conduit for something like 1/5 of the world's oil supply and something like a third of major forms of fertilizer which affects how much food that we can grow. And so the consequences of this particular flapping of wings are especially enormous. In addition to these kind of ripple effects, there are also significant issues of life and death. And that's what I've been focusing on. I've been looking at 60 or so countries that tend to suffer from malnutrition even in the best of times. And every time there's a shock, we have reason to worry. And now we have a big reason to worry because the price of food and fertilizer is going up very quickly in many parts of the world. And we in wealthy countries decided to dismantle large parts of the international humanitarian relief system. This is the safety net that dates all the way back to the end of World War II. And then we in the United States and Israel decided to launch this war.
[Rachel Abrams]: 你提到的援助削减,美国削减的援助资金当然指的是美国国际开发署(USAID)。我们在节目中报道过这件事。那是发生在第二届特朗普政府上任初期的事。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: The aid cuts that you referred to, the US aid cuts of course refer to USAD. We covered this on the show. That was something that happened very early on in the second Trump administration.
[Peter Goodman]: 是的,我的意思是,这是故事中极其重要的一部分,但这远远不是故事的全部。我的意思是,除此之外,像英国、德国这样主要的欧洲捐助国也缩减了援助。这部分是因为特朗普政府一直向欧洲盟国施压,要求他们在自身国防或资助北约(NATO)上投入更多资金,而不是像特朗普观点所认为的那样,仅仅依赖美国的善意和慷慨。因此,在伦敦、在柏林,主要政府也大幅削减了海外援助,这促成了目前的局面。让我给你举个例子。你知道,四年前俄罗斯入侵乌克兰时,人们也对化肥危机和粮食安全的打击产生了类似的担忧。因为俄罗斯和乌克兰加在一起生产了大量的粮食,他们也生产了大量用于化肥的原料。因此,从埃及到印度尼西亚,人们都在担忧面包和谷物的价格。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Yes, I mean that's a critically important part of the story, but it's far from the only part. I mean, in addition, major European donors like the United Kingdom, like Germany have also pulled back. And this is in part because the Trump administration has pressed European allies to spend more money on their own defense or financing NATO as opposed to in the Trump view just relying on the good graces and large of the United States. And so in London in Berlin major governments have also cut back significantly on overseas aid and that has contributed to this picture. So let me give you an example. You know, four years ago when Russia invaded Ukraine, there were similar fears about a fertilizer crisis and hits to food security because Russia and Ukraine together produce a lot of grain. They also produce a lot of the piece parts for fertilizers. And so from Egypt to Indonesia, there were worries about the price of bread and grains.
[Rachel Abrams]: 而且那场战争确实导致了能源价格的上涨。这种担忧并不是毫无根据的,对吧?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: And the energy prices did go up because of that war too. It's not unfounded, right?
[Peter Goodman]: 不。这些都是真实的影响。事实上,我曾在2023年去尼日利亚报道过化肥状况受到的冲击,那里的情况相当悲惨。但不同之处在于:当时国际社会调集了430亿美元的国际人道主义救援资金,其中以美国提供的170亿美元为首,来应对这场危机。这避免了苏丹、南苏丹、埃塞俄比亚、阿富汗和索马里等地的饥荒。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: No. these were real effects. In fact, I went to Nigeria back in 2023 to write about the shock to the fertilizer situation and it was pretty dire. But here's what was different. There was $43 billion in international humanitarian relief led by 17 billion from the United States that got marshaled to take on this crisis and staved off famine in places like Sudan, South Sudan, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, and Somalia.
[Rachel Abrams]: 所以,当乌克兰战争冲击世界经济时,人道主义系统多多少少发挥了作用。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: So when the war in Ukraine shocked the world economy, the humanitarian system more or less worked.
[Peter Goodman]: 完全正确。然后伊朗战争爆发了。这一次,我们处于一个政治环境完全不同的时刻。很多发达的富裕国家都在退缩。所以现在我们面临的情况是,一方面我们对援助有着极大的需求,世界各地都有气候危机;但另一方面,我们却看到国际人道主义救援资金从2022年的430亿美元暴跌到了去年的280亿美元,而且还在继续下降。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Exactly. And then came the war in Iran. And this time we're in a moment where the politics are completely different. And much of the developed wealthy world is pulling back. And so now we're in a situation where we've got tremendous need for aid. We've got climate crisis around the world. And yet we've seen international humanitarian relief drop from 43 billion in 2022 to 28 billion last year and it's still coming down.
后援助时代的政治考量与连锁灾难
[Rachel Abrams]: 你是否觉得美国的盟友看着美国对国际开发署(USAID)进行的削减,心里就在想,好吧,如果美国都在削减,那我们也可以削减。就像,你认为是不是美国几乎算是给了我们的北约盟友一个许可,让他们也去削减自己的人道主义项目?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Do you feel like the US's allies looked at the cuts that the US was making to USAD and thought okay well if the US is cutting it we can cut it too. Like do you think the US almost gave our NATO allies permission to cut their own humanitarian programs?
[Peter Goodman]: 既是,也不是。我的意思是,你看,北欧国家和欧盟作为一个整体,仍然在坚守海外援助的底线。然而,在许多国家,尤其是在美国这里,有一种政治上的吸引力。他们会说,“嘿,我们为什么不先解决国内的问题,而不是去试图拯救某个我可能永远都不会去的遥远地方的挨饿儿童呢。”这种说辞具有很强的政治煽动力。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Yes and no. I mean, look, the Nordic countries and the European Union as a block are still holding the line on overseas aid. And yet, the political appeal in many countries, and especially this one, the United States, of saying, "Hey, how about we solve problems at home instead of trying to save starving kids in some far away place that I'll never visit." That has a lot of political punch. Mhm.
[Peter Goodman]: 不过,我认为重要的是要记住,尽管在政治上,人们有时攻击海外援助,并将其视为一种可有可无的慈善行为是非常方便的做法。但那些设计并继续倡导这个系统的人一直主张,你知道,除了人道主义目标之外,它也一直是外交政策的一个工具。传统上,它关乎着国家安全政策。虽然人们可能很诱惑地去说,某个遥远地方的人和俄亥俄州或新泽西州或其他地方的选民有什么关系?但历史告诉我们,当数以千万计的人处于没有足够食物吃的境地时,他们原本就很艰难的生活将变得更加充满创伤。这会以许多不同的方式表现出来,但结果都不好。首先,你可能会面临一场极其庞大的移民危机。当然,我在这里并不是要散布对移民的恐惧,但如果你的观点是你不想看到数百万人涌向巴拿马的达连地堑(Darien Gap),或者涌向希腊和土耳其等地并继续前往北欧,那么你就必须考虑一下,如果你撤除了所有的援助,然后又加上一场巨大的危机,将会发生什么。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Now, I think it's important to remember that while politically it's sometimes very convenient for people to attack overseas aid and treat it like it's just sort of a discretionary type of charity. The people who designed it and continue to advocate for this system have argued that, you know, in addition to the humanitarian aims, it's also been an instrument of foreign policy. It's traditionally been about national security policy. And while it might be tempting to say, well, what do people in some faraway place have to do with the voter in Ohio or New Jersey or wherever? History tells us that when you leave tens of millions of people in a situation where they don't have enough food to eat, they're already difficult lives become that much more traumatic. That can play out a lot of different ways, but they're not good. First of all, you could end up with the mother of all migration crisis. Now, I'm not here to to fearmonger about immigration, but if your perspective is you don't want millions of people heading to the Darian Gap in Panama or uh streaming toward places like Greece and Turkey and on toward Northern Europe, well, you got to give a thought to what's going to happen if you remove all of this aid and then add on an enormous crisis.
[Rachel Abrams]: 你描述了一系列人们之所以会冒着失去一切的风险,前往其他国家寻求更好生活的原因。饥饿、气候变化、绝望,正如你所描述的,由于伊朗战争造成的冲击,所有这些情况都势必会变得更糟。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: You're describing a bunch of reasons why people risk everything to travel to other countries in search of a better life. Hunger, climate change, desperation, and all of that, as you're describing, is poised to get even worse because of the shocks caused by the Iran war.
[Peter Goodman]: 没错。人们是不会乖乖坐在他们的村子里等死的。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Right. People are not going to sit in their villages and starve.
[Rachel Abrams]: 人们会前往那些能更好地养家糊口的地方。而危机越严重,人们就越有可能踏上逃难的旅程。而且,也有必要提醒人们,你知道,青年党(al-Shabaab),这个隶属于基地组织的伊斯兰民兵组织,活跃在非洲之角(Horn of Africa)。可以肯定的是,像饥荒这样的创伤,为他们提供了招募新兵的机会。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: People are going to go to where they can better support their families. And the worse the crisis gets, the more likely that people will be on the move. It's also worth reminding people that, you know, al-Shabaab, which is this al Qaeda affiliated Islamist militia, is active in the Horn of Africa. And certainly trauma like famine, provides recruits.
[Peter Goodman]: 这是另一个社会冲击,对吧?有很多原因可以说明,为什么一个国家变成一个,找不到更好的词,变成一个“失败国家”(failed state),是一件非常糟糕的事情。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: It's it's another societal shock, right? There are a lot of reasons why it might be bad for a country to become, for lack of a better term, a failed state.
[Rachel Abrams]: 没错。当一个国家陷入绝对的功能失调时会发生什么?这会以很多不同的方式表现出来。这些情况通常都不好,而且对于世界其他地区来说,假装自己生活在某种巨大的封闭式社区里也是站不住脚的。你知道的,把“封闭式社区”作为一种国家安全政策往往是行不通的。对吧。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: That's right. What happens when a state sinks into absolute dysfunction? That can play out a lot of different ways. They're generally not good and it it's not tenable for the rest of the world to pretend that it's living in some sort of giant gated community. You know, gated community as national security policy tends not to work very well, right?
索马里前线:后援助时代的绝境
[Peter Goodman]: 所以,你知道,我已经开始思考可以去哪些地方来展示化肥价格上涨和营养不良所引发的危机。我正在和世界各地的援助组织交流。然后我和美慈组织(Mercy Corps)进行了一次对话。这是一家美国的援助机构。我在2023年为了撰写有关化肥危机的报道时,曾和他们一起前往尼日利亚,因此结识了他们。他们建议我考虑去索马里(Somalia)看看。这个国家特别容易受到气候变化和干旱的影响。我当时的直觉反应是,索马里并不在我潜在的报道地点地图上,因为它传统上被认为是非常困难、非常危险的。但他们建议说这是可行的。当我看到索马里对进口食品的依赖程度如此之高,而且对从霍尔木兹海峡运出的进口化肥也同样依赖时,我意识到,这里是一个近距离观察这场严峻考验的绝佳地点,就像有个人对我说的那样,这是“后援助时代”(postaid era)的一次残酷考验。我们稍后继续。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: So, you know, I was already thinking about places I could go to illustrate the crisis from rising fertilizer prices and malnutrition. And I was talking to aid groups around the world. And then I had a conversation with Mercy Corps, this American aid organization that I had known from traveling with them in Nigeria to write about the fertilizer crisis back in 2023. And they suggested that I think about going to Somalia. a country that is especially susceptible to climate change, drought. My reflexive take on that was that Somalia was not a place on my map of potential places to do reporting because it's traditionally thought of as very difficult, dangerous, but they suggested that it would be possible. And as I saw how dependent Somalia was on not only imported food but also imported fertilizer coming out of the straight of Hormuz,
I realized that it was the perfect place to see up close this grave test of what one person put it to me as the postaid era. We'll be right back.
[Rachel Abrams]: 好的。Peter,请给我们讲讲你的索马里之行吧。你在那里发现了什么情况?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Okay. So, Peter, talk to us about your trip to Somalia. What did you find going on there?
[Peter Goodman]: 好的,首先有必要在开头就明确指出,早在战争开始之前,索马里就已经处于一种非常岌岌可危的境地了。正如我之前提到的,那里有一场严重的干旱。不仅如此,还接连发生了好几次干旱。这些干旱彻底摧毁了食物供应。接着那里还发生了武装冲突。然后,在这场战争爆发之前,援助系统又遭到了大幅度削减。
所以,索马里进口其所需的约70%的食品和90%的能源。由于霍尔木兹海峡的关闭,在较小程度上还有红海的关闭,很多航运受到了干扰。物资运达非洲之角的港口会面临好几周的延误。因此,自战争爆发以来,食品和燃料的价格已经上涨了一倍多。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Well, it's important to say right at the top that Somalia was already in a very precarious situation before the war started. There was, you know, as I mentioned before, a severe drought. There had been several droughts in a row. These had devastated the food supply. You've got armed conflict. And then you've got these dramatic cuts to the aid system before this war.
So Somalia imports something like 70% of its food and 90% of its energy. And because so much shipping has been disrupted by the shutdown of the Strait of Hormuz and to a lesser extent the Red Sea, you've got several weeks of delays getting supplies into ports in the Horn of Africa. And so the price of food and fuel has more than doubled since the war.
[Rachel Abrams]: 你在描述一系列级联事件,这些事件所有加在一起都可能导致极具灾难性的结果。我想逐个过一遍。我们先从食品的情况开始吧,好吗?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: You're describing a series of cascading events that all could lead to these potentially catastrophic results. I want to go through them one by one. Let's start with the food situation, right?
[Peter Goodman]: 好的,在索马里首都摩加迪沙(Mogadishu),我去了当地的一个海鲜市场。那里有一些人正挥舞着砍刀,把鲨鱼和金枪鱼砍成鱼排。
我跟在那里经营摊位的一位女士交谈,她叫Fatu Manor。她告诉我,批发价格上涨了,因为渔船现在买不起像过去那么多的柴油了。这意味着他们无法驶入深海区域,而最大的鱼都在深海里。他们只能留在靠近海岸的地方捕鱼,这使得渔获量枯竭,进而限制了鱼的供应。所以,她必须支付更高的进货价,其结果是她不得不向顾客收取更高的费用。她的销售额下降了一半,而她现在甚至担心因为这件事情而破产。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: So, in Moadishu, which is the capital of Somalia, I went to a fish market and there were these guys wielding machetes to hack sharks and tuna into steaks.
I talked to a a woman who was running a stand there, Fatu Manor, and she was telling me that wholesale prices have gone up because the fishing boats can't afford to buy as much diesel as they used to, which means they can't go out to the deeper waters where the biggest fish are. They're staying closer to the shore, which is depleting the catch, which is limiting the supply of fish. So, she has to pay more and as a result, she has to charge her customers more. her sales are down half and she's actually worried about going bankrupt as a result of this.
[Rachel Abrams]: 当然,索马里是一个即使在伊朗战争爆发前,也有很多人已经买不起食物的国家。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: And Somalia, of course, is a country where a lot of people already had trouble affording food, of course.
[Peter Goodman]: 当然是的。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: of course.
[Rachel Abrams]: 但是,那些甚至在伊朗战争之前就已经负担不起去这个市场购买那些正在被切块的鲨鱼、购买她所售卖的鱼的人们怎么办?自从价格单边上涨之后,他们一直在做些什么呢?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: But what about the people who even before the Iran war could not afford to go to this market and purchase the sharks that are being cut up, the fish that she is selling? What have they been doing since prices have only gone up?
[Peter Goodman]: 是的。我的意思是,我跟很多家庭交谈过,我甚至都数不清有多少个家庭对我说:“我们不知道下一顿饭在哪里。如果能让孩子们一天吃上一顿饭,我们就很幸运了。”现在有很多家庭靠吃高粱粥拌着他们在河岸边找到的杂草来勉强度日。而干旱甚至连这些杂草也夺走了。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Yeah. I mean, I talked to I don't even know how many families who said, "We don't know where our next meal is coming from. We're lucky if we can feed our children one meal a day. Lots of families are now subsisting on, you know, sorghum porridge with weeds that they're finding by river banks and the drought is even eliminating that.
[Rachel Abrams]: 这是之前就已经存在的干旱。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: This is the drought that existed before.
[Peter Goodman]: 没错。但让我感到震惊的是,比如联合国儿童基金会(UNICEF),他们一直在用卡车向遭受干旱的地区运水,而他们已经在面临预算削减的问题。那么现在,柴油价格上涨了,这就意味着用卡车运送那些水变得昂贵得多。所以,现在他们用卡车运送的水量减少了。好吧,既然他们运的水减少了,就会有更多迫切需要水的人无法继续留在那些曾经依赖这些供水的地方。他们不得不动身前往其他地方寻找援助。比如我所参观的沿着埃塞俄比亚边境设立的难民营。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: But what struck me was how UNICEF, for one example, they're trucking water to drought afflicted areas and they were already dealing with budget cuts. Well, now the price of diesel goes up. So, the price of trucking that water is much more expensive. So, now they're trucking less water. Well, now that they're trucking less water, there are more people in need who can no longer stay in the places that used to be relying upon that water. They have to go move somewhere in search of aid in the places like the ones I visited in camps along the Ethiopian border.
[Rachel Abrams]: 那么,当你参观那些营地时,你看到了什么?那里的人们对你说了些什么?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: So, what did you see when you visited those camps and what did the people there tell you?
[Peter Goodman]: 唉,情况真的令人痛心。在我在埃塞俄比亚边境的多洛镇(Doolo)的第一天。这个地方传统上是大型国际救援组织如世界粮食计划署(World Food Program)、联合国儿童基金会扎堆的地方。我遇到一个家庭,他们离开了干旱尤为严重的农村地区。干旱杀死了他们全部的50头牛。那是他们一生的积蓄。一旦那些牛没了,他们就一无所有了。与此同时,河流也干涸了,他们无法种植任何食物。所以,他们足足走了九天。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Yeah. Well, this was gutting. On my first day in the town of Doolo on the Ethiopian border, the sort of place where traditionally large international relief groups, World Food Program, UNICEF have clustered. I met a family that had left a rural area where the drought had been particularly severe. It had killed their 50 head of cattle. That's their life savings. Once that's gone, they've got nothing. Meanwhile, the rivers have dried up. They can't grow any food. So, they walked for nine days.
[Rachel Abrams]: 天哪。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Wow.
[Peter Goodman]: 他们背着三岁的女儿艰难跋涉。等他们到达多洛镇后,却发现所有的这些国际救援组织,几乎所有的组织,都已经放弃了这个地区。这里根本没有任何援助。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Carrying their three-year-old daughter on their backs. And they get there to Doolo and they discover that all of these international relief groups, almost all of them, have abandoned the area. There's no help.
[Rachel Abrams]: 他们有没有告诉你,当他们满怀希望到达那里,却发现这仅仅是一个毫无援助的“援助营地”时,他们是什么感觉?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Did they tell you how it felt to arrive only to find out that this was just an aid camp with no aid?
[Peter Goodman]: 我的意思是,他们感到难以置信。而且他们也明白,就像营地里的大多数人一样,他们无法回去了。他们只好在成百上千的帐篷旁搭起帐篷,用的是营地里其他人捐助的一些塑料布。他们找来几根树枝,就这么搭建起这个简易的住所。他们只是在等待,期盼着能有一些援助重返这里。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: I mean, they were in disbelief and they understood like most of the people in these camps, they can't go back. They set up a tent alongside hundreds of others with some plastic sheeting that gets donated by some other people in the camp. They find some sticks and they set up this shelter and they're just waiting and hoping that some aid will return.
生命倒计时:医疗系统的瘫痪与无奈
[Rachel Abrams]: 你正在描述的是一场正在形成的、或者是已经发生的大规模饥饿危机。你能否谈谈,对于那些没有足够食物的人,对于那些食不果腹的儿童来说,目前有什么样的治疗手段可用?而且,这些治疗手段是否也因为战争而发生了改变?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: What you are describing is a mass starvation crisis in the making, if not already here. Can you talk a little bit about what treatment is available for people who do not have enough food, for these children who do not have enough food, and has that changed also as a result of the war?
[Peter Goodman]: 是的,这已经发生了剧烈的变化。我想我在那儿看到的最悲惨的事情大概是,我被带到了摩加迪沙一家医院的联合国儿童基金会病房,那里收治的都是最严重的营养不良病例。这家医院在过去几个月里的病例数翻了一番。这是战争造成各种混乱以来的情况。我看到婴儿需要插胃管并吸氧才能勉强维持生命。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Yeah, that's changed dramatically. I think maybe the most harrowing thing I saw, I was taken to a uh a UNICEF wart of a hospital in Moadishu where the most severe malnourishment cases are taken. This hospital has seen a doubling of cases in the last few months. This is since the disruptions of the war. I saw babies needing feeding tubes and oxygen to be kept alive.
[Doctor]: 这样可以吗?谢谢。
Original English
[Doctor]: Is this okay? Thank you.
[Peter Goodman]: 我通过翻译和一位母亲交谈,她正坐在她18个月大的小男婴旁边,婴儿正靠在她身上。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: And I talked through a translator with a mother who was sitting next to her 18-month-old baby boy leaning up alongside her.
[Translator]: 所以她说河水干涸了,所以他们无法耕种。
Original English
[Translator]: So she's saying the river dried up so they cannot cultivate.
[Peter Goodman]: 所以他们失去了庄稼。于是他们挨饿,她的儿子开始呕吐。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: So they lost their crop. So they got hungry and her son began vomiting.
[Translator]: 是的。他们必须给我们打针。
Original English
[Translator]: Yeah. They have to give us injections.
[Peter Goodman]: 当她还在襁褓中的儿子吃什么吐什么的时候,她不得不去乞讨,才凑够24美元带孩子进城。而在这个地方,农场工人们一天的工资才1美元左右。他这其实还算是一个“积极的康复结果”。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: And when her infant son couldn't hold down any food, she had to beg to get $24 to get her child to the city in a place where farm labors are making a dollar a day. And he was actually a quote unquote positive outcome.
[Doctor]: 哦,就是这样。再等三到四天。
Original English
[Doctor]: Oh, that's it. Another three to four days.
[Peter Goodman]: 他就快要出院了。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: He was about to be discharged.
[Doctor]: 好的,太好了。谢谢。非常感谢你。我们都在牵挂着你。
Original English
[Doctor]: Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you so much. We're thinking of you.
[Peter Goodman]: 但这里最让我感到震惊的是:那里的医生告诉我,他们认为其中三分之一的病例本来是可以避免的,只要这些孩子能够更早地得到评估和治疗。可是现在联合国儿童基金会被迫关闭了索马里各地的205个健康与营养中心。如果那些中心还在,许多最终住进医院、需要靠氧气呼吸和胃管维持生命的孩子本来能更早得到评估和治疗,但这部分能力已经被瓦解了。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: But here was the part of this that was most striking to me. The doctors there told me a third of these cases they think could have been avoided had these kids been assessed and treated earlier. Now UNICEF has been forced to close 205 health and nutrition centers throughout Somalia. If those centers were still there, then a lot of these kids ending up in the hospital needing oxygen to breathe and feeding tubes to stay alive would be treated and assessed earlier, but that capacity has been dismantled.
空荡的仓库与不可避免的死亡
[Rachel Abrams]: Peter,你提到在伊朗战争之前,索马里就已经面临着一连串的连锁危机了,对吧?我们有任何方法来量化现在的人道主义危机变得有多糟糕吗?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Peter, you mentioned that Somalia was already facing a cascading series of crises even before the Iran war, right? Do we have any way to quantify how much worse the humanitarian crisis has gotten?
[Peter Goodman]: 嗯,让我这么对你说吧。在今年二月份,也就是在伊朗战争的影响显现之前,联合国粮食及农业组织发出警告称,索马里有600万到1200万人口,大概占到了总人口的三分之一,正遭受着被定为“紧急状态”级别的饥饿。而且在去年初,世界粮食计划署(World Food Program),这也是该国最大的食品援助来源,拥有足够的资金每个月为多达200万人提供援助。
然而,当我在那里的时候,大约是在四月底、五月初,他们的资金只够每月为30万人提供服务了。而这笔资金在六月底也将耗尽。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Well, let me put it to you this way. In February, so this is before the impacts of the Iran war, the UN Food and Agriculture Organization warns that there are 6 and 12 million people in Somalia. That's about a third of the population that are suffering hunger at levels that are deemed an emergency. And early last year, the World Food Program, which is the largest source of food aid in the country, has funds to serve as many as 2 million people a month.
Well, when I was there, this is late April, early May, they were down to funds that were adequate to serve 300,000 people a month. And that was going to run out at the end of June.
[Rachel Abrams]: 所以是从每月200万人降到了30万人,而且到七月份就什么都没了。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: So from 2 million to 300,000 a month and no more come July.
[Peter Goodman]: 没错。我甚至在索马里实地拍下了这种援助物资耗尽的实时画面。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Correct. And I actually got a snapshot of this aid running out in real time in Somalia.
[Josephine Mully]: 7,500。
Original English
[Josephine Mully]: 7,500.
[Peter Goodman]: 所以我参观了一个世界粮食计划署的仓库。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: So I went to visit a world food program warehouse.
[Josephine Mully]: 这是两个月的供应量。
Original English
[Josephine Mully]: This is 2 months supply.
[Peter Goodman]: 对。两个月的供应量。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Yeah. 2 months supply.
[Josephine Mully]: 好的。
Original English
[Josephine Mully]: Okay.
[Peter Goodman]: 这地方感觉就像个堡垒,高高的围墙上面拉着铁丝网。它的基本作用是向该地区供应食品。我和仓库的负责人Josephine Mully一起走过了这个设施。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: This is a place that felt like a fortress, you know, high walls topped by barbed wire. Supplying the region basically with food. And I walked through that facility with the director, Josephine Mully.
[Peter Goodman]: Josephine,两年前你刚开始在这里工作的时候,这些帐篷里有多少个是满的?
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Josephine, so when you first started here two years ago, how many of these tents were full?
[Josephine Mully]: 基本上,我们过去一直是满负荷运转的。
Original English
[Josephine Mully]: Basically, we used to have full capacity.
[Peter Goodman]: 她指给我看了13个A型帐篷,正常情况下这些帐篷都应该装满食品援助。然而,这13个帐篷中竟有12个是空空如也的。所以,我们站在唯一一个真正还有点物资的帐篷里。
我们走进了这唯一装满物资的帐篷,里面堆满了牛皮纸箱。纸板箱上印着美国国际开发署(USAID)的标志和美国国旗,上面写着“美国制造”。箱子里装满了“Plumpy'Nut”,这是一种富含花生的营养软膏,用来喂养营养不良的儿童以及孕妇和哺乳期母亲。而这就是最后一点存货了。供应链的渠道里再也没有任何补给了。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: She showed me these 13 A-frame tents that normally would be full of food aid. And 12 of these 13 tents were empty. So, we're in the one tent that actually does have some supplies and it's
We went inside this one tent that was full and there were these brown cartons, cardboard boxes stamped with the US aid logo and American flags says made in USA. They were full of plumpy nut, which is this peanut rich nutrient paste that's fed to malnourished children and pregnant and breastfeeding moms. And this was the last of it. there was nothing else in the pipeline
[Josephine Mully]: 只能撑到6月,6月、7月。
Original English
[Josephine Mully]: up to June June July
[Peter Goodman]: 明白了。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: right
[Josephine Mully]: 如果我们拿不到任何资金,我们就会完全、彻底枯竭。我们就无法进行响应。
Original English
[Josephine Mully]: if we don't get any funding we'll be dry completely completely we can't respond
[Peter Goodman]: 我很直白地问这位主管,那到时候这里的居民会怎么样呢?你打算怎么办?
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: and I asked the director quite bluntly and then what happens to the population what are you going to do
[Josephine Mully]: 我也要问你同样的问题。当你没有任何东西可以分发时会发生什么?你还能给什么?变得越来越绝望,并且看到人们真的……
Original English
[Josephine Mully]: I would ask you the same question what happens when you don't have anything to give what do you give and get desperate and see people really
[Peter Goodman]: 这让我真切地感受到,这些援助工作者现在处于这样一种境地,他们不得不在考虑一种“痛苦的层级筛选”。正如一位粮食计划署官员对我说的那样,他们现在要决定:谁能在今天活下去,谁又会在两周后死去。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: it it really brought home for me that these aid workers are now in a position where they're having to contemplate this hierarchy of suffering where you know as one food program official put it to me who lives today and who dies in in two weeks.
波及全球:不仅仅是索马里
[Rachel Abrams]: Peter,你在索马里看到的这一切,在多大程度上能够代表这场战争在你一直关注的其他国家所造成的下游影响?
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Peter, how representative is what you saw in Somalia of the downstream effects of this war in the other countries that you have been focused on?
[Peter Goodman]: 嗯,你看,索马里在陷入这场危机时确实处于特别脆弱的状态,但这非常有代表性,因为其发展轨迹是一样的。比如在苏丹,它目前被广泛认为是世界上最可怕的人道主义危机。在该国的一些地区,官方已经宣布陷入了饥荒。然而现在,在苏丹港(Port Sudan)这个苏丹食品援助的主要门户,物资运抵的时间都晚了好几周。而且联合国儿童基金会驻苏丹的负责人告诉我,很难将这些物资用卡车运到饥荒灾区,因为不仅柴油价格非常昂贵,而且卡车运输公司也不愿意冒着风险把卡车开进内陆腹地。这是因为柴油燃料确实出现了实质性的短缺,他们担心自己会被困在那里。他们担心自己会被困在当地。
我还刚从西非的科特迪瓦(Ivory Coast)回来,那里是地球上经济增长最快的国家之一。在那儿,可可农户由于其农作物价格大幅下跌,已经在受苦了。现在,他们又面临着化肥价格上涨的问题,这意味着产量下降,生计更加艰难,诸如此类的事情还在继续上演。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Well, look, Somalia goes into this crisis especially vulnerable, but it is very much representative in that the trajectory is the same. So, in Sudan, which is widely considered the world's most dire humanitarian crisis at the moment, where you already have parts of the country in officially declared famine. Well, now in Port Sudan, the primary gateway for food aid in Sudan, you have stuff coming in weeks later and then the head of UNICEF for Sudan told me it's difficult to get that stuff trucked to places that are stricken by famine because not only is the price of diesel so expensive, but the trucking companies are unwilling to take the risk of bringing their trucks into the hinderland because there are actual physical shortages of diesel fuel They're worried they're going to get stuck there. They're worried they're going to get stuck there.
So, I just came back from Ivory Coast, which is one of the fastest growing economies on on Earth. This is in West Africa. And there you have cocoa farmers who have already been suffering from dramatically reduced prices for their crops. Now, they're looking at increased prices for fertilizer, which means lower yields, lower livelihoods, and on it goes.
[Rachel Abrams]: Peter,自从战争爆发以来,我们在这个节目中多次谈到过一件事:即使战争明天就结束,即使霍尔木兹海峡明天就重新开放,但是波斯湾能源基础设施所遭受的破坏已经足够大,对能源供应的干扰可能会持续好几年。我想知道你是否预见到了我们今天谈论的这些国家也会面临同样长久的干扰。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Peter, one of the things that we have talked about on this show a lot since the war began was that even if it ended tomorrow, even if the straight of Hormuz opened tomorrow, enough damage has been done to energy infrastructure in the Persian Gulf that the disruptions to energy supplies could go on for years. And I wonder whether you foresee that same kind of more lasting disruption in the countries that we've talked about today.
[Peter Goodman]: 听着,我们在这里谈论的很多事情都将永远改变人们的生活。海峡重新开放后,有些事情会恢复正常吗?也许有一部分会吧。当然,燃料价格大概率会回落。化肥会变得更容易买到,食品价格也可能降下来。这可能会带来很多好处。但你必须从更广阔的角度来看待问题。我的意思是,你再想想那个蝴蝶效应吧。所有这些连锁反应不可能在几周或者哪怕是几年内被逆转。我去了索马里多洛镇的一个培训项目,那里过去是由美国国际开发署资助的。这个项目旨在培训人们成为裁缝。当我到那儿的时候,他们没有线了,也没有缝纫机需要用的化学品了。而且入学人数直线下降。如果你考虑到明天要让人吃饱饭的问题,这可能不是最急需的那种项目。但在建立向上流动的途径方面,它是至关重要的。把这种影响乘以一百万倍,你就能想象它的规模。
你知道,Rachel,我做这类报道已经很长时间了。我在冲突地区和灾区度过了许多时光。2004年,海啸发生的那天我在泰国。我去了印度尼西亚,我看到了、也听到了那些将永远困扰我的故事。在泰国,我看到200具尸体摆在一个临时的停尸房里,就那么暴露在阳光下。我听父母们讲述着他们的孩子是如何被那巨浪从怀中硬生生卷走的。我的意思是,我其实很不喜欢搞那种所谓的“苦难奥林匹克”比较。然而,我在索马里看到的景象既令人愤怒,又令人心碎。因为印度洋海啸中所发生的一切,用他们的话说,是天灾(act of God)。而我在索马里所看到的,却是一连串政治决策的产物。那是人类亲手制造的悲剧。
现在有数亿人,由于气候变化、援助系统的削减以及战争的影响,正处于这种如同炼狱般的境地。而我们还仅仅处于这种状态的最初阶段。从这里往后,深渊还深得很。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Look, a lot of what we're talking about here will change people's lives forever. Now, will some of it return to normal when the straight reopens? Maybe some of it. Sure, fuel prices presumably will go back down. Fertilizer will be more available and and food prices could come back down and that could have a lot of benefit. But you have to look at things a little more expansively than that. I mean, again, think about the butterfly effect. All of the ripple effects that can't be undone in a few weeks or maybe even years. I mean, I went to a training program in Doolo in Somalia that used to be funded by USAD. It trained people to be seamstresses. And when I was there, they had no threat. They didn't have chemicals for their sewing machines. And enrollment had crashed. Now, this is not the most acutely needed sort of program if you're thinking about feeding people tomorrow, but it's vital in terms of building up some upward mobility. Think about that times a million.
You know, Rachel, I've been doing this sort of work a long time. I spent a lot of time in conflict zones and disasters. You know, in 2004, I was in Thailand the day of the tsunami. I went to Indonesia and I saw and heard stories that will haunt me forever. I saw 200 bodies in Thailand set up at this makeshift morg lying out in the sun. I heard parents recounting how their children had been yanked out of their arms by this wave. I mean, I don't really like the sort of Olympics of suffering. And yet what I saw in Somalia was enraging as well as gutting because what happened in the Indian Ocean tsunami was as they say an act of God and what I was seeing in Somalia was the product of a series of political decisions. It was made by human beings.
You have hundreds of millions of people who by dent of climate change, cuts to the aid system, the impacts of the war are now in these sort of purgatory situations and we're still at the beginning stages of it. There's a long way down to go from here.
[Rachel Abrams]: Peter Goodman,非常感谢你。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: Peter Goodman, thank you so much.
[Peter Goodman]: 也非常感谢你,Rachel。
Original English
[Peter Goodman]: Thank you so much, Rachel.
[Rachel Abrams]: 稍后回来。以下是今天你需要了解的其他新闻。周三凌晨,美国和伊朗在中东地区发生了交火。这是本周早些时候一架美国武装直升机被击落之后的一次严重升级。根据特朗普总统的命令,美国中央司令部(US Central Command)在霍尔木兹海峡附近发起了所谓的自卫行动,袭击了伊朗的防空系统、地面控制站和侦察雷达站点。目前损失的规模尚不清楚。作为回应,伊朗声称对驻扎在巴林的美国海军第五舰队(US Navy's fifth fleet)发射了无人机进行袭击,并对该地区的美军基地发起了21次袭击。
但美国官员报告称,几乎所有来袭的导弹和无人机都被成功拦截。根据美国方面的初步评估,目前没有关于美军伤亡或美军基地受损的报告。
今天的节目由Adrienne Hurst、Michelle Bona和Claire Tennis Getter制作,并得到了Diana Wyn的协助。节目由Chris Hackel和Michael Benois负责编辑,Liz O Balin提供协助。节目中的音乐由Dan Powell和Leah Shaw Deon创作。我们的主题音乐由Wonderly创作。本期节目的音效工程师是Chris Wood。
这就是本期《每日播客》的全部内容。我是Rachel Abrams。我们明天见。
Original English
[Rachel Abrams]: We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Early Wednesday morning, the United States and Iran exchanged military attacks in the Middle East. A severe escalation after the downing of an American helicopter gunship earlier in the week. Acting on orders from President Trump, US Central Command launched what it called self-defense operations near the Strait of Hormuz, striking Iranian air defenses, ground control stations, and surveillance radar sites. The scale of the damage is not yet clear. In response, Iran claimed to launch drone strikes targeting the US Navy's fifth fleet in Bahrain along with 21 attacks on US bases across the region.
But US officials report that nearly all of the incoming missiles and drones were intercepted and there have been no reports of American casualties or damage to US bases according to initial American assessments.
Today's episode was produced by Adrienne Hurst, Michelle Bona, and Claire Tennis Getter with help from Diana Wyn. It was edited by Chris Hackel and Michael Benois with help from Liz O Balin and contains music by Dan Powell and Leah Shaw Deon. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Chris Wood.
That's it for the Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.
📌 文中提及的人物和组织
人物: Peter Goodman, Rachel Abrams, Josephine Mully, Fatu Manor
公司/组织: The New York Times, USAID, UNICEF, World Food Program, Mercy Corps, US Central Command, US Navy
媒体/书籍: The Daily