[Jeyan]: Want to get from Toronto to Quebec City in less time than it takes to drive, and without having to deal with airport hassles? Well, that's the promise of the federal government's planned high speed rail line. Alto, ore. That's one of the promises the Prime Minister has mentioned a few more. It's, you know, more cost effective. It's more sustainable. It's connecting our communities. But not everyone's on board with Mark Kearney's vision of a high speed future, and not just because of the estimated 60 to $90 billion price tag. Farmers warn that food security begins with protecting valuable farmland. Yet the Liberals continue to advance the $90 billion Ultra Rail project, despite concerns about its impact on more than 5500 farms. Ontarians concerned about what could happen to farmland and yes, cost and transparency to have formed a groups to fight the plan. We look at how all of this is playing out on the ground in one corner of Ontario. Then the future of urban commuting or public nuisance. We check in on how the province deals with e-bikes now, and how the regulations could and should change. This is The Rundown. Politicians have been promising high speed rail in Canada for decades now. The Liberals have a plan, but it's facing plenty of controversy. Jeff Leal is the mayor of the city of Peterborough, and Bonnie Clark is the warden for Peterborough County, and they join us in studio. How are you both doing?

[Jeff Leal]: Very good. Great to be with you.

[Jeyan]: Well, thank you so much for coming. Making the commute here. Mayor Leal, we'll start with you. 100 kilometre high speed rail. One of those stops is Peterborough proposed. What is the Alto's Stop in Peterborough look like? What are we building here?

[Jeff Leal]: Well first of all, when you look at eastern Ontario, there's three communities that have a university, a college, regional hospital, regional airport, and connected by a four lane highway. Ottawa, Kingston, Peterborough. So the the choice for Peterborough was was pretty easy in terms of of being that that hub. And it's certainly our view as we work with Alto, as we've been doing over the last number of months. To choose an appropriate station location in our community. We're certainly looking at the southeast corner in order to develop that broader transportation hub, to serve the broad region of people coming to take advantage of the 1000 kilometre high speed rail that Alto is proposing. And we see this as a tremendous opportunity for our community. And of course, when a new business comes in, the city of Peterborough benefits our our friends in the county and all eight municipalities in the county of Peterborough. And. And of course, this past week, we made a landmark decision to reduce our development charges by 50%. So we're making Peterborough a real place to invest.

[Jeyan]: All right. Warden Clark, you recently voted along with other wardens of eastern Ontario, against moving forward with a railway proposal in its current form. The mayor did a great job of giving us a bit of a geography there. We have the city of Peterborough in the centre, and we have the county just around it. So help me understand, why are you not sold on Alto?

[Bonnie Clark]: I think when we look at large infrastructure projects with the planning around it, rural Ontario is not always considered. So these projects, when we aren't considered, certainly can be of little or no benefit to rural. So when we look at Alto, we look at the corridor from Ottawa to the city of Peterborough. It is 250km with no stop until we get to the city of Peterborough. So there will be certainly benefits as far as Peterborough County goes. We're in close proximity to the station. But in saying that in its present form is the reason I voted no to the project because it is dividing communities and a nation building project should be good for everyone, including rural Ontario. And when it divides communities and we have roads that are dead ended, that certainly is.

[Jeyan]: Well, help me help me understand a little bit of what your constituents are saying when it comes to this divide and the communities, what are the unique sort of issues that they have with it?

[Bonnie Clark]: Well, first of all, this is going through agricultural land. We are looking at 15,000 acres in total. Certainly, the mayor is a past ag minister certainly knows agriculture. We are our duty is to save agricultural land, and therefore we have not been consulted in a wholesome manner. So each and every municipality that this affects. We're asking, asking for a transparent and wholesome. In saying that, I do know farms that were doing business plans. And right now we're looking at a ten kilometre breath. It's going to go down to 60. But that is stopping a lot of businesses, farm businesses, doing expansions because they are not sure if that farm entity will be severed.

[Jeyan]: You talk about transparency as well. There's NDAs, I believe, that are that Alto is asking commuters to sign and that you have issue with that as well.

[Bonnie Clark]: Not with that per se. I don't have an issue with the NDAs I have initiated with the transparency and how that consultation has come through. We do not have solid answers of where the rail is going. Addressing our concerns. When you look at planning, it is our duty to look at both our municipal locally and our regional plans. And do they line up?

[Jeyan]: Okay. Mayor, the warden has pulled out the resume and said as as you mentioned, in 2014, you were the Minister of Rural Affairs, agriculture. So help me understand what are the reasons for supporting the railroad proposal. Does it do you understand the concerns that some of the constituents.

[Jeff Leal]: Well, first of all, I may have a slightly different view than the warden has on a nation building project. When you look at the population from Toronto to Quebec City, 18 million people, representing 44% of Canada's population. So that's a that's a pretty big swath of population. And within that, in that corridor, we have 30 colleges and universities. The home of 700,000 students in that area. So when I look at Vankleek Hill, which I visited in eastern Ontario, you know, when you look at from a medical educational perspective, this for me, this urban rural divide doesn't exist because if you have a potential medical problem or you want your family members to get access to 30 colleges and universities, you know, there's going to be an opportunity through this high speed train. And remember, during the construction period, 5000 jobs are going to be created. And I know in my hometown and Bonnie's hometown, our general region, we have the Kawarthas Trades and Skills centre is going to be training a lot of these people to, to give futures for a lot of citizens. In our part of Ontario. You're absolutely correct. I had the great privilege of being Ontario's a minister from 2013 to 2018. I'm very sensitive about about protecting farmland. But first of all, we need to select a corridor. And when you look at soil profiles, both on the northern corridor and the southern corridor, we have to take that into into consideration. As the federal government has committed. In a recent meeting I had with the Federal Transport Minister, Minister McKinnon, in Peterborough, to talk about the comprehensive Government of Canada environmental assessment that will be done on whatever corridor is chosen. And to remember, from a climate change perspective, electric trains are zero emission. So from that broad public policy, this fits rather well.

[Jeyan]: I do have to ask for our viewers. You know, when we talk about the north and south corridor, we're talking the south one is closer to Belleville and Kingston. We're talking about the northern one, we're talking about Havelock and so forth. Is would there be a preference between those two at the moment? If you're looking at those two routes.

[Bonnie Clark]: As far as preference? No, but excuse me, I want to come back. When and just justify why we are not in support. So there are two two models. I will say one is the viaduct model which is the elevated version, right. And one is the berm. And the one that's being presented is the berm model. And that's where berms on each side and the train in the middle that goes through environmentally sensitive, certainly sensitive land. It cuts off certainly wildlife corridors. It severs communities and farms. And that's why certainly my option personally would be the viaduct model that would not sever those communities. When I talk to my urban friends and tell them that, you know, if you are dead ending roads, it's not only businesses that are impacted, it's the municipal services that certainly cost more. It is our 911 responses as well. We have volunteer firefighters in the county, all in Peterborough County. All of our fire halls are south of the corridor. Dead ending roads means that we have to do different. Certainly plans as far as responding to different areas in the county. So that is the concern. It's not that we are against the project. Certainly there are advantages. I would say procurement, local work, you know, access to health care. But in saying that, that corridor from Ottawa to Peterborough certainly will benefit on the initial and the building, you know, but then they're left with the with a community that's only physically as divided and changed forever.

[Jeyan]: So with that being said, north or South, if you had to pick a corridor.

[Jeff Leal]: Alto are going through that analysis right now. They started doing their their field studies on the Ottawa to Montreal. My preference looking at it would be in terms of potential impacts to look at the northern corridor, but I'd certainly defer to the engineering team to make that final determination.

[Jeyan]: All right. I do want to ask I want to move away from sort of the agriculture, and I want to talk about who this benefits in terms of the riders. Do you believe this railway only benefits urban riders passing through to get to cities? Because I know anecdotally, but a lot of people have frustrations with the current rail corridor that's going east. It is a well known frustration for a lot of people, and we know people who are visiting families as well. Do. Is this only for urban writers? Do you view this as not necessarily a divide between urban and rural, but is this for everyone?

[Bonnie Clark]: Well, I think there's part of the concern is the feasibility of this. We certainly look at the history around Maribel Pickering. We know the lands were released from Pickering last year, 53 years later. And so that the scepticism arise from that. I have asked both the Minister and certainly Alto staff, the CIO for a business plan have not yet received a business plan. I've also asked if there has been certainly economic development study for eastern Ontario have not seen that. So when you say who who is going to ride this? You know, what are the benefits? I think those studies are very pertinent to justify the $60 billion cost. In saying that, as I said before, I think there is a tourism component that will benefit where there is a station. So certainly I think our our certainly tourist operators in the county will benefit. I think people that are coming into Toronto for appointments, health appointments, coming in for different events. Certainly I can see that as a benefit. But in saying that our communities, rural communities cannot be left divided.

[Jeyan]: I will mention you say 60 billion. That's on the low end could also 60 to 90 billion. I want to pick up on something that Mayor Leal had mentioned about the sort of the the economic opportunities here at one point in 2025. We know the city of Peterborough's unemployment rate was about 10%, the second highest in Ontario. Do you see, as we mentioned geographically, you're just around there. This is an opportunity for members in your community. For jobs, we're talking 50,000 potentially, is what Aalto is saying.

[Bonnie Clark]: Well, absolutely. For procurement, for locally, I see that as a benefit. Certainly the jobs as well. Initially, what will the spinoff be? I'm certainly there will be. So that is an opportunity. As I say, we are for this project. It is just not when we could do the elevated version and therefore have those certainly pathways through and leave our communities whole. That is what we are lobbying for.

[Jeyan]: When we talk about sort of the opportunities there. Well, let's talk about increased revenue. What does that mean for Peterborough if this if this gets built.

[Jeff Leal]: Well, and frankly, we're getting a lot of calls now, people who want to make the move to Peterborough, the city of Peterborough and beyond. I mean, we're looking at choosing a station. We've already started preliminary work conversations with Aalto in the southeast corner, commonly referred to the Cold Springs area in Peterborough. And one of the reasons why we looked at that is because that can become the the transportation hub for the region, ease of getting people in and out, the criteria set forth by Aalto is 40ms station. That means about ten acres, and I certainly see it as an en route type station, offering a whole wide range of services to people coming in. We have seen part of the business plan by Aalto, where they believe they can control and grow the passenger usage up to 24 million passengers by the year 2041, and that is an incredible story in itself. Again, 30 colleges and universities within this corridor. And I know, as I've been travelling over the years, eastern Ontario, the ability to get access of what I call the Big Five hospitals on University Avenue in Toronto is pretty important, or vice versa, to get access to a wonderful medical infrastructure in the city of Montreal. So we're all going to benefit from Aalto.

[Jeyan]: There's going to be it's going to be a few years before shovels hit the ground. So I want to know what what would you like to see change about the proposal before you potentially agree with it?

[Bonnie Clark]: First of all, the consultation process, we are getting certainly mixed messages. First of all, the station I was told at at the one open house that it was to be within a kilometre of the boundary of the city. Then I was told it was not. So. Those mixed messages. We have to be more transparent, get the facts out, narrow the corridor down so we know exactly where it is going. And to certainly talk then about the impacts. Now in saying that, and I will say to Mayor Leal, the airport is in the county, I would think twinning that with the station would be very feasible. It is on the corridor of of the 115 and highway 28. And that makes more sense to me as a hub, certainly to draw up from the port Hope area, which is expanding as well. So I think there has to be each municipality, there has to be a wholesome, robust transparency. And that when we do ask questions that we are not just heard. Sometimes I feel and I've had several meetings that it's a check box. Got it. And that our concerns aren't being addressed. And also, I want to stress let's do the right model. What is the best practice? Is it the viaduct? Well, do it right. If you know the answer is it's too costly, then I would say narrow it down and do the right thing and leave. You know, when I will come back and say, certainly a nation building project is for everyone and leaves communities whole.

[Jeyan]: With that. Mayor Leo, what do you think needs to happen to bring more people on board with the proposed railway plan?

[Jeff Leal]: Well, first of all, in terms of the station, we made a strategic decision, original plan that was brought forward when Mr. Trudeau was the prime minister, would be a downtown Peterborough location. We said that's not appropriate in terms of serving, serving on a regional basis. So we want to go into the southeast corner. Our staff, our engineering staff have looked at it. We looked at the planning of it. We're pretty committed to doing that. We're going to develop a secondary plan. And our our team has looked to the whole region. And when you look at the access to that point, it's really quite incredible. It's close enough to Peterborough Regional Airport. It just makes sense. We are we're certainly pitching this on economics and potential for the growing of our region as one of the seven stops. When you look at Peterborough and our kind of the counterpart in the province of Québec, a Trois-Rivieres, these two communities, Peterborough Ottawa Riviere, have the best advantage of taking the maximum impact of economic benefits to the broader region. So and someday down the road, in many years to come, I want people to look back and say, look, the politicians and the political leaders of the day made the right decision to bring this project to Ontario and Quebec.

[Jeyan]: This is a conversation that we will probably have a few more times around this table. But Ward and clerk, Mayor Leal, I want to thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I'm sure we will continue. Again. Thank you.

[Jeff Leal]: Thanks so much.

[Jeyan]: Commuters, delivery drivers. A lot of people swear by e-bikes, but others are concerned they pose a safety risk. Now the province is looking to update the rules of the road. Michael Longfield is executive director of Cycle Toronto and fresh from a cycle himself to our studios, joins us here. How are you doing?

[Michael Longfield]: Great, thanks. Yeah. Nice bike ride here.

[Jeyan]: All right. Well, I want to get a lay of the land first with our conversations about e-bike, what is currently considered an e-bike.

[Michael Longfield]: Yeah, it's actually quite a broad definition. And I think this is really one of the challenges that this proposal is looking to address right now within the provincial definition. You know, it's a vehicle that goes under 32km/h. It has a motor that's under 500W. It can look like a bicycle. It can look like a scooter. It can even look like a motorcycle. If it has some kind of pedals, though, it meets within this current rubric of an e-bike.

[Jeyan]: And what are the current rules around where an e-bike can be ridden? Because that's a bit different.

[Michael Longfield]: Yeah it is, and it changes by municipality. So, you know, one municipality might have different rules than others, but of course, we're in Toronto, and broadly speaking, most e-bikes are allowed in most cycling infrastructure. Broadly speaking, there's some slight variations there, but that actually just creates a lot of confusion. And so yeah, ultimately what's kind of coming down the pipe might actually help clarify things a lot.

[Jeyan]: So just to clarify, potentially is allowed in bike lanes and on the road, not on the sidewalks. Yes.

[Michael Longfield]: As nothing on the sidewalks.

[Jeyan]: Exactly. There we go.

[Michael Longfield]: Okay. Unless you're unless you're a kid riding a bicycle, no bikes on the sidewalk.

[Jeyan]: There you go. When it comes to being insured or licensed, is there anything currently that that that requires?

[Michael Longfield]: No, not if it's meeting again, this fairly broad criteria of what the province is considering an e-bike. So again, if it looks like a moped, it looks like a scooter, but it has pedals and is under 32km/h. Technically, you don't need licensing or insurance.

[Jeyan]: For it. All right. Ontario's Ministry of Transportation recently proposed new e-bike regulations. First off, what do you think overall in terms of what they're proposing?

[Michael Longfield]: I mean, this might be a bit shocking given where cycle Toronto and we recently took the provincial government to court over its attempt to rip out bike lanes. But we're actually quite supportive of what the ministry is proposing here. I think it's a very good grounding in terms of helping, I think both consumers and the general public and industry align on what is an e-bike.

[Jeyan]: All right. And so what's the changes? What is the what would what would the definition of an e-bike look like under these?

[Michael Longfield]: Yeah. So some of the things would stay similar. The current speed limit of 32km/h, the current motor restriction to 500W. But one of the big differences they're proposing is actually including some basically some physical descriptors to better describe, say, an e-bike between an E moped or a low speed motorcycle. So within the new definitions, you know, an e-bike would require an adjustable saddle. It would require no footrest. It would specifically require working pedals and or a hand crank. And so with this it would better differentiate, you know, a lot of these moped style vehicles that currently do meet the definition, but would exclude them from the new definition of a so-called power assisted vehicle.

[Jeyan]: And insurance as well.

[Michael Longfield]: So not insurance on, on the bicycle style ones. So, so things that would still qualify as power assisted vehicles, I.e. e-bikes would not require insurance, but those other things that are no longer. So the moped scooters, low speed motorcycles, those would potentially require a licensing and insurance. They would basically need to meet a federal standard for a motor vehicle.

[Jeyan]: Okay. Now with that, you know, one of the things is we've seen a lot of these e-bikes over the years. Licence and insurance is quite expensive. And I am curious, what does that mean for gig workers who use e-bikes who are often precariously employed? What does that mean for them? Because this does set up sort of a two tier system in a way.

[Michael Longfield]: Yeah, it does. And I think one of the things that's good about the proposal is they are suggesting a kind of year long period before the enforcement would go into effect. So potentially gives people some time to either, you know, get that licensing, get that insurance or transition to a different style of vehicle. I do think that it's been a bit of the Wild West in this. And, you know, MTO has maybe been lagging behind where the industry has been. And, you know, a lot of people, especially gig workers, have bought vehicles in good faith. And, you know, certainly myself, I rely on, on food delivery. It's really important for local businesses. It's a big part of our economy. And so there is a potential downside here. But at the same time, the status quo was not tenable. And so I think the MTO moving the direction they are in proposing these regulations is probably the right way to move forward on this.

[Jeyan]: Do you think people who are in this conversation right now, when it comes to e-bikes, are like, well, this doesn't really pertain to me. I don't really use bike lanes. I don't really use e-bikes. You know, I've had maybe perhaps some bad experiences, but really this changes a lot of things. As you mentioned, you know, you know, what people use in terms of food couriers, in terms of all of that, do we have a better, broader sense as to what sort of a ripple effect this will have?

[Michael Longfield]: I think it'll have a pretty big impact. You know, certainly e-bikes in themselves have really been a game changer, especially since the pandemic. You know, we talked about the fact that I biked here. I came on a bike share e-bike. You know, this trip wouldn't have been possible up Yonge Street. You know, that steep hill getting ready for the studio? You know, I probably wouldn't have done it on a conventional bike. And so it really can open up a lot of trips for people, people with disabilities, seniors as well, for a lot of folks as well, like an e-cargo bike can replace a car. It's not necessarily, you know, going to transition all your trips by bike, but it can really open up new possibilities. And so I think, you know, these regulations are really doing an important job of helping, you know, basically helping Toronto catch up to where the industry is and help unlock this for more people while again, ensuring it's clearer to consumers and end users what is or isn't an e-bike. I think a lot of the concern that we might hear, especially on both sides of the political spectrum, about, you know, this kind of like air quotes, bike menace. A lot of these vehicles are technically legal and are already meeting provincial standards. And so by tightening those standards and providing better regulatory clarity, I think it will make it more straightforward for all road users.

[Jeyan]: Does that make enforcement a bit easier?

[Michael Longfield]: I think it does. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we found is and we've done this, you know, kind of quiz with elected officials, with police officers, even with gig workers, is sort of showing picture people, pictures of vehicles and saying, is this legal or not? And you actually can't tell by looking at things. A lot of things that look like motorcycles technically meet the standard of e-bikes, a lot of things that look like bicycles aren't legal either because they have much more powerful motors or much faster. So again, these types of regulations will make it a little bit easier to be able to look at something and know where it should go or not. And same thing too when you're buying things like knowing, I think right now people are buying things in good faith. The industry isn't very well regulated. I think that's something we need the federal government to step in on, but it'll help consumers as well, sort of know, like, oh, right. This is looks more like an e-bike. It's meeting these various criteria. I know I can be pretty confident I'm going to be able to use this on Toronto streets and sidewalks or not sidewalks and on bike lanes.

[Jeyan]: Well, you talk about the quiz. I am curious what other things is, is, you know, cycle tio doing in sort of educating riders about e-bikes.

[Michael Longfield]: Yeah. So we've been doing some really great engagement sessions, working with the biking lawyer and bike brigade, having sessions with gig workers to kind of let them know about, you know, where their vehicle may or may not be legal, letting them know the rules of the road. The feedback on that's been really great. And I think for us, it's confirmed that, again, people aren't doing things to try to skirt the rules. It's that the rules themselves are quite vague and just relying on enforcement on the end user really isn't a solution. We need industry to be better aligned. We need the federal government involved. You know, one of the things too, that I think is really missing from the provincial proposal, our standards around battery safety standards, you know, there is a lot of concern about, you know, the risk of e-bikes on our roads. But the biggest danger from our perspective is around battery fires. I think Fire Chief Jessup has said it's one of the biggest causes of fires in Toronto, and it's really only the federal government that can provide that level of standards. And so Health Canada is currently doing some work around lithium battery safety standards that currently won't apply to bicycles. And so one of the things we're hoping the province will do is continue to work with the feds to provide those standards to e-bikes as well.

[Jeyan]: Michael, I really appreciate it. This was quite insightful. Might get me on a on an e-bike one of these days. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

[Michael Longfield]: Thank you so much.

[Jeyan]: I'm Jeyan. Thanks for watching The Rundown. Have you ever ridden an e-bike? If so, what do you think? Let me know. Send an email to rundown@TVO.org or leave us a comment on YouTube. Until then, I'll see you tomorrow.