Hi everybody, I'm Nicolola Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sover and Wealth Fund and in today we are in really good company with Amanda Blanc, the CEO of Britain's leading insurance company, Aviva.

Now this is the kind of company that ensures your home, your car, and helps you save for retirement. They serve 25 million people globally and 21 million people in the UK alone. Amanda took over in July 2020 and has led what is described as a complete transformation and we're going to hear all about it. Uh so Amanda, wonderful to have you on the broadcast.

Now thanks Nikolai, really great to see you.

Just briefly before we start, what does Aviva actually do in short? All right.

In short, well, I mean, basically, it protects people. It protects businesses um from bad things that can happen. And also, it looks after people in their hour of need and when they want to do things like retire. So, you know, we we say with you today for a better tomorrow. That's our purpose. And I suppose that encapsulates everything that we do.

Now, you're both an insurer and a major investor. How could you explain that dual role?

Yes. So, so obviously um as an insurer we have a big balance sheet so over 400 billion pounds and so we need to put those assets to really really good use and we do that by investing. We're a big investor in the UK so you know we're we're a big believer in the UK so we invest in UK infrastructure in UK guilts I mean also in private assets but we also invest in in corporate debt and and in other things. So I think it's about getting the best return over a very long period for our shareholders and obviously also for our customers.

When you compare Aviva with other insurance companies, what is it that make you special?

Well, I think for for us, what makes us special?

Apart apart, of course, from having a wonderful CEO.

Oh no, no, no, no. But I I mean I think it is about the people that work for Aviva. They make a really big difference. If you think about an insurance company, it doesn't really sell anything tangible like a handbag or a pair of shoes. It basically sells a promise to pay and so I think you know that that makes us special but really if you think about what's our USP it is being diversified we will basically take you from your junior savings account your junior ISA at a very young age to your equity release mortgage when you know when you're thinking about your later stages of your life and everything in between and there are very very few there are no insurers in the UK that do that and there are very insure few insurers now across the world that do that

Now you and I we've been in the jobs for pretty much exactly the same time 5 years now you've totally transformed Aviva what are the key decisions that you have made

So I think the key decisions came with actually within the first month so I was in the fortunate position of being on the board for six months before I became the CEO and really the the big decision was around focusing the portfolio if I looked at Aviva and you know we had positions all across the world but we didn't have scale positions and coming from the background of working at for much of my career working with h onre dcast. You know, one of his big mantras was you you need to be top three in the market that you're in in a in order to be able to influence and to get the benefits of scale in that market. So, we took decisions very early on about focusing the portfolio. We sold eight businesses for8 billion pounds within the first sort of 12 to 24 months and by doing that we were able to meet our second objective which is about delevering the organization also returning some money to shareholders and actually what was good was by by selling off those businesses where we didn't have scale positions we basically showed the strength of the core business in the UK Ireland and Canada and and all you know all the real benefits of being scale players in our market really started to shine M

Amanda, it's quite a luxury to be on the board 6 months before you take over SEO. So, were you sitting there with a piece of paper? It's just like I'm going to change this, I'm going to change that.

No, I mean, no, it it wasn't like it wasn't like that at all. Um so I started in the December 2019 and um obviously then we went straight into into co and the uh you know we we appointed a new chair and and then you know that the CEO stepped down and so there was a real opportunity and of course as you're sitting on the board you and as a pre and I'd been an executive for a long time before that you're always looking at it with an angle of you know what would I do what could I do differently um and you know I really felt that by making some real decisive decisions around the portfolio that to me was obvious, you know, everything in my DNA was telling me that that was the right thing to do. And then you saw the sort of, you know, 20 20 million customers or probably wasn't as many at that point. The real opportunity to sort of connect all of the benefits through the customer proposition and I felt that that was something really compelling, but yet it was it's always very frustrating, isn't it, when you haven't got your hands on something you want to sort of be able to do.

What was the biggest challenge in this transformation? Um so I I mean COVID was

a big challenge because obviously you know effectively I was running the operation where there were a few of us in the our old building in St. Helens in in in the city basically you know making making decisions and using teams calls and everything else. So that was a blessing and a curse. I mean it was difficult in that I like to be out in the business. You like to see what's going on but at the same time it also meant you could really focus your attention. You could really get things done. So I think that was a challenge. And then of course there's the culture of the organization. Um you know pe people were used it was quite slow in terms of its decision making. So you know there was sort of you know increasing the pace. Um and then look I think thirdly being absolutely honest and by the way thank you for being a shareholder uh in in Aviva. You know it was it was the investor confidence. You know when I was speaking to investors they were basically saying really you know Aviva's been a big disappointment. um we've sort we've sort of had three dividend cuts between 2010 and 2020 why would we invest you know what you know what's different and so it was really you know m making sure that we were able to tell that equity story

You know I I somehow think it's easy it was easier to make change during covid than if co hadn't been there because you know people were not uh in the office all the time they couldn't talk to all their colleagues all the time and so in terms of corporate culture I probably think it was a bit easier to change but

Well I I I I I don't think that's untrue. I think that the problem was if you're if you like to physically sort of sit with people and listen to them and understand what's going on, which I do. Um I I had to find new ways of doing that. So, you know, jumping into teams calls, doing sort of virtual town halls, getting a sense of the organization that way. In a way, you had to trust a different instinct. So I I do genuinely think that in terms of decision making co was definitely beneficial because you could really just crack through things particularly if you think about selling businesses you know previously you'd have had to jump on planes go and meet people whereas this in this instance you were basically having team meetings moving on getting documents agreed getting decisions taken that was definitely easier. Talking about decisions, you um bought direct line for3.7 billion pounds. Why was that important for you to do?

Yeah. So I think look when we looked at our position in the UK we had scale positions across you know most of our product lines but we looked at the opportunity as a customer focused business for uh in in the retail home and motor book and we really thought actually when we looked at direct line genuinely we felt that we could run that business better because we had scale because we had the ability to invest in technology because we had the ability to use digital and you know the the the AI transformation that we'd already undertaken, we could reuse that. We felt that we actually could deliver a better return for shareholders by running that business um ourselves. And so, you know, as as you would expect, we did look at a number of other alternatives at the time, but the actual benefits of the expense synergies, the capital synergies, and the customer benefits, they sort of all came together and it became a no-brainer really. And so, yeah, last last November, December, um we made the bid and and we completed the deal in the 1 of July this year. M some insurance companies focus in on one product line whilst you cover the whole spectrum. What are the advantages of doing that?

So I think in 2020 a lot of people said to me um you know a monoline businesses are the way forward. You know effectively Aviva is trying to do too much diversified businesses you know they they don't work anymore. I I felt very differently from that. You know, for for one thing, having all of the customer data and having the customer through their life cycle felt to me important, but genuinely the diversification benefits for capital are significant when you have various lines of business. And I think what we have seen over the last five years is diversified businesses have actually done better. And if you think about investment, so if we think about the investment that will come with generative AI, you know, being able to spread that across 20 product lines and not just have to invest it in one or two definitely makes a big difference. So you know, I I I I think that people think very differently today about diversified businesses than they did maybe five years ago.

Now you have experiences from other insurance companies too, right? You've been at Zurich and and AXA before Aviva. What have you taken from those companies into Aviva? So I think I mean you definitely take something from every organization that you work in. I mean

actually aviva is quite an emotional one for me because I actually started in Commercial Union which was a founding company of Aviva. So you know in many respects it's I ended it up in the same company as I started with but I worked for most of my career if if we count it in year terms with AXA you know in two for two different periods and I learned a huge amount from that you know the business the benefit of running a global business a diversified business and I think the opportunity to work with I think what one one one of the best leaders which was on Dash I mean he certainly was he transformed AXA you know he made that into a really huge company and then Thomas has obviously taken it from strength to strength. But I think the ability to work with great leaders to understand, you know, what they do that makes makes an organization great. I think that that was that was really important to me.

Do insurance companies attract a certain type of people.

I don't mean that.

How should I put it? Uh people who just put it just put it the way you want. I mean people who study actuarial sciences are not are not like what should we say? uh you know uh rock and roll type people are they

Well I mean I look so what should I say to that well first of all I'm a history graduate so you know I mean so I think I sort of break break the mold of that and if I look around my exco we've got all sorts of different people from with different degrees talent I actually think that people do not understand what an insurance company does you know we started off by talking about it but in essence you can be in marketing you can you can be an actury you can be an accountant You can be in sales, you can be in underwriting, you can be in claims, you can be in supply chain. You know, literally an insurance company does everything. And so when I'm out talking to school ch school kids about insurance, you know, I say try to say it's not about the motor insurance adverts that you see on TV, there's a huge amount more to it than that. And when I look at the people at Aviva, you know, they are they come from all different backgrounds, different social mobilities, but people are really excited about insurance today. Nikolai, I think because if you think about the world that we're operating in, digital and data, I mean, insurers have more data probably than most other organizations in the world. If we think about, you know, somebody's pension, somebody's home insurance, somebody's car insurance, and then connecting all of that data together, we're able to attract really talented data scientists, and then really talented digital people who can sort of put that together in propositions for customers. But do you

think people in Aviva are more like people at Zurich and AXA than they are uh compared to people in let's say uh GSK, Diardio or BP? Um I don't know. I

mean look I think definitely insurance is a different business. I think you're not selling an actual physical product. So you're not manufacturing anything I in essence. So I think you do attract, you know, there is more, I guess, um, you see, you've got a lot more intellectual power in that, you know, you've got a lot of people that really need really need to think deeply, but we've also got a lot of people here who really care passionately about customers. And I think that's no different to people in GSK and and and and BP and all of those other companies. Definitely the things we do are different, but actually underneath it, people are genuinely the same, aren't they? you know, they come into work, they want to do a great job for their customers, for the organization that they work in, and actually sometimes I think we can sort of label people that they are this type of person or this type of person, but actually they're they're really not underneath it. They really just want to do a good job.

Yeah. No, I I share that uh I share that positive attitude. Um what what are the most important regulatory pressures you are facing? What what what kind of regulatory pressures are irritating you a bit? Ah, so I mean it's really

interesting because obviously having gone through um the direct line deal this year, we've actually had huge support from all of the regulatory authorities. I mean look I know that you don't hear CEOs saying that very often but if we think about the P, the FCA, the CMA, you know, to be able to get those three approvals within six months, you know, that was really quite an achievement. And I think it showed some of the regulatory um you know power coming coming through or some of the changes in the regulatory attitude coming through. But look you know if I think about the last number of years we've had big changes in terms of our solveny UK rules. You know this was the postrexit eventually we get to what the new solveny rules are. I think those have been positive for insurance companies from an FCA perspective the sort of conduct regulator. I think we have had some challenges. You know, we've had challenges around new the implementation of new consumer duty. It's been, I think, a lot more expensive than everybody thought it was going to be. It's been a lot more bureaucratic than everybody thought it was going to be. But I think we're through the end of that now.

Um, but I but I I do think that we've definitely seen a change in attitude from the regulator. some of the most recent, you know, announcements around encouraging people to take advice because only 9% of people in the UK actually take advice when it comes to their sort of retirement. You know, the the regulator realizes that maybe some of the previous things that they had done had stopped people from taking advice. We've now got more more rules being consulted on that will help with that. I I look I'm an optimist and I feel that some of these changes are going to make a positive difference for customers and a positive difference for you know the way that we operate the business.

How do you read the health of the UK consumer now?

So look I think the health of the UK consumer if I think about our our experience you know so we have a we have the biggest wealth platform over 200 billion pounds of the of of assets. So we're a big workplace pension provider and a and a big you know people save onto the um the advisor platform. I think for our customers they we have seen really good resilience. I mean there is also obviously the benefit that insurance is the last thing that people will sort of drop if they're in a sort of um in a challenged environment but we are not taking calls into the contact center of people saying we can't afford our insurance can you can you help us we were during periods of of COVID seeing some of that but we're not seeing that today but I think that I think in essence though what you know if we think about our as you know we are mass market you still have this issue in the UK that there there are lots of people that you know don't own cars that are in that are in a desperate desperate situation and we see that through the work that we do in our social action. So the work that we do with the citizens advice bureau the cit the work that we do the money with money advice service there what we see is that people who don't save you know who don't have money to save and those people who don't save into a pension they are struggling but they have always been struggling and I think you know what we're trying to do there is to really help them to think about how they can manage their lives.

How do you get people to save more for retirement? Well, I think there's a number of things. I think f first of

all, understanding in schools that people need to understand that, you know, you're today if you are going to retire, you're not going to have a defined benefit pension. You're only going to have a defined contribution pension. And in the UK, 15 million people will not be able to retire well. So, I think getting that education, it needs to start young and then I think it needs to carry on through um through their working life. I think the government can help with that. technical eye if I think about you know things like autoenrollment age bring the age down from 22 to 18 where you start saving and increase the contribution from what it is today at 8% to 12%. These are things that we know will make a difference. Um, so I think it's a combination of taking individual responsibility, employers can help with education, definitely, you know, the government can help with policy. Um, so I think it's a combination of all of those things. And then I think encouraging investors to think about not just sort of taking the default pension fund and just investing in the safest assets, but thinking about investing in things like private assets that over the longer term will give a better return.

Moving on to some of the changes we're seeing just now. How is AI changing the insurance business?

Oh my gosh, massively. I mean, if I think about Aviva, um, you know, we we've got about 150 use cases on on AI. I mean, look, we are very big users of AI. So, if we think about our motor pricing, we've been using AI for over 10 years, machine learning, and like 98% of our retail products are priced using AI. So for instance, if I'm 18 years old and I buy a new Ferrari, I bet I pay a high price, right?

Yeah. I mean, you you probably would struggle to ensure that, Nikolai. I think an 18year-old driving a Ferrari, I mean, is that really responsible? I don't know, you know. Um, but yeah, I

mean, we we've been using all of data and machine learning for a very very long time. If you think about how how competitive and dynamic the UK market is, we we everybody's sort of constantly using different models to get to your best pricing point. But if I think about some of the more exciting things, you know, in our claims world, for example, um, previously a customer would have been on calling us to check where a claim is in the process. They'd have got through to a handler. A handler would have taken details from them, looked through all the screens of all the different systems. Today we've we've we've basically used AI models to basic to to to predict the likely reason why the customer is calling so that when the customer gets through on the call they b they're basically speaking to a handler who can say I can see where you are in the claims process. You know they've done all the fraud checks using AI models and they can basically help the customer with the claim rather than spending the first 5 10 minutes of the call taking all of the details. So I think that that use case can apply to very many products and so that combination I think insurance is perfectly set to take real advantage of AI.

How is climate changing the insurance business?

Well I mean look I think um I think David Atenburgh has recently said something that the climate is sending out distress signals to to the world and if we think about our business in Canada last year we had you know six cat events within about four weeks. cat event being

catastrophe, right?

Sorry, but being a catastrophe event. Sorry, talking in my insurance job and um good good that you knew. Fantastic. Um you know, so so essentially you had you had wildfires, you had hail storms, you had flooding all within, you know, the period of four weeks. So that obviously affects insurers because we have to price for that and we have to be able to model that. We have to manage our exposures and we have to really think about the zones in which we can underwrite and the capacity to which we can underwite. So effectively it matters a lot to us. Climate is really really important to us and you know mitigating some of that climate change is really part of of what we do. And then if we think of us as an investor we have you know climate tech funds in our Aviva investors business that's about offering I guess investment to those companies. We're trying to help with mitigating that. So climate climate tech um investments. So I think it matter it matters a lot.

Yet politicians in part of the world don't think it's happening.

No no I appreciate I appreciate that and I appreciate also that you know maybe the transition is going to happen in a different way than perhaps we anticipated it would in 2019 2020 when I think everybody was incredibly gung-ho. you know people were not driving, people were not flying because of COVID and therefore everybody thought the transition was going to be extremely quick right now. I think now we have a different view. We have much more focus on energy security. But irrespective the transition will happen at some point. I think the question is just when and the question is ensuring that you know companies, countries, businesses, people do start thinking about how they can mitigate some of the impacts of climate change on them. I don't think that changes

What are the type of risks you will you will no longer insure

because because of the climate

Well I think to some extent the UK has struggled with flooding. So for example um if we think about about flooding and this was a 10 15 year ago issue in the UK lots and lots of flooding events and people were finding that they could not get insurance and that is because houses were being built on flood planes or being built in areas where biodiversity had been sort of you know trees had been taken away so rivers were flooding so so I think that flooding is some of the areas where we struggle in certain areas because of the almost inevitability of flooding happening to be able to ensure that and you know so in the in in the UK we have a scheme called flood which is a sort of insurer governmentbacked scheme to provide insurance for those areas but not interestingly for houses built after I can't remember the exact date I think it's 2001 because then at that point it was known so I think those are the areas where you have to really think about that and then you have to obviously manage your exposure in other areas to say you know for some risks you know we're not going to insure the first 100,000 if you think it's a business or something like in certain areas is so that customers take some of that risk themselves. You know, I use always a great example that when when I was um working at AXA, there were quite a lot of flooding events in the Cambria area. We had a lot of customers there and people would rebuild their houses and they'd be rebuilding it, you know, their kitchens for the third time, but they'd still be putting in the wrong flooring, they'd still be putting in wooden um kitchen units and they'd still be putting plug points down on the floor. and you know you you'd say you have to rebuild better and so that you can recover more quickly and so I think encouraging that is also really important.

Moving on to leadership uh what is good leadership to you? Um well f first of

all I think uh listening as much as talking uh being able to communicate really well uh quick and decisive decision making but really importantly good follow through on that decision making

and what's the best way to follow through because you you have been uh some people call you the execution queen. Um what does what is it what is good follow-up and good execution imply? How do you get there?

So, so many times you see um I I don't know about you, you must see it all the time. You hear leadership presentations and you hear strategies and people say, "I've got this great strategy." Um and you look at the slides and you think, "Yeah, that sounds really, really good." And then, you know, you sort of look back five years later and go, I wonder what happened with that. You know, and um and I I think strategy is great, execution is better. Um, so you know I think you can if you execute well on a sort of 80% there strategy you would probably do better than you have you have a 100% brilliant strategy and don't follow through on the execution. What does it mean? It means you know having very clear objectives for absolutely everybody in the business from me to the you know to every single person in the contact center so that there's a real flow through can everybody connect with what the the principle and focus objectives of the business are regular monitoring of the performance. So, you know, with with my CFO, Charlotte Jones, I mean, she's phenomenal. You know, we have great performance management meetings with the business, regular reviews. Are you doing what you said you were going to do? If not, why? What has changed? What do we need to do differently to get to a better outcome? I think that constant review, really caring. So, I I talked to you about customer. We say the customer is at heart of the business. Are all the actions therefore in the business around the customer? We start every exco with a with a with a you know complaint or a compliment from customers. We do customer closeness sessions listening to our customers at an exco level at a board level. So I think it's just making sure that your actions match your words. I mean it doesn't sound that difficult and yet I see so many organizations that don't do that.

How do you motivate people?

Well I think success is a big motivator you know show showing them that in small bits. So at the beginning in ter the motivation at Aviva was basically giving them the confidence that I believed that we could do this and then by starting to do some of the actions to show that actually I was serious about this. That's very motivating for people if they see that they're working for an organization that is doing what it said it's going to do. That's highly motivating. People care about customers really focusing on that. People care about leadership, their own development, their own careers. Are we focused on those things? are we taking them seriously? And then really empathizing, understanding the issues that they're they're dealing with. If we think of, you know, the contact centers, you'd often go to the contact centers and and you'd sit with people and they'd say, you know, I'm trying to phone this number, connect this call, nobody answers, nobody listens. Actually taking that problem away and solving it.

I think that's really, really motivating for people. They think, "Oh, right. Okay. We've got leaders who are going to do what they say. That's great. I like that."

You had your first leadership position when you were 29. Now you are more than 29 now. Uh h not much. What the devil? How has how has your leadership style changed with age?

Oh, I think I I I'd like I use the expression every day is a school day. And I think your leadership style does change. I mean there are things that are the same that that ability to communicate, that desire to communicate, to simplify the story. I think that is the same. But you learn so much you know uh you learn so much about for example you know the way you connect your te select your teams uh you know I think at the age of 29 you might take a little longer to make a people decision even though you sort of know the right decision to make but you might take a little bit longer today I think you have to you trust your judgment a lot more quickly you've seen the the movie run before and you're like yeah I've seen this movie run this movie doesn't end well let's make a decision you know early on I think Those are the things you learn. And I think also that ability to just step back. Um, you know, and trust the team around you. You you you are much I'm much more empowering today than I would have been then. You know, I think you can identify brilliant people. You want brilliant people working for you. You're not in any way threatened by that and you just let them get on with it. I think that's that's different to when you were 29. You probably were a you thought about it a little bit differently then.

You're also known for your kind of direct communication style. Now, it's not something we normally uh think of when we think about uh you know the UK where people are incredibly polite and nice, right? So, how do you how do you communicate in a direct manner in a in a society when where it's not very common?

But I think you can be I think you can be nice and be direct. So, you know, I I don't believe in being horrible. I I mean I I just don't think you get anywhere by being nasty or horrible. Effectively, what you what when I give feedback or when we are talking about things here, I always say, you know, we have to be honest, but we have to do it in a nice way. So, be polite, do it nicely, but be honest. There's no point in pretending that something isn't an issue if it is an issue. So I I genuinely feel that you know when I I have oneto ones with my team every month and they have oneto ones with their team and we are we are constantly saying okay what did we do well and what could we do better and I think in in framing the conversation like that you know you always know there's going to be you know something something good but but but also something where we can we can we can work on our development for the future. So, I think you can do it in a nice way. You can do it with a smile on your face. Um, you can you can but you but you but you do honestly like if you're running around the houses trying to get a message through, it takes an awful long time. It's very exhausting and people don't understand and so they definitely appreciate you being more direct.

So, um, uh, personal reflections, you are one of the CEOs who are the most vocal about gender balance. Um, why is that important for you? Well, I mean I mean so first of all I would say I was asked by the government to be the women in finance champion in 2020.

We are part of that movement in Norway by the way and we we think it's great.

You are and now as far as the the women in finance was concerned. What was clear was that you know there was a that there was a problem there is a problem with women in financial services um in the UK which the government actually actually recognized about 10 years ago and set up the women in finance charter and then they you know obviously they have been trying to improve the number of women in financial services roles because the belief is was that by having more diversity around the table you get you ultimately get better decisions. Now I think about that that in diversity in its broadest form but certainly you know it def it will also apply to to gender and so we've been working really really hard with the government with other financial services firms to broaden um the the accessibility of insurance of banking of investment banking to women and it is by broadening that accessibility I think that we can we can bring um a more diverse workforce in

partly because of this work um you were appointed at Dame in January 4. And for the uh listeners who don't know, it's uh uh it's the um it's kind of the um the equivalent of being knighted, right, for um for women. Um and it's a huge thing, right? Um

yes.

In in the in the English society, what what did it mean for you personally?

Um well, first of all, you know, I I was born in the Ronda Valley in South Wales, uh in the UK. My both of my grandparents were minors. I went to a comprehensive school um and I started at commercial union as a graduate traininee not knowing even really what insurance was or thinking about it. So to end up with a damehood um which actually was for contributions to business for contributions to climate and for contributions to gender for those those three things. I mean it went meant the world to me obviously. It was a really it was a really phenomenal um day for me and my family and you know my mom and my my you know my dad had passed away at that point and and I I just know he would have been so proud of that. Um but to just think that you can come from where I came from um you know to to that was was just amazing. And um and I don't take that for granted at all. And you know and I do think that um you know that that that you know for somebody like me when I go out to schools and speak to to the kids and I'll go back to schools I do something called speakers for schools. when I go back to schools that like the school that I went to, you know, for kids to be able to see that it's you can make it in business, you know, from the position that I came from. I think that's really important, too.

I saw a piece of research once which said that if you were kned or appointed a dame uh the results of the company uh deteriorated afterwards because people thought more because people thought more about society and uh uh saw themselves a bit more as a state person and therefore were more hesitant for instance to lay off people. Do you think there is a kernel of truth in that?

No. I mean I I don't I don't think any differently to how I thought before. I mean I don't actually use the title in the office uh or or at all. I mean I you know I I it will get used if I go to dinners by other by other people but I don't I don't do that. If people call me Dam Amanda I will say please don't call me that. Call me Amanda that's my name. Um and and I do think that you know it hasn't one iota changed. If you look at the performance of Aviva, you know, last year, it was better than the performance of Aviva the year before. And we will continue to make the tough decisions as we'll have to make as we go through the integration of direct line and Aviva over the coming months. You know, decisions still need to be taken and it hasn't in one way changed my my approach.

Now you um you often talk about uh the fact that you are from Wales and uh on this wonderful program uh desert island. You even played the national you know uh him

the Welsh national anthem.

Absolutely. What does it mean what does it mean to be Welsh?

Uh I I mean I'm incredibly proud uh of being Welsh. Um so you know Wales is a very small country um you know 34 million people. um which has actually if I think about you know what has happened to it you know there's been no investment really mining was the key industry and obviously the mines were closed quite rightly um you know I mean the way it was done was probably not the way I would have done it but they they were they were closed uh in the 1980s and and ne nothing ever replaced it and so I think you know being Welsh and and coming from that background that does mean a lot to me I'm very very proud of it um I mean obviously you very proud of rugby, very proud of music, um the things that Welsh people are very proud of, but also proud of just the the era that I came from. Um and my my background, my you know, my what my parents achieved and you know what what my grandparents achieved.

Do you think it's a driving force in you? I think the drive I think what is the driving force is that coming from that background and seeing what happened to that community. Um and knowing that nothing replaced the work that was taken away there what there is always in me that that will you know that I will I will do better for myself um than than that because I can um definitely that is a driving force when I saw what was done to a lot of people there and still today you know my mom still lives in in the Ronda Valley and I go back there regularly and you see that it still has not recovered that is definitely a driving force. Yes.

I think the drive I think what is the driving force is that coming from that background and seeing what happened to that community. Um and knowing that nothing replaced the work that was taken away there what there is always in me that that will you know that I will I will do better for myself um than than that because I can um definitely that is a driving force when I saw what was done to a lot of people there and still today you know my mom still lives in in the Ronda Valley and I go back there regularly and you see that it still has not recovered that is definitely a driving force. Yes.

You played a lot of instruments when you were younger. What uh what what's the function of music in your life?

Um all right. I mean, so I played the piano and the clarinet and of course like all good Welsh people, I sang in in the local chapel and in the choir. I think music is just it's a real escape. Um I I love all sorts of music. You know, yesterday I was listening to uh to Chapel Rowan and Sabrina Carpenter. Then I can be also listening to musicals. Um, I'm going to see Hamilton on Friday. I just I just think that music is really it's really important to me. I I love it. In many respects, it's a leveler. Some of the most talented musicians um and and you know, I just I have that real gift, though I don't have the real gift. I had to work hard at it.

But I really respect it as a talent that people that people have. So, and there was always music on in our house. Always. You know, my mom even today, the first thing she does when she gets up at 5:00 in the morning is she will stick on, you know, usually a bunch of opera or or you know, music songs from the musicals or whatever. She'll still be have music on the whole day.

You have a social media channel about your shoes. What is that about?

That was nothing to do with me. I have to say there was about 10 12 years ago and we had there's a insurance conference in Manchester called Bieber and um we we were on our way to this conference and I like wearing different types of shoes and one of my team when I was at Access said I think we should create a we should create um a social media account for your shoes Amanda and I was like oh right yeah okay next thing I knew they had this account and it would basically follow my shoes around the conference you know the different shoes and then of course it became a bit of a thing um but yes It's uh it's just a bit of fun.

Good. What do you read?

Um so look, I used to read loads and loads of novels, business books. Today I I'm more of a podcast listener, I have to say, including your very own good podcast. I must have listened now to about 15 or 20 20 of them. But I I think that listening to the podcast, it's a way of sort of, you know, finding out what's going on. So rest is politics. Um I I I I really like that where you're sort of listening, you're listening to the debates. Um at the at the same time as you can sometimes be doing something else. I can be on the treadmill or I can be on my bike or doing something else. So I think it's quite an efficient use of time. So I I I really love that.

Lastly, we got um many thousand young listeners. What is your best advice to young people?

Well well first of all I think um build up your resilience. I think it's tough for young people today. If we think about, you know, the environment in which they're they're they're growing up in social media, you know, the constant feedback, um the, you know, whether it's climate or the transition, the change in workforce regenerative AI, I think they're going to need to be really resilient. So, they should really think about things that they can do to build their resilience. And then the second thing I would say is like take the opportunities that are given to you. There's so many times that people overthink things. You know, sometimes things will work out and sometimes they will not. But take opportunities because you just never know where they're going to end up. So whether that's at school, go to different clubs, try singing, try musical instruments, try different sports, just take those real opportunities and you just never know what might happen.

Well, Amato, you're a wonderful example of somebody who's taken all the opportunities and really uh made so much out of it. Uh it's been a real pleasure talking to you. Very, very impressive. Thank you.

Thank you, Nikolai. Real pleasure talking to you too. Thank you.

Thanks.