It was an intense time. We had to win football games, but all the rest was on my plate as well. I need a break. And you cannot do that in that business. You cannot say, "Give me a year. See you later."

So, it begs the question, do you think you could ever go back and manage Liverpool again?

It's possible.

So, what would it take? Yeah, you change a club, you change the city, and you arrived at a time when clubs were in a period of dysfunction to bring that club back to its glory. And you do that over and over and over again.

How to win in a very decisive moment, you have to be the best team. And to be the best team, everybody has to buy into that team and walk through fire together. How do I get people to walk through fire? I better go back to the start. Growing up, my mom was very caring. She loved people and my dad had expectations. The problem was I was absolutely useless in most of the things. Even with football, my teammates were better than me and I thought I only can get on that level from the first until last minute. I was a warrior on the pitch. But it made me the guy I am today. And so my team plays a little bit more like a heavy metal band because you have 90 minutes and there's no guarantee to get anything but the only chance to get something is to give your all. So you want to have the maximum success. Don't waste time with holding back.

To understand you and the man and the anomaly that you went on to be in your career and still are. What do I need to understand about your very earliest context where you came from and how can you point out to me how that very early context created the person you are today and that everybody knows you to be.

I think we all are who we are because the environment we we grew up. My dad was a salesman and my mom came from a family and my grandpa had a brewery and she worked there blah blah blah and all this kind of things. So, but her only purpose was her kids. She loved me more than her own life definitely. And my dad had expectations. He loved me as well, but he had expectations where my mom didn't. So, my mom was just happy that I was there and my dad had always something um where he was not really happy with. And all the things my dad wanted me to do, I love doing. So, he wanted me to to to to be a sports guy. each sport, tennis, skiing, football, that was his life. So he wanted that his son is good at that and he loved doing it. If I would have been, I don't know, sitting at home and and drawing or whatever, he would every day take me out and say, "Go outside and and and and play something." But then pretty quick when I became better, it was never good enough. And he always So that was the process. So that's how I was brought up. That's him.

Was he a tough tough man?

Yeah. I It's not long ago. I never I never got hit by whatever. Never. Never. Never. He was just He wanted to to bring the best out of me. I think that was what he wanted. Tough in a way. Yeah. how people who are brought up in in that time probably but not tough endless that you thought I do you don't want to have to do anything with him no I loved him to bits and he loved me he was very proud but never never said it and these kind of things so was he was a good guy a real good guy but with his son he wanted him to be ambitious and was a bit afraid that I might be not ambitious enough so

competitive man I hear

yeah yeah yeah

so reading about stories of um him racing you on ski slopes and and sprint races and never letting you win.

That's true. Who knows if it was right. Probably it was right. I I don't know. It was not nice in a way. When you tell the story, it's like my god, come on, let the poor boy win or whatever. But you had no chance.

And when you when you look back over the the course of your career, are there moments where you have flashback to lessons that he taught you or principles or values that he taught you that you think, gosh, I got that from my dad?

The one skill I I realized that my dad had without knowing that time. It was a skill he could speak publicly. You don't know that you have that, but I have it. You today I know it. I I don't care if a camera is in my face or whatever. I say what I have to say in that moment um without being too worried what might people think about it if I'm convinced it's right and I I say talking in public is not a problem it's probably from him my law for people unintentionally that's from my mom so this mix of a very confident and a very caring very confident dad and very caring mom is where I was brought up in the middle of

And you wanted to be a doctor before before then. So you were aiming to be a doctor. That didn't work out.

Yeah, that's true.

Why? Why? Why doctor?

No, it was always it was something I wanted to do. So in all this wonderful upbringing, it was pretty clear that money is an issue. Not in a sense that we didn't have enough. We always had kind of enough. But I remember discussions, bad discussions about money, arguments if you want, who spent that, who spent that. I was a little one. I just sat around and listened to it. But there was a moment in my life when I when I realized I have to earn a lot of money that I can sort it all. I want to earn money to not having this kind of discussions with my wife or with the kids or whatever. So it grew as a as a as a thought when you are a young man and you think what could you do with life and for me it was clear I cannot earn my money with football because in my mind I wasn't good enough and then I got surprised by some people they thought oh there's something um that could be interesting.

What did they see in you as a football player? What was it that they they saw in you as a young man?

So in my village I was the best player in my village. So I scored the goals. I was the fastest. All this kind this physical talent. I was really fast. Later on when I studied sport science I could jump far. I could jump high. All these kind of things. So it was a physical talent. I was literally surprised by the approach from from professional football clubs. I didn't think who's coming. So it was like the question was are you number seven from the game before? Yeah. Oh come on let's have a chat. Do you want to come to Frankfurt? That was the question.

I it didn't take long that I met Mark's mom. Yeah. Your son's mom. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then um she got pregnant and um December 88 I became a father.

Were you scared? 20 years old become a father

massively. When I heard she's pregnant I was I wanted to run away go oh god it's not me. So the moment when I when I got aware of the fact that I will be a dad, I was really scared. The night 13th December of December 1988 when Mark was born was the night when I became an adult and the night who changed my life in the right direction. From that moment on, I was always more an adult than all the other people in the in my age group. So they were the university, they were on parties, I couldn't go. They went on holiday. I couldn't I played football, low wages, third division Germany. Had two other jobs, one in the morning, one at night. Um and and playing semi-professional football. That taught me the discipline. I didn't have to learn at home because I had no no jobs to do in the house. So I got it a bit later but um it made me the guy I am today.

Because of that experience when you became a manager yourself did that become a bit of a personal reference point to understand the individuals that you were managing? Because if you were managing a 21-year-old dad versus a 21-year-old that didn't have kids, did you understand them to be different?

Yes, of course. I I I don't, but I say I like people and I'm super curious. Everybody has a story to tell, so I want to hear it.

I think I think I asked that question in part cuz I heard stories that Sir Alex Ferguson would prefer players who had a girlfriend or a wife and kids. And I was I was wondering if there's any truth to that, if they have a different stability or

Oh, it's probably Yeah. There are couple problems you can you can have a great partner married or not and then everything is fine. It's the wrong partner it's not great. You have no partner not great for some and you have too many it's not great. So there are so many things in life. So I haven't never I never thought about that. ... that's not that's one part of of the personality but not the overwhelming or the the most decisive or whatever. So, it's like and you need on the football is a football game. You need the cheeky the cheeky ones as well. So you need them the one who the street smart you need as well they get out of situations in life and on the pitch stuff like this. So it's a mix of everything. That's what I loved about football teams.

I I treated them let me say 50% of the time completely the same and 50% what he needs what he needs what he needs but in front of the other teammates. So people, players came to me, why do you um treat me like that? You would have ne would never say that to him. No, because he's from Argentina, grew up without a window and you are from Munich and everything was fine. You want me to treat you like him? Really? To bring all these people from different areas in the world together, you cannot expect that they all tick the same way. It's just not possible. Growing up in Germany is obviously different to growing up in Seneagal. It is different.

You want a um a football team full of different skill sets, full of different talent, full of different personality. want that because that's what you need. That what makes you unpredictable. But then you put just one I don't know helmet over it and say so that's for all of you. That's how we go. There are moments in the game where they have to act like that. In all the other in all the other moments they have to be themselves. So treat them like that.

This is one of the most shocking, counterintuitive um ideas that I've that that that I heard from players with other managers specifically cuz I've just interviewed so many of Sar Alex Ferguson's former players. One of the shocking things they all said was that he treated people differently. And to hear you say the same thing as well, it it it really is the opposite of what you hear in business. In business, you hear that you have to be a consistent leader, that you have to be consistent, treat people the same.

I think I think in business in life it's the same. So to lead that's one number one thing you lead yourself so that's the first one in the morning you stand up you have to kick your own but say come on it's not the greatest day but anyhow we go and then then the people you lead you need to understand to do it properly. So now that means you you you talk to them, you listen to them, you ask them where are you from, what's your background, what are we doing here and there blah blah and why did you that and stuff like this. So it means it's already in that conversation it's clear he's different to the other guy. It's not about the rules like punctuality early in late out not about these kind of things but how can we get the best out of people if you treat them all the same? It's it's crazy. For me, it's super important that you really pick the individual from where it stands, not from where you want it to be. No, actually where it actually is.

the job of a leader is to make the target the aim the final destination whatever that clear like the sun that everybody's automatically going there and you don't have to push them every day and say by the way there's the sign that's around there so that that they know it on the way there you support them in different in different ways

it's not so important what you say it's much more important what they need to hear it's not them telling them what they want to hear no what they need to hear to deal with their situation so that's what leadership means not just telling them off for whatever that doesn't work that doesn't work try to understand why and that was I I love that part in my job

Was there certain players in your team that you felt you could be tougher with and others that you felt you could never really be tough with because that would make that would hurt their performance.

Yeah. Of of course of course you have the Sadio Mani and and and Mosala are two top examples. So to be successful as a football team you have to organize a football team to get stability. To get stability you need to find a way to defend properly and together. If you have that based on that they can start flying then we then let's talk about the football part. So and now there are obviously no defenders but we were famous for our pressing and counter pressing. I talked a lot to them and it was and the the way we spoke about it was just 100% clear. You want to win more often than not. You want to have the maximum success. You want to be able to become the best team in England at one point. Yeah. Okay then do that. Come on.

You eventually become the manager of mines. Yeah, you're my age when you get that job and the the former manager's been sacked. The club have never gotten to the Bundesliga, the the first division in Germany. You don't have experience managing a club of this size or scale previously. The chairman comes to you, the owner comes to you and says they want you to do the job. Why did they want you to do the job?

Because I didn't find anybody else in the short in a short period of time. So, we played Sunday and the next game was on Wednesday. The idea was just to do that game. ... and then they called me and for that game can you do it and I said yeah yeah I can do it and I did it and we won the game and they didn't find a manager so we had Sunday and other games we the first game we won 1 nil the second game we won 3-1 yeah from the first seven games we won six and Drew won so and we stayed in the league pretty comfortably.

What was your approach going into that? you you go from being a player to a manager of these boys like what what what's in your mind are you thinking

but we had wang very very the best the best manager we all had when we were at mines she was exceptional ... comes in implements four in the back, ball orientated defending. We did nothing else than that. And we changed overnight into the one opponent nobody wanted to play against. We were like machines. ... Then Wolfkang left and none of the other coaches could do that. None. There was no connection to the coaches after Wolffrang. So I was one of the players who benefited massively from Wolffkang Frank and now I arrived and the only thing I did when I the two sessions I had were both exactly about that 44 for two ball orientated movements

But I like these moments. I like to find a reason why it makes sense that why we give our absolute all in a moment like this. Why we don't invest only the the minimum? Why invest the maximum? Why we would regret it if we don't do it? How better life is if we do it? How much more fun it is if we do it. I love I love these moments and probably something like that. I told them and from that moment on nobody wanted to play against us anymore. So like we were like wow animals. It was great. It was a fantastic time. Same team um pretty much uh changed overnight.

How important did that prove to be this idea of making sure that the players you have throughout your career had belief in themselves?

That's all it's all about that. It's not football. It's life. ... of course it makes sense you believe in yourself but not everybody can do that. So if but then if you meet somebody who helps you with that who has a perspective who can see something in you yeah then tell tell them why you should keep it for yourself. Oh my god I think he's a talent she's a talent whatever she's good at that he's good at that. Yeah. Why we don't tell each other? So where's the problem?

I try to create a situation to make sure that the player if if they are not confident yet they are confident but you know there are moments when they lose it confidence is like described it once as a little flower and constantly somebody steps on it ... if you would believe as much in yourself as I do that will be a start. But as long as you cannot do that just trust me. So you are good because I don't work with not with other I don't waste time. And it's true. I don't. So, I really I really see something and if I see it, I'm patient enough to work on it. ... But of course, the the idea is that that one day I help you learn flying, but in the end, you have to fly yourself. Obviously, I cannot I cannot do that for you.

But before winning that I I learned how to lose. This is very important. I would say I think that's again to learn even though you want to be as successful as somehow possible you have to accept that from time to time you lose and then keep then when you then keep going you have a good chance if you learn from it a defeat is a defeat if you don't learn from it if you learn from it it's a very very important information

When I spoke to Jamie Carrager, I I asked Jamie Carrager actually this earlier this morning. I said I said to him, you know, what what was he curious about with you? And this is actually what he said. He said there were so many near misses in your career, whether it was in the Champions League or I remember when you were headto-head with Man City that in that season and you were one point shy of winning the league. And his question was, he's fascinated with how you you were so good at dealing with the disappointment of near misses because sometimes near misses can people. They can turn them into a downward spiral. ... But it appears through your career that near misses ended up being positive forces for you.

what made me the person I am these people of course mom dad my faith as well so and I I knew always that I'm not here to get everything I am here to give everything so ... I don't see myself as a constant winner in my in my mind. I see myself as a constant tryer. ... it's all about dealing with the things you want and not get and then you want it more and or or not anymore or whatever. So, the moments were not great, but I learned it here. ... If you don't get the result you want, try again and try harder.

did did Manchester United ever call?

Yeah. Yeah, I spoke to them. So in the year when Alex retired, they they spoke to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course they were interested at one point. ... It was wrong time, wrong moment for me. I I was in had a contract at Dortmund. I wouldn't have left. Not really for for for nobody in that time.

So, it was you that turned down Manchester United, not Manchester United turning you down.

Yeah. That way. So I Yeah. So

why why would a guy like Manchester United's often known as the biggest club in the world? Why wouldn't you take that job? Why didn't you take that job?

This is typical. We are now not in private in a private space. So there are some reasons what the people in that conversation told me which I didn't like. ... So United was that big. We get all the players we want. We are like we can this we get him. We get him. We get him. We get him. And I was sitting there. So I it was not my project. It didn't feel like my it was a wrong time but on top of that it was not my project. ... It wasn't about the football. It was No, not at all. And I sat there and was like, "Nah, I'm not sure. That's not for me." So, and then the pure pure football project comes up with with Liverpool

What what did you observe when you arrived? What was the culture? What was the feeling? And what was your first thought about what you had to do to to to bring that club back to its glory?

I said when I him. Um, nobody likes the team. Not even the team likes the team. ... I like the team. Do I like the team? I knew the players. ... I knew John Hennison. I knew Adam L. I know many plenty players and heard only kind of good enough thought, well, let's see. So, I like the team. So, that's a football team, proper football, super attitude.

the first thing I had to sort is like to organize them so find a way to make sure that they understand that we have chance to win the next football game. We have to do a couple of things for that. ... we started with an organized chaos. So I gave them a few ideas about where we have to where we want to put them under pressure and in that moment now do it. And afterwards we work we talk about it how it worked out because there was no time to train.

If you people have to sh you have to show the people that you want to change something, you have to show the people that you want to achieve something. How we can tell I can tell them but the end you have to show them. So run and and they went for it and I I loved it so much. They loved it so much. It's easy. They all top fit. They want to run. So just show them which direction and it goes. And then we developed step by step our own way of football.

you're known for what they call heavy metal football.

Yeah, but that's Yeah, I know. They asked me about Asen Mena on the comparison and they they think we are similar in a way and I thought what ... if you want to compare us then I'm not sure that's possible because Azen's football is rather like an orchestra and my team plays a little bit more like a heavy metal band

But it's true. Yes, somehow. It is true. And I know that more than anyone as a Manchester United fan watching. I'd hate playing your football teams because they they ran so much. They were so passionate. They never let up. They would they could always win in the last minute and the intensity was you were just anxious as a as a football fan watching the games because it was so fullon and it was overwhel. It's almost overwhelming emotionally.

Don't waste time with holding back. I I don't understand it. We have nothing to do 90 minutes, 95 minutes, whatever. ... You have to understand this game is only that fun for us because all the people are watching it. That's why we earn the money. I mean it. ... the only thing we really have to deliver is give your absolute all in a game like that.

and what is the Liverpool way what is inherent in when you come to Liverpool and you are the manager or you are a player what is the thing that you have to do that's specific to Liverpool in order to be successful

you have to understand the community and with the community as a city community as a bigger community around the world and there are so many people and this club went through a lot ... what you have to understand what you have to learn that that mean this club means more to the people than just football so that you you have to understand and that's why what we do is more important than it maybe is somewhere where else that that's the responsibility responsibility we always took and understood 100% our boy the players understood to play for Liverpool is not just a club where you play during your career it's the club and it's something you will definitely remember for life

Why did you leave? Why did you leave Liverpool? I I watched your videos announcing your departure so many times and I was almost trying to read between the lines.

my expectation of myself is I'm I I'm I'm the energy giver to everybody in in this environment. ... I have to be on top of absolute top of my game to be the guy who deserves to be the Liverpool manager. And that's what I said when I said day when I feel huh I know that anymore then I don't so that I say okay let's wait until everybody sees it and then they can give me the sec and la all these kind of things I cannot do it like that ... I realized I need a break, whatever. I need to have something else. And you cannot do that in that business. You cannot say, "Ladies and gentlemen, give me a year. See you later."

there was a time there was no Richard, no Michael, no Julian Ward. So there was just me sitting there um like on top of all the the things and we had to win football games but all the rest was on my plate as well. It was an intense time.

do you think you could ever go back and manage Liverpool again? Is that within the realm of possibilities?

I said I will never coach another team, a different team in in England. So, that means if then it's Liverpool. Yeah. So, yeah, theoretically it's possible.

What would it take theoretically for you to want to do that psychologically?

I don't I don't even know exactly. I just there must be I I love what I do right now. I don't miss coaching. ... I'm 58 that's from your perspective old from other perspective from the other side it's not that old that means I could make the decision in a few years. I don't know. Do I have to make the decision today? I will not coach again. But thank God I don't have to do that. I can just see what future brings.

Is there anything else that we haven't touched upon that is central to your idea of getting the best out of a group of people?

create the best team possible. And I mean in an understandable team like really there's there there must be a reason why this team wins and not the other team ... don't waste time with walking next to each other, not knowing anything about each other, not being bothered about the problems of each other, not being interested about each other. No, no, no. I want to grow together. And it was my job to help them to grow to create situation where they could do that. ... we have to find a reason why we deserve it more than others. Yes.

how do I get people to walk through fire

You have to create a culture an an environment a situation uh a wbee where everybody realize this is special. The underlining message is this is special and now let's go for it. This is worth it. This it means really more to all of us that we really can fight more for it. ... The way we we had we we the way we and that people can say that's in our club the same but the way we interacted in the training ground with the kitchen stuff with with the respect we we showed every day with the kidmen with the gardeners with all the people there there. That was for me most important because it just you just realize that's the the respect you show is the respect you get.

How is not being respectful to the gardener going to lose you the Champions League? What is the the through line?

I believe just in if you cannot do that, if you don't appreciate what thing what what other people do, then you cannot appreciate what your teammate is doing. If you don't that's just a little sign. ... my general understanding from football team is to become the best football team you can be. This is the this is as important as tactics. As important as tactics. They can have the best tactics and the guys don't respect, don't like each other, nobody will see them ever. Ever. So, if the worst tactics, but they love each other, boy, they still can win. That's possible.