声音的力量与倾听的挑战

Julian Treasure: The human voice. It's the instrument we all play. It's the most powerful sound in the world probably. It's the only one that can start a war or say I love you. And yet many people have the experience that when they speak, people don't listen to them. Why is that? How can we speak powerfully to make change in the world?

Julian Treasure: 人类的声音，是我们所有人都在演奏的乐器。它可能是世界上最强大的声音，是唯一能发动战争或说“我爱你”的声音。然而，许多人都有这样的经历：当他们说话时，人们却不听。这是为什么？我们怎样才能有力地发言，从而改变世界？

主持人: Since you've become known as an expert on speaking and sound and the actual sound of your voice, there's a lot of pressure on the sound of your voice.

主持人: 既然你已经成为演讲、声音以及你真实嗓音方面的专家，那么你的嗓音本身就承受着很大的压力。

Julian Treasure: And of course, today you're interviewing me on a day when I've got a croaky voice, which happens to the best of us. So, I apologize for that. I'm taking eucalyptus things. I've got lots of medications which will help with the condition, but you have to go with what you've got on the day. But there are exercises you can do to improve the voice and to, you know, it's like going to a gym and working on your muscles and then you've got more strength when you're out doing anything. It's the same with the voice.

Julian Treasure: 当然，今天你采访我的时候，我的嗓子有点沙哑，这在我们所有人身上都可能发生。对此我深表歉意。我正在服用桉树叶相关的东西，也吃了很多药来缓解症状，但你总得面对当下的状况。不过，有一些练习可以改善嗓音，就像去健身房锻炼肌肉一样，锻炼后你在做任何事情时都会更有力量。嗓音也是如此。

内容与表达：同等重要

主持人: It's also interesting to me because I think that often when people think about how to talk so people will listen, they focus kind of exclusively on the content but not on how the words are delivered. It's really interesting that you reframe it so that it's not just what you're saying, it's also how you say it. Both are really important. I asked that question to Chris Anderson actually for my book, How to Be Heard. I interviewed him and I said exactly that. Which is more important, Chris? And he said, "If I had to choose," they're both important. If I had to choose, it's actually content because I will listen to somebody delivering really important or weighty information in a boring way, I'll stay with them. But if somebody is speaking nonsense brilliantly, it's just irritating.

主持人: 这对我来说也很有趣，因为我认为人们在思考如何说话才能让人倾听时，往往只关注内容，而忽略了表达方式。你将其重新定义为“不仅是你说了什么，更是你如何说”，这非常有趣。两者都非常重要。实际上，我在写《如何被倾听》这本书时，也问过克里斯·安德森这个问题。我采访他时，问了他同样的问题：“克里斯，哪个更重要？”他说：“如果非要选一个的话”（两者都重要），“如果非要选，那实际上是内容，因为我会去听一个人用无聊的方式传递非常重要或有分量的信息，我会一直听下去。但如果一个人把废话讲得天花乱坠，那只会让人感到恼火。”

Julian Treasure: So that's true. Nevertheless, it is very frustrating if somebody's giving you a really big gift and doing it badly. And I always say one of the greatest visualizations when you go on stage to give a talk is that you're giving a gift. You know, imagine that you're giving a six-year-old a wonderful present and how you feel at that moment. You have a big smile on your face. You're happy. You're excited. That's how you feel when you're going on stage to give the gift of whatever it is you're going to say to people. That's a wonderful way to be. And it helps enormously to have that visualization. And it moves you away from being concerned about yourself and much more into a relationship with the audience which is generous and happy and based in love.

Julian Treasure: 的确如此。然而，如果有人给你一份非常珍贵的礼物，却以糟糕的方式呈现，那会让人非常沮丧。我总是说，当你上台演讲时，最好的想象之一就是你在赠送一份礼物。想象一下，你正在给一个六岁的孩子一份精美的礼物，那一刻你的感受如何？你脸上洋溢着灿烂的笑容，你感到快乐，你充满兴奋。当你上台向人们赠送你即将分享的内容这份礼物时，你就应该有这种感觉。这是一种非常美妙的状态，这种想象会带来巨大的帮助。它能让你不再只关注自己，而是更多地投入到与观众的关系中，这种关系是慷慨的、愉快的，并基于爱。

主持人: It also focuses you on what's really important, right? Which is people don't really care if you look perfect or if you are stumbling a little bit over your words. They care about what you're giving them and what you're offering them. If you give someone a huge gift, that is going to be a positive moment for them.

主持人: 它也能让你专注于真正重要的事情，对吗？那就是人们并不真正在意你是否看起来完美，或者你说话时是否有些磕绊。他们关心的是你给予他们的东西，以及你提供给他们的价值。如果你送给别人一份厚礼，那对他们来说将是一个积极的时刻。

Julian Treasure: Yeah. So, but you want to give the gift beautifully as well. So, you know, you drop it on the floor and something's lost. So, it's just the same with the delivery. Yes. You've got a wonderful thing to give them, but you want to give it in an elegant and beautiful way, the way that's going to get it received in the best possible way. So, delivery is very important as well as content. You can't just have one of them. You need to have both.

Julian Treasure: 是的。但是，你也希望以漂亮的方式赠送这份礼物。你知道，如果你把它掉在地上，就会有所损失。所以，表达方式也是如此。是的，你有一份美妙的东西要给予他们，但你希望以一种优雅而美丽的方式呈现，以确保它能以最好的方式被接受。因此，表达方式和内容一样重要。你不能只拥有其中之一，你需要两者兼备。

如何让他人倾听：建立“注意力契约”

主持人: You travel all over the world giving talks in front of hundreds and thousands of people. So you're very unusual in that you talk in this professional way, but for a regular person, I think probably the most common times when they'll have to give some sort of public talk or a presentation at work or maybe they give a speech at like a wedding or a party. Are there other moments that people ask you about a lot?

主持人: 你周游世界，在成百上千人面前演讲。所以你以这种专业的方式演讲非常不寻常，但对于普通人来说，我认为他们最常见的需要公开讲话的场合，可能是在工作中做某种演讲或报告，或者在婚礼或派对上致辞。人们还会经常向你咨询其他哪些场合的沟通问题呢？

Julian Treasure: Actually, one-to-ones, when it's somebody that they find a bit intimidating for example, or they don't feel heard, they don't feel that somebody's listening to them, and that's one of the biggest questions I get is how do I get somebody to listen to me? So all of these situations where you feel less than, you don't feel big enough, you don't feel good enough, that's a situation where it's tough and where you have to work through it.

Julian Treasure: 实际上，很多人会问一对一的沟通问题，比如当他们面对一个让他们感到有些畏惧的人时，或者他们觉得自己没有被倾听，感觉别人没有在听他们说话时。我收到的最大问题之一就是：“我怎样才能让别人听我说话？”所以，所有这些让你感到自己不够强大、不够好、不够重要的情境，都是艰难的，你需要努力去克服。

主持人: Well, let me turn that question back around and ask you the question that everyone asked then how do you make people listen when you don't feel like you're being listened to.

主持人: 那么，让我把这个问题反过来问你，问一个大家都会问的问题：当你觉得没有被倾听时，你如何才能让别人听你说话？

Julian Treasure: Well, the way not to do that is to say to people, "You're not listening very well." That doesn't go down extremely well with people. They get upset. And I'm a great fan of what I call contracts or agreements with people. So, for example, Chris, I've got something really important to say to you. Have you got five minutes to give me your undivided attention?

Julian Treasure: 嗯，不应该做的是对别人说：“你没有好好听。”那样人们会很不高兴，他们会生气。我非常推崇我所说的与人建立“契约”或“协议”的做法。所以，举个例子，克里斯，我有些非常重要的事情要对你说。你有没有五分钟时间，可以给我你全神贯注的注意力？

主持人: Absolutely. I know you were just role playing and 100% I'm already in, though. Yes, you have five minutes. And if you say no, I say okay, if now is not good, when would be good?

主持人: 当然。我知道你只是在角色扮演，但我已经百分之百投入了。是的，你有五分钟。如果你说不，我就会说：“好的，如果现在不方便，那什么时候方便呢？”

Julian Treasure: We make an appointment. And then if I start talking and you start doing your email or sending a text, I think I have a right to say, "Chris, you did say you give me your undivided attention for this." So even somebody who habitually isn't very good at listening or is very distracted or always has something in their hand, those people can still be made appointments with and it's a very powerful way to get yourself heard and even to teach them the power of effective listening which does require total focus.

Julian Treasure: 我们会约定一个时间。然后，如果我开始说话，你却开始处理邮件或发短信，我想我完全有权说：“克里斯，你刚才确实说过你会给我全神贯注的注意力。”所以，即使是那些习惯性不善于倾听、容易分心或总是手里拿着东西的人，你也可以和他们约定时间，这是一种非常有效的方式，能让你被倾听，甚至能教导他们有效倾听的力量，因为有效倾听确实需要全神贯注。

避免“倒金字塔”：先说重点，再谈背景

主持人: One thing that I wonder about with people like that is sometimes you have this kind of very brief window at the when you start talking to someone where they're judging is this worth my time? Is this worth my attention? And I feel like there's the the positive and the negative side which is if you can communicate it in a way that makes it worth their attention, they'll continue giving it to you. But the other side is even for me, someone who I speak professionally, I don't feel like that's a big insecurity for me. If I know that I've lost someone's, if I can see them say, "What he's saying isn't important. I'm not going to pay attention." It really gets me in my own head and then I start feeling insecure and it's hard for me to even think I should win them back after that.

主持人: 对于这类人，我有时会想，当你开始与某人交谈时，会有一个非常短暂的窗口期，他们会判断“这值得我花时间吗？这值得我关注吗？”我觉得这有积极和消极两面：如果你能以一种让他们觉得值得关注的方式进行沟通，他们就会继续倾听。但另一方面，即使是我这样专业演讲的人，如果我知道我失去了某人的注意力，如果我能看到他们心里在说：“他说的内容不重要，我不会去听。”这真的会让我陷入自我怀疑，然后我开始感到不安全，之后我甚至很难去想如何重新赢得他们的注意力。

Julian Treasure: There's a great system you can use to try and avoid that because the mistake many people make is they work with what's called an inverted Mento pyramid (倒金字塔结构: 一种沟通模式，先说背景细节，最后才提出核心观点), which is to say the preamble. So, "Thanks for listening to me, Chris. And you know this happened, this happened, this happened and you know really the reason I want to talk to you is this and so on and so on and so forth. So, what I'd like to ask you is this."

Julian Treasure: 有一个很棒的系统可以帮助你避免这种情况，因为许多人犯的错误是他们采用一种叫做倒金字塔结构的沟通方式，也就是先说开场白。比如，“谢谢你听我说话，克里斯。你知道发生了这个，发生了那个，又发生了这个，而我真正想和你谈的原因是这个，等等等等。所以，我想问你的是这个。”

主持人: Right at the bottom, you know, it's like those emails you get where you read seven paragraphs before you get to the bit which is actually asking you what they want. Turn it round. Start with "Chris, I'm talking to you now because I need you to do this for me. The reason is this. And if you're interested, here's the background for what happened." So, the pyramid is that way. You start with the point.

主持人: 就在最底部，你知道，就像你收到的那些邮件，你要读完七段才能看到他们真正想问你什么。把它反过来。从“克里斯，我现在跟你说话是因为我需要你为我做这件事。原因就是这个。如果你感兴趣，这里是事情的背景。”这样，金字塔就正过来了。你从重点开始。

Julian Treasure: If you always start with the point, it's like I would say to people if they're devising content for a talk, there's an old system that the essayists used to do this, which is say what you're going to say, say it, then say what you said.

Julian Treasure: 如果你总是从重点开始，就像我告诉那些为演讲设计内容的人一样，散文家们过去常用的一种老方法就是：先说你要说什么，再说出来，然后总结你说了什么。

主持人: So you summarize at the beginning and the end. You give people the reason. It's like if you give people the why first, then you have them with you. They understand why it is they should then give you their attention for the rest of whatever it is you're going to. I've heard doctors sometimes refer to this as like the doorstop moment (门挡时刻: 指人们在即将离开时，突然提出真正重要的问题或需求的情景) where they have the whole checkup and then right at the end as the person's leaving the room they go, "Oh, and by the way, is it a problem that I have a boil on my foot?" That's a very graphic example, but they say the thing that was the real reason they made the appointment at the very end after everything else.

主持人: 所以你在开头和结尾都做了总结。你给了人们理由。这就像如果你先告诉人们“为什么”，他们就会和你在一起。他们会明白为什么他们应该把注意力集中在你接下来要说的所有内容上。我听说医生有时会把这称为“门挡时刻”，就是他们完成了所有的检查，然后就在病人离开房间的时候，他们会说：“哦，对了，我脚上长了个疖子，有问题吗？”这是一个非常生动的例子，但他们把真正让他们预约看病的事情放在了所有其他事情之后，在最后才说出来。

Julian Treasure: Yes. Which is unfortunate. If you imagine the thing as a pyramid and you do the why at the beginning, then you captivate people immediately, as long as there's a reason for them to listen to it. And presumably you've thought about that. There's a concept I teach a lot in my work which is the relationship between speaking and listening is circular. It's not linear. It's not "I speak, you listen." There is this circle going on all the time because the way I speak affects the way you listen. And the way you listen affects the way I speak. As you just said, if you feel somebody's attention wandering, you start getting nervous and having to work harder and pressure mounts. So, this is a circle that's going on all the time in a context. Now, here we have a lovely context of a completely quiet room, microphones, everybody can hear everything that we're saying. That's not always the case, is it?

Julian Treasure: 是的，这很不幸。如果你把事情想象成一个金字塔，并在开头就说明“为什么”，那么你就能立即吸引人们，只要有理由让他们倾听。而且，你大概也思考过这一点。我在工作中经常教授一个概念，那就是说话和倾听之间的关系是循环的。它不是线性的，不是“我说话，你听”。这个循环一直在进行，因为我说话的方式会影响你倾听的方式。而你倾听的方式也会影响我说话的方式。就像你刚才说的，如果你感觉到别人的注意力在游离，你就会开始紧张，不得不更努力地去说，压力也会随之增加。所以，这是一个在特定情境中一直存在的循环。现在，我们这里有一个非常好的环境，房间完全安静，有麦克风，每个人都能听到我们说的每一个字。但情况并非总是如此，不是吗？

适应情境与倾听方式

主持人: You know, you wouldn't want to propose marriage to somebody in a noisy Starbucks shouting at the top of your Well, you might, but you know, you have to think about might get a different answer. You might. So we need to be conscious also of the context around us and try and optimize that. So that's about listening to the sound around us. Is this the best sound it could be? And then being conscious of the fact that everybody listens in a different way. And it's a huge mistake. That's very very common. People assume everybody listens like I do. They do not. And once you get that, it changes everything because you start asking the question, what's the listening I'm speaking into? So, what's your listening now? Right now, I can tell you're listening to me very attentively. You're looking at me. You're giving me signals that show me you're with me and so forth. If you were lolling back in your chair, staring at the ceiling, I'd have a different feeling.

主持人: 你知道，你不会想在一个嘈杂的星巴克里大声向某人求婚——嗯，你也许会，但你得考虑可能会得到一个不同的答案。你可能会。所以我们也需要意识到我们周围的环境，并努力优化它。所以这关乎倾听我们周围的声音。这是最好的声音吗？然后要意识到每个人倾听的方式都不同。这是一个巨大的错误，非常非常普遍。人们以为每个人都像我一样倾听。他们不是。一旦你明白这一点，一切都会改变，因为你开始问这个问题：我正在对什么样的倾听者说话？那么，你现在是如何倾听的？现在，我能看出你非常专注地在听我说话。你看着我，你给我信号表明你跟着我的思路等等。如果你懒散地靠在椅子上，盯着天花板，我的感觉就会不同。

Julian Treasure: Yeah. So, "what's the listening I'm speaking into" is a great question to be asking because you can then adapt your delivery whether it's pace, tone, vocabulary, body language, content, it all can be changed to fit the person you're talking to. That's how you hit the bullseye instead of missing the target altogether.

Julian Treasure: 是的。所以，“我正在对什么样的倾听者说话”是一个非常棒的问题，因为你可以根据它来调整你的表达方式，无论是语速、语调、词汇、肢体语言还是内容，所有这些都可以改变，以适应你正在交谈的人。这样你才能正中靶心，而不是完全脱靶。

倾听：被忽视的沟通基石

主持人: It also is really interesting to think about this for me because I think there's quite a lot of information out there about how to speak and how to make yourself be heard especially in this kind of self-help optimization space. There's a lot about how to be the person where people listen to them. And that's kind of very self-aggrandizing. There's a lot of ego in that. There's much less in how to listen, how to be generous, how to give the attention to someone else. And one thing that's really resonating with me about what you're saying is the idea that when we listen really well, it's this virtuous cycle where the whole conversation, we get to speak better because we are listening well and the whole thing feeds on each other.

主持人: 这对我来说也很有趣，因为我认为市面上有很多关于如何说话以及如何让自己被倾听的信息，尤其是在这种自助优化领域。有很多关于如何成为一个能让人倾听的人的内容。而这有点自吹自擂，其中有很多自我意识。关于如何倾听、如何慷慨、如何将注意力给予他人，这方面的资料却少得多。你所说的一点让我深有共鸣，那就是当我们真正用心倾听时，会形成一个良性循环，整个对话中，我们因为善于倾听而能更好地表达，整个过程是相互促进的。

Julian Treasure: I'll give you a number. My TED talk on speaking, which is the one that's gone completely ballistic and is the top 10 of all time, has been seen by five times as many people as my TED talk on listening. Now, that says something to me. We're in a world where we're very keen to be heard but not so interested in listening. And that doesn't work very well if you think about it. If everybody is speaking to be heard and nobody's listening, that's a fail. So listening to me is the foundational skill and it's the thing that is I think in danger in the world today. We're seeing the lack of listening all around us in polarization, demonization, trolling, aggression, rudeness, the conflation of opinions with facts, which I talked about in that TED talk on speaking, as dogmatism (教条主义: 固执己见，不接受不同观点), one of the seven deadly sins of communication (沟通七宗罪: 指沟通中应避免的七种错误行为，如八卦、评判、消极、抱怨、借口、夸大和教条主义). That's all around us now. And it's all founded in not listening to other people, being in oneself. "I'm right, you're wrong." That's the way it works at the moment. It's so wrong. We're not in a zero-sum world. Two people can be right and have different views because they're in their own perspective. They've got their own history, their own values, attitudes, beliefs, their own listening positions, their own everything. And they can have very different views and both be right. People do everything and say everything for a reason. And once we start to accept that and listen to understand other people, that's a different world. And that's the world I want to try and generate. That's why my focus, my whole purpose in the world now is to generate listening.

Julian Treasure: 我给你一组数字。我关于演讲的TED演讲，那个彻底火爆并位列史上前十的演讲，观看人数是我关于倾听的TED演讲的五倍。这对我来说说明了一些问题。我们生活在一个非常渴望被倾听，却不太愿意倾听的世界。如果你仔细想想，这行不通。如果每个人都在说话以求被倾听，却没有人在倾听，那就是失败。所以，对我而言，倾听是基础技能，也是我认为当今世界面临危险的事情。我们看到周围普遍缺乏倾听，体现在两极分化、妖魔化、网络喷子、攻击性、粗鲁，以及将观点与事实混淆——我在那次关于演讲的TED演讲中谈到过这一点，称之为教条主义，这是沟通七宗罪之一。这些现象现在随处可见。所有这些都根源于不倾听他人，只沉浸在自我之中。你知道，那种“我是对的，你是错的”的心态，现在就是这样运作的。这太错了。我们并非生活在一个零和世界。两个人可以都是对的，并且持有不同的观点，因为他们有自己的视角。他们有自己的历史、价值观、态度、信仰、倾听立场，以及他们的一切。他们可以有非常不同的观点，并且都是对的。你知道，人们做任何事、说任何话都是有原因的。一旦我们开始接受这一点，并倾听以理解他人，那将是一个不同的世界。那正是我想要创造的世界。这就是为什么我现在在世界上的焦点和全部目标就是促进倾听。

提升倾听力的实践：重拾寂静与RASA法则

主持人: Let me just ask you this, which is in really like a practical way. If I want to make my voice sound better, I can warm it up. There's all sorts of vocal warm-ups that you can find that you have taught people. I can drink hot tea. I can do all these things that make my voice sound better. What are the practical like exercises that people can do to listen better rather than speak better?

主持人: 让我问你一个非常实际的问题。如果我想让自己的声音听起来更好，我可以进行热身。你可以找到各种各样的声乐热身练习，你教过人们这些。我可以喝热茶。我可以做所有这些让我的声音听起来更好的事情。那么，人们可以做哪些实际的练习来更好地倾听，而不是更好地说话呢？

Julian Treasure: Well, first is to rediscover your connection with silence. You know, over half the world's population lives in cities now and very rarely experiences silence or nature sound, which is another topic entirely. So, we evolved over maybe 300,000 years. Homo sapiens has been here and 3 million years before that our ancestors we evolved in pretty quiet situations bird song water wind and so forth we're now in a very different situation and we're dealing with noise all around us so it's very difficult for us to listen because we become numb and silence is the baseline there are different qualities of silence I could go on about silence for a long time silence is amazing it is a sound and it's a very important sound. Getting silence into your life is a very excellent way of resetting your ears. Reacquainting yourself with a baseline from which you can then work and listen afresh. It is refreshing. Simply 3 minutes a couple of times a day is very helpful. So you might have to go and lock yourself in a bathroom or a closet or something in order to get it in a city and absolute silence not necessarily the quietest thing you can get. Of course, if you're lucky enough to live near nature, you can go and do shinrinyoku (森林浴: 源自日本的一种健康实践，指在森林中漫步，通过感官体验自然环境以放松身心), forest bathing, get out into nature and listen to beautiful tranquility as well. That's also good for you. So doing that and getting away from the noise, that's a very very good thing to do in the first place.

Julian Treasure: 嗯，首先是重新找回你与寂静的连接。你知道，现在世界上超过一半的人口居住在城市，很少能体验到寂静或自然之声，这完全是另一个话题。我们人类进化了大约30万年，智人存在于此，而在此之前的300万年，我们的祖先生活在相当安静的环境中，有鸟鸣、流水、风声等等。我们现在所处的情况非常不同，我们周围充斥着噪音，所以我们很难倾听，因为我们变得麻木了，而寂静才是基准。寂静有不同的品质，我可以长时间地谈论寂静，寂静是令人惊叹的，它是一种声音，而且是一种非常重要的声音。让寂静进入你的生活是重置你耳朵的绝佳方式。让你重新熟悉一个基准，然后你可以从这个基准开始工作并重新倾听。这令人耳目一新。每天只需3分钟，做几次，就非常有帮助。所以你可能需要把自己关在浴室或衣橱里，才能在城市中获得绝对的寂静，这不一定是你所能得到的极致安静。当然，如果你足够幸运，住在靠近大自然的地方，你可以去进行森林浴，走进大自然，聆听美妙的宁静。那对你也有好处。所以，这样做，远离噪音，首先就是一件非常非常好的事情。

Julian Treasure: And then I have some exercises for listening skills in conversation particularly like this. I mean you're doing one of them very well all the time now which is RASA (接收、欣赏、总结、提问: 一种有效的倾听技巧，代表Receive, Appreciate, Summarize, Ask). which is receive. That is to say, pay attention. Look at the person who's speaking. Appreciate the little things you're doing like nods and eyebrow blinks, raised eyebrows, smiles, head bobs, all of those. Exactly. All of those kind of things. The S is summarize, which you've been doing as well. Often uses the word "so." It's a very important little word that got abused for years when everybody was starting every sentence with the word "so." So, "what I've understood is this." Or "so what we're saying is this." "So what I got is that, is that right?" Checks receipt. And then the A is ask questions. Ideally open-ended questions. Why, what, which, when, where, who, those kind of questions that do not permit the answer yes or no. So RASA: receive, appreciate, summarize, ask. That oils conversation very well. And actually a man told me after I taught him that, he came back months later and said, "You saved my marriage with that thing."

Julian Treasure: 然后我有一些关于对话中倾听技巧的练习，特别是像这样。我的意思是，你现在一直做得很好的一点就是RASA原则。R代表接收（Receive），也就是说，要集中注意力。看着说话的人。欣赏你正在做的一些小动作，比如点头，眨眼，扬眉，微笑，点头示意，所有这些。没错，所有这些。S代表总结（Summarize），你也在这样做。通常会用到“所以”这个词。这是一个非常重要的小词，但多年来被滥用了，每个人都用“所以”来开头。所以，“我理解的是这个。”或者“所以我们说的是这个。”“所以我理解的是这样，对吗？”确认一下。然后A代表提问（Ask questions）。最好是开放式问题。为什么、什么、哪个、何时、何地、谁，这类不允许回答“是”或“否”的问题。所以RASA就是：接收、欣赏、总结、提问。这能让对话非常顺畅。事实上，有一个人在我教了他这个方法后，几个月后回来告诉我：“你用这个方法挽救了我的婚姻。”

沉默的力量：销售与演讲中的应用

主持人: Wow. So it's very very effective in conversation. So there's a couple of steps on the way to becoming a better listener. Silence. RASA. I would say I am challenged the most by silence. I like to fill silence. I like to have jokes or laughter or overlapping conversation and that's something I've really had to learn about. And one of the ways that I have learned about it is by professionally interviewing people because something that I think is kind of journalism 101, interviewing 101, and yet is such an incredibly effective tool, I am always shocked by how well it works is ask the question and then don't say anything. Even if they don't answer right away, let them fill the silence. It's always interesting if you just fight. I have to really fight my urge to ask you a question and then clarify. If I just keep it quiet, it's incredible how something else will come up in there. Another thing that strikes me about silence is in your book Sound Effects. You have four sections. And one of the sections is silence that is just as important as nature sounds as in these other big types of noise. And yet I think many of us don't often think of silence as that powerful or something that we need to listen for.

主持人: 哇。所以它在对话中非常非常有效。所以，成为一个更好的倾听者有几个步骤：寂静和RASA。我想说，我最大的挑战是寂静。我喜欢填补寂静。我喜欢讲笑话，或者欢笑，或者进行重叠的对话，这是我真正需要学习的东西。我学习这种方法的一种方式是通过专业的采访，因为我认为这有点像新闻学101、采访101，但它却是一个非常有效的工具，我总是对它的效果感到震惊，那就是提出问题，然后什么也不说。即使他们没有立即回答，也让他们来填补寂静。如果你只是坚持住，总是很有趣。我真的必须努力克制自己，不要在提问后立即澄清。如果我只是保持安静，令人难以置信的是，总会有其他东西浮现出来。关于寂静，另一件让我印象深刻的事情是，在你的书《声音效应》中，你有四个部分。其中一个部分是寂静，它和自然之声以及其他各种噪音一样重要。然而，我认为我们很多人并不经常认为寂静是如此强大，或者我们需要去倾听它。

Julian Treasure: It is so powerful. In your job, as you just said to me, if you ask a question, shut up and let the person, even if you have to wait. That's not the only situation in which silence is very effective. Salespeople. The research I've just seen recently shows that most salespeople speak 60-65% of a call and listen 35%. It's the wrong way round. In fact, the sweet spot for closing is to reverse that entirely. Listen 65% and speak 35%. And any great salesperson would tell you the most important part of the conversation is listening. And if you're closing in a sales conversation, you ask the question and do not say anything for the longest time you can. It can get very uncomfortable. You might have to hold your leg like this and just sit waiting. But if you do that, the result is always that the person will come back with some sort of question that you can answer. So it's really important and the biggest mistake I see with people on stage is gabbling, is filling every moment. That's where all those fillers come from, is the uncomfortable feeling when there's silence. So, I can do a thing on stage when I'm talking, I can just stop. That's my max right there. That's where I got uncomfortable. So, if I'm standing there and I've stopped and I'm not looking uncomfortable or flustered or going red, the audience know there's nothing going wrong and they're going, "Ah, it's nice. A bit of peace and quiet. What shall I have for lunch?" We all have a little pause. You can stop for the longest time. Really, 3 to 5 seconds is nothing. And silence is such a powerful tool. When you make a really important point, you can say this and then stop and let it settle and then the thing will move on. So being comfortable with silence I think is the foundation of all powerful speaking really.

Julian Treasure: 它是如此强大。在你的工作中，就像你刚才对我说的，如果你问了一个问题，就闭嘴，让对方说，即使你必须等待。这并不是寂静唯一有效的场合。销售人员也是如此。我最近看到的研究表明，大多数销售人员在电话中说话占60-65%，倾听占35%。这完全反了。事实上，成交的最佳比例是完全颠倒过来：倾听65%，说话35%。任何一位优秀的销售人员都会告诉你，对话中最重要的部分是倾听。如果你在销售对话中即将成交，你提出问题后，尽可能长时间地保持沉默。这可能会让人感到非常不舒服。你可能需要像这样夹紧腿，只是坐着等待。但如果你这样做，结果总是对方会提出某种你可以回答的问题。所以这非常重要，我在舞台上看到人们犯的最大错误就是滔滔不绝，填满每一个时刻。那些“嗯”、“啊”之类的填充词，都来自于面对寂静时的不适感。所以，我在舞台上演讲时，我可以做一件事，就是停下来。那就是我的极限了。那就是我感到不舒服的地方。所以，如果我站在那里，停了下来，而我看起来并不不舒服，不慌乱，也没有脸红，观众就会知道一切正常，他们会想：“啊，真好。有点安静。我午饭吃什么呢？”我们都会有短暂的停顿。你可以停顿很长时间。实际上，3到5秒钟根本不算什么。而寂静是如此强大的工具。当你提出一个非常重要的观点时，你可以这样说，然后停下来，让它沉淀，然后事情就会继续。所以，我认为，能够自在地面对寂静，才是所有有力演讲的真正基础。

HAIL原则：真诚表达的基石

主持人: You also have an acronym for how to speak well. That's HAIL. Talk us through what HAIL is.

主持人: 你还有一个关于如何好好说话的首字母缩略词，那就是HAIL。请给我们讲讲HAIL是什么。

Julian Treasure: Okay. HAIL (HAIL原则: 一种有效沟通的缩写，代表Honesty诚实、Authenticity真诚、Integrity正直、Love爱) which means to greet or acclaim enthusiastically which is nice. It stands for honesty which is to be clear and straight not use jargon not confuse people. Not try and impress people with big words or complex ideas. Always "what's the listening I'm speaking into?" What kind of language is going to get this across in the most effective way? So honesty: clear and straight. The A is authenticity, which means being yourself. Now I love Susan Cain's talk. I remember I met Susan after that talk and said, "Do you know your life is going to change completely after you did that?" She gave a wonderful talk about the importance of valuing introverts. And actually, interestingly, when I'm on the speaking circuit, the vast majority of the professional speakers that I meet are introverts, and I am. We've all learned to go on stage and project and do a job and be comfortable with a thousand people looking at us. Nevertheless, we're introverts. And being authentic to yourself, I don't go on stage and do all sorts of running about and whooping and hollering. That's not me. So, I'm very still on stage. I'm quiet and I talk in a sort of genuine sincere way. That's who I am. Pretending to be somebody else, it never really lands. Unless you're an actor or you're doing a part, in which case, brilliant. But if you're talking as yourself, be yourself. You are enough. The I is integrity, which means being your word. If you say it and then you don't do it, people learn that pretty quickly. And your words just evaporate like puddles in the sun. They go. And the L perhaps surprisingly is love. And I don't mean romantic love. I mean wishing people well. As you walk on stage, we talked earlier about the idea of giving a gift. When I go on stage and if I feel I've got a gift to give people, I'm happy. And I have a little acronym for the moment you're on the spot. It's another four-letter acronym BESS (BESS原则: 一种上台前的准备技巧，代表Breathe呼吸、Expand扩展意识、Stance站姿、Smile微笑) which is as you walk to the spot, breathe in because your voice is just breath and it's good for nerves as well to do that, expand your awareness to see the whole room if you can, take your stance, and there's a great visualization I can give you for that, and smile because you're happy you're going to give a gift and then you get people smiling back and you've made a relationship with the audience which is positive.

Julian Treasure: 好的，HAIL原则，它的意思是热情地问候或喝彩，这很好。它代表诚实（Honesty），就是要清晰直接，不使用行话，不让人困惑。不要试图用大词或复杂的想法来打动人。总是要问：“我正在对什么样的倾听者说话？”什么样的语言能最有效地传达信息？所以，诚实就是清晰直接。A代表真诚（Authenticity），这意味着做你自己。我喜欢苏珊·凯恩的演讲。我记得在那次演讲后我遇到了苏珊，我说：“你知道吗，你做完那个演讲后，你的人生将彻底改变。”她做了一个很棒的演讲，讲述了重视内向者的重要性。实际上，有趣的是，当我在演讲圈子里时，我遇到的绝大多数专业演讲者都是内向者，我也是。我们都学会了上台，展现自己，完成工作，并习惯于被成千上万的人注视。尽管如此，我们仍然是内向者。而做真实的自己，我不会上台做各种跑来跑去、大喊大叫的事情。那不是我。所以，我在舞台上非常安静。我说话时带着一种真诚的态度。那就是我。假装成别人，是永远无法真正打动人的。除非你是一名演员，或者你在扮演一个角色，那样的话很棒。但如果你是以自己的身份说话，那就做你自己。你已经足够好了。I代表正直（Integrity），这意味着言行一致。如果你说了却不去做，人们很快就会明白这一点。你的话语就会像阳光下的水坑一样蒸发殆尽。它们会消失。而L，也许令人惊讶的是，是爱（Love）。我指的不是浪漫的爱。我指的是祝愿人们一切顺利。当你走上舞台时，我们之前谈到过赠送礼物的想法。当我走上舞台，如果我感觉到我有礼物要送给人们，我就会很高兴。我有一个关于你站在聚光灯下的那一刻的小缩写词，那是另一个四个字母的缩写词BESS，它代表当你走向那个位置时，深呼吸（Breathe in），因为你的声音就是呼吸，这样做对缓解紧张也很有好处；扩展你的意识（Expand your awareness），如果可能的话，环视整个房间；摆好你的姿态（Take your stance），我有一个很棒的视觉化方法可以教你；然后微笑（Smile），因为你很高兴你要送出一份礼物，然后你会看到人们也对你微笑，你就与观众建立了一种积极的关系。

主持人: The smile one is interesting because I feel like that's one that I remind myself of a lot consciously. Someone the way it was once told to me is if you're ever not sure what to do with your face, try smiling. And it is amazing how dramatically that changes the tenor of an interaction if I just instead of giving them this dull kind of intimidating face, if I smile and then we start having a I mean you obviously don't want to be smiling if they're telling you a tragic story then it's disturbing. But most of the time it really does change things to have that kind of openness on your face when it's intentional.

主持人: 微笑这一点很有趣，因为我觉得这是我经常有意识地提醒自己的一个。有人曾告诉我，如果你不确定脸上该做什么表情，那就试着微笑。令人惊讶的是，如果你只是微笑，而不是给他们一张沉闷、有点吓人的脸，这会极大地改变互动氛围。当然，如果他们正在讲述一个悲惨的故事，你显然不应该微笑，那样会让人不安。但大多数时候，有意识地在脸上展现那种开放性，确实能改变很多事情。

意识：成为更好的沟通者

Julian Treasure: You know, there are people I've met who smile almost constantly because they've learned that, you know, they don't feel enough or there's something they're trying to make connection all the time and there's a discomfort about it. So they're smiling all the time that becomes meaningless. So, one of the great things I love about speaking and particularly speaking on stage is it's the time when I'm probably most conscious. You better be conscious if there's a thousand people looking at you. When are you going to be conscious? If not, then and I think a lot of the work that I do and a lot of what I talk about both speaking and listening is really about consciousness. It's about becoming a more conscious human being. So when on stage it's conscious gesticulation, conscious stance, conscious of the connection with the audience and the listening I'm speaking into. Conscious of the way that dynamic is working. You know, are they looking tired? Is it just after lunch? I often get that what's called the graveyard slot (午后疲劳时段: 指午餐后人们容易感到疲倦，注意力不集中的时段). You probably do as well. "Oh, he's a TED speaker. He can deal with that. We'll put him on at two just when everybody's tired and so forth." So being conscious of the whole situation, when I go into a big venue going to see the AV guys, "Hello, I'm Julian. How are you?" Making connections with people because all of it matters. All of it has an effect. So I love that whole process of switching on and being conscious about every step: the tech, the prep, the rehearsal, the checks, the people around, and then the walking on stage and doing your best job to deliver. I was very lucky with that last TED talk. I'd done four in successive years before that. So, I had practice and so fortunately, I was able to do that one really well, which was quite important because if you're going to stand on the TED stage and speak about speaking, that's the bar is high. That's sticking your head above the parapet big time.

Julian Treasure: 你知道，我遇到过一些人几乎一直在微笑，因为他们觉得不够好，或者他们总是在努力建立联系，但其中带着一丝不安。所以他们一直在微笑，这反而变得毫无意义。因此，我热爱演讲，尤其是在舞台上演讲的一大原因在于，那是我可能最清醒的时候。如果有一千双眼睛盯着你，你最好保持清醒。如果不是那时，你什么时候才能清醒呢？我认为我所做的很多工作，以及我谈论的关于演讲和倾听的很多内容，实际上都关乎意识。它关乎成为一个更有意识的人。所以，在舞台上，它是自觉的手势，自觉的姿态，自觉地与观众建立联系，以及自觉地了解我正在对什么样的倾听者说话。自觉地了解这种动态是如何运作的。你知道，他们看起来累了吗？是不是刚吃完午饭？我经常遇到所谓的午后疲劳时段。你可能也一样。“哦，他是TED演讲者。他能应付。我们把他安排在两点，那时大家都累了等等。”所以，要对整个情况保持清醒，当我走进一个大型场地时，我会去见音视频技术人员，“你好，我是朱利安。你们好吗？”与人们建立联系，因为所有这些都很重要。所有这些都会产生影响。所以我喜欢这种全身心投入，对每一步都保持清醒的过程：技术、准备、排练、检查、周围的人，然后走上舞台，尽力完成你的演讲。我那次TED演讲非常幸运。在此之前，我连续四年都做过演讲。所以，我有练习，因此很幸运，我能够把那次演讲做得非常好，这非常重要，因为如果你要在TED舞台上谈论演讲，那标准是很高的。那真是极大的挑战。

主持人: For me with both speaking and listening, I come at this as someone who professionally has worked in comedy but also I used to teach fifth grade and an elementary school and I'm always so struck by how especially HAIL, all of those pieces are so much what it takes to talk to kids and kids are such perfect barometers of whether you are being honest, authentic, whether you have integrity and whether you're coming with love.

主持人: 对我来说，无论是演讲还是倾听，我都是以一个曾在喜剧界专业工作过，也曾教过五年级和小学的人的身份来谈论的。我总是被HAIL原则，特别是所有这些要素，在与孩子交流时所起的作用深深打动。孩子们是完美的晴雨表，能衡量你是否真诚、是否正直，以及你是否带着爱。

Julian Treasure: Yeah. Because they haven't learned how not to do that.

Julian Treasure: 是的。因为他们还没有学会如何不去这样做。

主持人: Yeah. And they'll just tell you like that's not true or you're not. If the biggest thing that I learned in the classroom was it is so you have such a tendency as a teacher, especially a new teacher to say in our classroom, "We do not throw paper into the trash. We get up and we put it in." And kids go, "Okay, well, if that's a rule, there's always at least one kid that says, "Well, I'm going to test if that's a rule." And then they throw the paper in the trash and you don't do anything. They go, "Okay, well that's not a rule then." There was no integrity behind it. And adults are like that, too. They're just a little sneakier about it, I think.

主持人: 是的。他们会直接告诉你，比如“那不是真的”或者“你不是”。我在课堂上学到的最重要的一点是，作为一名老师，尤其是一名新老师，你总是倾向于在教室里说：“我们不能把纸扔进垃圾桶。我们要站起来把它放进去。”孩子们会想：“好吧，如果那是一条规则，总会有一个孩子说：‘那我要试试看那是不是一条规则。’”然后他们把纸扔进垃圾桶，而你什么也没做。他们就会说：“好吧，那这就不是一条规则。”这背后缺乏正直。我认为成年人也是如此，只是他们更狡猾一些。

Julian Treasure: Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. So, I think integrity is one of the most difficult things in life because we all like to impress people or to be liked and we will say things to get liked. So, ego is the driving force behind a lot of behaviors which are not very helpful. One of the things I talk about is internal listening (内在倾听: 指倾听自己内心的声音，尤其是自我批评的声音). Listening inside to the voice inside you. And a lot of people have a very negative voice. There's a critic in there going, "You idiot. Don't get on that dance floor. You'll mess that up. Don't do that." All that kind of negative self-talk. And the answer to that is to realize that you're not that voice. If you're not that voice, who are you? You're the one listening to the voice. And the voice may be a part of you that's been damaged in the past. It's a fragment which is trying to stop pain from happening again. But if you're the one listening, you're the king or queen on the throne. The jester's coming up and giving you that. You can tassel its head and say, "Thanks. Now go away. I'm going to do it anyway." So that kind of awareness of ego I think is really important especially where it comes to integrity and to stopping the mouth from running off and making promises that we can't, writing checks we can't cash.

Julian Treasure: 是的，是的，真是如此。所以，我认为正直是生活中最困难的事情之一，因为我们都喜欢给别人留下好印象或被喜欢，我们会说一些话来赢得好感。因此，自我（ego）是许多无益行为背后的驱动力。我谈论的一件事是内在倾听，倾听你内心深处的声音。很多人都有一个非常消极的声音。内心有一个批评者在说：“你这个笨蛋。别去跳舞了。你会搞砸的。别做那个。”所有这些消极的自我对话。而解决之道是认识到你不是那个声音。如果你不是那个声音，那你又是谁？你是那个倾听声音的人。那个声音可能是你过去受损的一部分。它是一个碎片，试图阻止痛苦再次发生。但如果你是那个倾听者，你就是坐在王座上的国王或女王。小丑跑过来对你说了那些话。你可以轻拍它的头说：“谢谢。现在走开。我还是要去做。”所以，我认为这种对自我的意识非常重要，尤其是在涉及正直以及阻止我们信口开河、做出无法兑现的承诺方面。

幽默的运用与倾听立场

主持人: How do you think about humor and laughter as a part of this as well? One of the classic tips that people say is start with a joke or you know and I think that for me is often a shorthand because when you're standing in front of a room of a thousand people or if you're standing in front of a room of two people it's hard it's a little hard to know whether you're connected or not but if they laugh you instantly have that well we must be connected because they are there's this feedback immediately. So how do you think about that?

主持人: 你如何看待幽默和笑声在其中的作用？人们常说的一个经典建议是，以一个笑话开场。我认为对我来说，这通常是一种速记方式，因为当你站在一千人或两个人面前时，很难知道你是否与他们建立了联系，但如果他们笑了，你立刻就会觉得我们肯定建立了联系，因为他们有了即时反馈。那么你是怎么看待这个问题的呢？

Julian Treasure: Well, it's lovely to do if that's you authentically. So you're a comedian, that's brilliant. I'm not. And I would feel uncomfortable walking on stage with a prepared joke because I probably wouldn't deliver it brilliantly. And there's nothing worse than a joke that falls flat. The tumbleweed is blowing down the street. Anyway, let's move on. You know, it's not a comfortable moment. So, if you feel proficient, if it's really what you do, if you're a funny guy, be a funny guy. If you're not, my style of humor would be more to share what's going on for me in a kind of ironic or gently amusing way, which again makes that connection with the audience. Maybe something's happened on the way there or whatever it may be. Now, I don't do that at the beginning of a talk because at the beginning of the talk, I want them to get the why. So, I don't do small talk. "Hey, it's a bit hot in here, isn't it? Oh, it's great to be with you. I'm really excited to be here in Vancouver. What a lovely city, isn't there? Do you live here?" No, I don't do any of that because I want them to have the why very very clearly upfront. And in fact, when I'm doing my talks on listening, I walk on stage and just say "listen" and then stop for a long time. And then we talk about what's that? That's the sound of listening. It's a very important sound. Why is it important? And so forth. So when you're starting something, you can grab attention. You can make a controversial statement of some kind. "Did you know this?" Or "here's something that you're going to disagree with." You can ask a question. You can give them a huge result that they would like. "Would you like to...?" Whatever it is, it's the why. And it's very important that that's the pinnacle of your pyramid. Everything flows from that. Then I might make jokes. I might be in my own little way gently amusing, but I'm not going to crack gags. I'm not going to do routines. I'm not going to try and do standup because that's not who I am. It would be inauthentic.

Julian Treasure: 嗯，如果那是你真实的样子，那么这样做很棒。所以你是个喜剧演员，那太棒了。我不是。如果我带着一个准备好的笑话上台，我会感到不舒服，因为我可能无法出色地把它讲出来。没有什么比一个冷场笑话更糟糕的了。就像风滚草吹过街道。反正，我们继续吧。你知道，那不是一个舒服的时刻。所以，如果你觉得自己擅长，如果那确实是你的风格，如果你是个有趣的人，那就做个有趣的人。如果不是，我的幽默风格更多是分享我身上发生的事情，以一种讽刺或温和有趣的方式，这同样能与观众建立联系。也许是路上发生了什么事，或者其他什么。不过，我不会在演讲开始时这样做，因为在演讲开始时，我希望他们明白“为什么”。所以，我不会闲聊。“嘿，这里有点热，不是吗？哦，很高兴和你们在一起。我很高兴来到温哥华。多可爱的城市啊，不是吗？你住在这里吗？”不，我不会做这些，因为我希望他们在一开始就非常清楚地知道“为什么”。事实上，当我在做关于倾听的演讲时，我走上舞台，只是说“倾听”，然后长时间停顿。然后我们讨论那是什么？那是倾听的声音。这是一个非常重要的声音。为什么它重要？等等。所以当你开始某件事时，你可以抓住注意力。你可以发表某种有争议的声明。“你知道这个吗？”或者“这里有一些你会不同意的事情。”你可以提问。你可以给他们一个他们会喜欢的大结果。“你愿意……吗？”无论是什么，都是关于“为什么”。而且非常重要的是，这应该是你金字塔的顶峰。一切都由此展开。然后我可能会开玩笑。我可能会以我自己的方式温和地逗乐，但我不会讲笑话。我不会表演套路。我不会尝试做脱口秀，因为那不是我。那样会显得不真诚。

主持人: I think that authenticity piece is something that it is intuitive and it but it's also not obvious and it's really difficult. One question that I have for you that it can be about authenticity, it can be about other things as well is what when someone else is speaking, what should we be listening for? I talk about listening positions and that's very important.

主持人: 我认为真诚这一点是直觉的，但它也不是显而易见的，而且非常困难。我有一个问题想问你，这个问题可能与真诚有关，也可能与其它事情有关，那就是当别人说话时，我们应该倾听什么？我谈论倾听立场，这非常重要。

Julian Treasure: There are lots of ways you can listen and there are many models of this out there. So people talk about active listening (积极倾听: 一种沟通技巧，指全身心投入地理解对方所说的话，并给予反馈). I talk about conscious listening (有意识倾听: 指有目的地、主动地选择倾听方式，并关注倾听过程). That's the thing I like to talk about because the whole conversation to me is about consciousness. And listening for is one listening position. It tends to be what I would call critical listening (批判性倾听: 指带着评估和分析的态度去听，关注信息的价值、重要性和实用性) which is "what's in this for me? Where's the value in this? Is this important? Is this useful? Should I go somewhere else?" And you get a lot of that. I mean, the most uncomfortable situation, anybody who's been to, for example, an exhibition, you get those conversations where people are always looking over your shoulder to see if there's somebody more important that they should be speaking to, checking your badge, "Are you significant?" That kind of that's a very hard-edged critical listening. There's nothing wrong with critical listening. It's very useful in business, but it may not be what you want to take home. Where you might want to move into empathic listening (同理心倾听: 指设身处地地感受他人的情感，用心去理解对方的经历和感受), which is feeling the other person's feelings, listening with your heart as well as your ears and your eyes, and going onto their island, and really seeking to understand what's going on for them. People say there's three things we want in a relationship: to be heard, to be understood, and to be valued. And empathic listening does all three of those. But again, you wouldn't necessarily want to do that at work the whole time. Sometimes you have to be hard or discipline people or just be direct. And empathic listening would not work in the army, for example, in the armed forces. "Do what you're told." There's no empathy in that at all. So listening positions, there are many, many, many of them. You can create as many as you like, but the key is to be conscious of where you're listening from.

Julian Treasure: 你可以用很多种方式倾听，市面上也有很多关于这方面的模型。所以人们谈论积极倾听，我谈论有意识倾听。这是我喜欢谈论的事情，因为对我来说，整个对话都关乎意识。而“为了什么而倾听”是一种倾听立场。它往往是我所说的批判性倾听，即“这对我有什么好处？这有什么价值？这重要吗？这有用吗？我应该去别处吗？”你经常会遇到这种情况。我的意思是，最令人不舒服的情况是，任何去过展览会的人，都会遇到那种对话，人们总是越过你的肩膀，看看是否有更重要的人值得他们交谈，检查你的胸牌，“你很重要吗？”那种非常强硬的批判性倾听。批判性倾听本身没有错。它在商业中非常有用，但它可能不是你希望带回家的。你可能希望转向同理心倾听，即感受他人的感受，用心、用耳、用眼去倾听，进入他们的世界，真正寻求理解他们正在经历什么。人们说在一段关系中我们想要三件事：被倾听、被理解和被重视。而同理心倾听能做到所有这三点。但同样，你也不一定希望在工作中一直这样做。有时你必须强硬，或者管教别人，或者只是直接了当。例如，同理心倾听在军队中就行不通。“听从命令。”那里根本没有同理心。所以倾听立场有很多很多种。你可以根据需要创造任意多的立场，但关键是要有意识地知道你正在从何种立场倾听。

男性与女性的倾听差异

Julian Treasure: Listening for is very useful sometimes. Listening with, listening out of, for example, faith or fear, or listening, the masculine feminine listening tends to differ quite a lot as well. So there are a lot of different ways of listening. The masculine and feminine listening, I'm not surprised that before you said that it was a man who said you saved my marriage with your listening help. I feel like there's definitely a way in which we are socialized as men to be talkers, to be grabbing attention rather than giving attention and paying attention. There are a lot of books about this and with listening I talk about male listening (男性倾听: 倾向于寻找问题解决方案，目标导向) tends to be reductive, that is to say for a point, to solve a problem, to arrive at a given destination, there's a purpose to it, whereas female listening (女性倾听: 倾向于体验和分享感受，过程导向) tends to be more what I call expansive, that is to say there's no point to get to, there's no destination in mind, it's enjoying the journey with the person you're with wherever it goes really and so if those get confused. You get conversations like she comes home and says, "Oh, darling, I had a terrible day. This happened. This happened. This happened." And he looks up from the football game and says, "Darling, have a bath. It always makes you feel better." Now, in the male world, that's problem solved. Back to the football. In the female world, that was not what she was looking for. She was much more looking for, "Darling, sit down, have a glass of wine, tell me all about it." That's expansive listening. So solving a problem can be very useful sometimes, but we need to be conscious of the listening position we're in. And if we can move into the other one, that can be the solution to a lot of "you never listen to me," which is the biggest complaint in relationships.

Julian Treasure: 有时“为了什么而倾听”非常有用。带着信仰或恐惧去倾听，或者男性倾听和女性倾听方式也往往大相径庭。所以倾听的方式有很多种。关于男性和女性的倾听，我一点也不惊讶，在你之前，就有一个男人说你用你的倾听帮助挽救了他的婚姻。我觉得我们作为男性，在社会化过程中，确实被塑造成了善于表达、善于吸引注意力，而不是给予和关注注意力的人。有很多书都在谈论这个问题，在倾听方面，我谈到男性倾听往往是还原性的，也就是说，它为了一个目的，为了解决一个问题，为了到达一个既定目标，它是有目的性的；而女性倾听则更倾向于我所说的扩展性的，也就是说，它没有特定的目标，没有预设的终点，它只是享受与你在一起的人的旅程，无论走向何方。所以如果这两种倾听方式混淆了，你就会听到这样的对话：她回到家说：“哦，亲爱的，我今天过得糟透了。发生了这个，发生了那个，又发生了这个。”他从足球比赛中抬起头说：“亲爱的，去洗个澡吧。那总能让你感觉好些。”在男性的世界里，问题解决了。回到足球比赛。但在女性的世界里，那并不是她想要的。她更希望听到的是：“亲爱的，坐下来，喝杯葡萄酒，把所有事情都告诉我。”那才是扩展性倾听。所以，解决问题有时非常有用，但我们需要有意识地了解我们所处的倾听立场。如果我们能转换到另一种立场，那就能解决很多“你从不听我说话”的问题，而这正是关系中最大的抱怨。

最爱与最讨厌的声音：噪音的危害

主持人: I'm just curious. I want to know two rapid-fire kind of silly questions. The first one is what is your favorite sound?

主持人: 我只是好奇。我想问两个快速又有点傻的问题。第一个是，你最喜欢的声音是什么？

Julian Treasure: Gentle rain on leaves outside the window. And flip side, what is your least favorite sound? What gets under your skin and gives you the creepy crawlies?

Julian Treasure: 窗外树叶上轻柔的雨声。反过来，你最不喜欢的声音是什么？什么声音让你感到烦躁不安，毛骨悚然？

Julian Treasure: I think these days it is lots of people talking at loud volume in a very echoey, poorly designed room where I'm trying to listen to somebody and it's 90 decibels plus of noise going on there. And I'm finding it it's called the cocktail effect (鸡尾酒会效应: 指在嘈杂环境中，人们能够专注于某个特定声音，同时忽略其他声音的现象). It gets worse as you get older. I find that very challenging and also debilitating. Noise does fatigue us, stresses us and indeed if you're in that kind of a situation for lengthy periods of time it's increasing your risk of heart attack. Teachers work in classrooms which are quite noisy these days and it may well be they're shortening their lives by working in those classrooms at 65 decibels which is not that loud. You'd have to raise your voice to be heard but it's not shouting loud. If that's the noise level day after day your risk of heart attack is elevated. Lots of research on this now. So, we need to be careful about these things and the casual noise. Architects don't listen to the buildings they make. I have a TED talk about that as well. And a plea to architects to design with their ears. That is the biggest thing that frustrates me now is being in poorly designed spaces and just getting assailed by noise.

Julian Treasure: 我想现在最让我讨厌的是，在回声很大、设计糟糕的房间里，很多人大声说话，我试图听某人说话，而那里有90分贝以上的噪音。我发现这被称为鸡尾酒会效应。随着年龄增长，情况会变得更糟。我觉得这非常具有挑战性，也令人虚弱。噪音确实会让我们疲惫，给我们带来压力，事实上，如果你长时间处于那种环境中，会增加心脏病发作的风险。现在，老师们在相当嘈杂的教室里工作，他们很可能因为在65分贝的教室里工作而缩短寿命，这并不算太吵。你必须提高嗓门才能被听到，但不是大喊大叫。如果日复一日都是这种噪音水平，你的心脏病发作风险就会升高。现在有很多关于这方面的研究。所以，我们需要注意这些事情和随意的噪音。建筑师们不倾听他们建造的建筑。我也有一个关于这个的TED演讲。我呼吁建筑师们用耳朵去设计。现在最让我沮丧的事情就是身处设计糟糕的空间，被噪音侵扰。

结语

主持人: Julian Treasure, thank you so much for making the time to be on the show. It was an absolute pleasure talking to you.

主持人: 朱利安·特雷泽，非常感谢你抽出时间参加节目。与你交谈非常愉快。

Julian Treasure: It's been my pleasure, Chris. Thank you.

Julian Treasure: 克里斯，我也很高兴。谢谢你。

主持人: Hi everyone. I hope you enjoyed this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Before you go, please click the like and subscribe button to get alerts on inspiring TED talks and interviews. You can also head over to TED's own podcast channel, the TED Audio Collective, where we publish even more video podcasts. Thank you so much and hope to see you.

主持人: 大家好。希望你们喜欢这期《如何成为一个更好的人》节目。在离开之前，请点击点赞和订阅按钮，以便收到鼓舞人心的TED演讲和采访的提醒。你也可以前往TED自己的播客频道——TED音频合集，我们在那里发布更多视频播客。非常感谢，希望下次再见。