>> Hey, Adam, how's it going? Good, thanks. >> Thanks so much for joining us. I thought we would meet in a park. Since we're talking about trees, it seems adequate. Let's start with the basics. What is nature based solution? >> Yeah, so a nature based solution is when we use nature intentionally to address some kind of societal challenge.

Adam: So the challenges can vary. You can lots of problems to solve for society, but so you can kind of do it either. There's typically three different types of nature based solutions where you can either restore nature that's already there, just conserve nature that's there, or just, you know, install an entirely new park or create a whole new forest. So build something from scratch.

>> You make this argument of intentionality that we need to start thinking about nature based solutions. Why is it important in urban areas like the one that we're in? We're in the city of Toronto right now. We are in a park. But why is it important that we think about it?

Adam: I think it's especially important in urban areas, because these natural environments provide a lot of benefits to people, and these benefits can range from providing an area for recreation or just a comfortable area to sit outdoors. Like right now, it's, you know, a lot more comfortable temperature here than if we were in the middle of the street, something like that.

Adam: So and there's a lot of competing interests in urban environments, which makes it tricky. You know, lots of people want to develop housing, build stores.

Adam: So the intentional part is especially key because there's a lot of competing interests for land uses.

>> All right. I want to break down where we can use nature based solutions when we think about climate adaptation.

>> So we're going to throw some things at you. Sure. Extreme heat. That sounds like an obvious one, but how do trees and nature help with that.

Adam: So it helps kind of cool off the surrounding environment. Also of course trees tend to provide quite a lot of shade. Shade makes things a lot more comfortable as well. And they tend to absorb a lot less heat than built infrastructure.

Adam: So as I talked about earlier, with the road, the road's going to absorb a lot more heat and people are going to feel a lot more heat compared to if they're next to a tree. For example.

>> Let's talk flooding.

Adam: Yes.

>> How does nature based solutions help with flooding?

Adam: Yeah. So in a similar way. So I guess coming back to the evapotranspiration part.

Adam: So trees will absorb a lot of stormwater. So if there's a huge storm then all the trees will absorb that water through their root system and then gradually evaporate that water into the atmosphere. Of course they use some for their own growth as well.

Adam: Also, just if you think of like lawns or soils, that permeability compared to like a road surface really helps absorb the stormwater. So it stops all the stormwater from like overloading the pipes, for example, where you can allow it to just slowly percolate back into the groundwater system.

>> I'm imagining astroturf is not something that we love so much.

Adam: Yeah, it doesn't have all the same benefits. Okay.

>> Air pollution.

Adam: Yeah, that's another way. So if you can continuing with the example of a tree. Right.

Adam: So some air pollutants will actually be absorbed directly into the tree. So the tree is like breathing for example. But a whole bunch of other ones like particulate matter will temporarily get attached to the tree's surface.

>> So what are we talking about. Particulate matter.

Adam: You might see on some like air pollution metrics like PM 2.5 or something like that.

Adam: So this stuff's really bad for you if you inhale. So whenever like forest fires the past few years when we get that smoke in this area, you'll be able to see like the particulate matter increasing. And you can feel that when it gets pretty high it's much harder to breathe.

Adam: But some of that actually attaches to the tree and then will slowly get pulled out of the air.

>> All right. We know that trees are pretty and that there are they are home for wildlife. but do people think do most people know that they have these climate adaptations that you sort of mentioned, or is it just sort of something to enjoy and look at?

Adam: Yeah, I think I mean, it's going to depend on the person, right? Some people are a lot more familiar and aware of it than others.

Adam: speaking from I guess from the municipality's perspective, I think a lot of times they will have quite a bit idea of these things, but they're not always measuring them explicitly.

Adam: So they might they're gonna have people working there who know that trees provide a whole bunch of benefits, and they're trying to promote trees, but they're not necessarily measuring all these things I've talked about, like how much it helps with flooding or air pollution.

>> Does there need to be? Do we need to do a better job at sort of bringing the awareness of not only trees, but other sort of nature based solutions to the general public?

Adam: I mean, bias for me, but yeah, I think so. I think that we are gradually getting a lot better. So I think compared to like 20 years ago, just from me reading the literature and being more familiar with it, these types of topics and themes are really becoming a lot more popular, particularly with climate change, when we're trying to figure out how we can adapt to extreme heat and flooding, especially heat.

Adam: I'm sure everyone here, like we all, recognize that it's getting warmer and warmer over time, so being able to use nature intentionally can really help in that way.

Adam: And I think some people might be like implicitly aware of these things, like, you know, they might enjoy spending time in the park, but they just it might not necessarily click about all the benefits that are being provided.

>> What do we need to do to bridge that little high gap?

Adam: I think education starting honestly like from elementary school. Right.

Adam: I think like outdoor education can be something really important. I always loved being outdoor growing up as a kid, and I think just starting to reconnect, like,

Adam: I remember even when I was, like, I started learning about climate change and like, primary school when I was younger. And these types of things can, you know, we can connect to solutions, talk about.

Adam: It's really easy to connect to, like, you know, pointing the kids while you spend time outdoors. Well, do you like being in some places more than others? And why is that?

>> I want to talk regulations, okay. What's available for developers and planners to sort of incorporate nature when they build?

Adam: Yeah. So there's a whole lot that can go into that. The one thing that I tend to highlight from my past study is green development standards, which is something that's starting to become a lot more popular in Ontario.

Adam: So it started in like the mid like 2000 to 2010 like in there, and it's gradually expanded out to about 14 municipalities now, maybe a little more. Some have been implemented in the past few months I'm not aware of.

Adam: But yeah. So these types of standards allow people when they're proposing to build like a new subdivision or something like that, or a new condo building, how they can make sure that the development is more environmentally friendly, like sustainable. So it factors in aspects related to climate change mitigation and adaptation.

>> You mentioned 14 municipalities. There's over 400 in this province, so I'm sure we're a bit short there in terms of reaching some goals. How do different municipalities go and create their own green development standards?

Adam: Yeah. So there's a there's some wider partnerships. So like the Clean Air Partnership is an organization that's really helped some municipalities bring these forward.

Adam: I think now that there are a lot of examples, people will then look toward the other municipalities that have already successfully implemented them.

Adam: So the Toronto Green Standard was one of the earliest standards that were implemented. And I know that a lot of other municipalities have referenced that standard when they're creating their own.

Adam: So I think just looking toward other examples and building up from there.

>> So you mentioned Toronto, obviously in Toronto. Tell us how the city is working on their standards and how they're sort of incentivising developers to consider nature in their planning?

Adam: Yeah, no, that's a good point. So Toronto is actually one unique in a sense where they actually provide incentives, financial incentives for developers to go beyond minimum requirements, to try to get them to do things that are more sustainable.

Adam: So an example is that so I guess the Toronto Green Standard, you start out there's a tier one. So it's a tiered system.

Adam: And with tier one that's just a requirement for all development applications that come to the city. But then beyond that there's tiers two and three. And those are actually optional.

Adam: But if you achieve those metrics then you get a development charge rebate as part of the development.

Adam: So there is a financial incentive for people to go beyond that.

Adam: And some of the examples of the more optional components, one would be like if you try to quantify how much carbon is stored in the landscape.

Adam: So if you try to do a good job, like incorporating vegetation and having try to help reduce greenhouse gases created from the development so you can get extra credit for that.

>> Now. Sounds obvious that, you know, most developers would go to, you know, tier two and three because there's some money and some savings there. Do we know if they're working in Toronto?

Adam: So there I would say most developers don't try to achieve above the tier one minimum standard.

Adam: that's something that the city has already realized. And they're trying to up the amount of development charge rebate that you get.

Adam: So they noticed I can't remember the dates exactly, but they're so they're upping the the amount that you would get in rebate.

Adam: So yeah, currently I'd say there's a challenge from trying to get developers to go above the minimum requirements.

Adam: And that's where I think having realistic minimum requirements that do achieve like positive environmental outcomes is really important.

>> Since we're talking about tiers, I think it's important if we're talking about municipalities, let's go up a tier. Let's talk about the province. Should there be more of a province wide standard for nature based solutions?

Adam: Yeah, I think that would be helpful because I think municipalities look toward the province for what they consider important. So we have something called the provincial planning statement in Ontario.

>> What's that.

Adam: And then so that's something that's updated semi-regularly. The last time it was updated was in 2024. So last year. And that provides the policy guidelines for all municipalities to follow.

Adam: So then municipalities will then use their own official plans or zoning bylaws that as long as they conform with that provincial planning statement.

Adam: So that kind of sets out the broad agenda for municipalities. And and it covers a whole bunch of different aspects, like how you should protect people from natural hazards. So protect development from natural hazards or, you know, just build things more energy efficient, support transit these types of things.

Adam: But then another part of that is also it promotes like green infrastructure, which is, you know, the trees that we're talking about.

>> Is there more that can be done with that or just looking at it? You mentioned sort of the swath of of sort of guidelines on there. Is it specific enough? Is it intentional in the way that we talk about nature based solutions?

Adam: I think it could be far more intentional with how it supports nature based solutions, because it's it's supportive in the sense that it encourages people to try to incorporate green infrastructure, low impact development, these types of things that encourage, you know, using nature based solutions.

Adam: But it could definitely do a better job by, I guess, directly connecting that to like societal challenges that we have and encouraging those nature based solutions to be intentionally used to combat specific problems.

>> When we talk about regulations, developers across this province are probably like, great, more red tape, more things that we need to go through. The city of Toronto recently had updated and introduced thermal comfort guidelines. Another example of, you know, thinking about how we as this planet gets warmer, how we can incorporate it.

>> But one of the things that criticisms were do these things have teeth? Will they stand? And also, can we, in this housing crisis that we have have more regulations? Can we handle more?

Adam: Yeah, I think that's honestly going to be a question that never goes away. I think there's going to be a constant tension between, you know, what's considered red tape versus what are required studies like required components of development.

Adam: I think that's something that will be constantly negotiated into the future. And that's a key part of planning.

Adam: So I think as we recognize different benefits of different ways that we build, you know, our standards will evolve like what we want to achieve.

Adam: So for example, you know, 30 years ago, no one was really talking about building net zero homes, right?

Adam: And now that's something that's going to be in the building code soon. That's something that's supported by the current provincial planning statement.

>> I live in a neighbourhood in the city where I wish there were more trees. I see a lot of concretes, and I'm sure there are lots of people who might be listening or watching this and go like, well, you know, more trees, more forests means more wildlife, more maintenance, more headaches, more problems. What do you say to those people who can't get past those initial barriers?

Adam: Yeah, I would say that's where it comes back to the education component. I think where we can really share and emphasis that there's pros, there's not only cons. Right.

Adam: So I mean there are definitely always going to be some cons, right. Like, you know, branches will fall and damage property. People will have to clean up leaves, these types of things.

Adam: But there are still those benefits that I think are important to emphasis and reinforce.

>> I myself love raking my leaves, so I will always be out enjoying that. Adam, thank you so much. This was really insightful. Really appreciate it.

Adam: Awesome. Yeah.

Adam: Thank you for having me.