华盛顿枪击案引发的移民政策巨变
我是《纽约时报》的迈克尔·布巴罗,这里是《每日》节目。
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From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bubaro. This is the daily.
假期期间,悲剧降临。
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Heartbreak over the holidays.
在白宫附近伏击袭击中被枪击的两名国民警卫队(National Guard: 美国各州军事力量,在州长指挥下执行任务,也可被联邦征召)成员中,有一人已经去世。
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One of the two National Guard members shot in the ambush attack near the White House has passed away.
现在,嫌疑人——一名来自阿富汗的移民,在华盛顿特区枪杀了国民警卫队的两名成员。
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Now, the suspect, in the days since, an immigrant from Afghanistan gunned down two members of the National Guard in Washington, DC.
针对这起枪击案,特朗普总统正在下令审查所有在美国的阿富汗国民,并暂停了所有庇护决定。
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In response to that shooting, President Trump is ordering a review of all Afghan nationals in the US and halted, says he has halted all asylum decisions after the ambush attack on the two national guard members.
特朗普总统已下令对移民进行全面新一轮的打击。
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President Trump has ordered a sweeping new crackdown on immigration.
他还承诺驱逐数百万已在美国的移民,撤销他们的合法身份。
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He's also promising to expel millions of immigrants already here revoking their legal status.
这几乎让整个移民系统无一幸免。他声称已准备好驱逐任何“对美国不是净资产”的人,并威胁要停止来自所有“第三世界国家”的移民。
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That has left almost no corner of the system untouched. He claimed he's ready to expel anyone who is quote not a net asset to the United States. And he threatened to end immigration from quote all third world countries.
今天,我的同事哈米德·阿齐兹将讲述枪手来到美国的过程,以及特朗普政府的广泛回应。
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CBS today, my colleague Huh al Aziz on the shooters journey to the United States and the Trump administration's wide-ranging response.
今天是12月1日星期一。哈米德,我们之所以转向你,是因为上周在华盛顿市中心发生的可怕枪击案,现在已经演变为对美国移民体系的一系列影响深远的改变,而你负责为《纽约时报》报道这一领域。你认为这些改变影响有多深远?
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It's Monday, December 1st. Huh, we are turning to you because what began as a horrific shooting in downtown Washington last week has now become a set of far-reaching changes to the US immigration system, which you cover for the Times. Just how farreaching would you say these changes are?
哈米德:是的,你知道,即使对于一个已经改写了所有移民处理规则的政府来说,我们过去几天所看到的也令人瞩目。他们已经阻止了人们进入这个国家、留在美国的途径,同时也在回头审查那些已经在美国获得身份的人的记录。在我报道移民问题期间,我从未见过这样的情况。
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Yeah, you know, even for an administration that has rewritten all the rules on how to handle immigration, what we've seen in just the last couple days has been remarkable. They have blocked pathways for people to come to this country, to remain in the country, and at the same time are going back and reviewing the records of people who are have already gained status in the States. I haven't seen anything like this during my time covering immigration.
迈克尔:我们将在这次对话中详细讨论这些影响,因为它非常像是美国未来移民政策的模板。这似乎很大程度上取决于枪手是谁、他来自哪里以及他如何进入美国这些具体情况。所以,我们来谈谈这个。
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That fallout, which we will discuss in detail in this conversation because it very much feels like a template for the future of immigration policy in the US. It feels like it very much hinges on the specific of who the shooter in this case was, where he came from, the circumstances of how he came into the US. So, let's talk about that.
枪手的背景与美国在阿富汗的行动
哈米德:是的,枪手的名字叫拉赫曼努拉·拉肯瓦尔(Rahmanula Lakenwal)。
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Yeah. The shooter's name is Rahmanula Lakenwal.
他是在美国入侵阿富汗的时期长大的。事实上,9/11事件发生时他只有5岁。当然,我们知道美国在9/11后不久就进入了阿富汗。在那段时间里,美国严重依赖当地部队。
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He grew up in Afghanistan during this time period in which the United States had invaded. You know, in fact, he was only 5 years old when 9/11 happened. And of course, we know that the United States came into Afghanistan shortly afterward.
对美国在阿富汗的存在至关重要的一个关键团体就是零号部队(Zero Unit: 一个由美国中情局支持的阿富汗准军事组织,负责打击塔利班)。
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During that time, the United States relied heavily on local troops. And one of the key groups that was essential to the United States presence in Afghanistan was this group called Zero Unit.
迈克尔:零号部队是什么?
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Zero Unit. What is that?
哈米德:他们基本上是一个由中情局(CIA: Central Intelligence Agency,美国中央情报局)支持的组织,负责追捕塔利班成员,他们受过高度训练,经过美国政府的严格审查,本质上向美国政府汇报,并追捕塔利班权力结构中的关键领导人。
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They were basically a CIA backed group that hunted Taliban members were really highly trained, highly vetted by the US government, essentially reported to the US government and went after key leaders in the Taliban power structure.
迈克尔:可以算是美国政府和军队在阿富汗的“矛尖”?
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Kind of the tip of the spear when it comes to the US government and military in Afghanistan.
哈米德:没错。拉肯瓦尔先生就是这个团体的一员。他被中情局招募加入这个部队,他的兄弟也是这个团体的关键领导人。所以作为一个家庭,他们都深深地卷入了这个对美国在阿富汗维持安全至关重要的组织。
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Exactly. And and Mr. Lock and wall was a part of that group. He was recruited by the CIA to join this unit and his brother was a key leader in the group as well. So as a family, you know, they were really inshed in this organization that was essential to the United States ability to maintain security in Afghanistan.
但人权组织批评了零号部队的工作。他们声称零号部队的做法超出了必要范围,称他们为“敢死队”。他们进行了法外处决(extrajudicial killings: 未经法律程序,由政府或其代理人进行的杀戮),杀害平民。这些都是当时对这个团体提出的指控。像拉肯瓦尔这样的阿富汗人,在对其他阿富汗人实施这种所谓的暴行时,他们的心理舒适度如何?
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But human rights organizations criticized the work of this zero unit group. They alleged that zero unit went further than was necessary and they called them death squads. They were conducting extrajudicial killings, killing civilians. These are all allegations that were made during this time about this group. And how comfortable were people like Lock and Wall Afghans in carrying out this kind of alleged brutality against other Afghans?
迈克尔:是的。我们了解到,拉肯瓦尔先生本人对他的团体在阿富汗采取的行动感到非常挣扎。
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Yeah. What we've learned is that Mr. Lockenwal specifically really struggled with the actions that his group undertook in Afghanistan.
他向一位在阿富汗的朋友表达了这一点,这位朋友实际上与我们的一位同事谈过,这位朋友说拉肯瓦尔先生正在经历一些心理健康问题,在他的描述中,这显然是一个因零号部队的经历而受到创伤的人。
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And he expressed this to a friend in Afghanistan who actually spoke with one of our colleagues and this friend said that Mr. Lock and Wall was going through some mental health issues and really in his telling this was clearly somebody who was traumatized from his experience as a part of zero unit.
但尽管如此,他一直留在部队中,直到2021年塔利班接管国家。
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But despite that he remained in this unit up until the Taliban took over the country in 2021.
美国撤军与枪手来到美国
迈克尔:那么,请我们回到那个戏剧性的时刻。当美国宣布撤军时,拉肯瓦尔发生了什么?我们都记得,撤军导致塔利班席卷全国,逼近喀布尔。阿富汗军队在几天内崩溃,美军以一种我认为我们都会同意的混乱且有些屈辱的方式撤离。
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Well, bring us to that very dramatic moment. What happens to lock and wall when the US announces it's going to withdraw, which as we all remember then brings the Taliban through the country toward Kbble. The Afghan military collapses in days and the US military flees in what I think we can all agree is a kind of chaotic and somewhat humiliating withdrawal.
哈米德:对于拉肯瓦尔和其他曾密切帮助美国政府的阿富汗人来说,他们突然成为了塔利班的目标。拜登政府面临着巨大的压力,不能抛弃那些冒着生命危险保护美国政府的人。
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For Lock and Wall and other Afghans who closely helped the United States government, suddenly they become targets for the Taliban. And there's this incredible pressure on the Biden administration to not leave behind those people who risk their lives in protecting the United States government.
迈克尔:本质上,他们是现在重新掌权的塔利班的叛徒。
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Essentially, they are traitors to the now re-empowered Taliban.
哈米德:是的。拉肯瓦尔先生和其他零号部队成员是第一批逃离阿富汗并被美国政府带到美国寻求保护的人。
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Yeah. And Mr. Lockenwall along with other members of the zero unit were among the first people to flee Afghanistan and be brought by the United States government to America for protection.
迈克尔:所以他是由拜登政府带到美国的。他的情况如何?在他抵达美国之前,经历了怎样的审查程序?
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So he's brought to the United States by the Biden administration. What are his circumstances like and what kind of vetting process occurs before he even gets to the US?
哈米德:他作为“盟友欢迎行动”(Operation Allies Welcome: 拜登政府为撤离阿富汗盟友及其家属而设立的计划)的一部分来到美国。作为这项计划的一部分,拜登政府设立了多层审查。他们收集了这些人的生物识别信息,并通过美国数据库运行他们的信息,以查找任何潜在的恐怖主义记录、犯罪记录或任何潜在的负面信息。
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So he comes to the United States as part of a program called Operation Allies Welcome. And as part of this program, the Biden administration set up layers of vetting. They collected biometrics from these people and they ran their information through US databases for any potential terrorism hits, criminal hits, any potentially derogatory information.
然后,当这些个人来到美国时,国土安全部(Department of Homeland Security: 负责美国国内安全和边境保护的联邦部门)通过机场的海关和边境保护局(Customs and Border Protection: 负责边境安全、贸易和移民执法的联邦机构)官员进行了另一层审查。
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And then when these individuals came to the United States, the Department of Homeland Security conducted another layer of vetting by uh Customs and Border Protection officers at the airports.
迈克尔:所以相当严格。
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So pretty rigorous.
哈米德:相当严格。但同时,我认为重要的是要注意,美国国务院的监察长发现,尽管进行了审查,拜登政府仍允许两名潜在的国家安全威胁人员进入该国。这是一个非常仓促的过程。这不是一个经过数年、数月计划的事情。所以,这个计划存在明显的问题。
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Pretty rigorous. But at the same time, I think it's important to note that the AY's inspector general found that the Biden administration had allowed two people who were potential national security threats to enter the country despite that vetting. This was a really hurried process. This wasn't something that was planned years in the making, months in the making. So, there were clear issues with this program.
拉肯瓦尔先生作为第一批抵达美国的人之一,于2021年9月通过这项计划迅速来到美国。他在华盛顿州贝灵厄姆定居,这是一个靠近加拿大边境的小镇,他试图在那里找工作。他是一名送货司机,与妻子和五个孩子住在一个公寓大楼里,那里是那些运气不佳的人试图重建生活的地方。但尽管他面临这些挑战,在特朗普政府时期,他于4月获得了庇护(asylum: 一种国际保护形式,允许个人留在其原籍国之外,因为他们害怕迫害)。所以他是在拜登政府时期进入美国,但正式获得庇护是在特朗普政府时期。
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Um, and Mr. Lockamal comes really quickly as is one of the first groups of people to arrive in the United States as part of this program in September 2021. He settles down in Bellingham, Washington, uh a town that's near the Canadian border, and he's trying to find jobs there. He's a delivery driver. He's staying with his uh wife and five children in a apartment complex that is a place where people who are down on their luck are trying to rebuild their lives. But despite this kind of challenging circumstances for him in April during the Trump administration, he gains asylum. So he enters the US under the Biden administration, but he is officially granted asylum under the Trump administration.
迈克尔:是的。你知道,拜登政府根据一项名为“假释”(parole: 一种临时入境许可,允许外国人在特定条件下进入美国,通常不提供永久居留权)的权力将这些人从阿富汗带过来。这是一种只持续几年的临时身份。它没有为这些阿富汗人提供永久留在美国的机会。那些阿富汗人需要自己想办法留下来。
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Yeah. You know, the Biden administration brought these people over from Afghanistan under a power known as parole. This is a temporary status that only lasts a few years. It did not provide these Afghans with a chance to stay in the country permanently. that was on Afghans individually in the country to figure out a way to stay here.
迈克尔:在这种情况下,他找到了办法。
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And in this case, he figured it out.
哈米德:是的,对他来说,获得庇护显然是个好消息,这意味着有机会留在美国,获得绿卡(green card: 允许非美国公民在美国永久居住和工作的身份),获得美国公民身份。他正走在这条路上。但接下来我们知道的是,他决定从华盛顿州贝灵厄姆开车横穿全国到华盛顿特区,在那里他发现自己身处市中心,离白宫一两个街区的地方。这是一个人来人往的区域,有很多餐馆和咖啡馆。他走在公交车站附近的人行道上,在那里他遇到了两名来自西弗吉尼亚州的国民警卫队成员:20岁的莎拉·贝克拉姆(Sarah Beckram)和24岁的安德鲁·沃尔夫(Andrew Wolf)。
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Yeah, this was clearly good news for him to get asylum, to have a chance to remain in the United States, to gain a green card, to gain US citizenship. He was on that pathway. But the next thing we know is that he decides to drive from Bellingham, Washington, all across the country to Washington DC where he finds himself in the downtown of the city about a block or two from the White House. This is an area that has a lot of people going through it and there are uh restaurants and coffee shops. and he is walking on the sidewalk near a bus stop where he comes across two National Guard members from West Virginia, Sarah Beckram, a 20-year-old, and Andrew Wolf, a 24 year old.
迈克尔:嗯。
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Mhm.
哈米德:拉肯瓦尔先生决定拔出枪,向他们两人多次开枪。在枪击中,他自己也中弹倒地。
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And Mr. Lockenwald decides to pull out his gun and shoot both of them multiple times. As part of that gunfire, he himself takes on shots, right? and he is down on the ground.
这些枪声被《纽约时报》的同事们听到。我们的办公室离枪击现场非常近。仅仅一天后,我们得知其中一名警卫队成员贝克拉姆小姐因枪伤去世。突然间,所有这些戏剧性事件都碰撞在一起:特朗普憎恨的“永远的战争”——阿富汗战争,以及他在美国各地城市部署国民警卫队。这一切都碰撞在一起,这是一个非常奇怪的时刻。
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These shots were heard by colleagues here at the New York Times. Our bureau is very close to the site of this shooting. And just a day later, we found out that one of the guard members, Miss Beckram, had died from her gunshot wounds. And suddenly, all of these dramas are colliding. the war in Afghanistan which Trump loathed as a forever war and his use of national guard across American cities. It's all colliding and it's a very strange moment.
是的,确实如此。你可以看到,对于特朗普总统来说,这与他个人息息相关。
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Yeah, definitely. And and you can see how for President Trump this is something that he personally is tied to.
对他来说,我认为这确实证实了他过去提出的许多主张,以及他最糟糕的担忧:一个来自遥远国家的移民会来到这里,并在白宫附近枪击两名美国军人。
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And for him, I think it really confirms a lot of the claims that he's made in the past. A lot of his worst fears that an immigrant from a far-flung country would come here and and shoot two US military members near the White House.
我认为这确实是他及其顾问们认为有理由对移民系统进行打击的原因,这种打击是我们今年从未见过的。
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And I think that's really reason for him and in his mind and his advisers's mind to undertake a crackdown on the immigration system. That's unlike anything that we've seen this year.
我们马上回来。
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We'll be right back.
特朗普政府的回应与批评
迈克尔:那么,哈米德,请描述一下自枪击案发生以来移民系统发生了什么变化,以及特朗普政府是如何解释这些行动的。
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So, Hammed, describe what happens to the immigration system in the days since this shooting and how the Trump administration has explained those actions.
哈米德:据特朗普政府高级官员称,一名29岁的阿富汗人,在拜登政府灾难性撤离阿富汗后,通过“盟友欢迎行动”进入美国。这就是发生的事情。
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and the telling of top Trump administration officials. A 29-year-old Afghan who entered the United States under Biden's Operation Allies welcome a program following the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. This is what happens.
包括美国检察官珍妮·皮罗(Janine Piro)在内。
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Including US attorney Janine Piro.
珍妮·皮罗:这个人之所以在这个国家,只有一个原因:未能以任何方式、形式审查这个人以及无数其他人。
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This individual is in this country for one reason and one reason alone. the failure to vet in any way, shape, or form this individual and countless others.
联邦调查局(FBI: Federal Bureau of Investigation,美国联邦调查局)局长卡什·帕特尔(Kash Patel)说:
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The FBI director Cash Patel,
卡什·帕特尔:他是在2021年9月由拜登政府通过那些臭名昭著的航班运送进来的,当时大家都在谈论,没人知道谁进来了,没人知道任何关于他的事情。
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he was flown in by the Biden administration in September 2021 on those infamous flights that everybody was talking about. Nobody knew who was coming in. Nobody knew anything about it. His status was
哈米德:特朗普总统本人表示,这次枪击是拜登政府一系列失败的结果。不仅在于他们结束战争的方式,特朗普总统经常批评这一点,还在于他们让这些阿富汗人,包括拉肯瓦尔先生,在没有他们所说的必要审查的情况下进入美国。
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and President Trump himself, this shooting was the result of a series of Biden administration failures. Not only in the way that they ended the war, which President Trump has often criticized, but in the way that they let these Afghans, including Mr. Lackenwall, into the country without, in their words, the necessary vetting.
迈克尔:白宫在批评审查程序时,有没有指出任何具体问题?因为正如你之前在对话中告诉我们的,最终批准庇护的是特朗普政府。
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Does the White House point to anything specific as they're critiquing the vetting process? Because of course, as you told us a little bit earlier in this conversation, it's the Trump administration that grants that final asylum.
哈米德:是的,他们没有具体指出任何问题。当特朗普总统被问及,你知道,他们在他的政府时期于4月授予这个人庇护权时,
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Yeah. No, there's nothing specifically that they're pointing to. And when President Trump was asked about, you know, this idea that they granted this man asylum during his administration in April,
迈克尔:没错。
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right,
哈米德:他没有回答这个问题。他再次回到了这个观点,你知道,是拜登把他带过来的,一旦人们被带到这个国家,他们就无能为力了。他基本上就是这么说的。
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he wouldn't engage with that answer. And again, he returned to this idea that, you know, Biden brought him and once people are brought to this country, there's not much that they can do. That's essentially what he said.
特朗普政府的移民政策收紧措施
迈克尔:明白了。那么,我们现在来看看特朗普过去几天对移民系统采取的打击措施,并真正了解其细节。
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Understood. So, let's now turn to the crackdown that Trump has undertaken to the immigration system over the past few days and really understand the details of it.
哈米德:是的。基本上,在几天之内,特朗普政府采取了一系列具有巨大影响的行动。
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Yeah. Basically, in a matter of days, the Trump administration takes a series of actions that have just massive implications.
首先,国土安全部宣布暂停所有阿富汗移民提交的移民申请。所以,对于在美国的阿富汗人来说,这意味着他们寻求绿卡、美国公民身份的能力被暂停了。
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At first, the Department of Homeland Security announces a pause on all immigration applications filed by Afghan immigrants. So, for Afghans in the United States, this means a pause on their ability to seek a green card, US citizenship.
对他们来说,他们长期留在这个国家的能力现在被搁置了。
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For them, their ability to stay in this country long term is now on hold.
迈克尔:所有这些都被暂时关闭了,也许是暂时,但确实关闭了。
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All that's just being shut down temporarily perhaps, but shut down.
哈米德:是的,没错。他们在此基础上进一步行动。他们说将审查所有在拜登政府时期批准的庇护申请。他们将要,
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Yes, exactly. And they build on that. They say that they will review all asylum applications that were granted during the Biden administration. They're going,
迈克尔:无论寻求庇护者来自哪个国家?
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no matter which country the asylum seekers from,
哈米德:所有这些。他们将回去查看这些申请,并找出这些批准是否存在任何问题,再次基于拜登政府用他们的话说“审查不足”的观点。所以突然间,我们现在谈论的暂停,不仅是针对那些寻求阿富汗庇护的人,还可能涉及成千上万来自世界任何国家寻求庇护的人。
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all of it. They're going to go back and look at those applications and figure out if there were any issues with those grants and again building on this idea that the Biden administration in their words did not do enough vetting. So suddenly we're now talking about a pause not just in those seeking asylum from Afghanistan but potentially thousands or tens of thousands of people seeking asylum from any country in the world.
迈克尔:没错。所以他们要回去查看这些记录,他们甚至更进一步。他们决定,实际上,我们将审查所有来自特朗普总统已经禁止旅行到美国的国家的绿卡持有者。你知道,这些国家包括伊朗、厄立特里亚、苏丹等。所以,那些已经在美国、已经经历了很多程序的人,现在他们的申请正在被审查。从某种意义上说,这是一种回顾性的审查,针对那些在某些情况下已经获得绿卡的人。他们基本上是在说旧系统是可疑的。所以,我们将重新审查你的绿卡。这种可能性是肯定存在的。他们将回去查看可能数十万份记录。
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Exactly. So they're going back to look at those records and they take it even a step further. They decide that actually we're going to review all green card holders from countries that President Trump already banned from travel to the United States. You know, these were countries like Iran, Aritria, Sudan, and others. So, people who are already in the United States who've gone through a lot of process now have their applications under review. In a sense, this is a retrospective look back at those who have in some cases already been granted their green cards. They're basically saying the old system is suspect. So, we will kind of reopen your green card. There is definitely that potential. They're going to go back and look at potentially hundreds of thousands of records.
迈克尔:哇。
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Wow.
哈米德:一次大规模的审查。我们不知道这将如何进行,也不知道他们将如何实施,但他们已经宣布他们会这样做。然后在周五,在他们已经宣布将审查所有在2021年至2024年间获得庇护的人之后,现在那些已经在美国试图获得庇护的人,他们的申请也都被搁置了。这真的是在针对整个庇护系统。同一天,国务院宣布不再向阿富汗国民发放签证,切断了阿富汗人进入美国的另一条途径。事实上,我们获得的一份国务院电报详细说明,那些已经获得并打印好签证,并准备分发给阿富汗人的签证,都需要被销毁。
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A massive review. We don't know how this is going to take shape and how they're going to do this, but they've announced that they will do this. And then on Friday after they'd already announced that they were going to review all the people that had gotten asylum between 2021 and 2024, but now people already in the United States trying to gain asylum in the process, those applications are now on hold as well. Really going after the entire asylum system. And on that same day, the State Department announces that there will be no more visas for Afghan nationals, cutting off another way for Afghans to enter the United States. And in fact, a State Department cable that we obtained detailed how Afghan nationals who already had their visas granted and printed and and were going to be dispersed to those Afghans, those needed to be destroyed.
迈克尔:哇。所以他们正在采取一切可能的措施来针对阿富汗人,不仅在美国,也在国外。
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Wow. So they're taking every step possible to target Afghans, not only in America, but abroad.
哈米德:而且不仅仅是你说的阿富汗人,而是所有寻求庇护或绿卡的人。在非常真实的意义上,感觉整个系统,即在政治或经济环境下给予外国人美国庇护的系统,都暂停了。
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And not just from what you said, Afghans, but really anyone seeking asylum or a green card. In a very real sense, it feels like the entire system of giving foreigners refuge in the US for political or economic circumstances is on pause.
哈米德:是的。你知道,这里真正引人注目的是这个想法:是的,我们将暂停许多人进入美国,但我们也将回头审查那些已经在美国获得某种身份的人。我们也将回头查看这些记录。所以,这不仅是前瞻性的,也是回顾性的。
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Yeah. You know what's really remarkable here is this idea that yes, we're going to pause a bunch of people from entering the United States, but we're also going to go back and we're going to review people who've already obtained a form of status in the United States. We're going to go back and look at those records as well. So, it's not only prospective, but it's retrospective as well.
迈克尔:这个政府是否有法律权力做你所描述的一切?因为它如此全面,如此具有追溯性。
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Does this administration have the legal power to do everything you're describing? because it is so sweeping and so retrospective.
哈米德:是的,这些无疑将导致法律挑战,特别是这种追溯性的做法。这些人已经经历了多层审查、多层面试、与美国政府的广泛互动,如果他们对这些人采取行动,我认为将在美国各地引发法律诉讼。
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Yeah, these will undoubtedly lead to legal challenges especially this idea of going back. These are people who have gone through layers of vetting, layers of interviews, extensive interaction with the US government that if they take action on those people that will lead to, I think, legal action across the United States.
所以,我们必须拭目以待,看看这在我们的法律体系中如何发展。
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So, we're going to have to wait and see how this plays out in our legal system.
美国对阿富汗盟友的承诺与“集体惩罚”
迈克尔:我想暂时回到阿富汗问题,因为尽管这些对我们移民系统的潜在改变如此广泛,但对我来说,这些改变对美国对那些在战争中帮助过美国的阿富汗人所做的承诺意味着什么,这一点尤为突出。就拉肯瓦尔的案例而言,是的,承诺得到了履行,但从特朗普的行动来看,未来对其他阿富汗人将不会兑现承诺。过去几天在社交媒体上有一段非常具有启发性的交流,我想和你讨论一下。它始于《华尔街日报》的一篇社论,这是一个非常保守的社论委员会。我将为你读出他们社论中的内容。
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I want to return for just a moment to Afghanistan because as broad as some of these potential changes to our immigration system are, what stands out to me is what these changes will mean for the future of that promise that the US made to Afghans who helped America in the war. And in the case of Lock andwell, yes, the promise was kept, but it's clear from Trump's actions that the promise won't be kept for anyone else from Afghanistan in the future. And there's a very revealing exchange about this on social media over the past couple of days that I want to discuss with you. It begins with an editorial from the Wall Street Journal, which is a very conservative editorial board. And I'm gonna read you what they wrote in his editorial.
哈米德:好的。
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Okay.
迈克尔:引用:“有些人会说,华盛顿市中心的枪击案意味着美国不应该再接纳像拉肯瓦尔这样的难民,但替代方案是抛弃在战争中帮助过美国人的盟友。”社论接着说:“你可以肯定,美国人将再次在海外作战,我们的军队将需要地面盟友才能成功。社论问道,如果他们认为自己没有出路,有多少人会帮助美国?”基本上,这篇社论问道:“当美国只是把人留在战场上时,会发生什么?”
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Quote, "Some will say that the shooting in downtown Washington means that the United States should never admit refugees like Lock and Wall, but the alternative is abandoning allies who assist Americans in war." And the editorial goes on to say, "You can be sure Americans will fight overseas again, and our troops will need allies on the ground to succeed. How many," the editorial asks, will assist the US if they believe that there will be no exit for them? Basically, this editorial asks, "What happens when the US just leaves people behind on the battlefield?
哈米德:是的。有一个人阅读了这篇社论,并强烈反对,他就是特朗普总统移民打击行动的负责人史蒂文·米勒(Steven Miller)。他在社交媒体上说,引用:“这是大规模移民的巨大谎言。你不仅仅是在输入个人。你是在输入社会。当失败国家跨越边境时,不会发生任何神奇的转变。大规模的移民及其后代会重现他们破碎家园的状况和恐怖。”
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Yeah. And one person who reads this editorial and disagrees with it strongly is the chief of President Trump's immigration crackdown, Steven Miller. He went online on on social media and said, quote, "This is the great lie of mass migration. You are not just importing individuals. You are importing societies. No magic transformation occurs when failed states cross borders. At scale, migrants and their descendants recreate the conditions and terrors of their broken homelands.
迈克尔:你能翻译一下吗?
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Will you just translate that?
哈米德:是的,我的意思是,我认为这条推文的非凡之处在于,米勒不仅针对那些抵达美国的移民本身,他还说他们的孩子也是一种威胁。
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Yeah. I mean, I think what's remarkable about this tweet is that Miller is not only turning to the immigrants themselves who arrive in the United States, but he's saying that their children are a threat as well.
迈克尔:没错。我认为值得一提的是,《华尔街日报》的社论和史蒂文·米勒的言论完全是各说各话,因为社论说:
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Right. And I think it's worth saying just how much the Wall Street Journal editorial and Steven Miller's statements completely talk past each other because the editorial
美国的信誉和我们外交政策的未来要求我们信守对那些为美国冒生命危险的人的承诺。这是我们能够在世界上发挥作用的基础。米勒的声明完全绕过了这一点,他说来自破碎社会的人对美国来说就是一种生存危险。因此,我们不能让他们进来。但米勒的论点完全没有解决的现实是,美国在最初破坏阿富汗方面扮演了重要角色,而且是相当大的角色。
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is saying that American credibility and the future of our foreign policy requires us to keep our commitments to those who risk their lives for the US. That it's foundational to our ability to function in the world. Miller's statement completely bypasses that and says broken people from broken societies are just an existential danger to the US. Therefore, we can't let them in. But what Miller's argument doesn't grapple with at all is the reality that America played a part and a pretty big part in breaking Afghanistan in the first place.
哈米德:是的。对米勒来说,那不是重点。这不是关于美国欠人民和国家什么,而是关于谁对美国有利,谁不利。他认为那些来自失败社会国家的人不值得有机会来到美国。对吗?这是一种公开接受集体惩罚(collective punishment: 对一群人因其中一小部分人的行为而施加惩罚的做法),因为在拉肯瓦尔的案例中,我们清楚地看到一个人,我们不太明白其机制,但在他生命中的某个时刻变得激进化,但他只是成千上万,甚至数万名阿富汗人中的一个,而美国此前曾承诺保护他们并带他们到美国。现在特朗普和史蒂文·米勒说,因为他们中的一个人做了这件事,所以他们中的任何人都不能来美国。
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Yeah. For Miller, that's besides the point. It's not about what America owes people and countries. It's about who's good for the United States and who's not good. People who are from countries that he has deemed to be failed societies do not deserve the opportunity to come to America. Right? It's kind of an open embrace of collective punishment because in Lock and Wall we clearly have someone who and we don't quite understand the mechanics of it but becomes at some point in his life radicalized but he's just one of thousands if not tens of thousands of Afghans who the US previously made a commitment to to protect and bring to the US. and Trump and Steven Miller are now saying because one of them did this thing, none of them can come to the US.
迈克尔:是的,没错。我认为这是对的。
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Yeah, exactly. I think that's right.
哈米德:但我也想指出,就像你提到的集体惩罚这个想法一样。这些帮助过美国军队的阿富汗人得到了退伍军人的支持。
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But I also just want to point out this idea that like like you're mentioning collective punishment. These Afghans who helped the American military have been supported by veterans.
你知道,我曾与退伍军人交谈过,他们亲自尝试将那些帮助过他们的人,翻译员和其他人带到美国,带到安全的地方。我的意思是,阿富汗人帮助美国军人这个情节已经在电影和电视节目中出现过。
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you know I've spoken with veterans who have personally tried to bring those people who helped them translators and others to the United States bring them to safety. I mean the plot point of this idea of Afghans helping American military members has been in movies and shows
而现在,帮助那些在阿富汗帮助过美国军队的阿富汗人的想法,已经结束了。
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and for now this idea of helping Afghans who helped the American military in Afghanistan that's over.
国民警卫队的部署争议
迈克尔:哈米德,最后,我不想完全忽视国民警卫队及其在这件事中的位置。第二名被枪击的警卫队成员仍在医院里情况危急,而国民警卫队在华盛顿的部署仍然是深刻争议的根源。
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Just to end, Hammed, I don't want to entirely lose sight of the National Guard and its place in this story. The second Guardsman who was shot remains in critical condition in the hospital and this deployment of the National Guard in Washington remains a source of really profound controversy.
哈米德:是的。将联邦部队带到城市这个想法,确实遭到了华盛顿特区许多市民的强烈反对。
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Yeah. This idea of bringing the federal forces to the city was really opposed by a lot of citizens in Washington DC.
但在枪击案发生后的几天里,特朗普总统宣布他计划向华盛顿特区增派500名国民警卫队成员。
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But in the days since the shooting, President Trump has announced that he was planning to send 500 more National Guard members to Washington DC.
所以现在,这次部署非但没有因为这次枪击而缩减,反而将因此扩大。
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So now this deployment far from shrinking because of this shooting is now going to expand because of it.
迈克尔:穆罕默德,非常感谢你。我们很感激。
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Muhammad, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me.
激进化原因与毒品战争的矛盾行动
哈米德:周日,国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆(Kristi Noem)告诉全国广播公司新闻(NBC News: 美国一家主要的广播电视网络)称,据称的枪手可能是在移民到美国之后才激进化的。
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On Sunday, the Secretary of Homeland Security, Christy Gnome, told NBC News that the alleged shooter may not have become radicalized until after he immigrated to the United States.
如果这个结论属实,可能会削弱特朗普政府关于拜登政府未能在他抵达美国之前对其进行适当审查的说法。
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That conclusion, if true, could undermine the Trump administration's claims that the Biden administration had failed to properly vet him before he arrived into the country.
我们马上回来。
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We'll be right back.
迈克尔:这是你今天还需要知道的其他事情。过去几天,特朗普总统在打击贩毒集团(drug cartels: 从事非法毒品贸易的犯罪组织)的战争中采取了一系列极其矛盾的行动。特朗普在社交媒体上发帖宣称,委内瑞拉上空及周边空域应被视为关闭,他被指控用毒品淹没美国。这是他对委内瑞拉独裁领导人尼古拉斯·马杜罗(Nicholas Maduro)政权发出的最新威胁。
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Here's what else you need to know today. Over the past few days, President Trump has carried out a series of profoundly contradictory actions in his war against drug cartels. Trump declared in a post on social media that the airspace above and around Venezuela, which he is accused of flooding the US with drugs, should now be considered closed. It was his latest threat against the regime of Venezuela's authoritarian leader, Nicholas Maduro.
但与此同时,特朗普宣布全面赦免洪都拉斯前总统胡安·奥兰多·埃尔南德斯(Juan Orlando Hernandez),他曾在美国联邦法院被判与当地贩毒集团合谋将大量可卡因运入美国。
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But at the same time, Trump announced a full pardon of a former president of Honduras, Juan Orlando Hernandez, who has been convicted in US federal court of conspiring with local drug cartels to bring vast amounts of cocaine into the United States.
与此同时,周日,两党国会议员表示,特朗普政府在加勒比海打击据称运载毒品的船只的行动中可能犯下了战争罪(war crime: 违反战争法的行为)。据《华盛顿邮报》报道,国防部长皮特·赫格斯特(Pete Hgsth)口头下令杀死这些船上的所有人,导致一名美国军事指挥官在9月对最初的空袭幸存者进行了第二次打击,以杀死他们。
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Meanwhile, on Sunday, members of Congress from both parties said that the Trump administration may have committed a war crime in its offensive against boats allegedly carrying drugs in the Caribbean. According to the Washington Post, Defense Secretary Pete Hgsth gave a verbal order to kill everyone aboard such boats, leading a US military commander to carry out a second strike to kill those who had survived an initial air strike back in September.
迈克尔:你认为如果发生了第二次打击以消灭任何幸存者,这是否构成战争罪?
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Do you believe if there was a second strike to eliminate any survivors that that constitutes a war crime?
如果报道属实,我认为这确实如此。我对指挥链中任何越过不应越过的界限的人都表示严重关切。你知道,在水中追杀幸存者,那显然是不合法的。亚利桑那州民主党参议员马克·凯利(Mark Kelly)在有线电视新闻网(CNN: Cable News Network,美国有线电视新闻网)上和俄亥俄州共和党众议员迈克·特纳(Mike Turner)在哥伦比亚广播公司(CBS: Columbia Broadcasting System,美国哥伦比亚广播公司)上都表示,这样的第二次打击将违反战争规则。
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It seems to uh if what has been reported is AC accurate, I've got serious concerns about anybody in that, you know, chain of command stepping over a line that they should never step over. You know, going after survivors in the water, um that is clearly not lawful. Both Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona on CNN and Republican Representative Mike Turner of Ohio on CBS said that such a second strike would violate the rules of war.
迈克尔:显然,如果发生这种情况,那将非常严重,我同意那将是非法行为。特纳表示,《华盛顿邮报》关于第二次打击的报道将成为现有国会调查船只空袭事件的焦点。
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Obviously, if that occurred, that would be be very serious and I agree that that that would would be an illegal act. Turner said that the post reporting on the second strike would become the focus of an existing congressional investigation into the air strikes on the boats.
今天的节目由米歇尔·班贾(Michelle Banja)和穆贾迪(Mujadi)制作。由帕特里夏·威林斯(Patricia Willins)编辑,迈克尔·贝诺瓦(Michael Benois)协助,并由艾丽莎·莫克斯利(Alyssa Moxley)进行工程处理。包含丹·鲍威尔(Dan Powell)、玛丽亚姆·洛萨诺(Mariam Lozano)和黛安·王(Diane Wong)的音乐。
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Today's episode was produced by Michelle Banja and Mujadi. It was edited by Patricia Willins with help from Michael Benois and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. contains music by Dan Powell, Mariam Lozano, and Diane Wong.
《每日》节目到此结束。我是迈克尔·布巴罗。
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That's it for the Daily. I'm Michael Babaro.
明天见。
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See you tomorrow.