Kyra Blackwell: [music] 32B tells you the band size and the cup size of that bra in that brand, [laughter] but it really doesn't tell you anything else about how it's going to feel on your body or whether it's going to be suited to your unique shape and proportions and all that. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Rosie Garin: I'm Rosie Garin. And you're listening to the Wirecutter Show.

Rosie Garin: [music] Hey there. Before we jump into today's show, I want to let you know about a special offer. If you're not already a subscriber to the New York Times, you can now explore the Times for free. No paywalls. During your first month in the New York Times app, you can find all of your favorite shows like, I don't know, this show, Modern Love, Cannonball, and more on the new shows tab. Okay, let's get into it.

Rosie Garin: Hey, Kyra.

Kyra Blackwell: Hi, Rosie.

Rosie Garin: Today, we're talking about something that Wirecutter has covered forever and is consistently popular. I feel like you probably know what this is.

Kyra Blackwell: Ooh, something in the kitchen section.

Rosie Garin: It's bras. Oh, duh. It is really hard to find a good bra, and it makes total sense that people would come to Wirecutter to try and figure that out because there's so much you have to know. For the longest time, I assumed that you only could buy bras that actually fit you in a store that you would have to go in, get measured, find someone with the knowledge to help you. It's definitely not easy. We've got an expert here on staff who spent years covering bras. Her name is Zoe Vanderweide. She's a senior staff writer and she joined us not too long ago to talk swimsuits. We love Zoe. She spent hours going deep into Reddit threads, talking with bra makers and recruiting testers of all shapes and sizes and colors and creeds.

Kyra Blackwell: Totally. And that's why she's not just going to run through all the picks that she recommends in that guide, which you should go read, but she is going to walk us through what bras are supposed to do and how they're designed. It's going to be educational. Find out what your bra can do for you. We're going to take [music] a quick break and then be right back.

Rosie Garin: It's a lot of bras. Welcome back, Zoe. Good to see you.

Zoe Vanderweide: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Rosie Garin: Okay, let's start with a very, very basic question, a softball. Most people who wear a bra know it's supposed to offer support and comfort, but what else can a good bra do for you? Can it solve famine? [laughter]

Kyra Blackwell: [laughter and gasps]

Zoe Vanderweide: Well, like you said, of course, the bra provides support and comfort, which is especially important if you have larger or denser breasts. But, besides that, I mean, I think a really good bra can also change the way that your clothes fit. It can make you feel more confident and comfortable in your clothes and can really change your posture, how you carry yourself. So, it's not going to solve world famine, but it is pretty life changing for a lot of people who wear bras.

Rosie Garin: It can mop your floors. It can

Kyra Blackwell: I was [laughter] going to say the same thing. It just like changes your whole life. It sounds like if you get a good one

Rosie Garin: it can braid your hair. So, why is it so hard for people to find a bra that they like or get a good fit?

Zoe Vanderweide: Well, it's the unfortunate truth that a lot of bras are just uncomfortable. And that's partly because many of them are just poorly designed, but it's also because bras are a really technical piece of clothing. It requires a lot of complicated design to offer structured support to a huge variety of bodies. Bodies are diverse, and people have breasts of many different shapes and placements and sizes. And you don't get all of that information just when you're shopping based on size.

Kyra Blackwell: and you [clears throat] don't get all of that information in like a 32B label, right? There's just you have to really try things on.

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah, you definitely don't. I mean, that 32B tells you the band size and the cup size of that bra in that brand, [laughter] but it really doesn't tell you anything else about how it's going to feel on your body or whether it's going to be suited to your unique shape and proportions and all that. There's a lot of variables.

Rosie Garin: Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot that you can kind of observe about yourself that will help you. Right? Like is your breast shape shallow or projected? Are your roots wide or narrow? How far apart are your breasts set? Is tissue out to the sides or center? Is there more fullness on the top or bottom of your breasts?

Kyra Blackwell: Zoe, thank you for asking cuz no one ever asks me that, [laughter]

Zoe Vanderweide: right?

Kyra Blackwell: What does that actually mean?

Zoe Vanderweide: Okay, so when we talk about your roots, we're talking about how your breasts are placed on your chest wall.

Zoe Vanderweide: Okay? If you have wide roots, then your breasts spread out farther across your chest. There's just like a greater surface area where your breast tissue is, whereas if you have narrow roots, that's not the case. Projected and shallow breasts, that's like are your breasts sticking straight out or are they kind of spread out across your chest? If you have wide roots and shallow breasts, you have tissue that's kind of like spread across your chest, whereas if you have narrow roots and projected breasts, you have tissue that's really kind of going out forward. And all of that is going to affect how a bra fits on you.

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah. I mean, I think you should be able to describe your breasts and you should be able to describe them well so that you can look at bra reviews and guides and be like, "Oh, this is a bra that's going to work for me."

Zoe Vanderweide: There are a lot of resources online that can be very helpful. There's like a a subreddit called a bra that fits,

Zoe Vanderweide: that's a a real treasure trove of information. It's been around for a while and there's a lot of information on it. They have a great six measurement calculator that you can use with a measuring tape at home that's going to give you really accurate sizing. But they also have like a breast shape visual guide that can help you kind of determine some of these things about your breasts.

Rosie Garin: So, not like a Victoria Secret where you go into the

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah. Then you're going to get their specific sizing convention. And what's really nice is to have something that's brand agnostic. The problem with traditional sizing methods is that they often use what's called a plus-four sizing method.

Zoe Vanderweide: And that plus-four sizing method basically has you measure your underbust, add 4 in, and then calculate your cup size from there. And what that results in is a band that is too large and a cup that is too small. And the reason that bra brands do that is because making a lot of bra sizes is really expensive,

Kyra Blackwell: but and also with every single like cup size paired with every single band size, right?

Zoe Vanderweide: Like the number of permutations, it's not it doesn't scale well. It's a difficult thing to invest in.

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah. So, what bra companies typically do is they try to make sizes that can kind of like conform to the most bodies possible even if it doesn't really fit them that well. And so, that's why there are like so many 34Bs and 36Cs out there because you can kind of fit a lot of people into that who actually should be wearing like a 30D or something or a 32DD.

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah. So, first of all, when we're talking about the band of the bra, which is the band that goes around your rib cage, the band provides the vast majority of support in a bra. A lot of people think it's the straps, but actually 80 to 90% of the support is coming from the band. And so, if you have a band that's too loose, the bra is not supporting you, and that weight is going into your shoulders. And that can cause shoulder pain, neck pain, back pain.

Rosie Garin: How about the straps, Zoe? I would have imagined that the straps of the bra would be doing a lot of the lifting and supporting.

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah, this I mean, the straps do provide some of the lifting and support. You know, in ter if you're talking about support, wider straps are going to be more supportive for people who have larger busts because they're going to distribute that weight more evenly over your shoulders. Cross back straps or racerback straps,

Kyra Blackwell: Mhm.

Zoe Vanderweide: Um, so that's one of the more supportive strap configurations as well. Whereas like wider set straps or thin straps are going to offer less support and they're going to tend to slip. But again, the band is really doing the work.

Kyra Blackwell: Is there anything we should know about padding and underwire? I see underwire still available out there. Do people love it? What's the deal?

Zoe Vanderweide: In general, an underwire bra is going to be more supportive than a wireless bra. And if you have a larger or denser bust, underwire can really provide that structural support that's hard to get in a wireless bra. But a lot of people hate underwire because if an underwire bra doesn't fit, that wire is poking into your breast tissue, it's poking into your ribs, it's really painful. A well-fitting underwire bra, that wire should encapsulate all of your breast tissue and sit flush against your rib cage, not sitting on any breast tissue. And then you also have the gore, which is the piece between the cups.

Zoe Vanderweide: And the way that the gore fits on you can tell you a lot about how the bra as a whole is fitting on you. So like on a well-fitting bra, that gore should be sitting flush against your chest. It should not be floating away from your body. If the gore is floating away from your chest, that usually means the cup is too small and your breasts are pushing the bra away from your body. If the underwire is poking you on the sides, it might mean the cup is too small or that the underwire is the wrong width for your roots.

Zoe Vanderweide: Um, I don't think that you have to get fitted in in real life. I think it's definitely like a great thing to do, especially if you've struggled with finding bras that fit, but you can absolutely do it at home. If you are going to do it at home, I really recommend getting a soft measuring tape, using the r/ABraThatFits calculator. And then also practicing the "scoop and swoop." When you put a bra on, you lean forward, you reach into the cup and pull all your breast tissue forward into the cup from the side and the back. That ensures all your breast tissue is actually inside the underwire and inside the cup, not trapped outside the band.

Rosie Garin: Yeah.

Zoe Vanderweide: And a lot of bra brands really favor the 36C, that former sizing convention, because it means they have to make fewer sizes,

Zoe Vanderweide: right? When you start looking more into like higher-end or specialty brands, especially brands that are, you know, really great for larger busts, then you're going to start seeing more of those sizes that have a smaller band and larger cups like 28 and 30 bands and G, H, J cups. And finding a bra that actually matches your measurements is completely game-changing.

Rosie Garin: [music] Welcome back. Today our guest is Zoe Vanderweide. We're talking about shopping for comfortable bras that actually fit you.

Kyra Blackwell: That's right. So Zoe, we have some questions about how to take care of bras. But first, you need to find one that you actually like. We want to run through some scenarios with you and have you suggest some great bras for different people.

Zoe Vanderweide: You bet.

Rosie Garin: So, what if you're someone who feels like it's hard to find a bra that fits and thinks they may be in between standard sizes?

Zoe Vanderweide: Okay, this is a good one. So, we have one recommendation in our guide for this very person. It's from a brand called Evelyn & Bobbie and it is their Defy Bra. Zero wires, very smooth, like buttery smooth fabric. It has this incredible molded technology that adapts to your shape, so it's super forgiving if you are between sizes or if your size fluctuates throughout the month. It is a little on the pricier side, though.

Kyra Blackwell: What do we mean by pricey? It's like 90 bucks or something, which is a lot for a wireless bra. However, it's a bit of a unicorn. I had testers telling me like, "I never thought I could wear a wireless bra and feel supported."

Rosie Garin: Nice.

Zoe Vanderweide: And that one is really nice, especially for folks with, I would say, like small to medium-sized boobs. I think we would be remiss not to ask you about someone who's breastfeeding and needs access. For nursing, we love the Kindred Bravely Sublime Hands-Free Nursing and Pumping Bra. It's super comfortable, really supportive, and it has that dual functionality for nursing and hands-free pumping.

Kyra Blackwell: How about somebody with small to medium breasts who want something comfortable to maybe wear around the house or on errands, but not out out?

Zoe Vanderweide: Well, so I'll go back and reference that same bra that I was just talking about, the Harper Wilde Triangle Bra. It's like a personal favorite of mine. And it's wireless, buttery, it's soft, it's stretchy, it feels like nothing on your body. But it gives a nice shape, looks great under t-shirts, and it's reasonably priced.

Rosie Garin: What if you are someone who's older and worried about visible lumps and bumps from their skin being squeezed by a bra?

Zoe Vanderweide: Well, we have one recommendation that kind of jumps to mind here, which is the Wacoal Halo Lace bra. It's an unlined underwire bra made of this incredibly soft, stretchy lace that lays completely flat against your skin. The band is nice and wide and smoothing, so it doesn't cut into your skin or create bumps. And because it's unlined, it molds to your natural shape rather than forcing your breasts into a rigid cup.

Kyra Blackwell: People are going to ask about a sports bra or bras for people who do a lot of high impact exercise. We have a guide for that.

Zoe Vanderweide: We have a guide for that. I've never done a high impact exercise in my life. So I

Rosie Garin: It will not the byline will not [laughter] say Zoe Vanderweide. How about someone on a budget looking for a simple bra?

Zoe Vanderweide: My favorite kind of go-to brand for like inexpensive but really great bras is Harper Wilde. Their "The Base" bra is a lightly lined t-shirt bra, costs around $45 to $50. It's well-made, durable, super smooth under clothes, and they have a great recycling program for old bras.

Rosie Garin: Versatile.

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah. So, I think it's a really great and not too pricey bra.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay. Our last scenario is someone who finds it challenging to fasten a bra in the back.

Zoe Vanderweide: This is a good question. So, I have read the comments on the guide and I know that readers are interested in bras with front closures. We have not yet done a big round of testing on bras with front closures. Front closures can be great for people with limited mobility or shoulder pain, though they usually lack band adjustability. But, we do plan to consider some front clasp options when we do retesting for the guide.

Rosie Garin: Oh, cool.

Zoe Vanderweide: Which may be easier for some people, may also be harder for some people. So, it kind of depends on what you're working with. But, we do plan to consider some front clasp options when we do retesting for the guide.

Rosie Garin: [music] You've thrown out some pricing so far, but how much should we be expecting to spend on this new bra, Zoe? What's the range?

Zoe Vanderweide: I mean, I would say in general, our picks fall somewhere between 50 and 100 bucks.

Rosie Garin: It's a lot.

Zoe Vanderweide: Cheaper bras obviously are out there. What I have found is that cheaper bras tend to not last as long. If you have bigger boobs, it is unfortunately often worth investing in the pricier bras because you're just asking your bra to do more and they are pieces of engineering if you think about it that way. like you're asking it to do a lot. Um, you know, like if you're a teenager or if you, you know, just have small boobs, you can probably get away with buying cheapy bralettes and like living your best life. [laughter] But this is like a garment that you're probably going to be wearing a lot. You don't need that many of them to build like a functional bra wardrobe,

Kyra Blackwell: but you're supposed to be washing them after every use, right? So, ideally, you'd want one for at least every day of the week. No,

Zoe Vanderweide: I don't think you have to wash your bra after every use. I don't think so. I mean, I think what you should be doing is letting your bra rest. By that I mean you shouldn't be wearing the same bra consecutively every day. That's because you know almost all bras contain elastane for stretch. And if you continually are stretching it, stretching it, stretching it, it's going to wear out faster and it's going to kind of lose its shape. Whereas, if you allow it to rest, if you give it a day to kind of like tighten back up, just sitting in your drawer, it'll feel like it fits better for longer between washes. At the minimum, you want to have like three to four bras in your everyday rotation so that you have one to wear, one to rest, and one to wash.

Kyra Blackwell: And how long should we be expecting our bras to last?

Zoe Vanderweide: A lot of the experts out there will say that, you know, a bra lasts like a year. I think that's crazy. Like [laughter] I

Rosie Garin: $100 a bra times four per year.

Kyra Blackwell: Every year a big bra budget.

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah. I don't think that that is realistic for most people. I certainly don't buy new bras every year. You know, I have bras still kicking that are 3 and four years old that are totally fine. But it really comes down to like taking good care of your bras.

Kyra Blackwell: And what does that mean exactly? Like what how do you make them last other than not wearing them consecutively?

Rosie Garin: Yeah. You got to let that elastin uh rest.

Zoe Vanderweide: Yeah. Get let it let it rest. So I don't think you need to wash them after every single wear. Washing clothes wears them out faster. Right. When you do wash your bras, you can to like really baby them. You can hand wash them with a no-rinse detergent, which is like a detergent where you can just put in a capful and then let your clothes sit in there, swish them around, and then take them out. You don't need to rinse them. You don't need to agitate them. You don't need to wring them out. That's going to be the gentlest method. And then, of course, you want to air dry. Preferably air dry flat cuz that's going to cause the least strain on the fabric. To be perfectly candid, I do not do that with my bras. like I'm not so precious with them. Um, but I would say at a minimum you can machine wash your bras on a gentle cycle like in cool water in a bra bag. So that would be mesh delicate bags and then air dry it and that will preserve your bras well over time. The other advice I would give would be when you're shopping, you always want to buy a bra that has a band that fits you snugly on the loosest setting because that bra band is going to stretch out over time. That's why they have the three rows of hooks, so that over time as the fabric stretches out, you can adjust and tighten it. So that will also buy you some time in that bra. Yeah. Yeah. And then like I said, just, you know, having three to four bras in your rotation so that you're not wearing them consecutively.

Rosie Garin: Zoe, we've made it to our last question. What's the last thing you bought that you've really loved?

Zoe Vanderweide: I recently bought a set of diamond art on Amazon.

Kyra Blackwell: Oo, what is that?

Zoe Vanderweide: So, it's like bedazzling. Like basically it's like a paint by numbers art kit with like these tiny little bedazzly beads that you stick onto it. I like it because it's meticulous and careful work, but it's also sort of mindless. Like you're not doing a lot of mental work, but it results in this lovely thing. I'm doing like a set with uh insects and they're very sparkly and beautiful and I'm putting them on a closet door. That's really nice.

Rosie Garin: Sounds lovely. Yeah.

Kyra Blackwell: Do you know the name? probably like [laughter] Yeah, Amazon.

Zoe Vanderweide: The name is Amazon.

Zoe Vanderweide: I'm not saying this is the best version of this product, [laughter]

Kyra Blackwell: but it's a fun product. Thank you so much for [music] joining us, Zoe.

Zoe Vanderweide: Thank you for having me. [music]

Rosie Garin: Kyra is always so great. She's so knowledgeable.

Kyra Blackwell: So knowledgeable. No idea there was so much to know about bras.

Rosie Garin: What are you taking from this episode?

Kyra Blackwell: Well, maybe it sounds obvious, but it sounds like you really have to know yourself first. You need to know what is going on with your situation before you can even begin to try to find a bra [music] that fits you. And that might also include you trying a bunch of different styles, maybe different brands because they're not standardized. So, it's a bit of trial and error.

Rosie Garin: There's a lot of variables. Yeah. I think one of the most interesting things Zoe shared is the importance of a band that fits. That that actually is even more important in terms of support than the cups or the straps. I thought that was super interesting. I also thought it was interesting her recommendations around giving your bras a day off.

Kyra Blackwell: Oh yes.

Rosie Garin: You know, giving them that four 4 day work week

Kyra Blackwell: so you don't stretch out the band. That was

Rosie Garin: Can't stretch out the band. [music] That's it for us. Thank you so much for joining us. If you want to find out more about Zoe's reporting on bras or anything else she reports on, check out our website and you can [music] find a link to that in the show notes. Kyra, talk to you soon. Bye. [music] The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by me, Rosie Garin, and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Maziello and Nick Pitman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Eup, Rowan Nisto, Katherine Anderson, and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Frumin is Wirecutter's editor-in-chief. I'm Kyra Blackwell. And I'm Rosie Garin. Thank you for listening. My partner just got me a tattoo machine and I'm going to start learning how to tattoo while I'm on mat leave and that's going to be so fun. [laughter] Like real tattoos.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah.