开场与 AIE 上海
嗯，这是一期特别的播客，因为它是关于 AIE 上海的。AI 上海是中国的第一届 AIE。呃，这是由 Standard Partners 带给我们的，他们是我们在当地的合作伙伴之一。我们在全球有几个 AIE 活动并不是由我的团队运营的。而这是上海的第一届。我一直想把 AIE 带到中国。我认为这里有很多东西方的交融，呃，以及中国很多需要与全球社区分享和传播的进展。
英文原文
Well, this is a special podcast because it's about AIE Shanghai. AI Shanghai is the first AIE in China. Uh, it's brought to us by Standard Partners, which is one of the local partners that we have. We have a few AIES worldwide that my team doesn't run. And this is the first one in Shanghai. I've always wanted to bring AIE to China. I think there's a lot of east meets west uh and a lot of progress in China that needs to be shared and distributed among the global community.中国对我们超级感兴趣。嗯，Latent Space 有很多中国粉丝，我会在 YouTube 的屏幕上展示其中的几位。呃，首先我想向 Mang Shao 致谢，他是我们的铁杆粉丝，呃，基本上把每一期播客都翻译成中文，我对此非常非常感激。嗯，总的来说，我也想向中国所取得的进展表示祝贺和赞扬，呃，不仅是在开源模型方面，还有在机器人领域，呃，以及很多其他类的初创公司。呃，大家知道，谁还记得去年这个时候成立、后来搬去新加坡的 manis 呢？嗯，显然 open claw 也经历了一波大发展。我们聊了很多诸如此类的事情：当地的整体氛围如何，中国的 AI 社区规模为何如此不同，被采纳的是哪些类型的事物，以及我猜还有创业文化——人们常听说 996，我们讨论了那里的现实，相比于像 Cognition 这样的地方。嗯，最后我们还聊了一点 Latent Space 的起源故事，如果你是比较新的听众，可能还没听过这部分。聊了它是什么时候创立的、为什么要创立，以及我们如何看待运营目前正在做的多个节目。嗯，还有一点关于安全和对齐之类的内容。所以，这里面适合每一个人的内容都有一些。如果大家关注 Latent Space 有一段时间了，基本上就是专门为粉丝们准备的。
英文原文
China's super interested in us. Um, there's been many Chinese fans of the Inspace and I'll flash a few of them up on screen here on YouTube and uh, primarily I want to recognize Mang Shao who is our primary fan uh, always translating basically every episode into Chinese which I which I am super appreciative of. Um and in general I think I want to also congratulate and and celebrate uh the progress that China has made uh not just in open source models but in robotics uh and a lot of other uh sort of startups uh you know who can remember manis that was started uh this time last year and then moved to Singapore. Um and obviously open claw had a big run and we talk a lot about what that like what that's like in terms of the the overall mood on the ground and how the scale of AI community is so different in China and the the type of things get adopted as well as the I guess the startup culture people hear a lot about 996 we talk about the reality of that versus uh in a place like Cognition um and finally we also talk a little bit about the origin story of lat which some of you may not have heard if you're newer to the podcast. Talk about when it was started and why it was started and how we think about running the multiple shows that we're running. Um, and a little bit about safety and alignment and all that other stuff. So, there's a little bit here for everyone. It's basically for the fans if you've been following the inspace for a while.嗯，如果你对 AI 上海感兴趣，它没有进行直播，但我们会在某个时候把它发到 YouTube 上。明天开始。所以在中国看这个视频的各位，我真的非常期待它的举行。感谢 Ming 和团队组织这一切。嗯，我还要向 Hanu Leu 致敬，基本上是他把这件事情推动起来的。我——我们——你知道，有几次它差点就办不成了，但能把 AI 带到上海，把 Latent Space 带到中国，总体来说真是太令人兴奋了。所以，[嗅鼻声] 感谢收看，期待接下来的采访。
英文原文
Um, and if you're interested in AI Shanghai, it's not being live streamed, but we're going to post it up on the YouTube at some point. Starts tomorrow. So anyone here in China who's watching this, I'm really looking forward to having it. And thanks to Ming and um team for organizing all of this. Um I also have to shout out Hanu Leu who basically got this thing started. I we you know it nearly did not happen a few times but it's so so exciting to have AI in Shanghai and to bring lean space to China in general. So [snorts] thanks for watching and look forward to the interview.精选片花
这些模型非常擅长点遍你软件的每一个界面，然后独立复现它。[音乐]
英文原文
The models are very good at clicking through every screen of your software and then replicating it independently. [music]噢是的。没错。所以我一接触到你的软件，就能克隆它。那就祝你好运了。有很多 [音乐] 从来没写过一天代码的自以为是的名嘴，他们都在说：“啊，我预测离 AGI 大概就 2 年了。你们大家以后都不会有工作了。你们需要 [音乐] 为接下来的事情做好准备。”可巧的是，不管接下来是什么，看起来都像是他们的工作。
英文原文
Oh yeah. Right. So the moment I have access to your software, I can clone it. So good luck. There's a lot of [music] talking heads who have never coded a single day in their lives. They're all like, "Ah, my timeline to AGI is like 2 years away. All of you are going to have not going to have jobs in the future. You need to [music] prepare for what's next." Conveniently, whatever is next looks like their job.我有自己的 Canal。我有自己的 Google Drive。我有自己的 GitHub。我是认真的。他们是极其优秀的创业者。他们生活在错误的国家。如果他们生活在美国，他们能干掉亚马逊，能干掉像 Facebook 这样的公司。他们没能更富有的唯一原因，就是他们生活在中国。AI 毁灭论。呃，在整个人类历史上，每当一个更先进的文明出现并遇到一个较不先进的文明时，较不先进的文明就会灭绝。而这东西的演进速度大约比我们快 1,000 倍。
英文原文
I I have my own Canal. I have my own Google Drive. I have my own GitHub. I'm serious. They're such good founders. They live in the wrong country. If they live in the US, they'll kill Amazon. They'll kill like Facebook. The only reason they're not richer is they live in China. AI doom. Uh in all of human history, when a more advanced civilization comes along and meets a less advanced civilization, the less advanced civilization goes extinct. And this thing is evolving roughly 1,000 times faster than us.采访对话：背景与经历
你好，Shawn。非常感谢你来参加这个节目。我是 Latent Space 播客的长期听众了。我知道中国的许多创业者和 AI 工程师也从你的工作以及播客上的对话中学到了很多。而且我也很感激你今年第一次把 AIE——AI 工程师大会——带到了上海。所以呃，我想几个月前我也在 Driveforth 上读过你的文章，关于你与硅谷关系的随笔，你在新加坡和这里之间来回搬迁，我猜这就是为什么以及你怎么在上次搬到硅谷时真正创造或发明了“AI 工程师”这个角色的原因。而且这让我觉得非常特别，这次你第一次把 AI 带到了上海。所以，呃，能跟我们聊聊你的背景，以及你与……的关系吗？
英文原文
Hi, Sean. So thank you for joining me for this show. So I've been a good a longtime listener for the latent space podcast. I know that many founders in AI engineers in China as well have already learned a lot from your work and conversations on the podcast as well. And also I'm grateful that you know you are bringing the AIE the AI engineer conference to Shanghai the first time this year. So uh I think also like several months ago I read your piece actually on drive forth about your essay on you know your relationship with uh the Silicon Valley you moved back and forth from um Singapore and here I guess that's why how you actually coin or invented the the role of AI engineer the last time you moved to Silicon Valley and also this just makes me feel like it's very special and that this time you bring the AI to to Shanghai the first time And so uh tell us a little bit about your background and your relationship with我——我应该纠正你一件不对的事情。并不是我把 AI 带到了上海。是上海把 AI 带到了上海。好的。
英文原文
I I should correct you on one thing that's that's wrong. I did not bring AI to Shanghai. Shanghai brought AI to Shanghai. Okay.没错。呃，比如 Hanoa，还有呃，Leu 和 Mying，以及 Standard Partners 的那些人。嗯，所以我非常感激他们，因为我们——我一直想在中国做点什么，但我不是中国公民，在那里也没有人脉或关系。我认为大洋两岸都对美中、中国、总体上的中国 AI 抱有很大的兴趣。你知道，凡是能把高质量对话展现出来的努力，嗯，我认为中国的 AIE 都能在这方面提供帮助。所以，长话短说，我来自新加坡。呃，你知道，第五代新加坡人，不好意思，第五代华人，对吧？大多数——呃，新加坡人绝大多数是华人。嗯，我觉得我是——人们问我……
英文原文
>> Right. Uh it's like Hanoa and like uh Leu and Mying and those those folks stand up partners. Um so I'm very grateful for them because we I always wanted to do something in China but I'm not a Chinese citizen and I have no contacts or relationships there. I think that there's a lot of interest on both sides of the world on uh US and China, China, Chinese AI in general. You know, whatever we can do to to surface like highquality conversations, um I think that AIE in China can help there. So, my TLDDR is I'm from Singapore. Uh you know, fifth generation Singaporean, sorry, fifth generation Chinese, right? Most uh Singaporean is majority Chinese. Um I think I am from people asked me like噢
英文原文
>> oh优秀的华人
英文原文
>> nice Chinese我，呃
英文原文
>> I uh呃，所以，嗯，我也不知道，那感觉就像是身为海外华人的体验，对吧？我们不知道自己的祖籍在哪里，因为代际融合混杂，没有人保留过任何记录，甚至有时候没人知道生日，你知道，但是我是第五代新加坡人，呃，在新加坡出生长大，呃，去美国读了大学，呃，第一段职业生涯是在金融界。我——我在交易、投资银行和对冲基金干了 10 年，不好意思，8 年。
英文原文
uh so um and I don't know and like that's that's like how it feels like to be like Chinese diaspora right like we don't know what our origins are because it's just mixed that nobody kept any records like nobody even knows our birthdays like sometimes you know but fifth generation Singapore uh grew and raised up in Singapore and uh went to the US for university and uh did my first career in finance. I I was in uh trading and investment banking and uh hedge funds for 10 years sorry 8 years然后转向了科技界。所以我在亚马逊和几家初创公司工作过，然后在四年前成为独立人士，负责 Latent Space，呃，察觉到将会有“AI 工程师”这么一回事，然后我——我创办了 AIE。
英文原文
>> and then switched to um tech. So I worked in uh Amazon and a few startups and then four years ago became independent role lead in space uh figured out that there was going to be this AI engineer thing and then I I started AIE.太酷了。而且我知道你现在其实身兼数职。你在做 Latent Space 播客，你在写 newsletter，而且我还发现你在几家初创公司担任不同角色，比如 Cognition 等等。
英文原文
>> Cool. And I know that actually you have different roles right now. You're you're doing the uh latent space podcast you're writing newsletters and also I find out that you have different roles in um several startups like connection etc.是的。
英文原文
Yes.对，就是想了解一下，你在不同的角色里目前的头衔或身份是什么，以及——
英文原文
>> Yeah. just wonder you know you know what your current titles or roles in different different roles and好的。这很有意思，因为我最近不得不核查我的税务情况 [笑声]，弄清楚自己到底有哪些收入。最大的一块是 Cognition，我是顾问，目前仍然是 Cognition 的顾问。呃，之前有一段时间我曾是那里的全职员工，所以基本的来龙去脉是：呃，我有三家公司，我有 AIE，我有 Latent Space，然后我还有其他杂项——以前是 Small AI，那是我个人的创业载体，呃，基本上被 Cognition 收购了。在那儿工作了 6 个月，然后退下来转任顾问，因为 AIE 现在已经是一个全球性的大会机构，我必须担任 CEO，不能再在这里当半职员工了。Fireworks 规模很大，Modal 规模很大，Supabase……嗯，所以呃，我认为如果你是硅谷的网络红人，或者在开发者关系圈子里待了很久，这是很普遍的事情。这就是我的专业特长所在：我既懂技术，同时也能写作和演讲，这对大家来说是一个很好的技能组合，因为任何初创公司都会乐意付费让你去聊他们的产品。我想，然后你就会开始和一堆项目合作。所以像是……这并不是一条寻常的职业道路，我实际上甚至不建议大多数人这么走，但这就是我人生中的角色，我可以为几家不同的公司做顾问，呃，与他们合作以换取报酬，大致就是这么个思路。
英文原文
>> yeah so it's very funny because I recently had to go over my taxes [laughter] >> like figure out like what money do I have so cognition is the biggest one is I'm an adviser I'm still an adviser to cognition uh I was an employee for a long time for for for a while so basically the idea was uh I have three companies I have AIE I have latent space and then I have miscellaneous it used to be small AI which is my personal sort of startup vehicle >> uh basically got acquired into cognition worked there for 6 months and then stepped back to be an adviser because AIE is now you know a global conference conference organization and I had to be CEO I couldn't be part-time employee parttime here is very big fireworks is very big modal is very big superbase um so uh I think it's a very common thing if you're a Silicon Valley influencer uh or you've been in developer relation circles for a long time so that that is my specialty in which is that I am a technical but I also write and speak and that is a good combination of skills to have for people because any startup will want to pay you to like talk about their stuff and I think you know then then you start working with a bunch of things so like uh a lot of uh this is not a normal career I actually don't even recommend it for most people but it is my role in life that I I can advise uh a few different companies and uh work with them in in exchange for talk and that's the that's the rough idea.我只是想更深入探讨一下 Latent Space 早期的一些情况，因为我知道我读过你的文章，你早期开始公开学习，然后把学到的东西分享给大家，呃，再然后你觉得需要去把你和不同人交流的谈话转录出来……
英文原文
I just want to deep dive a bit more into the early days of latent space because I know I wrote read your essay that you start to you know learn in public and then tell everyone what you learned uh in the early days and then and then you felt the need you need to you know uh transfer the conversation you talk with different公开学习与 Latent Space 的起源
在线研究人员，然后成为早期 Latent Space 的一些对话，大概就是……
英文原文
researchers online and then become the early some conversation of the latent space probably just你知道，对，聊聊过去的日子，你是怎么建立起 Latent Space 的，还有……
英文原文
>> you know yeah talking about the past days how you build up latent space and这里面你其实把两件不同的事混在一起了，对吧？第一件事是公开学习（learning in public）的原则，这是我离开金融界去科技行业工作时意识到的。为什么科技行业对我来说好得多、顺利得多？感觉舒服得多。对于在这两个领域都感兴趣的人来说，最核心的原因在于——两个都是高薪职位，比如声望很高的工作——区别在于金融是零和博弈，对吧？如果我知道某些信息并告诉了你，那个真理就会贬值。
英文原文
>> there's there's kind of two different things that you're mixing together, right? The first thing is the principle of learning in public, which is something I realized when I left finance and I worked in tech. Why is tech so much better going so much better for me? It feels so much more comfortable. Uh and the very core reason for people who are interested in both fields both are high paying jobs like uh prestigious jobs. The difference is finance is zero sum, right? If I know something and I tell you uh that that truth loses value,对吧？但在科技行业，大部分东西都是正和的。如果我知道某些信息并告诉你，它会增值。对于从金融跨界到科技行业的人来说，这是一个非常不同的范式，而且让人感到非常解脱。这意味着大家会走上台，开源他们的成果。
英文原文
>> right? But in tech it is most stuff is things are positive some if I know something I tell you it increases value uh and that's a very different paradigm for people who are crossing over from finance to tech and it's very liberating it means that people will get on stage and they open source their work他们分享代码，搞砸了就分享自己搞砸了的事。在金融界，不，就像［笑声］你想假装自己从来没搞砸过，一切都是绝密。我认为这是我真正铭记在心的事情。我想我意识到了——哦，发生在我身上的另一件事是，我的第一份工作是在 Two Sigma，这仍然属于金融领域，但我做的是软件工程方面的工作，然后我发现我遇到了一个很差劲的老板。所以我变得非常无聊，开始做大量的写作和演讲，因为在工作中我无法做我想做的事情，因为他们不让我做。但显而易见，因为我在工作中太无聊了，然后我把我所有的精力都投入到了工作之外的事情上，那么显然那件事就成功起步了，因为没有其他人在做那个。
英文原文
>> they share their code they screw up they share it that they screwed up in finance no like [laughter] you want to pretend that you never screwed up and everything is top secret and I think that is something that I really took to heart and I I think I realized that oh the the other thing that happened to me was my first job was at two sigma which is still in finance but I was on the software engineering side and I realized that I had a bad boss. So then I got really bored and I started to do a lot of writing and speaking because at work I wasn't able to do the things that I wanted to do cuz they didn't let me. But like obviously because I was so bored at work and then I put all my energy into the the stuff outside of work then obviously that thing took off because no one else is doing that.相比之下，那就变成了你可以选择自己的老板，对吧？就像大多数人有工作时，他们加入一家公司，被分配一个老板，被分配一个团队。大多数时候你甚至不知道团队好不好之类的，然后你发现它不好，你就被困住了。当你公开学习时，你实际上可以选择自己的老板，你选择——比如为自己工作，选择自己的老板，所有这些事情，所以这非常非常好。我想快进到 Latent Space，那是在 Stable Diffusion 出现时创立的，这是在 ChatGPT 之前。
英文原文
>> And by comparison that becomes you being able to choose your own boss, right? Like most people when they have a job they join a company they are assigned a boss they assigned a team. Most of most of the time you don't even know if like the team is good or not like whatever and then you find out it's not good. You're stuck. when you learn in public you actually can choose your own boss you choose you like work for yourself choose your own boss all those things so it's very very good I think the fast forward to laten space that was created when stable diffusion happened this is before chbttt当 Stable Diffusion 出现时，我在一家发展得不太顺利的初创公司，叫 Airbyte。它今天依然运转得还可以，但没有人会称它为火箭般飞速发展的公司，这只是客观事实，我对创始人们也会这么说。但因为我当时觉得，好吧，我学过一些机器学习课程，但我不是 AI 专家。我对这个领域太感兴趣了。我进入这个领域只有一种方法，那就是公开学习。所以我就是这么做的。我开了一个博客，我开始分析、学习，并把我的学习心得写进博客里。起初，没有人会注意到。但后来渐渐地，如果你开始谈论别人的成果，比如真的是 Stability AI 的 CEO Emad Mostaque——他们创造了 Stable Diffusion，这也是我开博客的原因——读了那篇分析 Stable Diffusion 的博文，他说这篇写得很好。我认为那项工作基本上就是我学习 AI 的过程，就像过去大概 5 年那样一直死磕并撰写相关内容，我觉得那确实就是……你知道，就像“你不够资历”。
英文原文
>> when stable diffusion happened I was in a startup that was not going very well uh it's called airbyte it's still doing okay today but nobody would call it a rocket ship that's just that's objectively true and I would say that to the founders but because I was like okay I have I I did like some machine learning courses but I'm not an AI expert. I am so interested in this field. There's there's only one way for me to get into the field which is to learn in public. And so that's what I did. I started a blog and I started um analyzing and learning and like writing up my learnings into a blog. And at first nobody will notice. But then eventually if you start talking about people's things like uh literally Immad Mustak who's the CEO of stability AI which created stable diffusion which is the the reason I started the blog read the blog post analyzing stable diffusion and he said this is good and I think like that work was basically me learning AI like the past like 5 years of like just grinding and and and writing about that and I think that is really the you know like you are not qualified今天我可能依然没那么有资历，但我比 4 年前的自己稍微更有资历一些了。所以挺好的。而且我认为这是你能学习的唯一途径。比如我认为，尤其在亚洲文化中，非常看重凭证主义（credentialism）。
英文原文
And I'm still probably not that qualified today, but I'm a bit more qualified than I used to be 4 years ago. So that's good. And I think that's the only way you can learn. Like I think um especially in Asian cultures, there's a lot of emphasis on credentialism.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.就像……
英文原文
>> Like对吧，就像你需要那张纸。你需要某种资格证明。比如如果不是学位，就是证书；如果不是证书，你必须做过一份相关工作。那你要怎样才能得到这份工作呢？你必须有学位。这就像是一个死循环，基本上意味着你在 16 岁时就必须决定这辈子要做什么。但我认为人生比这灵活得多。如果你想转型，你可以选择转型。你只需要非常坚持，并且也要意识到，并不能因为你工作非常努力，你就有资格获胜。你必须非常努力，而且要足够优秀。我认为很多人去尝试，很多人失败了，他们会想：“为什么它会失败？”嗯，因为你不优秀。太遗憾了。但有些人去尝试，他们付出了努力，而且他们有判断力。他们确实致力于实质性的事情，而不是无关紧要的事情。公开学习通常就是这样的，比如……
英文原文
right like you need that piece of paper. You need like some qualification. Like if it's not if it's not a degree, it's a certification. If it's not a certification, you must have had a job uh to do it. And how do you get the job? You must have a degree. like it's just like a infinite loop of things that basically mean that when you're 16 you need to decide what you want to do in life. But like I think life is a lot more flexible than that. Uh and you can choose to pivot if you want to. Uh you just have to be really persistent and also uh realize that just because you worked very hard, you're not entitled to win. You have to work very hard and be good. I think a lot of people try, a lot of people fail and they're like, "Why didn't it fail?" Well, you're not good. Too bad. But some people try and they they worked and and they had judgment. Uh they really did uh work on substantial things rather than insubstantial things. Uh and that's what that's generally what happens with learning public like umAI Engineer 概念的诞生
所以，是的，他们创办了 LSpace，然后非常非常有趣的是，LSpace 当初只是一个博客。它只是……
英文原文
>> so so yeah that start they started lspace and then uh very very interestingly lspace was just a blog. It was just刚才只是一个博客。是的，仅仅是个博客，除了“这是 swyx 在写关于 AI 的东西”之外，我没有任何其他的想法，仅此而已。但我们碰巧举办了一些活动，比如一些聚会，比如，你知道 ChatGPT 出来了，显然是有史以来最令人兴奋的事情。
英文原文
>> stars was just a blog. Yes, just the blog and I had no other no other idea apart from this is swigs writing about AI that's it but we happened to host some events like some gatherings like oh like you know chat came out like obviously the most exciting thing of all time然后我们想办一场黑客松，所以我们办了一场黑客松，就是在黑客松上，“AI 工程师（AI engineer）”这个想法应运而生。
英文原文
>> and then we wanted to host some hackathon so we hosted a hackathon and at the hackathon that's where the idea for AI engineer came about也就是一种认知。实际上是一位女士走过来对我说：“我全力投入 AI，我是非技术人员，我能做什么？”我意识到，与工程师相比，简单的答案是她什么都做不了。工程师即将变得比非工程师强大得多，因为工程师可以同时控制 100 个 AI 并对其进行编程。
英文原文
>> which is the realization it actually was this uh woman that came up to me and said I'm I'm all in on AI I'm nontechnical what can I do and I realized that the simple answer is based compared to an engineer she can do nothing. Engineers are about to be so much more powerful than the non-engineer because engineers can control 100 AIS at once and program it而非技术人员能做的上限就是把 Prompt 写得更好。然后我心想，这我以前似乎见过。在我的整个职业生涯中，我见证了非声望角色的专业化。那么我说的“非声望”是什么意思呢？当一名 Prompt 工程师并没有什么声望。有声望的事情是你去训练大语言模型。你做预训练，你做后训练，你必须读个博士，你制作像 GRPO 这样花哨的算法，你知道，并且你做流形超连接（manifold hyperconnections）——这就是 DeepSeek 所做的。
英文原文
>> whereas the the maximum that a non technical person can do is prompt better. Then I was like oh like I think I have seen this before. So my my career throughout my career I've seen like professionalization of roles that are nonp prestigious. So what do I mean by nonp prestigious? It is not prestigious to be a prompt engineer. The prestigious thing is you train large language models. You do pre-training, you do post- training, you have to go through a PhD, you make fancy algorithms like GRPO, you know, and and you you do manifold hyperconnections, which is what Deep Seek does.那很有声望，并且继续保持着声望。但我认为人们的过度矫正表现为：看待除了那种机器学习研究之外的一切事物，都觉得毫无价值。事实证明这是不对的。你实际上确实需要构建 harness，而 harness 并不需要你懂高等数学，也不需要你在超算方面有丰富的经验，实际上你只需要成为一名非常优秀的软件工程师，思想足够开放，理解如何将 AI 融入到传统的软件代码中——也就是一个 harness。嗯……
英文原文
>> That's prestigious and that continues to be prestigious. But I think the overcorrection that people have is that looking at everything else that is not that ML research that is worthless. Uh that actually was untrue. You actually do want to build harnesses and harnesses do not require you to know advanced advanced math or have a lot of experience in supercomputing like actually you just need to be a very good software engineer that is open-minded enough to understand how to put AI into traditional software code which is a harness. M我们当时还没有 harness 这个词，但非常明确的是，工程师将能够做到普通人做不到的这类事情。
英文原文
>> we didn't have the word for harness at the time but it was very clear that engineers would be able to do things like this that normal people cannot而且他们会大受欢迎。不仅如此，企业正试图招聘这类人才，开发者也想成为这类人才，他们想要一个称呼自己的术语。所以你所要做的就是找出合适的术语，其中最简单的就是 AI 工程师，并把它打造成一个行业，打造成一门学科。所以这就是我……实际上我可以跟你分享一个在中国的插曲，就是当时当你刚才提到 Stable Diffusion 事件、Stable Diffusion 的开源时。实际上在那个时候，你知道现在中国最大的 AI 社区，叫做 WaytoAI，实际上也是由一群有抱负或热爱那些 Stable Diffusion 技术、想要转化为不同图像生成的人发起的，而且它成为了 ComfyUI 的基础。你肯定对那个 ComfyUI 很熟悉。
英文原文
>> and they would be in demands and there's not only that companies are trying to hire this kind of people and developers want to become this kind of people they want they want a term to call themselves um something and so all you have to do is figure out the right term which is the simplest one is AI engineer and make it a industry make it a discipline and so that's what I Actually I can share with you a side story in China is that at the time when you you just mentioned um the the event of stable diffusion the open source of stability fusion. It was actually at the time that you know right now the largest AI community in China which is called way to AI actually that was also started from a bunch of people who are uh ambitious or lovers of those stable diffusion technology and want to transform into different like images generation and also it become the foundation of the comfy UI. You definitely familiar with that comfy UI.是的。Comfy 创始人，我们邀请过他上播客。
英文原文
>> Yes. Confidence is we've had him on the podcast.对。对。对。在中国也是如此。然后所以……
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and in China as well. And then so他们使用 ComfyUI 吗？
英文原文
>> do they use company UI?是的。
英文原文
>> Yes.噢，哇。
英文原文
>> Oh wow.而且……而且后来他们逐渐邀请更多人来公开学习，并做出更多贡献在……
英文原文
>> And also and also then they like gradually invite more people to uh learn in public and contribute more contributions onAI 工程师的定位与社群兴起
在线文档……也就是在飞书（Lark）上，在 B……在 L 上。大家都在贡献自己的知识，分享关于 Stable Diffusion、ComfyUI 的使用案例，然后规模越来越大。我觉得现在这个在线社群大概有上百万用户在一起学习，好几百万用户在一起学习。所以这也成了中国最大的 AI 社群。我觉得这发生的时间，正好和你开始觉得需要为这类工程师起一个新词的时间完全一致，随后你就发表了关于“AI 工程师”（AI Engineer）的文章。
英文原文
online document which is on the Lark which is facial on the B which is on the L. So everybody contribute their knowledges share their use cases about uh stable division com UI and then become larger and larger. I think right now the online community has around a million users learning together and several million users like learning together. So become the largest AI community in China as well. So that's also I think that happened at exact exactly at the same time I think you you start to feel like you need a we need a new word for for this type of engineer and then as which is you just published the essay of um the AI engineer.对。我觉得大家……当时有几种替代叫法，我觉得通过人们当时尝试的那些替代词能最好地理解它。比如当时有“AI tinkerers”（AI 折腾者/修补匠），那是另一个很有影响力的社群。我很熟悉 Joe 和 Alex。
英文原文
Yeah. I think people so here are some of the alternatives. I think you you can best understand it by the alternatives that people were trying at the time. So there was AI tinkerers which is another significant community. I I know Joe and Alex uh well然后有人说“LLM engineers”（大语言模型工程师），或者“applied AI engineer”（应用 AI 工程师），或者所有这些其他的称呼。我觉得基本上你必须专注于人们希望拥有的职位头衔（job title）。我认为对我们来说，这一点非常关键。我觉得这是我从詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）那里学到的。是詹姆斯·克利尔写的《原子习惯》（Atomic Habits）吧？我想是的。我有点记不清作者关系了，但我想就是詹姆斯·克利尔。基本上，如果你想深入理解某个人或与某人建立连接，你不能在他们的工作层面上建立连接，
英文原文
>> and then there people were saying LLM engineers or applied AI engineer or all these all these other terminology. And I think basically you have to focus on the job title that people want to have. And I think that for us that was very key. And I think I picked this up from the James Clear. Is it James Clear that wrote Atomic Habits? I think so. Um I I forget I forget I forget the authorship relationship, but I think it's James Clear. Basically, if you want to deeply understand or connect with somebody, you have to connect with them not on the level of their job,也不能在他们的活动、爱好或随便什么事情的层面上建立连接，而是在他们的身份认同上——比如“你是谁”，
英文原文
>> not on the level of their activities or hobbies or whatever. It is their identity like who are you,对吧？
英文原文
>> right?你渴望成为什么样的人？如果你能为他们指明一条成为更好的自己的路径，你就能围绕这一点建立一个社群。很多非 AI 领域的人想进入 AI 领域，那么他们的路径是什么呢？你给他们一个能拿到薪水的职位头衔，这样他们就会对你产生忠诚度。
英文原文
>> Uh what what do you aspire to be? If you can give them the path towards being the better version of themselves, then you can build a community around that. Uh and so a lot of non AI people wanted to be an AI and what is the path for them? Um well you give them a job title that pays money like yes then they will be loyal to you.对，对，对。[笑] 没错。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Right.所以，是的，现在世界上有了多得多的 AI 工程师。
英文原文
>> So so yeah now there's a lot more AI engineers in the world.对。我也想出于自己的兴趣跟进一个问题。我知道作为一名 AI 工程师，有很多工作或者事情要做。我知道你提到过 Harness，AI 领域发生了许多发展。那你觉得“AI 工程师”这个角色的内涵是否也发生了演变，或者与你三年前开始这项工作时所提到的有所不同？
英文原文
>> Yeah. And to follow up just to my interest as well. So I know that there are just lot of works or um to do all right as a AI engineer. I know you mentioned harness a lot of developments happen in the AI. So do you think the role of the world AI engineer has been evolved as well or is different from what you just uh mentioned like three years ago once you started this work?说实话，其实并没有太大的改变。我认为 AI 工程领域内热门的方向变了，但这个职位头衔本身是非常准确的。
英文原文
>> Honestly it hasn't really changed that much. I think that what's hot within AI engineering has changed but the job title is pretty much correct.我觉得早期人们主要关注 RAG、上下文管理等等。而最近则是 coding agents、harness engineering、loop engineering 等等。
英文原文
>> I think there are people uh in the early days it used to be rag and managing context and all that. Um and and then more recently it's been coding agents, it's been harness engineering, it's been uh maybe loop engineering or whatever.还有关于记忆等各个分支。所以对 AI 工程所有领域感兴趣的人，在 AIE World's Fair——这是我们旗舰级的最大峰会——我们设置了 30 个不同的分会场，探讨什么是 AI 工程师。Eval 是其中的一部分，多模态也是其中的一部分，诸如此类。所以我认为它是随时间推移而演变的。我觉得“Agent 工程师”（Agent Engineer）可能是其中之一，或者“AI 架构师”（AI Architect）。AI 工程师就像是个人贡献者（IC）层面的角色，但在公司层面、全公司范围的主管是谁？“AI 架构师”似乎正在成为代表这类人的新兴称谓，由这个人来决定全公司每个人该如何应用 AI。对，那就是 AI 架构师。另外还有所有其他角色，比如 AI 设计师、AI 产品经理（AIPM）等等。所以，关键就在于谁来做具体工作，谁来写代码，谁来负责代码审查？如果出了问题，你负责吗？不负责的话，你就不是工程师。
英文原文
>> There's also other disciplines of memory and all these things. So for those who are interested in all the fields of AI engineering in AIE World's Fair, which is the the the flagship uh biggest conference, we have 30 different tracks of what it means to be an AI engineer. Um and eval is part of that, multimodal is part of it, you know, all that stuff. So I think it has shifted over time. Um I think agent engineer maybe is is one of them or AI architect you know so AI engineer is like the individual contributor version of this but who is like the company level companywide boss and uh AI architect is uh seems to be the emerging term for for that that person that decides this is how everybody in a company does AI. Yeah that's AI architect. So and then like there's there's all the all the other like AI designer AIPM all these things. So, uh, it's just like who does that work and who writes code and who is responsible for checking that code? If if something fails, are you responsible? No, you're not an engineer.你知道，如果一个人会在凌晨四点爬起来去修故障，那他才是工程师。
英文原文
>> You know, if the person who wakes up in like 4:00 a.m. in the morning to go fix it, that's the engineer.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.没错。所以我们希望为这些人服务。这才是最核心的。AI 领域的另一个问题是，充斥着很多只会高谈阔论的人，他们这辈子一天代码都没写过，但满口宏观大局。他们的职位非常非常高，总是说：“哦，我是某某公司的 CTO。”但他们根本不碰代码。
英文原文
>> Right. And so, we want to serve those people. And that's the real core of it. The other problem with AI is that there's a lot of There's a lot of talking heads who have never coded a single day in their lives, but they are very big picture. They're very, very senior. and they're like, "Oh, I'm CTO of blah blah blah." And but they have they don't touch code.很多 AI 大会和社群都聚焦在这些人身上，因为他们有着光鲜亮丽的头衔。但他们说出来的话听起来都一样。他们全都在说：“唔，我看实现 AGI 的时间表大概还有两年。你们未来都会没有工作。你们必须为下一步做好准备。”而巧合的是，所谓的“下一步”看起来正好就是他们的那份工作。所以这纯粹是为自身利益服务的。我认为 AI 工程师社群之所以能成功，原因之一就是我们努力把焦点放在通常得不到聚光灯关注的基层工程师身上，是他们切实做了这些工作，能够讲述所有的实战故事，并就他们所做的事与同行工程师交流。我从职业生涯中见过的其他大会借鉴了这个理念，比如 GDC、KubeCon、JSConf、PyCon 以及所有其他我发表演讲过的大会。在那些大会上，基本上都是工程师对工程师的交流，他们是技术栈的决策者，是创造和创新新事物的人；他们不一定是最有名的人，但在工程层面上绝对是非常扎实、绝对正确的。其他那些东西很多……[嗤笑]
英文原文
>> And so a lot of AI conferences and communities focus on those guys because they have big fancy titles. But then they all sound the same. They all like h my timeline into AGI is like 2 years away. You know, all of you are going to have not going to have jobs in the future. You need to prepare for what's next. Conveniently, whatever is next looks like their job. So it's very self- serving. And I think that that's one of the reasons that AI engineer works is that we try to focus on the lower level engineer that usually doesn't get the spotlight that actually did the work and is able to talk about all the war stories and share with their fellow engineers around what they're doing. And so I borrowed this idea from other parts other conferences I've seen in my career like GDC um and CubeCon and JSCON and Pyon and all these other conferences that I've spoken at where basically uh it is engineer to engineer and they are the decision makers for the tech stack and they are the people who create and innovate the new things and they're not necessarily the most famous person but they are definitely definitely correct when it comes to the engineering. Uh there's no right? And I think there's a lot of in the other things. [snorts]AI 峰会与行业交流
是的。对，这让人联想到你在大约三年前组织的第一届 AIE 峰会，而如今它已经发展成一个为期三天的完整峰会，今年有超过 7000 人参加。对于那些不太熟悉这个活动、以及 AI 工程师实际关心的各种内容、工作坊或主题的观众，你是如何把这样一个小型活动办成今年如此大规模的盛会的？AI Engineer World's Fair 基本上就像是其他行业早就拥有的那种行业旗舰级会议。比如，游戏行业有旧金山 30,000 人规模的 GDC；网络安全行业有两个，一个是 RSA，另一个是 Black Hat。如果你在网络安全领域，你就会去参加这些会议，
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah, you know, and then it comes to the the first AIE summit that you had organized in like 3 years ago and then now it's actually a 3-day full summit with over 7,000 um people joined this year just just for the audience who are not that familiar with what this event is and different kinds of contents that or workshops or the topics you actually AI engineer is caring about and then how did you actually bring this like small event to this such a big scale event this here. AI Worlds Fairfare is basically uh a similar industry flagship conference similar to the ones that every other industry already has. So, gaming has GDC, 30,000 people in San Francisco. Security has two, security has RSA, security has Black Hat. If you're in the cyber security field, you go to one of those things你就是在那里学习的。我真的很喜欢游戏行业的那种模式，因为游戏领域与大模型实验室非常相似。那里有 3A 工作室，他们制作世界上难度最高的游戏，
英文原文
>> and that's that's where you learn. I I really like the gaming one because gaming is very similar to labs. You have AAA studios. They work on the hardest games in the world.那是极致的工程实现，而且全都高度保密。他们平时不干别的，但每年会有一次来到 GDC，分享“我是如何做出年度最佳游戏的”。如果你想成为一名游戏开发者，想去 3A 游戏工作室工作，那是你唯一的学习途径。对。所以我认为现在的模型实验室很像游戏工作室。他们资金充裕，正在推进非常非常宏大的核心项目。有很多较小的公司正试图与他们竞争，但实验室才是核心关键。你希望能向实验室学习。可你去哪里向他们学习呢？他们举办的活动规模非常小，比如 OpenAI 推出 Developer Day，或者 Anthropic 推出 Code with Claude，但那些活动规模极小，选拔性极强，主要是面向客户的，并不是为了让工程师与其他工程师进行交流。此外还有大约 50 家非 OpenAI 或 Anthropic 的实验室，他们也有很多有趣的东西，对吧？所以每个行业通常都需要一个大型聚会，大家都来到这里，然后你就在场内走动，与所有人交谈，大家彼此交流。
英文原文
and it is extreme engineering and they're all top secret. They don't do anything else but one time a year they come to GDC and they will share like this is how I did game of the year and that's the only way if you're trying to be a game developer and you want to work at aa game studio this only way you learn. Yeah. So I think that now the model labs are similar to game studios. They have a lot of money. They're working on very very big major projects. There's a lot of smaller companies that are, you know, trying to compete with them. But the labs are the important ones. And you want to learn from the labs. And where are you going to learn from them? you know, they they do like very small conferences where they like they launch like developer day for OpenAI or code with cloud for anthropic, but those are super small and like very selective and mostly for customers and they're not for engineers talking to other engineers. And then there's like 50 other labs that are not openly anthropic that also they have something interesting, right? So they usually every industry needs one big like everyone comes here and then you just walk around the room and just talk to everybody and then they can talk to each other.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.这非常有趣，尤其是对于中国实验室来说，
英文原文
>> Which is very interesting because especially for Chinese labs其中有些还在实体清单上。
英文原文
>> some of whom are on the entity list.你们会讨论这方面的事吗？
英文原文
>> Is this something that you guys talk about?会的。
英文原文
>> Yes.他们不能正式与你开会。
英文原文
>> They cannot officially take meetings with you.很多美国公司不能正式与你开会。他们不被允许这样做，甚至不会回复你。这不是因为他们不想回复，不是因为他们……而是他们不被允许。但如果你们身处同一个地方，就会偶遇彼此，对吧？
英文原文
>> A lot of American companies cannot officially take meetings with you. They're not allowed. They don't even respond to you. It's not because they don't want to. It's not because they're They're not allowed. But if you're in the same location, you run into each other, right?我觉得
英文原文
>> And I think社区成果与全量内容沉淀
对我来说，创造机会让奇迹发生是挺有意思的事。比如有人找到了工作，有人找到了联合创始人。我促成的一对情侣开始约会，现在基本上已经结婚了。这确实是我的头号 KPI——我促成的婚姻和新生儿数量。
英文原文
that's that's kind of interesting as for me to create opportunities for for magic to happen. And it's like people get hired, people find a co-founder. I have one couple that started uh dating and now they, you know, they're they're basically married. And like uh yeah, that is my number one KPI. Number of marriages and babies that I've created.我真的很喜欢这一点。我认为我们能够打造出那种高质量的社区。我们今年的目标是 6,000 人，最终成功达到了 7,000 多人，另外还有 150 万人在线观看了我们的演讲。所以那些负担不起参会费用、不住在旧金山或不住在美国的人，依然可以观看我们的视频，跟上所有的内容。我们公开了每一场演讲、每一个工作坊。就像我说的，大概有 30 个不同的分论坛。分论坛太多了，无法一一列举，大家可以在官网上查看。但我基本上认为，自己一直在努力聚焦于切实可行、能赚到钱的内容，并且有清晰的榜样供你参考。比如如果你想学习这个领域，或者你是一家初创公司想做点东西，大概率已经有人在 EIE 上讨论过你想做的方向了。
英文原文
>> Uh and so so I I I really like that. I I think that uh we can create that kind of highquality community and you know we we're aiming for 6,000 people this year. We managed to hit 7,000 plus 1.5 million online watched our talks. So there people who cannot afford to come don't live in San Francisco, don't live in the US. They can still watch our videos and catch up on all the content. We publish every single talk, every single workshop. And like I said, it's like 30 different tracks. Um there's too many tracks to name but uh you can see on the website but I I basically think that I really try to focus on things that are working that you can make money there are clear role models for you like if you're trying to learn this field or you're a startup trying to build something there's somebody who has probably talked about your thing at EIE对。
英文原文
>> right这对任何想查阅资料的人来说都是非常宝贵的资源。另外我最近其实还做了一件事，没有特别大范围公开宣传过，就是我转录了所有内容并做了编目。所以你甚至都不需要去看演讲，直接把我们网站上的所有内容喂给大语言模型，它就能教你想学的任何东西。
英文原文
>> that becomes a very valuable resource for anyone looking up anything. So, another thing I've actually recently done that I haven't really been super public about is I transcribe everything and I catalog everything. So, you don't even have to watch the talks. You can just take all of our website and feed it into an LLM and then you can teach you whatever.噢，你其实是在做一个基于……的 CLI？
英文原文
>> Oh, are you actually creating a CLI based on一切都是 MCP。
英文原文
>> everything is is MCP.MCP。所有内容都已转录完成。如果你想拿它来训练自己的 LLM，它作为一个数据集是完全公开可用的，尽管去用吧。
英文原文
>> MCP um everything has been transcribed. Uh it's available as a data set if you want to train your LLM on it. Yeah, go ahead.已经发布了吗？
英文原文
>> Uh have you published yet or?发布了，就在 agineer/data 上。
英文原文
>> Yeah, it's uh it's on agineer/data.噢，太棒了。
英文原文
>> Oh, nice.上面展示了 MCP 以及可以下载的数据集。完全取决于你想如何消费这些内容。我们转录了所有音频，同时对每位演讲嘉宾和每个机构都做了深度调研。所以凡是在 AIE 演讲过的人，都会拥有一个个人档案，我们基本上是在尝试打造 AI 领域的维基百科。
英文原文
>> Which also yeah shows the shows the MCP and the data sets that you can download. It's just depends how you want to consume it. You know, we transcribed everything. We also deep research every speaker and every organization. So, whoever has ever spoken at AIE, you will you have a profile and we'll basically try to make the Wikipedia of AI.全球化拓展与合作模式
太棒了。关于 AI 还有一个最后的问题想跟进一下，你究竟是什么时候开始把 AIE 或这类大会带向全球不同市场的？我知道今年我们办了新加坡站，不过几年前巴黎应该是第一站吧？
英文原文
>> Nice. And just one last question to follow up the AI is that when did you actually bring the AIE or TI to global like different markets? I know. Yeah. Now this year we have Singapore but I think um few years ago Paris is the first one.巴黎是第一站。当时那趟旅程最后是怎样的？
英文原文
>> Paris is the first one. So how did how was their journey end?这基本上完全是沿用 JSConf 的模式。JSConf 是第一大 JS 大会。
英文原文
>> Mostly that is basically exactly following the JSCON model. JSCOM is the number one JS conference.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.这是一个非常简单的模式，对吧？我不可能跑遍世界上每一个国家，但世界上每个国家可能都想做点 AI。所以很显然，他们的国家理应拥有一场领先的大会。他们要么自己办一个，要么可以借用我们的品牌、YouTube 频道和社交媒体。
英文原文
>> And uh it's a very simple model right like I will never reach every country in the world but every n country in the world will probably want to do some AI. So obviously their country deserves to have a leading conference. They can either make their own or they can borrow our brand and our YouTube channel and our social media.所以我们基本上就是设立了一个合作计划，巴黎是第一个申请的。
英文原文
>> So basically we just set up a partnership program. Paris was the first to apply.好。
英文原文
>> Okay.一个非常有趣的现象是，AIE 巴黎站的主办方后来被收购进了 Mistral。
英文原文
>> Very fun fact the organizers of AIE Paris got acquired into Mist.噢。
英文原文
>> Oh.所以现在它由法国乃至欧洲领先的 AI 实验室来运营 AIE 巴黎站，这非常酷。我希望每个国家都能这样，比如有 AIE 印度、AIE 日本。我现在正与所有这些公司合作，这真的很棒。我永远不可能像他们那样了解当地，但他们是否配得上一场优质的大会？那是绝对的。然后他们就可以开展业务、招聘人才等等，对吧？世界非常大。所以我们沿用了这一模式。基本上其理念包含了三点：第一，你同意不滥用品牌名称，并且我们会达成某种收入分成协议；第二，公开你所做的一切内容；第三，要有一套行为准则，如果有人遭受虐待或不公对待，能有办法予以解决。我认为这主要是一个道德层面的要求，而非其他。我们这样做其实承担了很大风险，因为我们是在把品牌分享给我们并未共事过的人，要是他们办砸了一场 AIE 怎么办？
英文原文
>> So now now it's run by you know France and Europe's leading AI lab is runs AIE Paris which is very cool like I want that for every single you know country to like Yeah. You you have AIE India, you have AIE Japan. Yeah. So I'm working with all those those companies now and it's very cool like I will never know that region as much as them but like they of do they deserve a good conference? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then they can do business and and hire people and all that all that stuff, right? Yeah. The world is very big. So um we we follow that model. So basically it's the idea that you have there's there's three things, right? like one you agree to not abuse the brand name and like we you know um we'll have some sort of like uh revenue share thing two you're publishing everything that you're you're you're doing and then three you have a code of conduct where like if you know if um someone is uh being abused or mistreated there's some way of of of resolving that I think that's mostly an an ethical thing rather than anything else so we take a lot of risk by doing this because we're sharing our brand with people that we don't work with and so what if they throw a bad AIE.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.到目前为止还没发生过。［笑声］
英文原文
>> So far, it hasn't happened. [laughter]到目前为止。
英文原文
>> So far,是的，因为我觉得主要是我们在合作对象的选择上比较谨慎，而且无论如何，会被我们吸引过来的那批人本身都非常有热情，并且自发地对这些事情感兴趣。比如特别是新加坡，AIE 新加坡站。
英文原文
>> yeah, because I think like uh mostly we are we're careful about who we want to work with, but then also uh the the kind of people that are drawn to us anyway are pretty enthusiastic and organically interested in like yeah, especially for Singapore, AI Singapore. Yeah,首先，我自己是新加坡人，但这其实根本不重要。新加坡目前排第一的所谓 AI 大会，实际上是一个加密货币大会。
英文原文
>> first of all, I'm Singaporean, but that actually did not matter at all. The current top conference in Singapore that is an AI conference is actually a crypto conference结果变成……
英文原文
>> which turned out to be很多搞加密货币的人都想转型做 AI。没错，就是 SuperAI。我想他们也知道我不喜欢他们。
英文原文
>> a lot of crypto people want to be want to be AI and yes it is super AI and I think they know that I don't like them于是他们就觉得这对手里来说太尴尬了，你居然告诉我这就是我们国家最顶尖的大会，我们需要更好的东西。所以现在我认为 AIE 新加坡站已经位列前沿了，至少是有竞争力的，甚至可能比 SuperAI 更好。我为团队做出的成果感到非常自豪，而我完全没有参与任何组织工作。所以我认为让世界上每个国家都能拥有这样的大会非常重要，而我们能为此提供支持。
英文原文
>> and so like they're like this is embarrassing for my country you're telling me this is the number one thing in my country we need something better and so yeah now I think AI Singapore is is up there is at least competitive and maybe maybe better than super AI and uh I'm very proud of the team for doing that I and I didn't organize any of it. So I think that is the important thing for every country in the world to have it and we can support that.有趣的是，因为我看到你去了新加坡参加首届 AIE 活动，而且我跟 Lei 非常熟，我就问他：“嘿，AIE 第一次进军新加坡，你们什么时候去上海或者去中国？”然后他告诉我他正在和你合作。
英文原文
>> Funny thing is that because I saw you went to Singapore for the first first AI event and I cuz I knew Lei very well and I asked him that hey AI came to Singapore for the first time when when do you go to go to Shanghai or or China and then he told me that he is working with you.是的。中国的情况比较棘手，对吧？因为我不是……我是新加坡公民，我是华人，显然美中之间存在很多限制。所以这是最棘手的部分，也是为什么我需要 Lei 和他的团队真正挑起大梁、全权负责的原因。
英文原文
>> Yeah. So, China is the tricky one, right? Because I'm not a I'm Singaporean citizen. I'm a Chinese and obviously there's a lot of restrictions between the US and China. So, that is the main tricky part that which is why I needed Lei and his team to really own the whole thing.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.因为我甚至都无法在中国设立本地实体，对吧？
英文原文
>> Because I like I cannot even set up a local entity in China, right?这里有很多管制。我可不想惹麻烦，毕竟我的主要业务都在美国，对吧？我不能跟白宫闹出矛盾。但如果你们想共享这个品牌，把它当作自己的业务来运营，作为特许经营加盟之类的，那没问题。就我们而言，市面上有大量的特许经营加盟，我相当于麦当劳，你们就是麦当劳中国。
英文原文
>> There's a lot of controls. I don't want to get in trouble because my main business is US, right? So, I cannot get into trouble with the White House. But if you want to share the brand and run it as your own thing and it's a franchise, whatever. Okay. Like there's lots of franchises as far as we're concerned. I'm McDonald's and you're McDonald's China.是的，是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah.就像……好的。
英文原文
>> Like Okay.是的。［笑声］很高兴我们能把它引进来。
英文原文
>> Yeah. [laughter] Happy we can bring it.还有肯德基与肯德基中国，正是如此。
英文原文
>> There's KFC KFC China. Yes.太棒了。［笑声］
英文原文
>> Great. [laughter]SaaS 软件开销与替代思考
是的，非常棒的分享。我想下一个话题是关于你几周前分享的那个内容……关于“杀掉我的 SaaS”。
英文原文
>> Yeah. That that's great. Sherry and I guess next topic is something the contest you just share like few few weeks ago about the Q my sauce.好的。我很喜欢那期节目，因为……是的，跟我们讲讲幕后的故事吧，还有……
英文原文
>> Okay. the I really like that show because um yeah just tell us something about behind the curios and好的，我不知道你的听众里会有多少人关心这个。只有你自己开公司做生意，你才会关心。
英文原文
>> okay I'm wondering how many of your listeners will care about this okay you will only care if you own a business因为大多数开发者自己不做生意，他们可能没那么感兴趣；但如果你渴望有朝一日自己创业做生意，你最好还是关心一下。
英文原文
>> uh because most developers do not own businesses they're like not that interested but if you aspire to own a business someday you will be better care而且你知道，SaaS 在几年前是一个非常热门的话题，只是……
英文原文
>> and also you know um because you know SAS was a very hot topic like several years ago just噢是的，“SaaS 正在走向消亡”。
英文原文
>> oh yeah SAS is dying正在消亡，今年大家对此讨论得很多。
英文原文
>> and dying and you know been discussed a lot this year.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.所以我发现那期节目非常有意思，而且……
英文原文
>> And so uh I found out that this [clears throat] this show is very interesting and好的，让我先介绍一下整体的背景。
英文原文
>> okay let me introduce the the the overall context.好的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.我办一场大会的预算大概在 300 万到 1,000 万之间，取决于大会的规模。其中每场大会大概有 30 万左右是花在软件上的。我支付的这些……相当于占了我预算的 10%。这相当于是我原本可以拿回来的 10% 的利润空间。
英文原文
>> My budget for running a conference is somewhere between 3 to 10 million depending on the size of the conference. Uh roughly about 300k of that per conference is software. I'm paying like that's like 10% of my budget. That's like 10% of my margin that I could be拿回来的。而这些钱全给别人做的软件了，那些软件又烂、又慢、又难看，还完全不是我们想要的。所以你看，我单场要付 30 万，算下来一年可能要为这些 SaaS 软件支付 100 万。员工为了工作想用这个、想用那个，“好的、好的、好的、好的”。作为老板，员工来找我说想用某个工具，说这对工作很重要，我当然会答应。
英文原文
>> getting back. that is to just somebody else's software that is shitty, slow, uh ugly, not exactly what we want. And you know, so I'm paying 300,000 maybe calling paying 1 million a year in just like SAS like like you want this, you want that to do your work. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Like as the boss like my employee comes to me and wants to use this thing, they say it's important for their work. Yeah, I'm going to say yes.但当所有这些加在一起时，那可是一大笔钱。然后等我用起来、他们用起来的时候，大家就觉得“好吧，它并不……”
英文原文
>> But like when it all adds up, like it's a lot of money. And then like and then I use it and they use it. They're like yeah it doesn't给我们要的东西。
它就是很慢，比如他们要求——比如作为 SaaS 的客户，发生的事情就是你在排队等支持，对吧？你想要这个功能，他们就会说“好的——
英文原文
give me what we want. Like it has it's slow like they request like as a customer of a SAS what happens is you are in a queue for support right you want this feature and they're like okay从现在起 6 个月后，你知道的，我们会做，我们会把你排进第三季度的路线图。你对我们非常重要。”
英文原文
>> 6 months from now you know we'll do we'll put you on the Q3 road map. You are very important to us用 Coding Agent 克隆 SaaS 软件
比如，你知道我们是一家 AI 大会公司，现在是 2026 年，已经有 coding agent 了，对吧？比如我们完全可以自己做。所以，这个想法就是，我把原本我员工提议要付 40,000 美元的 SaaS，我说，我出 10,000 美元请人把这整套东西克隆出来。它是开源的，而且完全符合我们的需求。从这里开始，我们可以用任何 coding agent，Codex、Claude Code、Devin，去直接定制它，不管怎样。对吧？我们做到了。我们公布了这个竞赛，收到了 69 份提交。当你办这样一个竞赛时，你提供免费的资金，我提议报销每个人的 coding agent 订阅费，对吧？所以你会有很多糟糕的提交，我直接觉得这显然不行，我没有为那些付钱。但是我们有 69 个不错的，大部分都是基本可用的，大约有 5 个我认为是我们愿意付钱的，就是很好，一周之内就做完了。
英文原文
>> like it's you know we are an AI conference company and this is 2026 and there's coding agents right like we can do this. So, uh, the idea was I took a $40,000 SAS that my employee was proposing to pay and I said, I will pay somebody $10,000 to clone this whole thing. It's open source and it's exactly what we want. And from here, we can use whatever coding agent, Codex, Cloud, Coding, uh, Devon to just customize it, whatever. Right? And we did it. We, you know, announced the competition. We had 69 submissions. When you have a competition like that, you offer free money. Uh I I've offered to cover everybody's coding agent subscription, right? So you have a lot of bad submissions and so I just like this is obviously stop like I didn't I didn't give money for that. But um we had 69 good ones and most of them were like usable about five I would say that we would pay for like it was just like good like it was done in one week.是的。是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah.作为一个 SaaS 企业的经营者，你可能只有 50 个客户，全部每年付你 40k。想象一下如果他们全都意识到这点，直接流失掉。
英文原文
>> As a owner of a SAS business you have maybe like 50 customers all them paying you 40k. Imagine if all of them realized this and they just they just turn away.他们在一年内就全部流失了。你的业务就没了。你从一年赚 2000 万美元直接变成了零。
英文原文
>> They just they just turn away in one year. Your your business is gone. You went from earning $20 million a year to nothing.一无所有。是的。
英文原文
>> Nothing. Yeah.是的。我觉得这非常可怕，对于企业主来说。而且我认为这就是经营 SaaS 的棘手之处，对吧？比如我拥有的是实体业务，所以短期内不会消失。机器人很酷，但它们还没有在组织大会。但做软件 B2B 的人，拥有这种中端 SaaS 的人——Salesforce 没问题，没人替 Salesforce 担心，但是中端 SaaS，很多中小型企业——你们管它叫 SMB 吗？
英文原文
>> Yeah. That's uh it's very scary, I think, uh for a for a business owner. And I think that's the tricky thing of of owning a SAS, right? Like like I own a physical business, so that's not going away anytime soon. Robots are cool, but they're not they're not organizing conference. But like people who do software B2B who own this like mid-tier SAS Salesforce is fine like nobody's worried about Salesforce but like the mid-tier SAS where like you know a lot of small mid SMB do you guys call SMBSMB，他们真的会苦苦挣扎，或者他们必须转型做更好的东西，我认为他们真的最好现在就想清楚，因为我们所有作为他们客户的企业主，现在也都能写代码了 [笑声]
英文原文
>> SMBs they're going to really struggle uh or they are going to pivot to something that's better and I think they they really better figure it out now because all of us business owners who are their customers we also can code [laughter]而且现在针对他们自己软件的实际竞争对手出现并不需要那么长时间。
英文原文
>> and it doesn't take that long time actual competitors to to their own software right now.顺便说一下，模型非常擅长点击你软件的每一个屏幕，然后独立地把它复制出来。哦对。对吧。所以只要我能访问你的软件，我就能克隆它。那就祝你好运了。
英文原文
>> And by the way, the models are very good at clicking through every screen of your software and then replicating it in independently. Oh yeah. Right. So the moment I have access to your software, I can clone it. So good luck.嗯，所以我认为这就是现实。我想说如果你是一个 SaaS 老板，没人知道正确答案。我认为你基本上最终得转型成为一个 agent 构建者。所以你必须变成类似美国的 Harvey 或 OpenEvidence。是的，是的。你拥有一个垂直领域，并且你是那个垂直领域里顶级的 agent——
英文原文
>> Um and so I think that is the the reality. I would say that if you're a SAS owner, nobody knows that the right answer. I think that you basically end up having to pivot to being an agent builder. So you have to become like the US equivalent. It's like Harvey or um open evidence or Yeah. Yeah. You you own a vertical and you're the top agent in that vertical要么你拥有某些专门的数据，基本成为一个数据供应商。介于两者之间的任何东西，别人都会自己去写代码搞一套出来。
英文原文
>> or you own some specialized data and you're basically a data vendor. Anything in between, someone else is going to just code their own thing.是的，可能吧。我能追问一个问题吗，因为你刚才已经回答了我的第一个问题？是的。你刚才已经给那些……给出了建议。
英文原文
>> Yeah, probably. Can I follow a question because you already answer my first question? Yes. you already give some advice to those those中小企业主的杠杆与自研软件的维护
我更感兴趣的是——我其实并不太同情那些 SaaS 老板，对吧，SaaS 老板他们是成年人了，他们能自己想明白。实际上我更热衷于给企业主提建议——
英文原文
>> I'm more interested like so I'm not I'm not so sympathetic to the the SAS owners right SAS owners they they're big big boys they can figure it out uh actually I'm more I'm more keen on advising the business owners一个企业主。
英文原文
>> a business owner是的，我经营一家小企业，我是 SMB。
英文原文
>> yeah I I run a small business I'm SMB有成千上万像我这样的人，他们都在努力只是——你知道，我本本分分谋生，我给员工发工资，我纳税，这是很好的生活——
英文原文
>> there's a million people like me they're all trying to just I I you know I make an honest living I pay employees I pay my taxes and it's a good life如果你违……还可以更好 [笑声]
英文原文
>> it can be better if you viol [laughter]而且我的客户很满意。我的员工很满意。我也很开心。这是一个很酷的故事。是的，你知道，我认为中小企业迎来了我们的黄金时代。如果你在现实世界做任何事情，你只是想做好自己的工作，而你和你期望的结果之间隔着很多烂软件，你突然之间就可以缩短——
英文原文
>> and like my customers are happy. My employees are happy. I'm happy. It's a cool story to tell. Uh yeah, you know, SMB is I think is a golden age for us. If you do anything in the real world that is you're just trying to do your job and there's a lot of shitty software between you and your your your intended outcome, you can suddenly shorten买你的云服务，并且——
英文原文
>> buy your cloud and是的。是的。是的。我的意思是，你知道，价值 40,000 美元的云算力是很大一笔算力了。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, $40,000 worth of cloud is a lot of cloud.是的。很大一笔云服务。我可以花 10,000，然后有大把的钱随心所欲做任何想做的事。
英文原文
>> Yeah. It's a lot of cloud. I can spend 10,000 and like have a lot of money to like do whatever I want.是的。
英文原文
>> Yes.所以我认为这就是为什么我把它称为企业主的问题，而不是开发者的问题。开发者的问题会说“哦，200 美元好贵”。
英文原文
>> Uh so I think uh uh that's why I I I call this is a business owner problem not a developer problem. Developer problems say like oh $200 is a lot你懂的，比如我是一个企业主。我理解让我的 10 名员工良好协同工作的生产力收益。比如这 10 名员工，我给他们发 150 万工资，对吧？如果他们协同得好 10%，那潜在就是 15 万；实际上不仅是好 10%，而是好上 5 倍——
英文原文
>> you know like like I'm a business owner. I understand the productivity benefits of having 10 of my employees work together well. Like 10 of my employees I'm paying 1.5 million for them. Right? Like if if they work together 10% better that's 150k the potentially it's not it's not 10% better it's like five times better对，那就是相当于 750 万，太棒了，而这全是代表我执行的 agent 工作，人们过去常常会说“好吧，我下周带方案回来”，不，我今天下午就要。
英文原文
>> right that's like 7.5 million great and that is all the agent work that is being done on on my behalf that people used to uh say like well okay I'll you know I'll come back next week with a proposal no I want it this afternoon我的感觉是，一旦你自己做了这么多软件，维护工作会不会变得……你知道，很困难或者……
英文原文
>> my phil is that once you created so many softares yourself would that the maintainance uh the work will something you know difficult or是的，这是真实存在的，对吧，它不是零成本——
英文原文
>> yeah it's it's real right it's not zero你得去用它，比如——
英文原文
>> you have to use it like不是零，但我们有 coding agent。
英文原文
>> it's not zero but like we have coding agents哦对，维护，自我维护。
英文原文
>> oh yeah maintain self self-maintaining是的，而且其中很大一部分——这也是为什么我说中端 SaaS，你不是 Salesforce，你不是 Google，你不是 AWS，你不是那种关键任务要求 99.999% 可用性的东西，对吧？你就是一个数据库，人们在里面敲入内容，然后得到产出，是的 [笑声]。所以，就算它宕机一天，无所谓，而且你可以在一天之内修好它。
英文原文
>> yeah and a lot of it is this is why I say like mid-tier SAS you're not Salesforce you're not Google you're not AWS you're not this like missionritical 99.999 uptime thing right you are just like a database where people type in their thing and they get that something out yes [laughter] So like yeah okay it goes down for a day like whatever and you can fix it in a day而且现在有很多 coding agent，我认为我宁愿接受这种宕机时间，来换取我可以定制、我可以定制任何东西，这太棒了，你知道。这样我的团队就高效得多。实际上我在那期节目里提到了这一点，在“干掉我的 SaaS”里，最喜欢的功能之一：比方说我有……例如下个月我的下一个大会 AIE Code——
英文原文
>> and there's a lot of coding agents where like I think I I would argue I would take that downtime for in exchange for like I can customize I can customize anything that's amazing you know and and so my team is so much more productive you know uh I actually put this in the episode in kill my sass one of the favorite features let's say I have uh so for example for AIE code my my next conference next month我有 1000 份申请，而我只有 25 个名额。好的，我得在 1000 个人里选出 25 个。而在我们目前用来处理这部分的那个 SaaS 里，我们必须一个一个一个一个地点。每个屏幕点、点、点、点、点、点、点。所以在“干掉我的 SaaS”竞赛中，我们的一位参赛者直接把一切都改了，让你可以在一个表格里重新排序。这种视图在那个 SaaS 里根本不存在。好的。
英文原文
>> I I have 1,000 submissions and I have 25 seats. Okay, I have to go to 1,000 people to get 25. And in the current SAS that we use for that piece of software, we have to click one by one by one by one by one. Every screen click click click click click click click. And so in the kill my SAS competition, one of our contestants just changed everything so that you can sort of reorder in one table. This view doesn't exist in that SAS. Okay.要想得到这个视图，我们得提 6 个月请求——
英文原文
>> To in order to get this view, we have to request for 6 months但是——
英文原文
>> but而他们就是克隆出来。想要什么就直接提需求——
英文原文
>> and they're just cloning. just request whatever you want然后就像，啊，现在我可以做了，我一眼就能看全所有东西。
英文原文
>> and like ah now I can do I can see all everything in one go.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.好的。[笑声]
英文原文
>> Okay. [laughter]太快了。
英文原文
>> That's so quick.所以我……对于听众来说，你知道如果你觉得这是一个愚蠢的例子，它确实是，我是为了音频做了简化。
英文原文
>> So I I am uh for listener you know if you're thinking that this is a stupid example it is uh I'm simplifying for audio.我发现第一名的获胜者是一个能够管理所有演讲者阵容的人，那是一个——
英文原文
>> I mean I find out that the top one uh winner is someone who can manage all the speakers lineups and that that's a而且它的用户体验很好。他们是从人类的角度来进行测试的——
英文原文
>> and it's good UX. they are testing it from the point point of view of humans我认为普通作品和顶级作品之间存在很大差距。所以，在今天的 2026 年确实如此，如果你是一个企业主，然后你决定雇一个看起来稍微懂点技术的年轻人，说“嘿，帮我写个测试”，也许他们做得并不好，因为他们没有受过任何培训。但只要给他们一年时间。多看一些 AI 视频——
英文原文
>> and I think that there is a lot of difference between the average submission and the top submission. So, uh, that is true that today in 2026, if you're a business owner and you decide to hire the youngest kid with like, you know, that looks vaguely technical to, hey, if I quote this test for me, please, maybe they're not going to do so well because they don't have any training. But just give it one year. Watch a lot of AI videos然后你就能领悟它。
英文原文
>> and then you'll pick on it.这需要技能水平，对吧？很多都是粗制滥造的东西，而你不想用粗劣产物，对吧？你的员工配得上更好的。你配得上更好的。实际上有时候从久经考验的 SaaS 那里购买确实会更好。这当然会更好。
英文原文
>> There's a skill level, right? Like a a lot of it is slob and you don't want to use slop, right? Your your employees deserve better. You deserve better. And actually sometimes buying from a tried and tested SAS is going to be better. It is going to be better of course.但对我们来说，作为一家公司，我们希望走在 AI 前沿。我们要更具前沿性。
英文原文
>> But for us uh we want to be AI forward as a company. We will be more cutting edge.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.还有最后一件事想跟进，因为你刚才在播客里提到过，你们有 AI 裁判，而实际上 AI 裁判评出的结果与你们团队挑选出的获胜者有很大不同。
英文原文
>> And one last thing to follow up because like uh you just said it in the podcast that uh you have AI judge and actually judges uh the judge of the AI was quite different from the the winners that you picked by your team.哇。你真的
英文原文
>> Wow. You really听过那期播客。
英文原文
listen to the podcast.对啊。因为我对整个过程都很感兴趣。所以我就是好奇为什么……为什么……
英文原文
>> Oh yeah. because I'm interested about the whole process. So I just wonder why why哦，对。所以那一部分是有意的，一部分也并不是评委的目标。评委单纯就是看你是否提交了一份有效的作品，对吧？你是否合格？
英文原文
>> Oh yeah. So that was uh partially on purpose and partially not the goal of the judge. The judge was purely did you submit a valid submission, right? Did you qualify?嗯嗯。
英文原文
>> Uhhuh.但评委的目标并不是在全场之中选出最好的一个。
英文原文
>> But the judge was not aimed for is this the best among the whole court.噢，好的。
英文原文
>> Oh, okay.对。显然这两者是有区别的。
英文原文
>> Right. Obviously there's a difference.好的。所以……
英文原文
>> Okay. So,所以这是为了你自己的目的，或者是为了你们团队比如会议的目的，去挑选哪个更有用，而不是单纯……
英文原文
>> so it's for your your purpose or your team's like conference purpose to pick which is more useful rather than just因为我们自己都不知道自己想要什么。所以，我没法为一个我都不知道自己想要什么的东西去弄一个 AI 评委。
英文原文
>> because we didn't know what we wanted. So, I cannot make an AI judge for for things that I don't know what I want.但只要我看到……
英文原文
>> But once I see70 个不同的样本……
英文原文
>> 70 different examples然后你显然就会奔着那个……
英文原文
>> and then you're going to obviously the one that is众包设计与 99designs 模式
顺便说个趣事，Latent Space 的 logo——如果你看到在这个房间里、外面这里给这个播客用的 logo 的话。
英文原文
>> and by the way fun fact the Len Space logo if you you see the logo for this podcast in this room outside the here.好的。那是通过一个叫 99designs 的网站做的，非常有意思。你熟悉这个吗？
英文原文
>> Okay. That was through a a website called 99 designs which is uh very interesting. Are you familiar with this?不熟悉。
英文原文
>> No.好的。当你想要一个新 logo，或者想要任何设计时，随便你怎么选，比如你可能有……也许你会问你的朋友：“嘿，谁擅长做设计？”他们给你三个名字，你从中选一个名字，然后他们给你一个 logo，就这样了。
英文原文
>> Okay. When you want a new logo or you want any design whatever you pick from like you have maybe you ask your friend for like hey who's who's good at design and they give you three names and you pick one of the three names and then they give you a logo and that's it.对。99designs 是你发起一场比赛，我拿到了 400 个不同的创意……
英文原文
>> Yeah. 99 designs. You put up a contest and I got 400 different ideas用来选 logo，然后我把奖金颁发给最终选中的那个 logo，它是一个非常棒的 logo。
英文原文
>> for a logo and then I award the prize to the the logo that we got which is it's a very good logo.这样要好得多，对吧？你想要多样性和点子。
英文原文
>> It's so much better, right? You want diversity and ideas.所以其实办比赛这种想法……
英文原文
>> So actually this idea of like do contests并且……
英文原文
>> and我能这么做是因为我是个网红/影响力人物；大多数人做不了，因为他们没有受众。
英文原文
>> which I can do because I'm an influencer most people cannot do because they don't have the audience.好。但我认为确实存在这样一种模式。99designs 是一个非常好的商业模式，因为有许多设计师。其实做一份设计并不需要花那么多功夫，对吧？你只需要……这更多关乎点子的质量，而不是工作量。所以你只需要高质量的点子，而且你只需要能够把这些点子广撒网投到很多不同的比赛中去。
英文原文
>> Okay. But I think that there is such a thing. 99 designs is a very good business because there's many designers. It actually doesn't take that much to create a design, right? You just need it's more about the quality of the idea than the amount of work. So you just need high quality ideas and it and like you just need to be able to to spray it over to a lot of different contests.构建面向一人公司的自有 SaaS
所以 99designs 就是这样的。而且我认为可以有很多针对 SaaS 的 99designs，这也是我正在思考的事情。你懂我的意思吗？基本上，我不得不为自己办一个 99designs，说：“这是一个 40,000 美元的 SaaS。这是规格说明。这是评审标准。这是等等等等。”甚至具体到：“这是你获胜时我们付你钱的方式。”所有事情都得由我来敲定。但是，我是否愿意付钱给另一个人替我做完这一切，以便我只要告诉他们我想要什么，就能得到 70 个不同的版本并挑选一个？
英文原文
>> And so 99 designs is like that. And I think there could be a lot of 99 designs for SAS, which is something I'm thinking about. You know what I mean? Basically, I had to create a 99 designs for myself for saying, "Here's the $40,000 SAS. Here's the specs. Here's the judging criteria. Here's the blah blah blah." Even right down to like, "Here's how we pay you money when you win." Everything had to be worked out by me. But would I pay some other person to do all this for me so that I just tell them what I want and I get 70 different versions and I pick one?哦，愿意啊。
英文原文
>> Oh, yeah.对我来说这都是行政杂务，对吧？是的。
英文原文
>> This is all the admin for me, right? Yeah.所以，应该有一个针对 SaaS、针对克隆所有这些东西的 99designs。因为再次声明，作为企业主，老实说我做这件事纯粹是因为这是好内容。这是一档播客。你对所有这些事情都很感兴趣。
英文原文
>> So, there should be a 99 designs for uh for SAS and for cloning all these things because as again as a business owner I honestly I'm only doing this because it's good content. It's a podcast. You're interested in all these things.但要是如果我没有播客，我大概就不会去做这件事了。[笑声]
英文原文
>> But like if I didn't have a podcast, I probably wouldn't do it. [laughter]这工作量太大了。
英文原文
>> It's a lot of work.我们花了大概 2 个月的时间来评估所有东西。部分原因是因为我很忙，但也是因为这确实需要大量的评估，比如这个特定的 SaaS 就有五个角色……
英文原文
>> We took like 2 months to eval everything. partially because I'm busy but uh also it's just it's a lot of eval like uh just there's five roles for this particular SAS因为它涉及组织者、演讲者、与会者、赞助商、供应商……
英文原文
>> because it's about like organizer speaker attendee sponsor vendor他们都必须在会议组织流程的形式上达成一致。
英文原文
>> they all have to agree on what the conference organization looks like.对。所以你必须为每个……为了测试，你必须为每个角色创建账号，你得在这里输入一些数据，然后切换账号，你做一些……然后你查看并在这里输入数据，你切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换、切换，所以它才这么复杂，这也是为什么……但这就是中层 SaaS 的价值所在，这也是为什么我为此付 40,000 美元，因为我不想亲自做这个。
英文原文
>> Yeah. So you have to create an account for each of the in order to test you have to create account for each of things and you have to do some data entry here and you change accounts you do some and you read and data entry here you change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change change and so that's why it's like complicated that's why that's but that's what the mid tier says is that's why I pay $40,000 for this cuz I don't want to do it不过现在你可以……做这个是一项非常有趣的工作和难题。
英文原文
>> but uh now that you can it's very fun job and problem to do是的，确实。是的，我是说这是一个很好的实验，而且因为我们也在中国办会议，之前也有超过千人的参会规模。所以我非常能引起共鸣……
英文原文
>> yeah sure yeah I mean it's a good experiment and because we are also running conference in China as well like also over thousand uh attendance before. So I can echo you so much about不过再想想其余的，对吧。所以，我过去经常付费买 Calendly。你们有 Calendly 吗？
英文原文
>> but then like think about the rest right. So uh I used to pay uh kalani. Do you guys have kalanly?我没有，不过……
英文原文
>> I don't but但你懂我的意思，比如预约链接，我们就是通过那种方式约上这次见面的。是的。Calendly 是一个规模达 130 亿美元左右的业务。
英文原文
>> but you know what I mean like like a booking link like that's how we that's how we got to this meeting. Yeah. Calendarly is like a $13 billion business.是的，你可以……Calendly。
英文原文
>> And yes you can vote Calendarly.是的，我知道。
英文原文
>> Yes I know.我当然有……我有我自己的……我有……我有两个版本。
英文原文
>> Of course I have I have my own I have I have two versions.你……你已经……制作了你自己的……
英文原文
>> You you already your uh like make your own日历。我……我有我自己的 Calendly。我有我自己的 Google Drive。我有我自己的 GitHub。我是认真的。我有我自己的 Dropbox。
英文原文
>> calendar. I I have my own calendarly. I have my own Google Drive. I have my own GitHub. I'm serious. I have my own Dropbox.我的天。
英文原文
>> My gosh.我有我自己的 Slack。所有这些都是因为我有钱，而且我能……我有人手，我可以……我可以指派他们去做事情。但我确实认为，你可以为自己、为了一个人的受众或者一家公司的受众来构建软件……
英文原文
>> I have my own Slack. All of this is because I have money and I can I have people and I can I can assign them to do things. But I do think that you can build software for yourself for audience of one or audience of one company这完全没问题。而且现在你可以做到这一点这一事实，对于任何企业主来说都是前所未有的。
英文原文
>> and that's okay. And that the fact that you can do that now is something that has never existed before for any business owner.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.这是很令人惊叹的。
英文原文
>> Which is amazing.是的。是的。是的。对。太棒了。太棒了。太棒了。是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Great. Great. Great. Yeah.开源替代品与软件护城河
是的。好的。你做过一些投资，对吧？而且你……你已经……你融过资。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Okay. You do some investing, right? And you're you're you've you've raised money.嗯嗯。
英文原文
>> Uhhuh.所以，你知道 DocuSign。
英文原文
>> So, you know, Docu Sign.知道。
英文原文
>> Yes.100 亿美元市值的公司。
英文原文
>> $10 billion company.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.或者现在可能是 70 亿。
英文原文
>> Or maybe seven now.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.DocuSign 是什么呢？你……你发一份 PDF。他们说：“哦，好的。签好了。”他们给你一份证书。噢。
英文原文
>> Uh what is Docu Sign? You you send a PDF. They say like, "Oh, yeah. Signed." They give you a certificate. Oo.就这样。对。是的。他们发……他们收你类似每个 perfature 10 美元……或者每个信封收你费用。他们是这么叫的，你知道的。
英文原文
>> That's it. Yeah. Right. And they they send they charge you something like $10 per perfature or something for envelope. They call it, you know,然后……是的。我……有一个开源的 DocuSign，我自己部署托管了它。你知道有什么区别吗？因为我有自己的 Drive，也有自己的 DocuSign，在 DocuSign 签署完成的那一刻，它就直接归入 Drive 对应的文件夹里了。
英文原文
>> and like Yeah. I there's an open source docu sign and I hosted it for myself and you know what's the difference like because I have my own drive and I have my own docu sign the moment that the docy sign is signed it goes straight into the correct folder on the drive哦对，因为你把它集成在一起了。
英文原文
>> oh yeah because you integrate together没错，而这在 DocuSign 里是没有的。
英文原文
>> yes and that does not exist in the docyign对，对，是的。
英文原文
>> right right yes对，所以比如我的数据库/资料库（data room）就直接拥有签署好的文件，或者所有的东西我都不需要动手，因为它已经具备了……
英文原文
>> right so like my data room has directly the doc signs or everything that I didn't have to touch cuz it already has对。
英文原文
>> right所有东西。我……DocuSign 唯一特别的一点就是被创造……因为它是很久以前建立的，它创造了网络效应。每个人都加入这个网络，每个人都在用它。你依然认为这是这类软件的护城河吗？
英文原文
>> everything my one thing special about docu sign is created like because it was built long time ago and it creates a network effect. Everyone joins the network, everyone using it. Are you still thinking it's a mode for this kind of software?不。
英文原文
>> no.不，不是。电子签名在任何地方都是具有法律效力的……
英文原文
>> No, no. Electronic signatures are legally enforceable everywhere而且 DocuSign 对此没有专利。我能做……我能做我自己的电子签名。那个所谓的网络，其载体就是电子邮件地址。
英文原文
>> and is docuign has no patent on it. I can do I can do my electronic signature. What the the network is the email address.这……这太愚蠢了。而且我还可以继续讲我为什么做这些东西中的每一个。这不重要。这并不是说我在鼓励每个人都去这么做。我认为无论你在业务或生活中面对什么问题，你真的都能找到它的开源版本。自己托管。自己定制。
英文原文
>> Is it like it it is so stupid and like I can keep going about why I made each of each of those things. It doesn't matter. It's not like I'm encouraging everyone to do this. I think that whatever problem you face in your business or your life, you really can find open source version of it. Host it for yourself. Customize it.集成。好，我要这个加上这个。搞定。它们就能直接协同工作，因为我一直在用它们。我在这里复制，粘贴到那里；在这里复制，粘贴到那里。在每一百万次复制粘贴的场景里，我认为都有一个绝佳的初创公司和产品值得被打造出来。
英文原文
>> Integrate. Okay, I want this plus this. Boom. They just work cuz I use them all the time. I copy here, paste there, copy here, paste there. Inside of every 1 million copy paste, I think there is a fantastic startup and product to be built.关于 Jeff 与 Diego 的讨论
太棒了。然后我想下一个问题或者下一期节目，我对你和来自 Jeff 的 Diego 的对话其实非常感兴趣，因为那实际上也是一个被非常热烈讨论的话题和产品。
英文原文
>> Great. And uh I guess next question or next show I'm actually quite interesting about your conversation with Dieago from Jeff cuz also it was actually a really also a very hotly discussed topic and product.是的。中国开发者对它有什么看法？
英文原文
>> Yeah. What what is the Chinese developers thinking about it?我觉得它就是……你知道，嗯，就是开创了一种完全不同角度来思考使用大语言模型（LLM）的新方式。是的。然后我甚至听说，你知道，中国有一位播客主，她完全不懂任何代码，但她……她用 Jeff 来判断……你知道，他们播客的切片会不会走红，然后 Jeff 给出……你知道，给出答案，然后他就发布在……
英文原文
>> I think it just you know um just you know creates a new way of thinking about using like LMS from a totally different angle. Yes. And then I even heard that you know one podcast podcaster from China she didn't know anything about coding but she she used Jeff to judge you know the clips from their podcast whether it would go viral and then Jeff gives you know gives the answer and and then he will post it on在网络上。所以我发现了很多基于 Jeff 的极佳用例。所以我只是想知道你对那里的看法是什么，以及可能……
英文原文
>> on the network. So I found so many great use cases based on Jeff. So I just wonder what's your take with with there and what probably对，所以……对于那些没听过那期播客的人来说，我们是第一个采访他的播客，第一个，因为我……我逼他的，因为我和他认识 4 年了，我说“如果你不……如果你不把首发给我，我就杀了你”。
英文原文
>> yeah so uh for the those who didn't listen to the podcast we were the first podcast with him the first one because I I forced him because I have friends with him for 4 years and say if you don't if you don't give me the first I'm going to kill you[笑声]
不，他，他显然非常，非常有所成就。他是 InstructGPT 的合著者，而 InstructGPT 后来演变成了 ChatGPT。
英文原文
[laughter]no he's he's he's obviously like very
very accomplished he was the co-author
on on uh the instruct GPT which became
chat GPT
而且我认为关于 Jeff 有趣的一点是，对我来说，这算是一种最初对 AI 工程的愿景。也就是说，现在的 AI 工程不再是我们之前讨论的那种围绕模型做的一个巨大的线束，
英文原文
>> and I think the interesting thing aboutJeff is that it is kind of the original
vision of AI engineering for me which is
that instead of right now AI engineering
is is what we talked about is a big
harness
围绕模型，
英文原文
>> around a model然后就像是：我会做一堆工作，然后交接给模型，说“求求了，上帝模型，给我正确答案吧”，然后你可以花 10 天去思考。Jev 的态度则是：“不，模型是为我们服务的，我们不是为模型打工的。”
英文原文
>> and it's like I'll do a bunch of workand then I'll hand off to a model and
say please god model give me the right
answer and then you can take 10 days to
think about it Jev is like well no
models are for us we don't work for the
model
对。
英文原文
>> right所以我会把模型的范围缩小到只做一件事，那就是做出选择或者估计概率，并且我会把它放在我关键工作的必经路径上。所以如果你想想当前的 LLM 范式的失效模式是什么，那就是你有一个庞大的传统 SaaS，然后你的 LLM 就是一个聊天机器人的窗口。
英文原文
>> and so I will reduce the scope of themodel to only one thing which is to make
choices or to estimate probabilities and
I will I will put it in the line of path
of my critical work. So if you think
about what is the failure mode of of
what the LM current LM paradigm is is
that you have the big traditional SAS
and then your LM is this window that is
a chatbot.
嗯。
英文原文
>> Mhm.对吧。基本上所有东西都是这样，或者你看像 Codex、ChatGPT 或 Claude，就像是这里一个聊天窗口，这里一个菜单，仅此而已。
英文原文
>> Right. That is basically what everythingis or you are you look like codeex or
chatbt or cloud and it's like chat
window here menu here that's it
对于 Jeff 所代表的以及系统 1 模型所代表的——这就是为什么他不称其为决策模型，而是称之为系统 1 模型——
英文原文
>> for what Jeff represents and what systemone models represent this is why he
doesn't call it decision model he calls
it system one models
它是处于代码路径之中的。你在常规编程语言中写它，就像写一个 if 语句一样随意。我认为这正是他所说的更智能的软件的真正含义，我非常非常赞同这一点。这就像你的软件应该在每个环节都更聪明一些，而不是仅仅在某一点是聪明的，然后其他所有地方都是笨的。
英文原文
>> it is that they are in the path of codeyou write it as casually as you write an
if statement inside of a normal
programming language and I think that is
really what he means by smarter software
which I really really endorse which is
like you swear should just be at every
point smarter instead of at one point
smart and then everything else is dumb.
那确实很笨。
英文原文
>> That's really dumb.是的，我认为速度层面的东西比起可靠性来几乎是次要的，而可靠性才是他真正想表达的。这就是为什么这家公司叫 Typesafe。
英文原文
>> Yeah, I think the the speed stuff isalmost secondary to the reliability
which is what he really is trying to
say. That's why the company is called
Typesafe.
不过是的，速度快确实很好。
英文原文
>> But yeah, the speed is nice.我刚发现 Diego 本人也是一个非常，你知道，善于社交的人物，而且他对他一直在做的事情非常充满热情。所以我只是好奇，你知道，你和很多比如研究人员、开发者，或者 AI 工程师都交流过。你觉得为什么是 Diego 做出了 Jaff？他是相比于你交流过的其他类型的研究人员或人来说有什么特别或不同之处吗？因为我觉得在听到他谈论他正在构建的东西和他所坚信的东西时，感到他非常特别。
英文原文
>> I just found out that Dieago himselfalso a very you know social character
and and he's really passionate about
what he's been doing. So I just wonder
you know you you've talked to a lot of
like researchers and developers or you
know uh AI engineers what do you think
why was Dieago that made the Jaff was it
something special or different from
other kinds of um researchers or people
that you've um talked with cuz I find it
quite special about about him talking to
the what he's building and what he's
believing.
他自己有着非传统的背景。他没有去读斯坦福博士以及诸如此类的事情。所以他对普通开发者有同理心，但他也参与过 ChatGPT 的工作。
英文原文
>> He has a nontraditional backgroundhimself. He didn't go to like Stanford
PhD and all the kind those kind of
things. So he has that sympathy with a
regular developer but he also worked on
Chachib.
嗯。
英文原文
>> Mhm.而且我认为很多走传统机器学习研究路线的人，你去了顶尖大学，然后做了一些有趣的论文，接着被聘入一个实验室，在实验室里工作。他们身处大模型狂热之中。一切都将通过把模型做得更大、在训练运行中使用更多更多的 FLOPs、更多参数以及更多更多更多来解决，对吧？
英文原文
>> And I think that a lot of people whomaybe they went through the traditional
ML researcher path you go to a top
university and then you work on some
interesting paper and then you get hired
into a lab and you work on a lab. They
are in the big models cult. everything
will be solved by making our model
bigger by having more more flops in our
training run and more parameters and
more more more more right
额，所以需要一个不来自那种模子的人，才能真正指出：其实还有另一种做法，那就是把较小的东西散布在各处，而不是搞一个庞大的模型。
英文原文
>> um and so it takes someone who doesn'tcome from that mold to really say well
actually there's another way to do this
which is smaller stuff that is sprinkled
everywhere instead of one big one
我认为顺便说一句，Diego 并不是第一个这么做的人，已经有成千上万的人曾尝试说小模型很好，
英文原文
>> and I think that is by the way Diego wasnot the first to do that there's been
thousands of people who have tried to
say smaller model's good,
对吧？
英文原文
>> right?更快、更便宜、更好，诸如此类。
英文原文
>> Faster, cheaper, better, whatever.但不知怎么的，Diego 做成功了。
英文原文
>> But somehow Dooo worked第一，因为他有来自 OpenAI 的信誉。
英文原文
>> one because he has the credibility ofOpenAI.
第二，他把它塑造成了系统 1 与系统 2 的对比，我认为这让沟通变得非常清晰，清晰到你甚至可以玩《毁灭战士》之类的。他在发布贴里展示了某个游戏 demo，非常清楚地表明，你绝不可能用 LLM 来做这个。嗯。
英文原文
>> Two, he made it into a system one versussystem 2 thing which I think was makes
the communication very clear to the
point where you can play Doom or
whatever it was what there's some game
demo that he that he showed in the
launch post that was very clear like
there's no way you will ever use LM to
do this. Mhm.
而且我认为那种表现力，他穿着粉色夹克，他如此充满激情并且在表达，那种表现力加上技术能力，这又有点类似于公开学习。就像我是这方面的一个小版本，对吧？比如我懂技术，而且我能表达。但对于他来说，他在这两个维度上都有十倍的水平，我认为在与他交谈时这真的能充分体现出来。而且我想我的下一个问题是关于你在为其他初创公司提供顾问方面的角色。刚才你提到了，我只是非常好奇，你知道，对于我们作为顾问角色，究竟你在给那些初创公司提供什么样的建议，以及——
英文原文
>> And I think that showmanship that hewears the pink jacket, he he's so
passionate and he's talking that
showmanship plus the technical
capability is again like similar to the
learning public like I'm a small version
of that, right? Like I'm technically
capable and I can talk. But for him,
he's like 10x on both dimensions and I
think that really comes through in when
you talk to him. And also I guess my
next question is about your your roles
on advising other startups spec just you
mentioned I'm just very curious you know
for for us as as advising role like u
exactly what kind of advices that you
are working with those startups and
初创公司顾问与出海市场经验
我能做什么？我也很好奇你能为你的听众以及为我做什么，是的，
英文原文
>> how I can do I'm also curious what canyou for your listeners and for me yeah
你为其他公司做些什么？哦，是的。我们实际上是一个三年前成立的社区，当时我们发现很多中国本土的创始人想要走向全球，然后我认为他们在迅速构建或交付产品方面非常擅长，但他们发现在市场进入、营销推广以及理解市场之间存在巨大的鸿沟。
英文原文
>> what do you do for other companies? Ohyeah. So we are actually a community
that started three years ago that we
found out that a lot of uh Chinese based
founders want to go global and then uh I
think u they were pretty good at
building uh or ship products quickly but
they found a huge gap between uh you
know go to market marketing and
understanding the market.
好的。如果你是一位试图在美国取得成功的中国创始人，
英文原文
>> Okay. If you're a Chinese founder tryingto make it in the US,
你在这方面做得很糟糕，[笑声] 你的技术非常过硬，但你营销做得很差，你最好去和擅长的人聊聊，因为你自己搞不定。是的，
英文原文
>> you suck at this [laughter]and you are very good at your tech and
you suck at marketing and you better
talk to someone who's good uh because
you cannot do it yourself. Yeah,
就这样。
英文原文
>> that's it.对。对。对。[笑声] 是的。对，所以这就是实际上发现的，在理解本地市场以及正确交付产品并找到你的 PMF 之间，存在着巨大的鸿沟。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Right.Yeah. So that's that's how actually
found out that there's a huge gap
between you know understanding the local
market and you know um and then ship the
product correctly and find your PMF.
是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.是的。所以我们基本上会举办大量的聚会，然后与这里的一些顾问合作，努力为那些确实开始找到一点 PMF 的正确轨道、但仍然缺乏一些人才以及来自市场进入方面帮助的创始人提供不同的训练营、工作坊和咨询。
英文原文
>> Yeah. So that's basically we hold out alot of meetups and then working with
some advisors here and then try to
provide different camps workshops and
adversaries to those founders really
start to find a little bit there you
know on the right track of BMF but still
lack some talents and uh you know help
from from the go to market side eye.
是的。这很有意思，我们也举办聚会。所以在 Diego 实际上发布 Jev 之前，他其实就在这个房间里。哦，好的。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Uh it's interesting I we also hostmeetups. So so do actually before he
launched uh Jev uh he was actually here
in this in this room. Oh, okay.
我们举办这种作者聚会之类的活动，大家可以在活动中展示自己的作品，而我会对其发表点评。
英文原文
>> Uh, we hold this like sort of um writersmeetup thing where people can show their
work and I will give commentary on on
it.
那个类似 Typesafe 宣言的东西就是由此产生的。不过我觉得这与那种情况非常相似，除了对于其中一些人，我会为了股权来做这件事。
英文原文
>> Um, and so the sort of type safemanifesto came out of that. But I I
think it's very similar to to that
except that I would for some pe some of
them I'll do it for equity.
大多数我是免费做的，然后他们当中的一些人希望进行定期的通话，或者别的什么，然后他们就会提供一些股权。这样操作更省事，而且事实证明，如果公司发展得非常好，它会值很多钱，
英文原文
>> Most of it I do it for free and thensome of them they want to have a like a
recurring call um or they or something
they then then they offer some equity.
It's just easier to do that and it turns
out it's worth a lot of money if it if
the company does very well,
对吧？
英文原文
>> right?所以就一份工作而言，我认为这很有趣，因为你不能拿股权当饭吃，而且可能他们永远都不会变现。比如 Databricks 已经有大约 15 年历史了，估值 2000 亿美元，但就像“我持有我的股权，这到底算什么？”不过我认为，能够在一批不同的公司上检验你的理论是非常有用的。所以当你在一家公司当员工时，你只看到一个例子，你的建议也只在一家公司起作用。但现在我已经接触了 30 多家、35、36 家不同的公司，
英文原文
>> So I think that is interesting in termsof like a job because it's you cannot
eat equity and like maybe they never
sell like data bricks is like whatever
15 years old and worth $200 billion and
this like I have my equity like what is
it? But um I think it's it's very useful
to be able to test your theories on a
number of different companies. So when
you work as an employee in one company,
you only see one example and your advice
only works in one company. But now that
I have done 30 something 35 36 different
companies,
我真的能看到它们所有人当中的普遍真理，并且作为所有这些公司的顾问，我表现得更好，
英文原文
>> I can really see the universal truthsamong all of them and I'm I'm better as
an adviser to all of them
因为我都尝试过了，
英文原文
>> because I've tried everything,对吧？
英文原文
>> right?我和每个人都聊过。而且我理解不同的场景，比如好，我的建议在这里对你不起作用，因为我在另一家公司试过，而且你知道你的情况显然非常不同。而且我觉得其实几乎所有领域的专职专家——比如我恰好深耕开发者营销，对吧，那是我的专长，但如果你在，我不知道，战略财务领域工作，或者你在 GPU 算力采购之类的工作，并且你正试图成为该领域的全球第一，你或多或少必须经历一段给所有人提供顾问建议的历练，
英文原文
>> I talk to everyone. And I like and I Iunderstand the different scenarios of
like okay my advice is not going to work
for you here because I tried it at this
other company and and and you know your
situation is like clearly very different
and like I I I feel like actually almost
all domain subject matter experts like I
happen to own developer marketing right
that's my thing but if you work in I
don't know your strategic finance or
you're working in like GPU
compute acquisition or whatever and you
and you are trying to be a global number
one in that you kind of have to go
through a tour of duty of just advising
everyone
这样你就可以测试所有东西，
英文原文
>> so you can just take testeverything
其中有些行不通，
英文原文
>> some of it doesn't work但有时，我是说它们中的一些显然是会起效的，
英文原文
>> but some but sometimes I mean some ofthem is clearly going to work
然后你就会学到东西，这就是唯一的——比如你的样本量必须大于一，而大多数人的样本量大约是五个，但是你知道，如果你能把它提高到比如 50 个左右，那么不管怎样你可能就已经是该领域的顶尖人物之一了，
英文原文
>> and then you will learn and that's theonly like your sample size has to be
more than one and most people sample
size is like five but like you know if
you can get it up to like 50 then like
you probably are one of the top in the
field anyway
而且我可以和你分享一些，你知道，
英文原文
>> and I can share with you some you know我在那些出海的中国创始人身上发现了一些非常相似的地方。因为现在越来越多的人具有工程背景，甚至研究背景，
英文原文
some something that I find it quite similar in in those you know go global Chinese founders because right now more and more came from engineering background even research background and他们觉得自己在打造最好的产品，因为他们拥有最好的驾驭技能，或者说技术专长、专业知识等等。但实际上，有时在客户真正想要的东西与你所提供的技能及产品之间，仍然存在着巨大的鸿沟。有时不同的本地市场甚至会有不同的需求。在那些技术型创始人、研究型创始人身上，你是否也见过类似的情况？因为这里也有很多创始人来自相同的背景。
英文原文
>> they they think that they're building >> the best products because they have like best harness skill or you know technical skills and knowledges etc but actually there's still sometimes a huge gap between you know what the customer actually wants that the skills at products you offer and sometimes like different local markets have even have different you know demands and have seen a similar things on those technical founders, research founders because I there also a lot of >> founders can from the same background.是的。
英文原文
Yeah,产品核心与早期 GTM
考察或者解决这个问题有很多种方式。最重要的一点是要认识到：如果你手头有很聪明的东西，你认为它很有价值，而且你确实是全球第一——在某一件事上做到了世界顶尖——那就是最重要的东西。所以其他的一切，我总是称之为……
英文原文
>> there's a bunch of ways to to survey this or to tackle this. Uh the the most important thing to recognize is that if you are if you have something smart and like you think it's valuable and you're global number one really like you are world best at one thing like that's the most important thing. So everything else is uh I always call it点睛，
英文原文
>> dining,对吧？就像你有了龙。好吧，我可以帮你画眼睛，但关键是你得先有龙。那就是……要知道，大多数人根本连龙都没有，对吧？所以那样挺好。
英文原文
>> right? Like you have the long. Okay, I will help you with the ting but like you have the long. That's the you know and most people don't have the long, >> right? So like that's that's good.我觉得有一部分人其实连龙都没有，却以为自己有龙，然后这就演变成了傲慢和自负的问题，对吧？但我们先假设你确实有一款非常好的产品。
英文原文
>> Um I think that there are some percentage of people who don't even have the long and they think they have the long and like then this like okay it's like a arrogance ego thing, right? But let's assume that you are genuinely have a very good product.我觉得这里真正重要的事情是，你不应该把市场营销当成最后一公里，搞得好像是：“嘿，所有事情我都做完了。现在是发布博客文章的前一天晚上，你能帮我审阅一下博客文章并修改一下吗？”那我什么也做不了。因为你已经把所有事情都做完了。但如果你在流程更早的阶段就让市场营销介入，直接追溯到它真正被构建或制定规格之前——比如我们要用什么方式去宣传？我们要切入市场的哪一个细分领域？——这样从一开始你的产品里就会融入更多的 GTM（走向市场）。我认为很多工程师或研究人员所界定的受众，在那么早的阶段根本没有那种 GTM 头脑。他们通常会把它一直推迟到最后。
英文原文
>> And I think the the important thing actually here is that you should not treat marketing as the last mile of like, hey, I did everything. It is the last night before the blog post. Can you review my blog post and change it? There's nothing I can do. Like you already did everything. But if you involve marketing earlier in the process, right down to like before it's really built or speced out like what what is the way we're going to pitch what part of the segment of the market we're going to go then you have more GTM built into the product in the first place and I think that a lot of engineer or researcher defined audiences don't have that GTM brain that early. They usually put it all the way at the end.对。
英文原文
Yeah,公司里最基层的部分就是这个 GTM 团队，就像找几个实习生，或者某个运营社交媒体的 22 岁年轻人。不，应该认真去对待：到底是哪类客户应该使用这个东西？他们在哪儿聚集？他们面临什么问题？他们用什么词汇来描述自己的问题？他们在看到你的东西之后，生活会如何变好？对吧？非常简单的事情，大多数研究型、工程型创始人根本没有想过这一点。但如果他们有一个做 GTM 的合伙人，我认为通常是非常有用的。
英文原文
>> that the most junior part of the company is this GTM organization is like some interns from like some 22 year old person who is like running social media. No, like actually try to be serious about your the who what customer is supposed to use this thing and how where do they hang out? What problems do they face? What words do they use to describe their problems and how is their life going to be better after they see your thing? Right? uh and so uh very simple things most researcher engineer founders have not thought about this but if they have a GTM partner I think that that is often very useful机器人领域的 Demo 与营销法则
我想到的另一件事，然后就涉及到更多开发者工具。我发现很多中国创始人都在做机器人，
英文原文
um I think the other thing that I and then it comes to more to develop developer tools I find a lot of Chinese founders are robotics对。
英文原文
>> right机器人也是一个非常有趣的领域，因为它的时间周期要长得多，而且仍处于非常早期的阶段，对吧？怎么这些中国机器人创始人全都做叠衣服？
英文原文
>> um and robotics is also a very interesting space because it is much longer time horizon and still very early days right like how come all of these Chinese robotics founders they all the full laundry就像 Unitree 是最棒的，至少是……但他们依然在做 Unitree 那些老一套。
英文原文
>> right like unitry is the best and uh at least like but they're still unitry is still doing unitry things and我希望看到他们做出一些你绝想不到 Unitree 居然会去做的事情。但现在他们本周刚刚推出的东西，正在打功夫招式。
英文原文
>> I would like them to see things that you never expected unry to ever do but right now you know the the the thing that they they just launched this week they're doing kung fu moves功夫，对。
英文原文
>> kung fu yeah但是好吧，那种东西我以前见过了。给我看点我没见过的，那样我才会真正去关注。我觉得那是在机器人领域很难展示出来的东西。不过我认为用模型依然能做到，因为现在还处于非常早期的阶段；而对于像面向消费者体验的创新产品想法，就做不到那样。所以我觉得做演示非常重要。这也是为什么显然 Typeface 刚出来不久但反响极好。虽然他们并没有做出那个 Doom 的演示，但那个 Doom 演示正是大家都在谈论的东西。那个演示是由他们的 GTM 团队做出来的。那正是市场营销中的一条核心原则：只展现，不空谈（show don't tell），对吧？展示给我看这个东西带来的好处，而不是用要点条目列出这到底是什么，
英文原文
>> but like okay I've seen that before you know like show me something that I haven't seen and then then I'm really going to pay attention you know I I think that's that's something that uh is hard to show in robotics but um I think with models you can do that still cuz it's still so early days and with uh innovative like uh products ideas for like for consumer experiences you can't do that. So I think to show the demo I think is very important which is why again obviously type safe is like very recent but also very good. It is not the do the yogo did not come out with the doom demo but the doom demo is what everyone talks about. The demo is done by dero like GTM and that that is that is something that just is a core principle in marketing which is show don't tell right like show me this thing having the benefits but don't tell me别给我一份 PDF、一份幻灯片、一份 PowerPoint 演示来告诉我所有这些事情，直接展示给我看。
英文原文
>> in bullet points what this is don't give me a PDF a slide presentation PowerPoint that tells me all these things just show me何为“品味”
顺着这个话题，可能还有一个跟品味（taste）有关的问题，因为大家都在谈论品味，而且我认为无论是走向市场还是构建产品，也都需要品味。
英文原文
>> and maybe just a followup is about the taste cuz you know everyone is talking about the taste and then I think go to market and building the product also needs the taste.对，对，对，可能确实如此。
英文原文
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably true.实际上对我来说，要定义什么是品味已经变得有点困难了，因为投资人都在谈论这个。所以我只是想知道你的看法，你在那些工程师甚至创始人面前会如何定义品味？
英文原文
>> Actually, I just have becoming a little bit hard for me to define what a taste is cuz investor talk about so I just wonder your view like how do you define the taste in front of those engineers or even founders.好吧。我可以给出一个不太起实际作用的定义方式：品味就是某种能力，让你能够从大量的可能性中，快速且低成本地将范围缩小……
英文原文
>> Okay. I can define taste in a way that is not helpful. Taste is something where you are able to out of a large set of possibilities, you're able to narrow it down quickly, cheaply缩小到当你回过头看时，能一眼看出其卓越之处的那组可能性中。
英文原文
>> to the set of possibilities that when you look back is immediately obvious is good.所以当你处于起步阶段时，放眼望去有一千件不同的事情可以去做。我该选哪一件呢？对吧。
英文原文
>> So you when you're at the start, you look out there's a thousand different things I can possibly do. Which one do I choose? Right.对。
英文原文
>> Yeah.暴力穷举，你可以暴力穷举。你可以把那一千种全试一遍，然后找出一个好的。但一个有品味的人可以说：“对，显而易见这些都很糟糕。我说不清楚，我无法解释，但显而易见这些都很糟糕。这一个看起来……这个工具有点意思。”然后在这段旅程的终点，
英文原文
>> The brute force, you can brute force. You can try 1,000 of them and then you find a good one. But a tasteful person can say, "Yeah, obviously these are bad. I don't I cannot explain it. I cannot explain. But obviously these are bad. This one looks this this tool looks interesting." And then at the end of the journey,他们会选出一种，而你回头看时就会觉得：“好吧，那就是……”
英文原文
>> they'll pick one and you look back and you're like, "Well, that is对。“你之前考虑其他 999 种是什么意思？显然这才是正确的那一个。”这有许多个版本和应用场景，但我现在脑海中浮现的一个是 iPhone。在很长一段时间里，智能手机都是带键盘的，直到史蒂夫·乔布斯说：“不，无论付出什么代价，我们都要采用触摸屏和虚拟化屏幕，因为它需要看起来像一块平整板状的屏幕。”
英文原文
>> Yeah. What do you mean we're considering the other 999? Obviously, this was the correct one." There's many versions applications of this but um the one that's coming to mind right now is the iPhone where uh for a long time this the smartphone had a keyboard and it took Steve Jobs to say no we will do whatever it takes to have touchscreen and virtualized screen because it look needs to look like a screen that's a flat slab.嗯。
英文原文
>> Mhm.那耗费了 10 年的研发时间，因为之前有一家叫 General Magic 的公司尝试做这个并且失败了。但是很显然，现在全世界的每一部手机都长成这样。那就是品味。在 1990 年人们开始拥有智能手机的时候，你能做的事情有非常非常多，但需要有品味的人站出来说：“对，这就是我们想要的，我对其他所有选项说不，
英文原文
And that took 10 years to R&D because there was a company called General Magic that tried to do this and failed. And but like obviously now every phone in the world looks like this. That is that is taste. In 1990 when people were starting to have smartphones you could do a number a huge number of things but it takes the the person with taste to say like yeah this is what we want and I'm going to say no to everything else我发布的第一款手机就必须是这样的。”如果你回顾所有这些 AI 产品，你能分享一个你认为有品味的例子吗？我其实觉得 Cursor 所做的一切都非常有品味，因为他们之前第一个跟进了 VS Code，现在他们正在做 Crockpot，这也是非常有品味的一件事，
英文原文
>> and my first phone I ship was going to be this. If you're looking back all those AI products, could you share an example that you think uh you find it has taste? I actually think that everything that cursor does has a lot of taste because they were first to the VS code thing before and now they're they're doing Crockpot which is like a good taste thing因为现在连 OpenAI 都不得不去抄他们，诸如此类，
英文原文
>> because like now now like OpenAI has to like copy them and what [snorts] have you还有 Claude 也得去抄他们。要证明自己有品味，标志就是别人纷纷抄袭你刚发布的东西。在深入到各个实验室之下，这是一种很有趣的途径。我认为思考人们解决的那些更为枯燥的问题也很有趣。法律领域的 Leya，他们有一套类似文档审查的流程，那是大规模并行的。
英文原文
>> and uh Claude has to copy them which like you know you have taste when other people copy the thing that you just shipped. the interesting way, you know, to go below the labs. I think it's interesting to think about like the more boring [clears throat] kind of problems that people solve. Uh, Lora, you know, in in the legal field, they uh they they have this sort of like document review process that's like massively parallel.一旦你见识过那个，你就会觉得：
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>> And like once you see that, you're like,“我不想在其他任何地方干活了。我必须在 Leya 里面做。”
英文原文
>> I don't want to do my work anywhere else. I I I have to do it in Lagora.嗯。
英文原文
Mhm.同样，换成任何人本来都能想出这个点子。想法是不值钱的，
英文原文
>> And like again like anyone could have come up with it anyway. Ideas are cheap但你没有去做，
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>> but you didn't do it.Leya 做了。所以 Leya 的某些人具备这种品味：“在你可以做的十亿件可能的事情中，我们将精准定义出这些产品，让它成为人们日常工作的固定方式。”
英文原文
>> Lor did it. And so someone at Lorra has that taste of like we will define this billion possible things you can do. We will just define this products that that becomes the way that people do their work.上海之行展望
对。我想我们快要结束了，而且大概两周后我们谈到的抵沪行程就要成行了。我只是想知道，你期望从那里的构建者或开发者身上看到什么或学到什么？实际上你最感兴趣的是哪些话题？
英文原文
>> Yeah. I think uh coming to an end and I think probably we have talked about the arriving arrives in Shanghai like two two weeks later. Uh I just wonder you know what do you hope to to see or to learn from the builders or the develops there? What kind of topics actually are you most interested at?这很难说，因为这更多是……
英文原文
>> It's tough because it's more of a中美生态与工作节奏差异
对我来说是差异所在。我想看看上海和旧金山到底有多么不同。
英文原文
differential for me. I want to see how very different Shanghai is from San Francisco因为我觉得旧金山存在 B2B SaaS 泡沫，但上海——你们用 ComfyUI。我们在这里不用它。
英文原文
>> because I think San Francisco has a B2B SAS bubble but Shanghai you you guys use Comfy UI. We don't use it here.好吧。
英文原文
>> Okay.我们喜欢我们的 Canva，我们喜欢我们的 foul AI。
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>> We like our Canva. We like our foul AI.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.呃，不用，不用 coffee。像 conf 更像是一个开源工具。open call 也是一样。open call 在这里比 conf 更受关注——
英文原文
>> Uh don't use don't use coffee. Like conf is more of like a open source tool. And same same for open call. Open call had more traction here than conf但 open call 确实很有吸引力。
英文原文
>> but open call was really attractive.确实很有吸引力。是的。［笑］我敢说你听过那个。
英文原文
>> Really try. Yeah. [laughter] I bet you heard that.是的，是的，我当然知道。但就像我还没亲眼见过那种干劲。而且我觉得非常不一样，就像，你知道，对你们来说一个中等规模的社群是一百万人，这在这里是巨大的。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah. Of course I know. But like I haven't seen that kind of energy myself. And I think it's very different like the you know for you a medium-sized community is one million people that's huge in here.是的。［笑］
英文原文
>> Yeah. [laughter]嗯，一百万在中国也已经是顶尖的了。我，像我见过那种，你知道，中国的网红基地，全都是中国女孩在做这个，对着手机，就好像中国的规模就是如此不同，竞争太激烈了，对吧？就像人们说他们在旧金山搞 996。他们并没有真正搞，比如周六周日他们还在某种程度上放松，但在中国他们是真正的 996。
英文原文
>> Well a million is already the topest in China as well. I like I've seen those kind of like you know Chinese like influencer farms like it's like all these Chinese girls like doing this and the phone like it's like the scale in China is just so different and it's so competitive, right? Like people say they do 996 in in San Francisco. They don't really like Saturday, Sunday, they're still kind of chilling, but in China they are really 96.嗯，这在初创公司以及大科技公司里算挺正常的。
英文原文
>> Well, it it's kind of normal in startups and also the big tech.是的。但我觉得那，我觉得那真的很拼。人们不想像，就像——
英文原文
>> Yeah. But I think that I think that's really intense. People don't want like to and like,对吧？［嗤笑］
英文原文
>> right? [snorts]是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.很拼。
英文原文
>> Intense.对。
英文原文
>> Yes.是的。而且这里的人没那么拼命工作。
英文原文
>> Right. And like people here don't work that hard.我听说工程师或初创公司创始人工作那么拼。
英文原文
>> I heard that engineers or startup founders work that hard.我工作那么拼是因为我没有安全感。但像员工——
英文原文
>> I work that hard because I have no security. But like employees员工——
英文原文
>> employees法律上你不能要求人们在那里工作。［笑］
英文原文
>> legally you cannot ask people to work there. [laughter]这是违法的。好吧。是的，我见过一些最具竞争力的顶尖美国初创公司，我很确信他们工作没有中国那么拼。有 BAT，有像第一代，然后有第二代——
英文原文
>> It's illegal. Okay. Yeah. I've seen some of the most competitive top tier US startups and I'm sure they're not working as hard as China. There's BAT. There's like the first generation then there's like second第二代——
英文原文
>> second generation不管叫什么。
英文原文
>> whatever the thing is.是的。我是说像那些人，我的天啊。就像——
英文原文
>> Yeah. I mean like those guys. Oh my god. Like你是怎么了解，呃，你有没有——
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>> how did you learn uh the did you他们是如此出色的创始人。
英文原文
>> They're such good founders.是的。
英文原文
>> Yes.他们是如此优秀，如果他们生活在错误的国家。如果他们生活在美国，他们会干掉，他们会干掉亚马逊。他们会干掉像 Facebook，对吧？他们没能更富有的唯一原因就是他们生活在中国。
英文原文
>> They're such good like if they they live in the wrong country. If they live in the US, they'll kill they'll kill Amazon. They'll kill like Facebook, right? The only reason they're not richer is they live in China.还有 SaaS，我是说软件也是如此。
英文原文
>> Also the SAS, I mean the software as well.是的。我是说，甚至，甚至像——好吧。所以当我在 2007 年去北大留学时，比亚迪还像是在说，哦，我们正崭露头角，你知道，我们立足中国，我们将永远是中国企业，对吧？
英文原文
>> Yeah. I mean, even even like Okay. So, when I did my study abroad in Beta in 2007, BYD was still like, oh, we're we're up and coming like, you know, we're we're Chinese based. We'll always be Chinese, right?这里的人很喜欢比亚迪。
英文原文
>> People love BYD here.哦，真的吗？
英文原文
>> Oh, really?比亚迪正在占领美国。这太不可思议了，就像我绝不会想到，绝想不到比亚迪会来到这里。这太不可思议了。而且我，我不知道要得出什么样的结论，我会这么说：我认为中国的活力、精神、创造力和坚韧是人们未曾接触到的东西。更不用说模型实验室了，显然比如像 DeepSeek 以及所有那些，所有那些实验室。所以，我认为有很多理由令人兴奋去把那些更多地展现出来。呃，特别是，你知道，我觉得中国的活动，它们非常——有针对直播的监管规定，但即使是呈现方式也不同于西方受众喜欢消费的方式。所以，它们没有同样的传播范围，对吧？阿里做了，阿里云做了类似这样的事情，他们展示了包括通义千问等所有内容的整个阿里巴巴路线图。这里没人看到。
英文原文
>> BYD is taking over the US. It's crazy and like I would never have thought never that BYD would ever come here. It's insane. And I I don't know what I don't know what conclusion I will say this. I think that the Chinese energy and spirit and creativity and grit is something that people don't have exposure to. And then don't that's not even talking about the model labs which obviously like Deep Seek and um all those all those labs. So, I think there's many reasons to be excited about exposing that more. Uh, especially, you know, I think Chinese events, they're very, there's regulations against live streaming, but even they're presented differently than the way that Western audiences like to consume them. So, they don't have the same reach, right? Ali did like Ali Yun did like this thing where they presented the whole Alibaba road map with the Quen and everything. Nobody saw it here.为什么？因为那是夹在由其他人主讲的某个企业宣讲中间。所以我不得不去为美国受众翻译所有东西。
英文原文
>> Why? because it was in the middle of some corporate presentation presented by other people. So I had to go and translate everything for for the US audience.但就像——
英文原文
>> But like就跟我一起做，对吧？就在上面做，他们就会看到的。
英文原文
>> just do it with me, right? Just do it on the they will see it.是的，是的，是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.而且我也看到已经有一些，呃，像 MiniMax 这样的开源模型公司参加了今年在旧金山举办的 AIE。是的。
英文原文
>> And also I saw that already there's some um open source like motor companies attended AIE this year in San Francisco Mini Max. Yeah.是的。所以我的意思是，呃，我们希望大家都能参与进来。呃，而且我认为有很多人对那种跨文化交流感兴趣，对政治不感兴趣，
英文原文
>> Yeah. So I mean uh we we hope to have representation from everybody. Um, and I I think that there's a lot of people interested in in that cross-cultural exchange that are not interested in the politics,对吧？
英文原文
>> right?就像我们不谈政治，我们只谈技术。
英文原文
>> Like we will not do politics, we'll only do tech.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.快问快答：前沿技术与风险思考
好的，太棒了。真的非常期待。所以我猜这就是我全部的问题了，但我还有大约三个快问快答的问题。任何第一时间浮现在你脑海里的东西都行。但第一个是，你知道，目前最让你感到兴奋的 AI 进展是什么，以及实际上什么最让你担忧？
英文原文
>> Okay, that's great. And really really look for for and so I guess this all my question but I still have like three quick fire questions. anything just first pop up in your mind but first is you know what AI development or are you most excited about right now and actually what actually worries you most最让我兴奋的 AI 进展，我认为系统一模型是一个非常明确的第一名答案，所以这很无趣，我不打算说这个。我认为人们尚未充分关注的是交互模型——
英文原文
>> AI development that most excites me I think system one models is like a very clear number one answer so it's boring so I'm not going to say it so I think the thing that people are under the radar about is interaction models交互模型。
英文原文
>> interaction model呃，这是 Thinking Machines 正在做的事情，对于那些还没——错过了那次发布的人，可以去查一查。那就是你在任何时候都能进行全双工的来回交流。不是你先开始，然后轮流来：我讲一句，你讲一句。不，在任何时候，就像你在说的同时也在听，我跟你说的同时也在听你讲，我可以打断你，你会立即回应并调整。
英文原文
>> uh so this is something that thinking machine is doing for people who haven't who missed the announcement look it up it is where you are full duplex back and forth communication at all times. You don't start and then you take a turn. I take a turn, you take a turn. No, at at like at all times like you are listening while you're speaking and I'm listening to you while I'm speaking and I can interrupt you and you will immediately respond and adjust.是的，我看到了演示——
英文原文
>> Yeah, I saw the demo by那应该就是 AI 的方向，对吧？随之而来的一个推论是持续学习的 AI，在那里你不再是预训练、后训练完事。你在跟我合作的过程中边学边学，那是一个非常有趣且重要的领域。最后一部分是世界模型。
英文原文
>> that should be the way of AI, right? There's a corollery of that which is continual learning AI where you don't have pre-train, post- train done. you are learn learn as I work with you and that's just very that's a very interesting and important field and then the last part is world models.嗯。
英文原文
>> Mhm.显然进展得很好，我不必多加解释。但是的，呃，至于我所担忧的，就我个人而言，如果我们迎来一个 AI 寒冬——现在是一个 AI 夏天。这可能是人类历史上经历的最长的一个 AI 夏天。但 AI 的历史大约有 50 年了，总是有夏天，一切都会奏效。
英文原文
>> Which obviously doing very well and I don't have to explain that but yeah um what I'm worried about I think personally if we have an AI winter it is an AI summer. This is probably the longest AI summer we've ever had in human history. But the history of AI has been is about 50 years old. There's always summers. Everything's going to work.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.冬天，夏天，冬天。如果我们真的迎来冬天，那会是什么时候发生？我会不会破产？
英文原文
winter, summer, winter. If we ever have a winter, when is it going to happen? And am I going to go bankrupt,这对于一家依赖热度的会议公司来说确实是一个切实的担忧。
英文原文
>> which is a is a real concern for a conference company that relies on hype?你知道，从更广的角度来看，我认为确实存在安全方面的担忧，我所有在各大实验室的朋友都非常非常担忧，这是社会无法承受且无法足够快做出调整的。这并不是因为假新闻，并不是因为失去工作，而是某种更糟糕的事情。你知道，现在我们表达它的方式是网络安全，就像是：哦，我一直被黑客攻击，每天我都被黑、黑、黑、黑。
英文原文
You know, more more broadly, I think that there is a real concern about safety that all my friends at all the labs are really really worried about and that society cannot handle and adjust quickly enough. And it is not because of fake news. It is not because of losing your jobs. It is something worse. You know, right now the the way that we express it is cyber security. It's like, oh, I get hacked all the time. Every every day I hack hack hack hack.我觉得在地平线上还有某种更糟糕的事情，我们对其一无所知。最极端的版本就是生物武器，对吧？就像：哎呀，我合成了 CO 2。
英文原文
>> I feel like there's something even worse on the horizon that we don't know about. The most extreme version of this is boweapons, right? Like oops, like I have invented CO 2.嗯。
英文原文
>> Mhm.是的。要是比那更糟呢？所以，我们在我们做的播客里对此的表述是，大多数人的默认假设应该是 AI 毁灭论。也就是，在整个人类历史中，当一个更先进的文明出现并遇到一个较不先进的文明时，较不先进的文明就会走向灭绝。而这东西的演进速度大约比我们快 1000 倍。因此在某一刻，它会变得更加先进。到那时我们必须想好该怎么做。
英文原文
>> Yeah. What if it's worse than that? So, so, um, the way that we phrase it in on the podcast that we do is that the default assumption for most people should be AI doom. That, uh, in all of human history, when a more advanced civilization comes along and meets a less advanced civilization, the less advanced civilization goes extinct. And this thing is evolving roughly 1,000 times faster than us. And so, at some point, it's going to be more advanced. And then we have to figure out what to do there.好的。酷。是的，第二个问题，嗯，就稍微轻松一点，就是你还推荐哪些其他的通讯、播客或其他内容？
英文原文
>> No. Cool. Yeah. And and the second question will be well just a bit light one is that what kind of other newsletters and podcasts other contents do you recommend?我有一个清单，呃，叫作优质 AI 通讯和播客清单。
英文原文
>> I have a list uh it's called the good AI newsletters and podcast list.好的。是在那上面吗？好的。
英文原文
>> Okay. Is it on the Okay.它在我的 GitHub 上。呃，但其实比较新的那个你可以查看 AEO.ent.space。基本上我做的事情就是询问每一个模型：对于工程师来说最好的 AI 播客是什么？它给我一个清单，我把它转录下来，列成一个排名。好的，
英文原文
>> It's it's on my GitHub. Uh but actually the for the more recent one you can check uh AEO.ent.space. So basically what I did was I asked every model what are the best AI podcast for engineers and it gives me a list and I transcribe it and I put it in a ranking. Okay,我问了 200 个这样的问题。最好的——
英文原文
>> I asked 200 of these questions. What is the best支付初创公司是什么？最好的银行是什么？最好的财务顾问是什么？最好的数据库是什么？最好的——所有一切，我提问的每一个、每一个问题。
英文原文
>> payment startup? What is the best bank? What is the best financial advisor? What is the best database? What is everything every every question that I这就是你为什么把它叫做 AEO。
英文原文
>> That's why you call it AEO.是的。因为我是在针对模型所回答的内容进行智能体优化（agent optimizing）。但它大概是一个相当不错的代表，反映了各大实验室里挑选数据集的人所做的选择，而他们选择了 Latent Space。
英文原文
>> Yes. Because I'm agent optimizing for what the models answer. But it's probably a pretty decent proxy for what the people who choose the data sets in in the labs choose and they choose laten space.好的。［音乐］排名最靠前的，第一个——
英文原文
>> Okay. [music] The the top the first one它的表现非常好。呃，要么是第一名，要么是排在——［清嗓子］
英文原文
>> it is does very well. uh is either number one or number between number [clears throat]一和第三，然后，对，所以这就是……这就是回答。
英文原文
oneand
number
three
and
and
yeah
so
that's
that's
the
answer.
好的。我想我把最后一个问题留给你来问我，如果你有任何问题的话，然后……
英文原文
>> Cool.I
guess
I
just
leave
the
last
question
for
you
to
ask
me
if
you
have
any
questions
and
then
你对 AI Shanghai 有什么期望？
英文原文
>> whatare
your
hosts
for
AI
Shanghai?
好的，当然。所以我……我希望听到更多……嗯……话题，比如就像你说的，更多基础设施方面的内容，例如安全、支付，或者那些正在释放世界上更多应用的事物，那些来自不同……比如基础设施、亚洲基础设施的内容。我……我只是对这些话题非常好奇，因为呃……在中国对这些的讨论稍微少一些，但我发现，特别是在这里待了几个星期之后，我发现有更多人在讨论，可能还有 RSI 或者那些一线研究人员。所以，我希望这能成为东方与西方之间的一次很棒的交流，比如这里的学者与中国的人们之间的交流，我也希望它能举办成功，然后我们明年可以继续举办。
英文原文
>> Yeah,of
course.
So
I
I
hope
to
listen
to
more
um
topics
about
like
you
said
some
more
infrastructure
stuffs
for
example
like
like
the
safety
the
payments
or
the
things
that
coming
to
unlock
more
uh
applications
in
the
world
that
coming
from
different
like
infrastructure
Asian
infrastructure
I
I
I'm
just
really
curious
about
those
topic
because
uh
it's
kind
of
a
bit
less
discussed
about
in
China
but
I
found
out
that
especially
spending
few
few
weeks
here
I
find
more
people
talking
about
and
also
probably
RSI
or
those
some
frontline
researchers.
So,
and
I
hope
that
it
could
be
a
great
conversations
between
the
east
and
and
the
western
like
the
researchers
here
and
then
the
the
the
people
in
China
as
well
and
I
hope
it
can
be
a
successful
one
and
then
we
can
car
for
continue
to
host
it
on
next
year.
我也希望如此。呃，你知道，我……我祝……祝团队一切顺利。呃，[笑声] 任何事情的第一届，第一届都是最难的，
英文原文
>> Ihope
so
too.
Uh
you
know
I
I
wish
I
wish
the
the
team
a
lot
of
luck.
Uh
[laughter]
doing
the
first
one
of
anything.
The
first
one
is
the
hardest,
对吧？同意。
英文原文
>> right?Agree.
是的。他们正在做这件事，我感到非常佩服。
英文原文
>> Yeah.I'm
I'm
so
impressed
that
they're
doing
it.
非常感谢你，Sean。
英文原文
>> Thankyou
so
much,
Sean.
谢谢你。
英文原文
>> Thankyou.
谢谢。
英文原文
>> Thankyou.